Fire Emblem 12 Another Lunatic Tier List

[-Cynthia-]

I don't see how needing a RP use for speed is as bad as someone like Samto who has a 0 absolute Spd base in Chapter 6.

[dondon151]

pkl i don't get the point of the bottom 4 tiers. all of the units in there are more or less equally terrible.

/bringbackfreesilvers

also sirius sucks and it's pretty funny to see someone arguing on his behalf.

[commonguard]

Wait, so you thought Rody/Draug were worse than Minerva, but now say she's deserving of Upper Mid?

Yes, I did think that. Originally I had over-valued Hauteclere utility and had thought Rody was a lesser version of Draug who took longer to achieve what Draug could. After reconsidering her Hauteclere utility, comparing her to Leiden (growth and base-wise) and also reconsidering Rody and Draug, I have changed my stance(s).

I don’t see Leiden’s Lance Rank lead taking over her Hauteclere utility. And training her and giving her boosters allows for more avenues to recruit Michalis and Maria (it’s not much but Minerva > Leiden still).

Rody’s has a terrible start, requires some work to get levels in the prologue and has no sword rank like Luke. While he’ll probably need an Energy Drop to meet benchmarks, he’ll need one less Speedwing than Luke. 16/1 Rody (5 levels as a cavalier and 10 levels as a hunter) has a mean SPD of 18.25 (20.25 with Scorpio or Speedwing) as a Paladin or DK. RP away from being able to double dragons.

I still disagree with Draug being a good unit. Great SPD but more problems with HP, STR and LUK (which apparently is a huge deal) than Rody. Potential-wise Rody has Draug beat.

You sandbagged Caeda so hard. Sure, a few levels of no str def are bound to happen, but come on.

I’ll admit to sandbagging Caeda but MANY of her levels will not include STR or DEF, only a FEW will. In fact, anytime she has wings, I am grateful to get HP on top of the conventional SKL, SPD, LUK but I won’t continue on this matter since…

I will put him back in Top Tier though, because he IS always part of the core team in LTC

Thanks… but I notice he wasn’t actually moved yet.

Also, Gordin is still above Leiden/Belf. TBH I don’t see what his contributions are outside of C2 and C3. 8 turning C1 is incredibly lax. Athena who contributes massively in the prologue should be above him.

Stop it with the silly Marth arguments. If it continues I'll just untier marth. The fact is, he's in the core of any team in Lunatic LTC.

I don’t see how it is a silly argument. Anyways, I’ll settle for him dropping to High since he needs too many stat-boosters (including Maturity Drop and Boots).

Wendell can definetely pull off Excalibur in C11 with the mag shards, which no one really contests. He's just such a bad longterm unit...I also don't think Wendell can ever pull off Gharnef. (Calling Redwall and his binomial goodness here) How likely is Etzel to meet his benchmark spd (22) considering Rainbow Pot and a decent level (he does get quite a lot of exp through staves and excaliburing) for Gharnef, anyway?

--/17 Etzel (reasonable level for C23?) has a mean 17.5 SPD. He has 50% chance to get 18 SPD at level 17 with BINOM.DIST.RANGE(11, 0.5, 6, 11), then one wing and RP for the 22 SPD. And an 88.67% chance to get 16 SPD at level 17 with BINOM.DIST.RANGE(11, 0.5, 4, 11), 2 wings and RP for 22 SPD.

I don't see why Wendell is so many tiers below Etzel personally- they do the same staff user stuff although Wendell does it for slightly longer. Etzel has a 4 Mag advantage at base (and 20% more growth), but I'm not sure how many times Wendell actually misses the Wyvern/Dracoknight KOs and Etzel hits it. Wendell is outclassed here, but they're largely swappable.

Yeah, I’m changing my previous stance on Katarina > Wendell. It should be the other way around. Wendell is underrated compared to some of the other staff bots; Etzel and Yumina in particular.

He could have a staff rank lead on Etzel. C staff rank as a Bishop by the start of C9 at which point he obsoletes base Yumina at least. He can also get C staff rank as a Sage for C13 so Physic and Excalibur which is hard or impossible for Etzel. Not arguing for Wendell > Etzel, but rather reconsider positions for most staff bots. Maybe Yumina and Etzel a bit lower and Wendell above Julian?

also sirius sucks and it's pretty funny to see someone arguing on his behalf.

Sirius is used in all, if not virtually all, efficient playthroughs. He was in High before I started arguing for him to be in Top, he used to be in Top (from what I can surmise from the first few comments), and now he should be moving back into Top. What definition are you using that would make you say Sirius “sucks”? Edited September 19, 2013 by commonguard

[dondon151]

sirius being used in all playthroughs does not mean that he is top tier material. luke is used in about every serious playthrough. arran is used in every playthrough.

we're all spoiled by insanely blessed siriuses with a ton of stat boosters that we ignore the fact that his average stats just aren't all that good. you can't legitimately make the claim that he's good after chapter 14. his EXP gain slows to a crawl after the dragon valley is over and he already has enough trouble stat-wise without delving into future issues of slow EXP gain.

you make the claim that sirius deserves to be the target of EXP favoritism. i can just as easily make a converse claim for literally any other combat unit in top tier. you can make the claim for stat boosters; i can make a converse claim for high tier units such as luke, rody, and cecille. the fact that he needs lots and (i'm not understating this) lots of help to remain viable throughout the game immediately suggests that he is at best, a high tier unit.

(also, you should know that an argument from authority is a fallacy. "sirius used to be in top tier" is not evidence for sirius belonging in top tier.)

Edited September 19, 2013 by dondon151

[shadykid]

pkl i don't get the point of the bottom 4 tiers. all of the units in there are more or less equally terrible.

/bringbackfreesilvers

you're doing it wrong

#freesilvers

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Should be #freesilversonpklcycle

[PKL]

Sorry, but I don't agree with Free Silvers dondon :P

@ Commonguard- I see. And yeah, I havent moved anyone yet because I plan to make changes every once in a while. Once it's time to update, I'll move those.

[Redwall]

Merric should be above Navarre. Merric at least does something in the Prologue, and has potential as a passable Excalibur user (though obviously not as good as Etzel in general, esp. at staff-botting).

I don't think Nagi should be between Lena and Maria, who both have C-ranked staffs. Lena and Maria should occupy the same line on the tier list, with Elice and Nyna (who both have B-ranked staves for Recover and Again on Marth) sharing a higher line.

[commonguard]

(also, you should know that an argument from authority is a fallacy. "sirius used to be in top tier" is not evidence for sirius belonging in top tier.)

Fair enough, bad argument on my part.

you make the claim that sirius deserves to be the target of EXP favoritism.

