New tier list method

[Elieson]

Babying Donnel to D lances in his Paralogue is more difficult than not doing that, and every choke point in Ch 6 is attacked by at least two dark mages who can ORKO Donnel, and since enemy AI isn't dumb in this game like they are in the GBA FEs, those dark mages will make a beeline first thing for Donnel if they see his soft, squishy body standing behind megahunk!Fred.

ok lets assume you let donny get full chip on two archers and let him kill a thief. He can easily hit Lv2 by killing enemies at the start, as proven by LTC, so he should be able to hit lv 4 with semi-intelligent effort.

By now you have Maribelle and Lissa who both give Res to The Don, so a pairUp with one of them at the choke point with any other supporters standing adjacent to him will give him a chance at dodging (albeit not the best) and survivability of at least one hit. He isn't being ORKO'd by the 13 attack DMs with their pitiful speed. Plus, Thief AI is dumb, and there's no ranged melee in the entire battle to worry about, so if you absolutely need to Bait and Switch so Miriel can kill the DMs, have at it. 2 - 3 levels should be fine for here.

Paralogue 2 requires you go fast because Anna will eventually get chipped down by the archers even in Hard, meaning the only real choke point is the bridge on the bottom part of the map, where a measly four enemies (including the boss) wait. And that choke point can't even be choked because the boss can walk across rivers, meaning if Donnel's there he's gonna get fucked, which is a recurring pattern in the short life of Donnel.

Boss doesn't Aggro immediately, and it's not implied that Donny is killing everything, just chipping things across the bridge. Flying Sumia (possibly Cordelia) up then at an angle across the river with a unit in tow is the reliable way to reach Anna while she protects the village, so The Don can still roll chips on enemy axes. Or just kill the boss, because it's Rout anyway. 1 level min here

Paralogue 3 is a classic wave 1-rest-wave 2 setup. Even if you don't give a fuck about getting the arm scroll from the chest (and arm scroll that Donnel would coincidentally want very very much), you still have to do wave 1 fast or else Anna runs up the middle of the map and can potentially meander her way into the range of the boss. And wave 2 is accompanied yet again by the boss moving, and since the boss has a tomahawk, Donnel can't freely stand behind armor-plated Frederick for free Javelin chunks.

And it's hard to control Anna how exactly? This Rout chapter doesn't need Donny to kill everything, and there's choke points everywhere. If you're having difficulty with him chucking Javelins/nabbing a kill here and there wth even the Cheaptastic Bronze Forge+Str Tonic+Vaike PairUp, you're not chipping anything and making Donny leveling harder on yourself. 2 levels here minimum

And let's keep going. Chapter 7 has no choke points and you are beset on all sides by wyverns that aggressively pursue you, including the boss.

Conceded

Chapter 8 is a class wave-rest-wave chapter, where you can effectively choke regular units due to the sand but not the fairly large number of mages who attack from all sides of the start.

choke choke and choke. Let him get a boss kill if you want. He can net a kill on the NE mage at bare minimum, plus an enemy by the western village, plus an easy as fuck bosskill.

Chapter 9 has your flank get swarmed by wyverns and no choke points on top of a wave-rest-wave setup.

By now, Donny should either be, or be close to, using a SS. Give him a sword, let him kill the wyvern flank and watch easy mode begin

Chapter 10 requires you move fast to get swag loot from thieves (including a crest and a speedwing, two items probably more valuable than anything donnel will ever do for me), as well as bunches of wyverns. Hell, "bunches of wyverns" describes almost every chapter in the game after Donnel joins.

Ok, so Wyverms fly to you, post Turn 3 and there's various enemies at the north choke that he can realistically net a kill on

Nowhere is there an easy place for Donnel to get exp, except for his first Paralogue where there are a couple of archers that one can lure out one by one, then surround, and then let donnel poke 20 times to kill.

and skirmishes which I guess don't matter anymore .

