New tier list method

[Chiki]

But it's not just Nosferatu.

I'd have to tier every unit depending on the resources they get.

Depending on every single pairing.

Depending on every single item.

That'd be around 20 options per unit.

[Elieson]

Well we need some sort of criterium then, because tiering characters by "casual" standards isn't working if we assume that players are using strict forms of play style.

I mean, if you bought this game tomorrow, would your immediate Thoight for your first practice PLAYTHROUGH on hard mode be "ok my team should 7 Nosferatu tankers because what other way is there to play!"

[General Banzai]

Maybe we don't need a (rigid) criterion

Maybe strict adherence to criterion is fundamentally incongruent with the aims of a casual tier list

[Camilla]

Well we need some sort of criterium then, because tiering characters by "casual" standards isn't working if we assume that players are using strict forms of play style.

I mean, if you bought this game tomorrow, would your immediate Thoight for your first practice PLAYTHROUGH on hard mode be "ok my team should 7 Nosferatu tankers because what other way is there to play!"

If I were a beginner who needed a lot help with hard mode, I'd be taking this thread's advice for sure.

[Snowy_One]

Here is what I suggest for criteria. Well, they're more like rule-boundries... but still. Helpful.

1) All units will be tiered according to their average performance across all classes/reclasses/parentage. Exception: When a unit does so distinctly better/worse that they need to be ranked separately.

This would lead to 'Nosfertank Cordy' and 'Normal Cordy' being ranked as two different units for example (hypothetically. If they're different enough to deserve such a thing can be discussed later).

2) Units will play to their more-obvious paths and choices. This is meant for casual players, not people spending hours looking for optimization.

3) As to reclassing: A unit can reclass, but needing to reclass less to be optimal is ideal (In other words, a unit who is good in their default class and doesn't need to reclass is better than a unit who has to reclass to be good as reclassing costs time and resources as well as provides room for mess-ups)

4) Parents. Each child can be assumed to have their ideal parent without penalty. The only negative impacts as far as parentage is concerned is join time and the resulting stats/skills.

5) Glitter squares: Can NOT be dismissed (they're free EXP at the least) but, unless it is very likely/guaranteed to provide an item, is to be assumed to give EXP.

[Elieson]

And skirmishes?

[Snowy_One]

I can't really say on that one. My gut reaction is to consider them null and void, but we can't safely assume the player will avoid them in favor of pure story progression either. Maybe the 'best' answer is 'assume one skirmish every 2-3 chapters' or something. That way they are considered, but not dominate.

Also, parents support without regard to the child, but that should be obvious.

[Tables]

3, 4, 5, 6, 7, P1, P2 = 7 chapters.

7 x 27 = 189.

36 + 36 + 45 + 45 = 162.

Wait. Wait wait wait!!

189 - 27 = 162.

You only need 6 chapters to marry Sumia to Frederick.

Extremely unlikely my hat.

You have GOT to be trolling at this point. Trolling or you didn't even read my post AND don't understand how supports work AND are still trying to pretend you do when it's obvious you need to go any look the mechanic up. Like go and actually buy a copy of Awakening, then play it. You'll see that Sumia and Fred only reach A support and only just before chapter 7.

Oh actually I had another thought regarding Miriel vs. Tharja. Miriel can't even buy a Nosferatu before chapter 13. That means she isn't Nosferatanking before Tharja joins and takes her Nosferatu, and her use on the map before then is pretty limited - she's extremely squishy and I'm not hugely convinced her combat is going to be much better than, say, Virion. Probably a little better, since she'll probably double quicker. She also needs to get 9 levels before she can use a Second Seal (which is a valuable resource in itself). Tharja doesn't, and is pretty good right from the word go.