He is a promoted unit, if you intend on using him he should get exp. It doesn’t have to be boss kills. Promoted kills are also fine. For the record, I don’t go out of my way to give him kills. He reaches bosses in a timely manner and contributes enough damage to warrant the kill being given to him. Boss kills C4-C9 are mostly between MU, Sirius and Palla anyways. There is no shortage of exp for MU even without boss kills. So it’s just Palla, and I’ve never had an issue getting Palla 6 levels before C8 without boss kills.

Now I do give Sirius a lot of dragon kills in the valley but I give Catria more (I think like 10 for Catria and I don’t think it’s possible to get Sirius the same amount). All I can remember is Catria goes on a rampage in C13 killing 5 dragons in 6 turns and Marth gets like 8 or 9 so yeah. I concentrate exp on certain units. Not just Sirius.

we're all spoiled by insanely blessed siriuses with a ton of stat boosters that we ignore the fact that his average stats just aren't all that good. you can't legitimately make the claim that he's good after chapter 14. his EXP gain slows to a crawl after the dragon valley is over and he already has enough trouble stat-wise without delving into future issues of slow EXP gain.

Admittedly, Sirius is just finding odd jobs in C15-C20. To be fair though, usually everyone outside of Catria, Horseman and MU are doing the same. But still he can do things to gain exp in those chapters. Surely he can gain 4 levels in the span of C15-C21 (at least with an arena use). And assume he came out of C14 at level 13 (not insanely unreasonable).

This is --/17 Horseman!Sirius (8 levels as a DK, 4 levels each as an SM and Hero) + Angelic Robe, Energy Drop, Speedwing (3 boosters, calm down).

47.8HP, 23STR, 24SKL, 26.4 SPD, 13LUK, 16DEF

SM!Sirius same stuff

49.8HP, 22STR, 29SKL, 30SPD, 13LUK, 16DEF.

This looks pretty good to me.

i can just as easily make a converse claim for literally any other combat unit in top tier

I swear, I’m not biased towards Caeda. She’s the lowest combat unit in Top tier other than Marth (but he might not be there for long).

Make a case for Caeda to be drowned in exp. What is she doing with levels past a certain point? Her performance change with additional levels is abysmal. Her ability to kill things relies on her SPD in tandem with effective weaponry. What happens when she can’t double or the enemy isn’t weak to any weapons she can use?

I don't think Nagi should be between Lena and Maria, who both have C-ranked staffs. Lena and Maria should occupy the same line on the tier list, with Elice and Nyna (who both have B-ranked staves for Recover and Again on Marth) sharing a higher line.

Elice and Nyna have A staves. Lena has B. So Maria is the worst of the 4.

This is mostly a joke argument not to be taken seriously but humour me and ponder this for a minute (or a few seconds); are Elice and Nyna ever going to use Fortify? Even if it is laughable, doesn't Lena's ability to use Hammerne in the endgame warrant her being above Elice and Nyna?

[Redwall]

Elice and Nyna have A staves. Lena has B. So Maria is the worst of the 4.

This is mostly a joke argument not to be taken seriously but humour me and ponder this for a minute (or a few seconds); are Elice and Nyna ever going to use Fortify? Even if it is laughable, doesn't Lena's ability to use Hammerne in the endgame warrant her being above Elice and Nyna?

My mistake on the staff ranks. Regardless, I never implied that Fortify from Elice/Nyna was necessary or useful; however, Recover (which heals a single target from 1-range to full health) can be useful for something silly like a Marth-less clear of Medeus.

I forget about Lena being able to use Hammerne; I can see her being ranked above the other three Bishops in a Mallesia-less playthrough for this reason, especially since Fortify is useless coming from the four Bishops. They'd still all be in the same tier, obviously.

[PKL]

A Malicia-less playthrough wouldn't even bother obtaining the Hammerne staff in C5 lol

[dondon151]

He is a promoted unit, if you intend on using him he should get exp... And assume he came out of C14 at level 13 (not insanely unreasonable).

this is the crux of the argument. i have a save that has sirius at L7.57 going into chapter 13. i don't think that him gaining 5 and a half levels in the span of 2 and a half chapters (face it, chapter 13x hardly counts) is a tenable assertion. i'm reasonably certain, since i no longer had the save, that sirius went into chapter 15 at L10, and he already had a couple of excursions in the arena to augment his EXP gain.

let's be clear here. you are seriously suggesting that a unit who starts, promoted, at L1 can gain an average of what amounts to one level per chapter (10 normal chapters, plus 3 short gaidens, plus part of chapter 4). i would contend that this is wholly unreasonable. even palla, who starts at a lower base level, has difficulty maintaining that rate of growth. for any given map, most units are not going to kill more than 2-3 enemies. even if sirius killed 3 enemies per map, and they were all promoted, his level is high enough that he still wouldn't be able to gain a level from that EXP. you'd literally need a constant stream of bosskill EXP to even attempt to keep sirius viable, but this comes at the cost of a weaker MU and palla.

i would almost hazard a guess that your playstyle is too relaxed in the context of this discussion. judging by this quote alone:

All I can remember is Catria goes on a rampage in C13 killing 5 dragons in 6 turns and Marth gets like 8 or 9 so yeah.

there are 14 starting dragons in chapter 13, and somehow you split all of them between catria and marth when marth should be rushing to the gate. first of all, 8 dragon kills on marth is virtually impossible when the map can be completed in 6 turns. second, there is no way that you split all of the dragons between exactly catria and marth. i'm willing to bet that you triggered reinforcements and farmed EXP off those.

so now that i've called you out on your playstyle, i can safely debunk your claim of a L13 sirius in chapter 15. and this is bad for sirius, because losing 3 levels of EXP means that he loses an average of about 2 points each in str, skl, spd, and luk.

Edited September 20, 2013 by dondon151

[commonguard]

this is the crux of the argument. i have a save that has sirius at L7.57 going into chapter 13. i don't think that him gaining 5 and a half levels in the span of 2 and a half chapters (face it, chapter 13x hardly counts) is a tenable assertion.

That’s interesting because my Sirius going into C13 is --/7.60. Weird. This must be a save where I didn’t pump Sirius full of boss kills earlier. I was certain he could get higher. Anyways, it is certainly a tenable assertion.

let's be clear here. you are seriously suggesting that a unit who starts, promoted, at L1 can gain an average of what amounts to one level per chapter (9 normal chapters, plus 3 short gaidens, plus part of chapter 4).