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Okay holy jesus how does Sumia have S Fred support by the time Cordelia joins, that sounds ridiculous

Secondly, Cordelia can pair with Frederick too, why are we assuming he automatically goes to Sumia

EDIT: A support is actually easy to get for Sumia. Chrom x Sumia can easilly get S though

Edited September 14, 2013 by JSND

[Elieson]

Sumia Marries Fred, rolls Dark Flier for Henry support, recruits Cynthia, and Cynthia!Fred + Henry!Sumia pairUp for rest of the game.

Isn't that the theorymon?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Obviously she is not doing all of them >_>

Sumia rolls Dark Flier -> Marry Fred -> Fred use Hammer/BK/AK/WHATEVER forge for the rest of the game

[General Banzai]

Elieson, even if we do everything in your post (I smirk at the assessment that LTC has proven it is "easy" for Donnel to kill enemies at the start), we're still going to have an underleveled, relatively weak unit compared to the rest of our team, and he'll remain so for how long? When Donnel has spent 33% - 50% of his existence being a liability, how can any lategame ability make up for that?

[General Horace]

Why would a 20/8 Cordelia be considered with no supports while Sumia gets to have Fred S? At jointime, yes, Cordelia doesn't have supports, but by 20/8 There should be at least a B or something built up if not A or S.

I haven't used either enough to really talk about them, but I feel comparing an S support Sumia with a no support Cordelia at a high enough level where both would realistically have some supports built up given being in use is unfair.

I forgot to include an S stahl Support

its factored in the calculations

[Thor Odinson]

Fair enough.

[PKL]

20/10 Sumia with S Fred

Bases: 18 hp 6 Str 3 Mag 11 Skl 11+2 Spd 8 Lck 5 Def 7 Res Lance D

Growths: 75% hp 45% Str 25% Mag 70% Skl 70% Spd 60% Lck 30% Def 40% Res

+ stats from levels gained: 21 hp 12.6 str 7 mag 19.6 Skl 19.6 Spd 16.8 Lck 8.4 Def 11.2 Res

+ Dark Flier promo: +3 hp +1 str +4 Mag +1 Skl +2 Spd +1 Def + 3 Res Tome E

= 42 HP 19.6 Str 14 Mag 31.6 Skl 32.6+2 Spd 24.8 Lck 14.4 Def 21.2 Res

+ Frederick S Support (+6 Str +1 Skl +1 Spd +6 Def +1 move)

42 HP

25.6 Str

14 Mag

32.6 Skl

33.6+2 Spd

24.8 Lck

20.4 Def

21.2 Res

Now let's see Cordelia:

20/10 with S Stahl

I chose the same level because 20/8 is leaning towards Sumia favoritism. In reality I think a full team trained Sumia will be at the same level or 1 more level than Cordelia by the time she joins. Otherwise you are crossing favoritism territory and feeding all the kills to her and none to Fred. Which is unrealistic considering a switch to Fred can be nice from time to time given Sumia's spd pair up and his better durability.

Bases: 25 HP 9 Str 3 Mag 13 Skl 12+2 Spd 9 Lck 8 Def 8 Res Lance C

Growths: 90% HP 60% Str 20% Mag 60% Skl 60% Spd 45% Lck 45% Def 35% Res

+stats from levels gained: 19.8 HP 13.2 Str 4.4 Mag 13.2 Skl 13.2 Spd 9.9 Lck 9.9 Def 7.7 Res

+Dark Flier promo: +3 HP +1 Str +4 Mag +1 Skl +2 Spd +1 Def +3 Res Tome E

= 47.8 HP 23.2 Str 11.4 Mag 27.2 Skl 27.2+2 18.9 Lck 18.9 Def 18.7 Res

+Stahl S Support (+6 Str +5 Skl +5 Spd +6 Def)

47.8 HP > 42 HP

29.2 Str > 25.6 Str

11.4 Mag < 14 Mag

32.2 Skl < 32.6 Skl

32.2+2 Spd < 33.6+2 Spd

18.9 Lck < 24.8 Lck

24.9 Def > 20.4 Def

18.7 Res < 21.2 Res

So Cordelia is beating Sumia in Str Def and HP and is about tied with Sumia in Spd.