[CT075]

obviously spotpass mist is the best unit top of top tier 10/10 would tier again

[Chiki]

You have GOT to be trolling at this point. Trolling or you didn't even read my post AND don't understand how supports work AND are still trying to pretend you do when it's obvious you need to go any look the mechanic up. Like go and actually buy a copy of Awakening, then play it. You'll see that Sumia and Fred only reach A support and only just before chapter 7.Oh actually I had another thought regarding Miriel vs. Tharja. Miriel can't even buy a Nosferatu before chapter 13. That means she isn't Nosferatanking before Tharja joins and takes her Nosferatu, and her use on the map before then is pretty limited - she's extremely squishy and I'm not hugely convinced her combat is going to be much better than, say, Virion. Probably a little better, since she'll probably double quicker. She also needs to get 9 levels before she can use a Second Seal (which is a valuable resource in itself). Tharja doesn't, and is pretty good right from the word go.

I don't think you understand the issue at hand here. You clearly don't understand how the support mechanics work, either, because all you've been doing is give us numbers without providing us any explanations. I've already admitted that I don't know how supports work. There are two ways in which supports could work:

1. Numbers get reset to 0 after every support

2. Numbers don't get reset to 0 after every support

I assumed that premise 2 was true.

You don't really understand how supports work either, judging from the fact that you didn't really give me any explanation as to how they worked.

Judging from the fact that the user Sumia took until paralogue 3 to get an S support, premise 1 is true. Support points reset to 0 for every support.

But to be honest, a 20% dual strike chance makes no difference.

[Elieson]

I don't think you understand the issue at hand here. You clearly don't understand how the support mechanics work, either, because all you've been doing is give us numbers without providing us any explanations. I've already admitted that I don't know how supports work. There are two ways in which supports could work:

1. Numbers get reset to 0 after every support

2. Numbers don't get reset to 0 after every support

I assumed that premise 2 was true.

You don't really understand how supports work either, judging from the fact that you didn't really give me any explanation as to how they worked.

Judging from the fact that the user Sumia took until paralogue 3 to get an S support, premise 1 is true. Support points reset to 0 for every support.

But to be honest, a 20% dual strike chance makes no difference.

Then why are people fapping over dual guard+ when it's only a 10% boost?

[Tables]

I don't think you understand the issue at hand here. You clearly don't understand how the support mechanics work, either, because all you've been doing is give us numbers without providing us any explanations. I've already admitted that I don't know how supports work. There are two ways in which supports could work:

1. Numbers get reset to 0 after every support

2. Numbers don't get reset to 0 after every support

I assumed that premise 2 was true.

You don't really understand how supports work either, judging from the fact that you didn't really give me any explanation as to how they worked.

Judging from the fact that the user Sumia took until paralogue 3 to get an S support, premise 1 is true. Support points reset to 0 for every support.

But to be honest, a 20% dual strike chance makes no difference.

So I don't understand because I didn't explain something everyone else in the thread seems to understand and is explained on the main site? Congratulations, you just earned a one way ticket onto my ignore list. I don't deal with trolls.

[Chiki]

Not once did you even explain how support points were added up. So I really don't know how it's trolling to not know how support points are added up.

http://serenesforest.net/fe13/support.html

I just skimmed the entire page and nothing is mentioned about how support points are added up. I went with a very natural assumption and I don't see how that's trolling at all.

Seriously, stop acting so butthurt and try to contribute to the discussion at hand. You were interested in the criteria at first as well. I'm trying out some new things here and it would be good if you stopped being so sensitive. Your ideas are worthwhile.

It's worth noting that you can get a Seed of Trust from Renown, which makes marrying Frederick possible in 7 chapters.

[Elieson]

Not once did you even explain how support points were added up. So I really don't know how it's trolling to not know how support points are added up.

http://serenesforest.net/fe13/support.html

I just skimmed the entire page and nothing is mentioned about how support points are added up. I went with a very natural assumption and I don't see how that's trolling at all.

Seriously, stop acting so butthurt and try to contribute to the discussion at hand. You were interested in the criteria at first as well. I'm trying out some new things here and it would be good if you stopped being so sensitive. Your ideas are worthwhile.

It's worth noting that you can get a Seed of Trust from Renown, which makes marrying Frederick possible in 7 chapters.

It's worth noting that you need 210 points of Renown to even get the Seed of Trust, something that new players very likely won't have on their first file.

[Nobody]

From my experience, it seems like you can't build a support level in only one chapter, unless you use a seed of trust. Which means that you need at least two fights to get a C support, two to get a B support, two to get an A and two to get a S. That said, this is something I've experience, but I'm not sure about it.