Indeed, this is what I am suggesting. Sounds crazy? I just might be.

i would contend that this is wholly unreasonable. even palla, who starts at a lower base level, has difficulty maintaining that rate of growth. for any given map, most units are not going to kill more than 2-3 enemies. even if sirius killed 3 enemies per map, and they were all promoted, his level is high enough that he still wouldn't be able to gain a level from that EXP.

Well, you’d be surprised what Feena + Malicia can do for a combat units exp consumption.

you'd literally need a constant stream of bosskill EXP to even attempt to keep sirius viable,

That’s what he gets in C13 and C14. Well dragon kills but same side effect.

but this comes at the cost of a weaker MU and palla.

Lmao. Cost of a weaker MU? Is this a joke? MU hit 15/7 in C8. I sometimes have to forge – Mt on handaxes so he DOESN’T ORKO wyrms in C11 so others can kill them. Seriously, give MU a Dracoshield, RP, Cancer and Taurus armed with a steel axe or a cheap iron forge and he will go rape (it’s a 2RKO but still) some generals in C8. As for Palla, I don’t care. She can do what I need her to with the sparse amount of kills she gets. She’s mostly a support flier or doing odd jobs similar to Sirius during most of the chapters later on anyways. Only difference is I need male units to do some heavy lifting post C20x.

i would almost hazard a guess that your playstyle is too relaxed in the context of this discussion. judging by this quote alone

My mistake. Didn’t realize that was what I posted. My playstyle is not relaxed though. Catria does get 5 dragons in 6 turns in C13. Marth gets 9 dragons throughout C11-C14.

Incoming HUGE wall of text.

C11 – Marth gets both wyrms set up by a sniper, Sirius gets 2 here both set by MU.

C12 – a modification of your strategy actually, Marth (with a Levin sword) gets a dragon on turn 1 weakened by Palla silver lance (shards and RP will be necessary to precisely control the damage output), gets danced by Feena after recruiting Darros for another dragon (weakened by DK!MU with a hand axe) and one more right before seize weakened by MU again.

Sirius gets a wyrm and the boss.

C13 – I’ll go a bit more indepth since you think I activated the reinforcement spawns but the TL;DR version is Marth gets a wyrm set up by Linde. Sirius gets 4 dragons. Catria gets 5.

FK!Catria needs to be loaded with Cancer and another one of the DEF shards and RP to fight 5 dragons (including the boss) in the span of 6 turns. She will be physic’d by Malicia for many of the turns.

LHS.

SM!Linde, FK!Catria, Paladin!Caeda and some Horseman capable of OHKOing a wyrm with a 13Mt bow and also ORKOing the mage on EP. Marth tags along here too.

Turn 1.

Catria ORKOs the dragon. Marth moves near her, swaps her item to a sword. Caeda places herself slightly NW of Catria with a +2 MT +10 hit javelin equipped and uses a pure water. SM!Linde with as few shards as necessary, will move to a tile NE of the bandit and ORKO with a Levin Sword. Horseman will be at the edge of the mages range and will ORKO on EP (everyone else in range has higher RES). Malicia heals Catria with physic.

Turn 2.

Caeda finishes off the bandit (hit rates even with the javelin forge admittedly suck but w/e). SM!Linde moves up into wyrm attack range (needs to stay out of the ice dragon’s range though) so that Marth can conveniently KO on his way to Beck. Horseman is healed by Malicia and heads to a spot near the SW corner of the map where he can only be targeted by one wyrm which he will KO on EP. Due to AI turn order and Linde’s dodge rate she will survive this encounter. Catria uses a vulnerary to get up to full HP and positions herself to attack the dragon toward the north. Marth moves slightly up.

Turn 3.

Catria ORKOs the dragon to the north. Caeda positions herself 1 square right from the forest tile south of the river (you want a forged javelin and STR shards to help with this as Caeda is weak) to draw and ORKO both mages. Malicia physics her from 2 squares down (I don’t know how important this positioning is but whenever I try to just heal her both dragons come down). Horseman heals and moves toward Caeda. Marth KO’s the wyrm. Linde heals and moves toward Caeda as well staying out of mage range. On EP both mages suicide and bandit will move toward Caeda. Additionally those two dragons above the mages and bandit trio will move. Catria needs to be in OHKO range (which is why she isn’t healed by Malicia this turn). Malicia’s presence should draw one dragon and the other should be drawn in by Catria being in OHKO range. People on the RHS should stay away from river tiles during this time. AI manipulation is hard enough without random things screwing it up.

Turn 4.

Catria is healed by Malicia, and KO’s the dragon that moved towards her. Caeda gets out of the bandit’s range but moves into the other ice dragon’s range and uses a vulnerary. Horseman moves and heals again staying out of any ranges. Linde crosses the streams and heals, ends up in bandit’s range (will ORKO on EP) but out of ice dragon’s range. Marth recruits Beck, hands member card, yada, yada.

Turn 5.

Catria moves up north and ORKO’s the dragon near the fort after being healed by Malicia again. Caeda probably had to be loaded with STR shards so she probably didn’t have the inventory to hold a dragonpike. Horseman can team up on the dragon or pass her a dragonpike or w/e, either one can get the kill. Linde should be able to ORKO the thief. If for some reason she can’t double, she always has turn 6 to kill it. Beck moves towards the save point.

RHS.

This side requires less precision thankfully.

Berserker!MU, Hero!Sirius, DK!Palla, Bishop!Etzel, Feena. Sirius obviously needs 22 SPD with RP/Scorpio or w/e. It helps to have Palla be able to OHKO the thief with a silver lance but it’s not necessary. MU needs to be 3HKO’d (shouldn’t be too hard).

Turn 1.

MU with the help of Feena ORKOs both bandits. Sirius ORKO’s the dragon, and Palla the mage. Etzel mends Sirius. No EP, full rout.

Turn 2.

Etzel will physic MU, danced by Feena, and mend Palla. Etzel, Feena, Sirius all move as forward as possible while staying out of range. MU moves into a spot where the wyrms can be picked off by Sirius and Palla after MU counters them on EP.

Turn 3.

Sirius and Palla pick off wyrms. I should note, if Palla cannot OHKO the thief then she has to toss a javelin or she has to forgo a wyrm kill on turn 6 and someone else has to carry the +3 Mt forged dragonpike. Etzel heals someone, and is danced by Feena. MU uses the save point. Etzel moves up and heals MU.

Turn 4.

Palla KO’s the thief on this turn (I’m assuming your Palla can OHKO the thief). Everyone moves up and stays out of range of the ice dragon below the Spirit Dust chest except MU. MU moves next to the river and equips a melee weapon or unequips his handaxe (we don’t want to randomly crit the dragon that was meant for Sirius now do we?).

Turn 5.