If they receive an Energy Drop, a Dracoshield and a Seraph Robe, as well their tonics:

52.8 HP > 47 HP

33.2 Str > 29.6 Str

11.4 Mag < 14 Mag

32.2 Skl < 32.6 Skl

34.2+2 Spd < 35.6+2 Spd

18.9 Lck < 24.8 Lck

28.9 Def > 24.4 Def

18.7 Res < 21.2 Res

With a Javelin and A Lances their Atk is 37 Atk and 33 respectively.

Cordelia can also pull off Dark Mage decently well. Which means Nosferatu and in this tier list, Nosferatu is literally the easiest way to play the game. She doesn't even make the game harder by demanding training when in Dark Mage because she actually has nice stats barring the Tome rank. A Spirit Dusted base Mag Spd Tonic Cordelia with a Mag pair up can ORKO enemies in C10 with Flux last time I used her. Her mag growth is a bit on the bad side I think, but it's sufficient due to how many things you can do to fix offensive issues in this game. Don't forget Nosferatu can even be forged and in turnless we're gonna have money forever. Not to mention, there's a few Spirit Dusts around in this game. She can also pull off Merc, possibly easier than Dark Mage because she's more physically oriented and that gives Sol, which makes the game easier. Training her in that isnt even hard either because of her already solid stats.

Horace and Celes also underestimate Cordelia's base stats. At base in her next chapter: Paralogue 3, she can take down the archer in the mountains and kill the fighter in the same turn. She can also survive and 2HKO the pegs for some quick exp. 2 levels for her in that map isn't exactly hard to do tbh. In turnless, Ive gotten her 4 levels and in a 3 turn I've gotten her 2 levels while she also contributed.

Let's not forget that she has versatility going for her too. She can pair with Kellam for THWOMP. She can pair with Ricken if going the Dark Mage route to fix her mag. She can pair with Stahl for massive Str skl Spd def boosts. She can pair with Sumia's beloved Frederick for the same boosts Sumia receives, etc.

She has a lot of options. Sumia on the other hand, REQUIRES Frederick to be trained, which isnt even guaranteed to happen in a turnless environment. Other people want Fred in turnless, including but not limited to: Chrom, Miriel, Sully, Virion. Her other support options, barring a reclassed Cavalier Chrom, are all pretty bad and dont fix her defensive issues.

So, uh, how is Sumia>Cordelia in this tier list again? The possibility of Nosferatu alone should put her above Sumia.

Edited September 14, 2013 by PKL

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

This is the part where I become dumb and suggest Knight Sumia

[Tables]

Sumia actually beats Cordelia in both durability and combat because Sumia has time to get S Frederick by the time Cordelia joins.

This has already been addressed, but S Fred isn't happening. It takes 2 chapters per support level in almost all cases, this being one of them. Chapter 3, 4, 5, 6 and Side Story 1, 2. That's 6 chapters. The only way they could get anything above A is if you were lucky enough to get and use SoTs on them, or get a +support event tile on chapter 3 and chapter 5 (yes, and. Not or. I suppose you could substitute a SoT for one of them though).

Also I see a lot of assumption that Sumia is just supporting Fred and Cordelia is just supporting Stahl. Those seem like slightly odd assumptions to be making. Like, Fred is pretty believable - he requires no training to just sit behind Sumia for the entire game, and while his boosts are meh late, Sumia not needing or wanting to ever switch is good for her EXP wise anyway. But Stahl for Cordelia? If I want him to do anything I'm going to need to funnel at least a reasonable amount of EXP to him to get him to 10/1, or I might just go for someone else I'm training so I can also get a decent Severa (and of course, the same could be said for Fred). Sumia x Fred makes sense for chapters 3-5 where nobody else benefits as much from him as Sumia, but from then on I would likely prefer to switch their partner for someone who can start producing a better kid, which means first and foremost, someone with better stats.