[Dark Sage]

Some of you people are seriously retarded. Sumia apparently needs Fredrick to function? lmao motherfuckers. Sumia can support Sully as well and can basically imitiate the Cordelia/Stahl combo with her. Sumia can also still pair up with people she can't support with too; for example, she likes Kellam's bonuses a lot, even if she can't get any ranks with him. Yeah, it's not optimal but c'mon.

[Nobody]

Some of you people are seriously retarded. Sumia apparently needs Fredrick to function? lmao motherfuckers. Sumia can support Sully as well and can basically imitiate the Cordelia/Stahl combo with her. Sumia can also still pair up with people she can't support with too; for example, she likes Kellam's bonuses a lot, even if she can't get any ranks with him. Yeah, it's not optimal but c'mon.

I agree with you about Sumia being able to work decently with Sully, but seriosly, calling people retarded over such a trivial thing? I don't think that's good for this topic

Edited September 15, 2013 by Nobody

[Chiki]

Some of you people are seriously retarded. Sumia apparently needs Fredrick to function? lmao motherfuckers. Sumia can support Sully as well and can basically imitiate the Cordelia/Stahl combo with her. Sumia can also still pair up with people she can't support with too; for example, she likes Kellam's bonuses a lot, even if she can't get any ranks with him. Yeah, it's not optimal but c'mon.

It's funny to see you talk about intelligence when you can't even comprehend this basic fact: when we say "needs to function," we don't literally mean Sumia can't function without Frederick. Sumia can even function without a pair up, since she can just get some cheap kills on weakened enemies. Sumia doesn't literally need anyone to function. We didn't mean that she literally needed Frederick. She just would really really like him.

So when we say "x needs y to function" we don't literally mean "x cannot function without y." We mean "x would really love y as x functions." Is that clear enough for you? It seems that everyone else was smart enough to comprehend this simple fact, so I figured you might need some help understanding it.

Back on topic. What do you guys think about Tiki's position? Should she go over Panne or Stahl?

Edited September 15, 2013 by Celes

[Dark Sage]

It's funny to see you talk about intelligence when you can't even comprehend this basic fact: when we say "needs to function," we don't literally mean Sumia can't function without Frederick. Sumia can even function without a pair up, since she can just get some cheap kills on weakened enemies. Sumia doesn't literally need anyone to function. We didn't mean that she literally needed Frederick. She just would really really like him.

So when we say "x needs y to function" we don't literally mean "x cannot function without y." We mean "x would really love y as x functions." Is that clear enough for you? It seems that everyone else was smart enough to comprehend this simple fact, so I figured you might need some help understanding it.

Back on topic. What do you guys think about Tiki's position? Should she go over Panne or Stahl?

my my you are very pedantic and also you are missing the point.

i am aware that people are not saying that she is literally unusable without Fredrick. However, certain posters seem to imply that she needs Fredrick to have any sort of noteworthy advantage over Cordelia and without it, it's not a contest. The point is, Sumia is generally more flexible than people give her credit for. The opportunity cost for Fredrick support is too high? Ok, she can support with Sully then, who is much less in demand and still gives her the stats she wants. Generally speaking the Fredrick support is not that big a deal and it is disingenous to claim that she needs Fredrick to be in the same ballpark as Cordelia (which PKL and RFoF have pretty much said by the way).

I don't know about you but I find it funny that I'm receiving a condescending lecture about how much of a dumbshit I am taking someone literally (which I'm wasn't btw) because the person lecturing me is taking me too literally.

