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Well, let's see. Assuming you manage to get max Vengeance on Laurent,

Laurent's Atk: 46(base) +4(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +8(pairup) +5(TF) +11(Celica's) +42(Vengeance) +2(tonic) =138

Lucina's Atk: 42(base) +1(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +5(TF) +11(Celica's) +2(tonic) =81

Vs Helswath Berserker (no Throne): 20+13+13+20+13+13 =92. No curbstomp. Sage Lucina could get a perfect (100 damage) ORKO, but you'd still need a near perfect Vengeance boost (Laurent would need to take 78+ damage).

It should work on everyone else (except Thronie, who'll need a poke), assuming you can get Vengeance up.

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Sounds like VV takes a lot of skill to use well, which I am lacking. I think I'll stick wirh RLM after all, and save VV for a later playthrough. Sorry for being so indecisive, and thanks for all the help. I just need to sort out the Sage x Sage Henry!Nah pairing now. They get one pair of Boots, the other going to Noire.

Nah can take Lonqu'qu!Brady or Morgan. I would rather not give her Libra!Owain because he barely misses the 69 Speed threshold.

I was thinking that Nah could run Vengeance so she can can lead after her husband activates Galeforce, making better use of Aggressor and getting some pretty good damage in. Would this be a good idea?

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For Henry!Nah, it's certainly an option (procs on hard supports are usually a waste of space, but since Nah doesn't have much better stuff to put there and she'll get a rear Agg boost from it)... As long as she's married to a Luna Galeboy (if the lead has vengeance she'll be redundant) it'll be fine.

I'd have her be a Valkyrie (LB/TF/Vengeance/Wrath/Anathema) because if you're going to go to the trouble of getting her hurt, she might as well make use of it when in the back (Wrath). Remember to forge her CGs with +9 crit. Valkyrie is sort of default for Henry!Nah because it's one of her main selling points due to boosting Spd as well as Mag.

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At first I was going to object to Valkyrie with "I thought you told me not to bother with 75 Speed on every pair" but then I realized it lets her reach 69 Speed while in front. That's a good idea. It frees up a pair of Boots too, though I'm not sure what to do with it. I guess I'll save it until I've cleared Apo a few times to decide.

I really like that crit build idea, thanks! She's more of her own unique unit this way rather than just an inferior version of the other magic girls.

Edited by isetrh
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Hey, in a no braves run, is 3-range bow access that useful in apotheosis? I'm considering making somebody a sniper, and Noire would be my first choice, but since my current plans involve Noire being paired up with Brady, and Sniper is a HORRIBLE pair-up partner for sage I'm pretty sure, I've been considering making Noire a bride with bowfaire or lancefaire instead, and having Lucina be the sniper paired up with the avatar. But either way, this hinges on having a sniper with 3-range bows being useful in a run precluding the use of braves. Is it?

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Yeah, what I meant about it being a horrible pair-up partner for a sage was that neither one is fast or boosts speed, and the offense boosts conflict too.

You're still hitting Res for full damage + procs from 3 range regardless. The same principal applies. They also boost each other's skill, which is the more important stat unless you are dodge tanking. Sniper x Sage still stands as a great pair but just for the Sniper. For Sage it is a bit iffier but Skl and Def compliment the Sage well.

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Donnel!Kjelle and Frederick!Inigo have so many options I'm not sure what to do with them. Both have Paladin, Hero, and Assassin, and Kjelle also has Wyvern Lord. Inigo has Swordfaire and Axefaire. Kjelle has Swordfaire and Lancefaire. They don't even need a mount between them since I have a spare pair of Boots. Ideas that have crossed my mind include double Assassin, Paladin and Assassin, Wyvern Lord and Hero, Hero and Assassin... None of them really stick out as better than the others though.

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Thanks. Why do they need 75 Speed though?

It's the threshold for doubling every enemy unit in the game, I believe.
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I guess so. I should have mentioned that my team already has plenty of units who can deal with those 70 Speed enemies. Noire, Brady, Morgan, Sumia, and Severa all hit 75 without any effort, so it doesn't make sense to me to sacrifice power for Speed on anyone else.

Laurent doesn't have anything all that amazing to inherit from his mom. Dual Support + is the best for Apo that he can't get by himself. I would have him inherit it, but probably never use it.

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So, I've been considering making a couple heavily defensive units.

I was considering pairing nawi with kellam, and then pairing nah with a defense + luck- avatar.

This would give me a 47 def 43 res Nah, + stone for a total of: Def +13, Res +9 yielding 60/52. Which is pretty good, I'm sure we've all done that. But then adding the avatar to the equation...

I would get morgan as a 51/45 base manakete, + stone for 13 def and 9 res.... would put him at 64/54...... Would anything actually be able to hurt her with melee?

Add in limit breaker... and she hits 74/64 (def / resist) but I don't know if that would even be necessary for melee? though I suppose being practically immune to magic wouldn't hurt either...

Edited by emmagine
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What are the best pairings for a Hard mode playthrough with no DLCs, no random battles, no second seals, gaiden done ASA they are unlocked?

Give Gregor to a kid you like who isn't Severa or Inigo. If you want to try to go for Galeforce Cordelia and Sumia can be good moms. It's hard to get Galeforce before the kids though, unless you recruit the kids really late or focus your experience into the Galeforce mom. I don't know if it would be worth it to have Donnel father someone to pass Aptitude down at the cost of being a bad pair-up for the mom and not boosting the kid's bases.

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