[PKL]

Stahl is a pretty solid unit though. Despite his spd problems. I guess it's true in a way but having a good Stahl + a good Cordelia is actually pretty cool as I demonstrated in one of my playlogs. Stahl can get to like Level 12 before Cordelia joins without favoritism (although he wants Kellam to be deployed I guess which is bad) a switch in from Cordelia to Stahl can be pretty powerful at taking down bow users that threaten her and he gives her massive bonuses she wants, makes a good Severa and Cordelia also provides him with bonuses he wants (spd and res).

EDIT: Sorry if my post is constructed weirdly. I sometimes have poor english grammar due to english not being my main.

Edited September 14, 2013 by PKL

[Nobody]

Sumia being way ahead of cordelia when she joins is not favoritism. She a flier, has pretty good bases for the level she joins and there is chapter 5, where she will get many kills, since everyone else will have a hard time reaching the enemies. And then there's chapter 7, where only she can reach the wyverns.

[Elieson]

Elieson, even if we do everything in your post (I smirk at the assessment that LTC has proven it is "easy" for Donnel to kill enemies at the start), we're still going to have an underleveled, relatively weak unit compared to the rest of our team, and he'll remain so for how long? When Donnel has spent 33% - 50% of his existence being a liability, how can any lategame ability make up for that?

23 chapters and 23 paralogues = 46 map-based battles excluding skirmishes. I just outlined a plan to have him promoted after what, 7 battles? You can recruit the guy before you even attempt chapter 4, meaning he misses out on 3 chapters and the Prologue. Str/Def tonics are buyable before his paralogue even appears, and although limited, you can forge him a +1/+2MT Bronze Lance.

That gives Donny a base 4 Str +2 (Tonic) + we'll say +4 (from a +1 MT Bronze Lance Forge), equaling 10 ATK. Sully Pairup gives him enough speed to avoid being doubled by anything not Thief, and gives him at minimum, +2 Str for 12 attack (or we could go Vaike for a harder hit if you want). He'll have his base lance to poke archers with too. Killing the Thief (easy on EP1) and the Archer give Donny one level right at the start. Even while taking your time, you can still get the Killer Lance and Rescue, and his 12 attack is increasing to at least 13, if not 14, (meanwhile his speed it hitting 4.4/5.1, putting him at a point of avoiding getting doubled by most enemies with any form of pairup) by chapter's end.

He needs 9 levels before SS'ing and comparing to your team (which is likely doing just fine at worst), and can get at least 2 in his opening chapter alone. It doesn't take much effort to get him these two levels, it really doesn't.

When he hits lv 10 and takes a second seal, he has 9.3 speed, and a reclass to Merc bumps him up to 15.3. With an assumed 21 luck, he's got 33 avoid, plus Patience, with a Bronze Sword at 10/1, in the Axe Land that is Plegia. He also experiences a growth change, and suddenly has:

• higher Def growth then everyone except Kellam
• Higher Str and Spd growth everybody
• Gaurenteed +1 HP per level minimum

Give him Frederick Pairup for 1 chapter, after he SS's, and watch his growths kick in.

May I ask if you've ever even tried using Donnel in a non-rush scenario? It really isn't that hard to get him up to speed in a Turnless Limit scenario. Yes he's weaker than the rest of your team, even if everyone else is kept at base, but there's so many ways to bump him up to servicable within 1-2 battles, and reclass after 7/46 battles into a competant unit

[Blademaster!]