Sirius moves up slightly, gets danced by Feena, steps into the river and ORKOs the dragon. MU crosses the river and heals staying out of reinforcement activation range. Palla moves into position to kill the leftmost ice dragon near the boss.

Turn 6.

Everyone still in play has congregated around the boss area so last part will involve everyone still in play.

Etzel heals Sirius. Sirius moves exactly one square to the left. Feena steps into the river and dances Sirius. Malicia uses physic on Catria for the last time. Beck uses the save point to make sure everything goes over smoothly. MU moves between the mages and Kos the left mage. Palla moves next to MU and KOs the left dragon. Catria moves next to Palla, grabs the +3Mt dragonpike forge off of her and ORKOs the boss (DKs can’t do this but FKs can). Also the support bonus from Palla + MU should increase the hit rates quite a bit (I saw 91 displayed hit). Sirius KOs the last dragon. Marth Seizes.

Yes, I actually did just play through this map. I remember the LHS being stupidly dependant on positioning so I had to double-check some things. And the AI is really anal about target selection so I wanted to make sure what exactly was necessary.

C14 – I’m not going to replay this map like I did C13. It’s not a hard map to 6 turn. But I‘ll give you the highlights and some of the specifics. The TL;DR version is Marth gets 3 dragons, Sirius gets 4-6, Catria gets 2-3.

6 turns for this map. Julian fielded to swap out Xane’s inventory, use the save point, and acquire the Swordslayer. This strategy requires you give Scorpio, Cancer and another DEF shard to your Horseman (it’s similar to what PKL did in his playthrough). Horseman will also need a(nother) Speedwing and a Dracoshield along with RP. Fast enough to double the thief and durable enough to survive two ice dragons. Horseman inventory is shards, vulnerary and killerbow. You’ll want someone to eventually trade him a wyrmslayer. Essentially after he KOs the thief he will be pulling back and using vulneraries while taking potshots at the dragons on EPs.

Turn 1.

Sirius KOs the left-most dragon, is healed by Sage!Linde (armed with Nosferatu), danced by Feena, and KOs the northern most dragon accessible on turn 1. Berserker!MU helps Marth kill the middle dragon. Catria kills the last dragon. Xane copies Paladin!Palla. Palla then moves to the right of Sirius and KOs the mage. On EP dragon will attack from the north. The two thieves will attack Sirius and Palla. The dragon’s target needs to be Palla, controlled by way of LUK shards, RPs and possibly even the C11 Goddess Icon.

Turn 2.

Marth KOs Palla’s dragon from a square so he can get the starsphere on turn 3 WITHOUT Feena’s help. Sirius can get a dragon here but you can feed it to someone else if you want. Don’t worry he can get a few more in this chapter. Mostly just clean up, Linde should be the one danced by Feena.

Turn 3.

RHS dragons are KO’d, MU draws the LHS. Marth gets the starsphere.

Turn 4.

Marth moves to the right of the save point, is danced by Feena, and full moves to ORKO a dragon with a forged wyrmslayer. (My Marth was level 18 and was able to do this with both RP and Starsphere). I don’t think he was blessed. Sirius KOs a dragon on the LHS. My Sage!Linde (who I gave 5 Spirit Dusts and RP was able to ORKO an Ice dragon with Aura) and so Sirius, Linde and MU were able to eliminate the LHS handily. Not sure if I had to do this but, MU killed the mage with a handaxe and because of the AI move order the ice dragons and mage from the room couldn’t gang up on MU. Julian used the save point on this turn to insure MU did not crit and kill the dragons.

Turn 5.

Marth recruits Tiki. LHS is cleaned up with Sirius getting a dragon, RHS units get into position to massacre the reinforcement dragons. Feena gives Horseman (I just realized I’ve been calling him Horseman, he’s Luke btw) a wyrmslayer.

Turn 6.

Linde rescue Marth. Depending on which way the reinforcements go, Sirius might need to be danced by Feena for a dragon kill. Everyone cleans up what they can, Luke uses the wyrmslayer he got from Feena to get a kill, Catria gets one and anyone else who can reach.

Malicia obviously just spamming Fortify all day. I kind of over-leveled her by spamming some early physics because I needed her to facetank a silver bow in C11 so I could use the save point on that map. She was freshly promoted for this chapter.

EDIT: Yeah, the presentation of the spoiler text is kind of an eyesore. Sorry about that. I bolded some stuff to make it easier but it still looks like crap. For C13 and C14 only the TL;DR stuff is imperative to my claim. The other stuff is just specifics if you don't believe me.

EDIT#2: Sirius was level --/9.54 going into C14 and at the end of PP of turn 1 he was --/10.72. Another thing, I missed an opportunity to get him a potential thief kill. Palla could swap his weapon so he's equipped with the Master Sword. Man...

Edited September 21, 2013 by commonguard

[PKL]

Updated the Tier List with the following:

Minerva lowered to Upper Mid Tier

Yumina below Minerva in Upper Mid Tier

Leiden above Darros

Belf now in the top of Mid Tier

Frey moved from Upper Mid to Mid Tier, below Katarina

Merric above Navarre

Roger below Darros

Gordin below Athena

Stuff I'm still iffy about:

Rickard vs Julian vs everyone else in their group. How much are their contributions really worth?

Nagi too close to Tiki?

Gordin's C1, 2 and 3 vs Athena's Prologue?

Sirius really worthy of Top Tier?

Katarina vs Wendell

Frey, is he even usable with his spd problems?

In a world without Malicia, just how good is Yumina, really? Enough to put her above Minerva? Was she in the right spot before?

[commonguard]

I assumed a large part of why Malicia was in Top was because of Hammerne saving a lot of turns. Yumina isn’t far off if Malicia was there mainly because of Physic, Fortify and potential Gharnef-slaying (Yumina has better base SPD for this actually). High was good for her but she doesn’t belong in top since she isn’t core.
Tiki should move down. Wouldn’t she negatively affect turns if you were to use her? Nagi could move above all 4 Bishops. One-time staff usage vs. killing dragons with a bit of help.
Sirius... I thought I made a pretty good case to get him into Top. Really, he is nowhere near as people make him out to be and he has the advantages of being a male unit with good weapon ranks. He just requires exp and 3 stat-boosters. Full (or near-full) routing most maps will get you the exp you need and being diligent about making sure you don`t "waste" any kills by giving them to temp units will make sure your main group is appropriately leveled. (This doesn’t come at the cost of turns or reliability, you just need to look more carefully at the map.)
I hope your pants are on fire PKL. You said you would move him.

Edited September 24, 2013 by commonguard

[PKL]

Dondon stirred up my doubts again though. Sorry about that. :/ I need more convincing.