I agree with you about Sumia being able to work decently with Sully, but seriosly, calling people retarded over such a trivial thing? I don't think that's good for this topic

I admit that I shouldn't have insulted people but if anything is bad for this topic it's stuff like refusing to take someone seriously for using averages or making underhanded comments claiming that their arguments are truth and making underhanded comments about the person running the list, both of which has happened.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Jack Frost

[Chiki]

my my you are very pedantic and also you are missing the point.i am aware that people are not saying that she is literally unusable without Fredrick. However, certain posters seem to imply that she needs Fredrick to have any sort of noteworthy advantage over Cordelia and without it, it's not a contest. The point is, Sumia is generally more flexible than people give her credit for. The opportunity cost for Fredrick support is too high? Ok, she can support with Sully then, who is much less in demand and still gives her the stats she wants. Generally speaking the Fredrick support is not that big a deal and it is disingenous to claim that she needs Fredrick to be in the same ballpark as Cordelia (which PKL and RFoF have pretty much said by the way).I don't know about you but I find it funny that I'm receiving a condescending lecture about how much of a dumbshit I am taking someone literally (which I'm wasn't btw) because the person lecturing me is taking me too literally.I admit that I shouldn't have insulted people but if anything is bad for this topic it's stuff like refusing to take someone seriously for using averages or making underhanded comments claiming that their arguments are truth and making underhanded comments about the person running the list, both of which has happened.

Sully gives Sumia 2 less attack, def and a 20% less dual strike chance. She gives the same bonuses as Stahl does but without the 20% dual strike chance. Forgive me if I think your idea is not even worth considering.

[Dark Sage]

I'm pretty sure that Sully still gives the 20% Dual Strike activation rate to Sumia as well because remember, Sully is on Sumia's support list. It doesn't reach S rank, but she can probably get an A with her. Sully could appreciate the extra speed too in various circumstances.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Jack Frost

[The Fush]

Miriel is definetely up there, but I think Henry and Tharja have their specific problems; Tharja's very low starting skill can make it harder to land hits with dark tomes (which have low hit to begin with) , which is especially important with Nosferatu, and Henry's speed can mean that faster units can double him and put him in danger even when nosferatanking (and also brings up the issue of him not doubling).

Miriel's fine because she has neither of these problems as a dark mage (the only consideration being her rather low defenses).

Everything else I can't say because I suck at this game :C

[General Banzai]

As much as I love Henry, I have to agree he shouldn't be where he is. 9 base speed on Ch 12 is just not cutting it for him.

[Tables]

I'm pretty sure that Sully still gives the 20% Dual Strike activation rate to Sumia as well because remember, Sully is on Sumia's support list. It doesn't reach S rank, but she can probably get an A with her. Sully could appreciate the extra speed too in various circumstances.

Sully only reaches A rank supports, which is 50% DS, 7% DG and class bonuses +2. S rank gives 10% more DS and 3% more DG, which is a pretty big bonus. Not huge, but definitely noticable when DSs basically double your offence on a hit.

Miriel is definetely up there, but I think Henry and Tharja have their specific problems; Tharja's very low starting skill can make it harder to land hits with dark tomes (which have low hit to begin with) , which is especially important with Nosferatu

Tharja + Nosferatu without a support has 74% base hit with Nosferatu, which doesn't sound very good until you factor in:

Hex+Anathemia means enemies lose 25 avoid at one range (which is most enemies - and notably Myrmidons, the most dodgy enemies are almost exclusively 1 range) and 10 hit at two range

Support gives at minimum +10% hit, and likely more if they give +SKL/+LUK at all

Skills like Charm and the like which allies have will be boosting her hit further - and there's not much reason to think Tharja's going to need to be outside of Chrom's range especially often when we don't care much for turncounts.

I don't have enemy avoid data on Hard for chapter 10-11ish, but if memory serves there's not really many high avoid enemies in those chapters, and indeed there's Lunatic data available for chapter 10 and skimming that, enemy avoid appears to be in the 24-30 range, meaning 0-5 avoid at 1 range and 14-20 avoid at 2 range, which means Tharja's hit there is mostly in the 85%+ range at 1 range (+10% hit support, +5% hit charm, +1-2 skl/luck from support if not more) and 70%+ at two range. That's not perfect, but that's also on Lunatic. On hard, I think that's going to mostly be about 5% higher at least, which is mostly good enough as she's also going to grow pretty quickly.

[Constable Reggie]

Hex+Anathemia means enemies lose 25 avoid at one range (which is most enemies - and notably Myrmidons, the most dodgy enemies are almost exclusively 1 range) and 10 hit at two range

Both of them can't be active at the same time, so it's only 15 at one range