This is a really weird list criteria... I'd say Nowi > Tharja/Henry(not sure about Miriel) in hard because she has a much faster rate of exp gain and support with Gregor, more movement, and is still pretty invincible in HM. Tiki is also pretty invincible in HM once she joins, and Nah can be in a similar position if Nowi got enough exp(which she can easily do), not to mention you can't buy Nosferatu until you've beaten chapter 13, and if we're allowing spotpass to get it earlier that just makes Nowi even better with buyable DS+.

[General Banzai]

Any amount of resources we dump into Donnel we can also dump into anyone else and make them simply overpowered from the getgo. If we can load up all these things onto Donnel to get him to promote ASAP we can do the same for another character who doesn't start out atrocious and have them simply ride the extreme level advantage they have unto infinity. Donnel has undeniably the worst "suck zone" of the game, and turning him into a competent unit with shitty weapon levels who will eventually become a good unit by lategame just isn't worth it

Your assessment that he should be placed right below Nowi in one of your original posts only highlights the ridiculousness of this. Nowi starts several times stronger, several times better defended, with permanent 1-2 range and increased exp gain as well as +1 movement, as well as with a pairup partner who was basically tailormade for her (Gregor). Donnel does not even compare to Nowi in any regard.

If we're giving Donnel forges, potions, specific character pairups (now Donnel gets Fred, even for only a chapter? I thought we were slapping Fred on Sumia), we can put those on anyone and have less of a problem training them.

Meanwhile, since Stahl is getting brought up, what happened to my post on Tiki > Stahl and Panne? Did that just get ignored or something

[Florete]

Sumia being way ahead of cordelia when she joins is not favoritism. She a flier, has pretty good bases for the level she joins and there is chapter 5, where she will get many kills, since everyone else will have a hard time reaching the enemies. And then there's chapter 7, where only she can reach the wyverns.

She'll die on Ch 5 if you try sending her off alone to kill enemies (yes, that's what you're suggesting). Helping to save Maribelle and Ricken is her only claim to fame there.

I'm pretty sure even the fastest clear of Ch 7 doesn't require a flier since it's easy to draw the enemy wyverns to land.

[Chiki]

It is often very conveniently ignored by Cordelia fans that Sumia has a 7 (assuming Cordelia can't contribute much in Chapter 7, which she can't since it's such an easy and short map) chapter advantage over Cordelia.

If Sumia kills 10 units in 30 chapters and Cordelia kills 10 units in 23 chapters, then Sumia has a 70 enemy advantage over Cordelia. Sumia has a 70 kill advantage over Cordelia, simply because she has a lot more chances to contribute than Cordelia does. Availability is very important in this case, because Sumia has a 7 chapter advantage over Cordelia: she has more combat potential over 7 chapters. Cordelia has 0 combat potential in those seven chapters.

Neither are in the "suck zone" as General Banzai eloquently put it. Sumia can kick plenty of ass with some tonics, forges and a Frederick support--this is hard mode, not lunatic. Sumia does fantastically, as does Cordelia. Both are very good fliers that are never in the suck zone. So availability is not a disadvantage for either of them.

Furthermore, it is also very conveniently ignored by Cordelia fans that Sumia contributes in more rout maps than Cordelia does. Rout maps matter more because you need to kill everything, so it almost follows by definition that combat potential is more important in rout maps. Combat potential is not that important in boss maps because you don't need to kill everything if you don't want to. But rout maps force you to do so.

6 maps (that includes Paralogues) is not enough time for an S rank unless you assume map grinding

Poor understanding of the support system here. You can get 27 support points per map, and it's very easy to do so. You get around 6 support points per fight, so you only need seven (?) fights to get the maximum amount of support points possible. It's trivial to do that in every chapter--even in Chapter 4. And of course, there's the chance of activating Dual Strike or Guard, which is +2 points per strike or guard. So in practice it should be around 5 or 6 battles to get the necessary support points every map.