There's nothing wrong with not moving him now. I can move him next week, i just want more discussion on Sirius. Like I said, I still have my doubts.

Edited September 24, 2013 by PKL

[commonguard]

Well, I don't know what to discuss since dondon151 hasn't responded to my response to his response to my response to his response to my response to his response to my arguments for Sirius to Top tier.

I'm uncertain of whether that statement is exact or just precise.

I'm not arguing Sirius is better than anyone currently in Top. Just that he is Top tier material.

Some stuff to cement Athena's dominance over Gordin... I really hate archers. I don`t know why I used strikethrough, I really do hate archers.

C1 - I am 90% (made that number up) that C1 on H3 is doable with only MU, PK!Cecille, General!Arran, reclassed healer, Malicia, and one other combat unit. Which means Gordin's contributions here would be minimal at best.

C2 - Depending on if you have the bow forge or not for this chapter, he may not be necessary here.

C3 - So like back when I had a lot of difficulty with the DKs in this chapter I always fielded multiple bowmen or I had the bow forge to eliminate the DKs without much of a hassle.

However, you can actually have Pirate!MU (with the +4Mt Ironaxe forge I strongly recommend), Catria, Malicia and any other unit reclassed to a hunter can handle the DKs. DK!Arran needs to pull the center DKs (2 of which need should then be redirected to Malicia`s location). Arran also needs to switch his weapon to an axe so that Marth will be targeted by the DK that wasn`t redirected otherwise I think Arran doesn`t have the HP to tank the Master Seal DK. (Arran`s Silver lance + 2x Marth Steel sword will kill assuming they both used RP. Marth should also be able to survive two rounds of combat vs. the DK with a vulnerary usage.)

Pirate!MU and Catria can cross the sea for routing the boss area. Optionally, you can also send like Cavalier!Luke equipped with a lance or something with Marth if the DKs aren`t behaving. Sometimes the center DKs like to go up to harass Palla in the north if you just have Arran and Marth moving west.

So yeah... Gordin isn`t really necessary.

[dondon151]

Well, I don't know what to discuss since dondon151 hasn't responded to my response to his response to my response to his response to my response to his response to my arguments for Sirius to Top tier.

i haven't bothered responding because it's just a bunch of fluff in a he-said-she-said argument. i can't contest your play-by-play account of what happened because i don't have access to the proper files and i also don't have the time to go through and verify every little thing (nor is there even a need to). needless to say, you presented an unfalsifiable argument, since i have the equally valid and unfalsifiable account of sirius sucking dick.

what's definitely clear is that you haven't adequately addressed my claims of pro-sirius favoritism. it seems pretty evident that you put in extra effort to make sirius good at the cost of other units. a sirius that comes out of chapter 14 at L13 could easily have been a 14/10 or higher luke, who is basically better than sirius.

then you make the claim that palla is a support flier who does odd jobs. this is a joke. palla is by far the best combat unit in the game second to avatar. it's definitely true that her utility drops once having access to berserker or horseman is actually relevant, but this is just pretending that sirius is useful in those classes. i mean, come on. you need, like, 30 spd as horseman to really actually be the go-to horseman on the team. sirius at L20 has 24 spd as horseman. it'll maybe be a point higher if he leveled up a lot in faster classes. you can't seriously make the claim that a long-term investment in sirius is better than a long-term investment in, say, luke. i'm going to have to defer to people who have had more experience at finishing the game than i have, but i find your claim of sirius being any good at endgame to be spurious. you'd have to get pretty blessed on top of a fistful of stat boosters.

[commonguard]

what's definitely clear is that you haven't adequately addressed my claims of pro-sirius favoritism. it seems pretty evident that you put in extra effort to make sirius good at the cost of other units. a sirius that comes out of chapter 14 at L13 could easily have been a 14/10 or higher luke, who is basically better than sirius.

More favouritism nonsense. Sirius is getting exp at the cost of MU who is 15/11.60 going into C14. MU btw has been setting kills for the likes of Linde, Caeda, Luke, Catria, and even Palla not just Sirius. I make an effort to do full or near-full routs of maps (at the very least most of the dragons). I don’t squander the DK exp on earlier maps either by letting useless units with absolutely no future on my team OHKO them with a forged bow.

And I should point out, I’ve put more effort on the LHS of C13 (especially that AI manipulation) than everything else in C13-C14 combined and Sirius wasn’t part of the LHS of C13 at all. As for Luke potentially hitting 14/10… who says he isn’t heading into C15 at that level or close to it? Luke is operating independently of Sirius for the majority of maps, they are almost never competing for the same kills and when they are I am definitely giving them to Luke.

then you make the claim that palla is a support flier who does odd jobs. this is a joke. palla is by far the best combat unit in the game second to avatar.

It’s not a joke. She is outclassed by both Catria and Luke starting C17. To be honest Linde is ORKOing things when Palla can’t anymore. Even Sniper!Caeda with her ridiculous speed is outperforming her. Palla is definitely amazing pre-C15, but back on the mainland it’s is just odd-jobs and support flier for her. She is essentially in direct competition with Sirius for jobs, except Sirius has a wider selection. I guess technically she’s slightly better in C19 because she gives support to Catria.

it's definitely true that her utility drops once having access to berserker or horseman is actually relevant, but this is just pretending that sirius is useful in those classes.

Yea, you’re right Sirius is a useless dumbshit as a horseman. I can’t possibly see how having a 9 MOV unit with access to both bows (including the bow forge since Luke has Parthia – yes, if you don’t waste the bow it can last this long) and swords (including the Brave sword) could possibly be of help to anyone during C21-C23. I have no idea where berserker came from since Sirius has no axe rank.

you can't seriously make the claim that a long-term investment in sirius is better than a long-term investment in, say, luke.

I never claimed he is a better long-term investment than Luke. I’m kind of confused as to why you would think I would. I’ve made posts arguing he’s a better recipient for exp than Caeda (since she caprams SPD and her other growths suck) and Palla (less potential than Sirius due to class restriction and crappy SPD growth) in the dragon chapters but not Luke.... Now I would also argue Luke to be in Top but he needs way too many boosters and babying in the early game.

i find your claim of sirius being any good at endgame to be spurious. you'd have to get pretty blessed on top of a fistful of stat boosters.

I’ve made a post regarding Sirius’ --/17 average stats after leveling up in certain classes and 3 (=fistful?) stat-boosters. He is perfectly viable, he’s even borderline 3HKO by wyrms as a horseman in C21.

[Redwall]

Yea, you’re right Sirius is a useless dumbshit as a horseman. I can’t possibly see how having a 9 MOV unit with access to both bows (including the bow forge since Luke has Parthia – yes, if you don’t waste the bow it can last this long) and swords (including the Brave sword) could possibly be of help to anyone during C21-C23. I have no idea where berserker came from since Sirius has no axe rank.

The Brave Sword isn't that useful; you can get the job done just fine in the lategame if Sirius or Palla takes a +2-Mt Wyrmslayer (I can only recall one instance, maybe two, where Sirius' ability to use the Brave Sword/Mercurius in the lategame helped--a Sorceror in Ch 23 and possibly 22).

As a Horseman, Sirius isn't going to double lategame Sorcerors/Dragons unless he receives multiple Speedwings (+ Rainbow); he really is better off as a Swordmaster, except the stuff he does as a Swordmaster can be replicated by your other units. Sirius can't OHKO the Flying Dragons in Ch 21 with a 13-Mt bow unless he somehow gets C-ranked bows, which will cost either an Arms Scroll or a 2-Mov penalty from reclassing to Sniper--but even then, the Flying Dragons can spawn with an extra point of HP to put him out of range of a OHKO without a stronger forge.

In Ch 23, a Swordmaster with 20 Str, C-ranked swords, and a +2-Mt Wyrmslayer can ORKO Mage Dragons. Except 20 Str isn't that hard to reach, even for Caeda, when the Rainbow Potion is on the table. The difference between their respective endgame performances is not as big as you suggest.

The problem with Sirius is the fact that his earlygame performance isn't that impressive compared to Caeda's Prologue performance: he's chipping some DKs, doubling Lang, and poking Thieves; she's the number 2 combat unit in the latter half of the Prologue. The Armorslayer forge gives Sirius slightly more EXP, but doesn't do anything to speed up the Ch 8 clear. Certainly Sirius should get credit for having the potential to be serviceable in the lategame, but that's not enough to put him in the top tier when accounting for his comparatively weak (but still good) earlygame performance.

I'm also surprised that you would tier Sirius above Luke given that you've been implying Luke's endgame to be much better than Sirius'.

[commonguard]

The Brave Sword isn't that useful

As a Horseman, Sirius isn't going to double lategame Sorcerors/Dragons unless he receives multiple Speedwings (+ Rainbow)

Paladin!Sirius (if leveled) can reliably ORKO Sorcerers with the Brave sword in C22. Depending on how leveled he is he may even be able to do this as a Horseman for C21 and C22.

Sirius can't OHKO the Flying Dragons in Ch 21 with a 13-Mt bow

So what? He can KO wyrms after they’ve been weakened by a Javelin toss from Catria and he outranges Sorcerers. Essentially Catria, Luke, and Sirius can handle the bottom, while your fliers and Marth head to the village. Admittedly though, he and Catria are teaming up to do things while Luke is loling in their faces.

He can also do whatever Caeda is doing on this map as a support flier.

The Armorslayer forge gives Sirius slightly more EXP, but doesn't do anything to speed up the Ch 8 clear

Hero!Sirius flat out ORKOs the Armscroll General in C8 with the Armourslayer forge which allows MU to either get a Sniper kill for himself or set a kill up for someone else. Even DK!MU can’t ORKO generals without Hammer (maybe non-fighter MUs can reach C axes?) or killer lance crits.

The problem with Sirius is the fact that his earlygame performance isn't that impressive compared to Caeda's Prologue performance: he's chipping some DKs, doubling Lang, and poking Thieves

In C7, he can actually OPKO (one poke knock out) thieves with RP and shards while wielding a Silver lance. He also does massive damage to the C7 boss.

And with RP and borrowing shards he can actually OCKO (one chip knock out) and face-tank DKs in C9 as a Sniper with the bow forge he would have access to (since our hunter is like in trading proximity to Sirius).

Paladin!Sirius with RP and a Speedwing is able to ORKO Lang with the Armourslayer forge. This allows MU to kill a Bishop for additional exp gain. Actually, I think Frey can reach the knights in the throne room by turn 6 and I think MU + Frey can kill a knight together. So then Caeda can use the Lady sword to kill a Bishop. So he’s not even costing Caeda her precious exp anymore.

The difference between their respective endgame performances is not as big as you suggest.

The difference between Caeda’s prologue and Sirius’ early + late game is not so largely in Caeda’s favour to be noted by a tier gap either.

I'm also surprised that you would tier Sirius above Luke given that you've been implying Luke's endgame to be much better than Sirius'.

If this was my tier list I would put Luke in Top tier (above Sirius), Sirius would’ve already been in Top, there would be a Unique Utility tier, Marth would be in said tier, there would be a Free Silvers tier (which would be above the “All Default Archers in FE Games are Shit, Why Should this Game be any Different” tier), etc. Totally not biased, I swear.

Anyways, Luke requires too much babying early on that he doesn’t really fit PKL’s description of Top tier. The reason I’m arguing for Sirius to be in Top is because he does fit the description.

[Redwall]

Paladin!Sirius (if leveled) can reliably ORKO Sorcerers with the Brave sword in C22. Depending on how leveled he is he may even be able to do this as a Horseman for C21 and C22.

Of the high-tier units, any Swordmaster (if leveled), save for Arran and Linde, can reliably ORKO Sorcerors without the Brave Sword. I also never said the Brave Sword was useless.

So what? He can KO wyrms after theyve been weakened by a Javelin toss from Catria and he outranges Sorcerers.

Anyone can KO wyrms after chip damage. Outranging the one Thoron Sorceror in the lower-right quadrant of C21 isn't anything to write home about when you can just fight him during the enemy phase. The Meteor Sorceror far to the right can be ganged up on.

Hero!Sirius flat out ORKOs the Armscroll General in C8 with the Armourslayer forge which allows MU to either get a Sniper kill for himself or set a kill up for someone else.

Not sure why you think this means much; the Avatar can set up kills for him/herself or for other units just fine in Sirius' absence. Sirius is merely helping himself, and not his teammates, here. Certainly this does improve the expected turn-count in the dragon chapters by an iota, since Sirius does gain EXP this way, but you shouldn't have to argue in the weeds when it comes to ostensibly top-tier characters.

In C7, he can actually OPKO (one poke knock out) thieves with RP and shards while wielding a Silver lance. He also does massive damage to the C7 boss.

And with RP and borrowing shards he can actually OCKO (one chip knock out) and face-tank DKs in C9 as a Sniper with the bow forge he would have access to (since our hunter is like in trading proximity to Sirius).