Also, is it really 6 maps? You have 3, 4, 5, 6, P1, P2 and 7--I'm including 7 here because Cordelia honestly doesn't have much time to contribute in such a short and easy chapter--so it's more like 7 maps as opposed to 6. If you have 7 maps to contribute, you gain 27 x 7 = 189 support points in 7 maps. How much support points do you need to get an S support? Well, it's not clear how much. But maybe we can get an idea of how many support points are required by looking at the number of points Chrom's pairings require. We can get a general idea of what is needed, since there's no reason to believe that Sumia x Frederick is gonna be something like 1000 support points, or something else that's completely different from Chrom's supports. Chrom x Sumia requires 126, Chrom x Sully and Maribelle requires 144 and Chrom x Avatar requires 162.

But wait! You gain 189 support points in 7 maps. That's a lot more than 162, which is the highest of Chrom's supports. I see no reason to believe that Sumia x Frederick is substantially higher than 162. Sumia x Frederick is much more likely to be similar to one of Chrom's supports in terms of difficulty in getting them to support. There's no reason to believe that Sumia x Frederick is gonna somehow be 300 support points for some reason. So I conclude that Sumia x Frederick can indeed get S support by Chapter 8, unless it is indeed true that Sumia x Frederick require more than 189 support points.

But what if Sumia can't marry Frederick? What then? Is Sumia screwed compared to Cordelia? Not at all. S support provides no additional stats compared to A support: it's just an additional +20% chance to Dual Strike. The enemies in Hard Mode really aren't that strong anyway: Sumia's offenses are formidable enough as it is. So not much performance is compromised even if Sumia can't get S support with Frederick.

So I conclude that Sumia can probably marry Frederick by Chapter 8. I also conclude that the difference between A and S support is not that great anyway, so I have all my bases covered. Sumia is better than Cordelia at base no matter what way you look at it.

Cordelia has +3 Str at base over Sumia and +15% growth. Sumia will, at best, have caught up to that when Cordelia joins, but Cordelia will only pull ahead as time goes on.

This is false. Let us assume that Sumia has the same strength as Cordelia by Chapter 8. You have already acknowledged this in that quote, so I don't think that there is any issue for me to assume this. Assuming Cordelia pairs up with Stahl and Sumia is married or has A support with Frederick, Sumia has a +3 strength bonus over Cordelia at Chapter 8. If Stahl has higher than 9 strength, the difference is +2 in Sumia's favor instead. Sumia also has a +3 or +2 defense bonus over Cordelia when both show up in Chapter 8.

I conclude that Sumia is undeniably better than Cordelia by the time they both are around at the start of Chapter 8. This lead is going to continue for a long time.

Sumia on the other hand, REQUIRES Frederick to be trained,

The tier list assumes optimal resource distribution, so this is not a penalty for Sumia.

[General Banzai]

It is often very conveniently ignored by Cordelia fans that

Whoa whoa whoa

Don't make this about "Cordelia fans"

I don't give one whit about Cordelia as a character I just think that she's objectively a better unit than Sumia

If Sumia kills 10 units in 30 chapters and Cordelia kills 10 units in 23 chapters, then Sumia has a 70 enemy advantage over Cordelia. Sumia has a 70 kill advantage over Cordelia, simply because she has a lot more chances to contribute than Cordelia does. Availability is very important in this case, because Sumia has a 7 chapter advantage over Cordelia: she has more combat potential over 7 chapters. Cordelia has 0 combat potential in those seven chapters.

Except that's not how it works. I don't even think there are 10 enemies in Chapter 4, and Sumia sure as hell isn't killing all of them. Sumia certainly is too weak in Ch 3 and 5 to be killing significant numbers of enemies there. The same goes for Cordelia, she's not killing 10 enemies in her join. I know you used 10 as just an example number and not saying "this is how many will die", but your assumption that a unit is of equivalent use in every chapter they're in is completely false.