I'm aware he can OHKO Thieves; I just don't think it means much. I didn't use the RP at all in my H4 run and had no trouble with C7; for this reason, I am fairly sure that Caeda and Catria can each do Sirius' job just fine if Arran is also around. Worst case scenario, you're losing a Seraph Robe that cuts the expected turn-count by very little.

I don't disagree that Sirius is useful for killing a Dracoknight in C9 on turn two. With or without that contribution, however, his early-game performance is qualitatively no different.

Paladin!Sirius with RP and a Speedwing is able to ORKO Lang with the Armourslayer forge. This allows MU to kill a Bishop for additional exp gain. Actually, I think Frey can reach the knights in the throne room by turn 6 and I think MU + Frey can kill a knight together. So then Caeda can use the Lady sword to kill a Bishop. So hes not even costing Caeda her precious exp anymore.

Not only are you facing WTD, but Lang is also on a throne. Unless that additional EXP actually cuts the expected turn-count elsewhere to a large enough extent to dwarf the decrease in reliability resulting from the WTD, it's not happening unless you're playing without Caeda.

The difference between Caedas prologue and Sirius early + late game is not so largely in Caedas favour to be noted by a tier gap either.

P4: Caeda is the only other character besides the Avatar who doesn't get doubled by Athena; she also doubles enemies, something no one else can do (except for the Avatar, depending on the build).

P5-7: She and Athena are the only two characters (again, possible exception for the Avatar) who can double things.

P8: I don't recall if Est can double. Otherwise my arguments are the same.

Consider the turns lost in Caeda's absence to the turns lost in Sirius' absence. Fast completions of the Prologue chapters lean on Caeda to a much larger extent than do fast completions of Sirius' first few chapters on Sirius.

If this was my tier list I would put Luke in Top tier (above Sirius), Sirius wouldve already been in Top, there would be a Unique Utility tier, Marth would be in said tier, there would be a Free Silvers tier [...]

Anyways, Luke requires too much babying early on that he doesnt really fit PKLs description of Top tier. The reason Im arguing for Sirius to be in Top is because he does fit the description.

Let's look at the criteria, then: "Units that are core to achieving low turn counts on many maps, and do not require many resources or a team composition to do this effectively." Sirius is core to achieving low turn-counts on only a few maps, and requires a great deal of resources (dragon kills), without which he is total crap. This is babying in the same way that you consider feeding Luke his early-game kills to be babying. I personally wouldn't penalize Sirius for this so long as it remains the optimal thing to do in a variety of contexts, but since you insist on going by the descriptions...

[commonguard]

Of the high-tier units, any Swordmaster (if leveled), save for Arran and Linde, can reliably ORKO Sorcerors without the Brave Sword. I also never said the Brave Sword was useless.

Yet Caeda has difficulty doing this even with the Lady Sword. In fact, doesn’t she even have difficulty surviving the counter attack from them? Draug has issues surviving as well.

Anyone can KO wyrms after chip damage. Outranging the one Thoron Sorceror in the lower-right quadrant of C21 isn't anything to write home about when you can just fight him during the enemy phase. The Meteor Sorceror far to the right can be ganged up on.

Is there a 7 turn for C21? This part of my post may be irrelevant but I think there is a reliable 7 turn somewhere with 2 Horsemen and a FK taking the south for H3. The MOV would be relevant to because Feena would have to dance Malicia and Marth in consecutive turns. Anyways, I’ll concede this point since I’m unsure about this. I was never talking about outranging the Thoron Sorcerer since even a Sniper can outrange a non-seige mage.

Not sure why you think this means much; the Avatar can set up kills for him/herself or for other units just fine in Sirius' absence. Sirius is merely helping himself, and not his teammates, here.

Do you know of a way to have MU set up general kills for people AND get the Armscroll reliably? I mean, Fighter!MU has hammer, but for other MUs using means other than criticals do you know of a way for MU to do both?

I'm aware he can OHKO Thieves; I just don't think it means much. I didn't use the RP at all in my H4 run and had no trouble with C7; for this reason, I am fairly sure that Caeda and Catria can each do Sirius' job just fine if Arran is also around. Worst case scenario, you're losing a Seraph Robe that cuts the expected turn-count by very little.

You are overestimating Caeda against enemies she A) can’t double and B) doesn’t have effective weaponry for. And since you care so much about expected turn counts (which I still do not know how you accurately measure) all those steel lance hits and javelin tosses against thieves on forest tiles must be a bitch. Neither of them has the STR to combine with Palla for a clean 2HKO.

Also, I actually hate C7 because of all the forest tiles. Usually I just have Arran fly around using save points because I do end up missing javelin tosses.

I don't disagree that Sirius is useful for killing a Dracoknight in C9 on turn two. With or without that contribution, however, his early-game performance is qualitatively no different.

He can also draw in the southwest DK near the boss in C9, and Luke can trail behind him to KO it. I know you used MU who could double DKs in that chapter, and I think it’s reasonable to assume MU could double with RP but it provides an avenue for Luke to acquire more exp so it is a relevant contribution.

Additionally, even if all he is doing is acquiring more exp for himself (with zero direct contribution to his teammates), this is still a good thing because he will invariably make the team more robust and versatile. For example, suppose he and another unit have the same option on a map like ORKOing mage dragons in C22 as a SM. If he has an option that does not mandate him to be a SM ORKOing mage dragons then another unit that doesn’t have the same options he does can take up this post. This is a contribution from Sirius. He allows for numerous avenues for additional and/or alternative exp intake throughout game that you are ignoring because it doesn’t directly save turncounts. Technically, I could use 3 random archers/hunters in C3 to clear out DKs and call it a day but I give that exp to units I intend to use because they will eventually give me some return.

Not only are you facing WTD, but Lang is also on a throne.

Still more exp for the team as a whole and I didn’t realize Samto was doing something so important on turn 6 he can’t use the save point to ensure the KO.

Consider the turns lost in Caeda's absence to the turns lost in Sirius' absence. Fast completions of the Prologue chapters lean on Caeda to a much larger extent than do fast completions of Sirius' first few chapters on Sirius.

I’m actually kind of curious about this and someday I will try this. For now I’m going estimate and say P4 (Athena) would be a 4-5 turn with Knight!MU depending on stats, P5 would probably lose like 2-3 turns because of the nature of the hunters but maybe myrm/merc MUs are less affected, P6 (Draug) probably wouldn’t change much (worst case is like a 1 turn loss I think), P7 (Est) might be tricky but I think it could be done even if you might have to let Draug KO Est and P-8 loses maybe another 2 turns since Est + Merric would have to pull the thieves back?