Sumia does not have a 70 kill advantage over Cordelia early on, that's just utter nonsense. For most of those 7 chapters she joins before Cordelia she's in her own "suck zone" where she requires resource consumption (namely, Fred) to get shit done, and even then she gets that shit done suboptimally. Even if Cordelia joins around the same combat potential as Sumia (or even slightly less), we have to take into account that Sumia was a liability most of the time she was getting to that equivalent/slightly better combat potential that Cordelia has when she joins. Hence, Cordelia has a much less pronounced "suck zone" and is a liability for a far less amount of time that Sumia is.

On top of that, in later chapters, entire sections of the map are no-fly zones because of forged silver bow/forged Rexcalibur enemies that can OHKO pegs. No flier is going to be particularly useful on, say, Chapter 19 because it's difficult for them to find places on the map where they can freely fight without being exposed to one of those dangers. This is where the fact that Cordelia has actual nonshit class change options gives her combat advantages over Sumia. Saying that in Chapter 19 Cordelia and Sumia are both getting 10, or 8, or whatever kills is a misrepresentation of events because on this chapter Cordelia's class options mean she is able to contribute more than Sumia is.

Also, is it really 6 maps? You have 3, 4, 5, 6, P1, P2 and 7--I'm including 7 here because Cordelia honestly doesn't have much time to contribute in such a short and easy chapter--so it's more like 7 maps as opposed to 6.

Stop counting Chapter 4 as though Sumia has any reason to be there at all, or is even likely to be there thanks to the low unit count

The tier list assumes optimal resource distribution, so this is not a penalty for Sumia.

This tier list is for new players, it shouldn't assume optimal anything

[ZemZem]

Stop counting Chapter 4 as though Sumia has any reason to be there at all, or is even likely to be there thanks to the low unit count

Why wouldn't you deploy Sumia in Chapter 4.

[Florete]

It is often very conveniently ignored by Cordelia fans that Sumia has a 7 (assuming Cordelia can't contribute much in Chapter 7, which she can't since it's such an easy and short map) chapter advantage over Cordelia.

This isn't ignored at all, you're just treating it as more than it is actually worth. Given the likely goals of this list, the availability advantage should be next to meaningless as there is still ~3/4 of the game left to go.

Neither are in the "suck zone" as General Banzai eloquently put it. Sumia can kick plenty of ass with some tonics, forges and a Frederick support--this is hard mode, not lunatic. Sumia does fantastically, as does Cordelia. Both are very good fliers that are never in the suck zone. So availability is not a disadvantage for either of them.

There are Archers to both sides in her joining chapter, Archers scattered in Paralogues 1 and 2, Fighters and Knights in Ch 4, And Wyverns in Ch 5 and Ch 7. There's a lot for her to look out for. "Fantastic" she is not, though I wouldn't put her in "suck zone" either.

Poor understanding of the support system here. You can get 27 support points per map, and it's very easy to do so. You get around 6 support points per fight, so you only need seven (?) fights to get the maximum amount of support points possible. It's trivial to do that in every chapter--even in Chapter 4. And of course, there's the chance of activating Dual Strike or Guard, which is +2 points per strike or guard. So in practice it should be around 5 or 6 battles to get the necessary support points every map.

Clearly you're the one with a poor understanding of the support system. Forget support points, just playing the game and getting supports one can easily observe that you'll never advance a single pair's support two maps in a row. If we assume Sumia and Fred can get C immediately and the rest asap, they need 7 maps in total to reach S. But you also need to consider that they are not the only ones fighting, they may not always be paired up (Frederick might want others earlier on), and Sumia might not even get a slot in Ch 4.

So I conclude that Sumia can probably marry Frederick by Chapter 8. I also conclude that the difference between A and S support is not that great anyway, so I have all my bases covered. Sumia is better than Cordelia at base no matter what way you look at it.

So with her specifically required support partner and for a map or two after Cordelia joins, Sumia wins, slightly. Then Cordelia levels and gets her support and just continues to thwomp Sumia for the rest of the game. How is Sumia better given the purpose of this tier list?

This is false. Let us assume that Sumia has the same strength as Cordelia by Chapter 8. You have already acknowledged this in that quote, so I don't think that there is any issue for me to assume this. Assuming Cordelia pairs up with Stahl and Sumia is married or has A support with Frederick, Sumia has a +3 strength bonus over Cordelia at Chapter 8. If Stahl has higher than 9 strength, the difference is +2 in Sumia's favor instead. Sumia also has a +3 or +2 defense bonus over Cordelia when both show up in Chapter 8.

Why are you just assuming specific supports and no others? Wanna see what Cordelia can do that Sumia can't, even aside from Stahl?

She can support Kellam for basically the same kind of Str/Def boost as Frederick.

Vaike for more Str and less Def.

Ricken for Mag if she wants to go Dark Mage.

Libra for Str and Res.

And they all get help from her, too

Sumia can support Frederick. Chrom and Gaius aren't too useful for her nor do they get much out of it. Henry could theoretically be a decent extra but he comes so late that I don't think it's helping her case much. Panne and Sully are about equal in my eyes.

I conclude that Sumia is undeniably better than Cordelia by the time they both are around at the start of Chapter 8. This lead is going to continue for a long time.

If by "continue for a long time" you mean "be wiped out completely very soon and never exist again," I agree.

The tier list assumes optimal resource distribution, so this is not a penalty for Sumia.

What the hell is the actual point of this tier list? By your listed criteria, there's no plausible scenario in which Sumia reasonably wins over Cordelia. Edited September 14, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Chiki]

I honestly laughed when you thought that Sumia literally had a 70 kill advantage over Sumia. It was just an example.

I demonstrated in another thread that base Sumia can one round Knights in Chapter 4 with a forged Iron Lance.

[Nobody]

Stop counting Chapter 4 as though Sumia has any reason to be there at all, or is even likely to be there thanks to the low unit count

Stahl, MU, Lissa, Sully, Chrom, Sumia. Who would be in her place this chapter?

There are Archers to both sides in her joining chapter, Archers scattered in Paralogues 1 and 2, Fighters and Knights in Ch 4, And Wyverns in Ch 5 and Ch 7. There's a lot for her to look out for. "Fantastic" she is not, though I wouldn't put her in "suck zone" either.

Archers that are pathetic and can be OHKOed by her. By the way, about that post you replyed, I was talking about Sumia + Fred. There's absolutely no reason for her not being paired with him. She can easily kill all the wyverns in chapter 7.

Also let's not forget that Cordelia has trouble doubling when you first get her, while Sumia will be doubling everyone and their mothers.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Nobody

[ZemZem]

Stahl, MU, Lissa, Sully, Chrom, Sumia. Who would be in her place this chapter?

probably donnel

Seriously though, there's no reason Sumia wouldn't be deployed in Chapter 4 unless it's a draft and she wasn't drafted.

[Florete]

I honestly laughed when you thought that Sumia literally had a 70 kill advantage over Sumia. It was just an example.

I demonstrated in another thread that base Sumia can one round Knights in Chapter 4 with a forged Iron Lance.

Here I thought this was a tier list anyone could participate in but I guess you actually need knowledge of specific strategies and optimal deployment tactics to get a point across.

Stahl, MU, Lissa, Sully, Chrom, Sumia. Who would be in her place this chapter?

You didn't even list fucking Frederick. Vaike and Miriel are also viable candidates.

Archers that are pathetic and can be OHKOed by her.

Too bad she can only kill one at a time!

[ZemZem]

Too bad she can only kill one at a time!

This is HM, right? The archers aren't even close to each other, and with a pair up from Kellam, Vaike, or Frederick, Sumia can easily 1RKO them before they become a threat.

Correct me if I'm missing something.