But I think this argument is out of place. I could easily remove Athena and you would have a very similar turn count loss (or worse) particularly in P-5 with those stupid hunters that Caeda can’t do shit about unless you can somehow manage to protect her from all the other enemies on the map. I think you are placing far too much emphasis on the prologue.

requires a great deal of resources (dragon kills), without which he is total crap. This is babying in the same way that you consider feeding Luke his early-game kills to be babying.

If you are going by your H4 experiences you should note your Sirius wasn’t even level --/12 at the end of C21. He is easily able to hit level --/11 before the start of C15. This by the way is possible even if A) Caeda kills C6 boss, B) he’s setting kills up for Palla in C7 and C) he only gets 4-5 dragons in C13 and C14 combined (it isn’t much). He could potentially hit --/13 but perhaps that is exp concentrated to heavily into Sirius.

Luke is killing something that’s been weakened by someone else for the explicit purpose of Luke getting the kill. Sirius is ORKOing. They are nowhere near the same thing.

You’re essentially saying, “Let’s not give Sirius any exp for him to gain an adequate number of levels. That way we can say he isn’t do much early game and bitch about how he sucks 20 chapters after the one he joins in.”

Any combat unit that gains only 10 levels in 20 chapters is going to have trouble contributing. MU is only our best combat unit because he can reach ridiculous levels very quickly. Look at MU vs Luke. They are not very different statistically. It’s all in the levels, which you are denying Sirius even though he can get the exp on his own.

[Redwall]

Yet Caeda has difficulty doing this even with the Lady Sword. In fact, doesn’t she even have difficulty surviving the counter attack from them? Draug has issues surviving as well.

Caeda's using the Devil Sword, not the Lady Sword. With the Rainbow Potion, 14/13 Caeda reaches 30 Luck as a Swordmaster at very high odds, and in the event she doesn't, she still has a good chance of not self-destructing.

Sirius, Caeda, and Draug will each get a Seraph Robe if used late in the game. Surviving a Glower/Thoron is no problem.

Do you know of a way to have MU set up general kills for people AND get the Armscroll reliably? I mean, Fighter!MU has hammer, but for other MUs using means other than criticals do you know of a way for MU to do both?

Have the Avatar weaken the Generals with a Steel Axe during turn two enemy phase. If the Arms Scroll General wasn't hit during turn 2 EP, then weaken him on turn 3 PP and finish with Sirius or Caeda. Problem solved.

It wouldn't surprise me if, in his absence, Sirius' teammates wind up getting slightly less EXP; either way, Sirius' contributions in this map are certainly not "core" to getting low turn-counts in this map or subsequent ones.

You are overestimating Caeda against enemies she A) can’t double and B) doesn’t have effective weaponry for. And since you care so much about expected turn counts (which I still do not know how you accurately measure) all those steel lance hits and javelin tosses against thieves on forest tiles must be a bitch. Neither of them has the STR to combine with Palla for a clean 2HKO.

The Thieves have 30 HP and 3 Def; a L13 Catria with the RP and a LSB Energy Drop has on average 14.5 Str, enough to deal on average 20.5 damage to a Thief when using a Steel Lance with C-ranked lances against a Thief on a forest tile. Caeda obviously needs Silver Lance support to KO, but Arran can survive a round of combat against a Thief if he takes the Rainbow Potion as a DK.

If you read my post, you will note I have acknowledged that doing this without Sirius is less reliable and hurts the expected turn-count; I am only suggesting that his absence from C7 doesn't hurt that much, and that he is by no means "core" here.

He can also draw in the southwest DK near the boss in C9, and Luke can trail behind him to KO it. I know you used MU who could double DKs in that chapter, and I think it’s reasonable to assume MU could double with RP but it provides an avenue for Luke to acquire more exp so it is a relevant contribution.

Additionally, even if all he is doing is acquiring more exp for himself (with zero direct contribution to his teammates), this is still a good thing because he will invariably make the team more robust and versatile. [examples]

I said "qualitatively" for a reason; I never disputed that it was a good thing. Self-improvement helps, of course, but Sirius isn't doing anything amazing with the dragon EXP in the endgame, in contrast to Luke. Furthermore, there is an opportunity cost for having Sirius take those kills; while it may well be the optimal thing to do, Sirius' dependence on these kills weakens his case for being in the top tier if we go by the criteria presented in the OP. Neither Caeda nor Catria depend on dragon kills the way Sirius does; they can keep up using resources (kills) that are not nearly as valuable by virtue of starting in unpromoted classes.

Still more exp for the team as a whole and I didn’t realize Samto was doing something so important on turn 6 he can’t use the save point to ensure the KO.

The in-chapter save point doesn't ensure the KO anymore than does the chapter save does. It obviates the need to redo the first five turns, but it doesn't validate the Armorslayer forge in this chapter when you consider that its use against Lang probably (you're welcome to check this, as I don't want to do the arithmetic myself) causes the sixth turn to result in more resets on average (increasing the expected turn-count) compared to simply using the Wing Spear and bow forge. If you object to this line of thinking, realize that we would consider a one-turn clear at 25% odds to have an expected turn-count of four regardless of the fact that we have a save just before starting the level.

But I think this argument is out of place. I could easily remove Athena and you would have a very similar turn count loss (or worse) particularly in P-5 with those stupid hunters that Caeda can’t do shit about unless you can somehow manage to protect her from all the other enemies on the map. I think you are placing far too much emphasis on the prologue.

Athena's more or less in Caeda's league if looking strictly at Prologue performance. What puts Caeda and not Athena in the top tier is that Caeda's solid even after the Prologue.

If you are going by your H4 experiences you should note your Sirius wasn’t even level --/12 at the end of C21. He is easily able to hit level --/11 before the start of C15. This by the way is possible even if A) Caeda kills C6 boss, B) he’s setting kills up for Palla in C7 and C) he only gets 4-5 dragons in C13 and C14 combined (it isn’t much). He could potentially hit --/13 but perhaps that is exp concentrated to heavily into Sirius.

I'm simply using my experiences in H3 and H4 to inform some of my arguments. I'm not claiming Sirius is generally going to be as bad as he was in my playthrough, nor am I claiming my H4 playthrough to be 100% representative of the tier-list playstyle; my playthrough was not very optimized, nor did it allow the Rainbow Potion or the Maturity Drop, each of which significantly helps Sirius (the latter in an indirect way since it frees up a Speedwing).

Luke is killing something that’s been weakened by someone else for the explicit purpose of Luke getting the kill. Sirius is ORKOing. They are nowhere near the same thing.

Luke's first six maps are rout maps. Luke isn't getting kills solely for self-improvement; he's also contributing directly to the goals of those maps. You may claim that fielding Luke isn't optimal in the last two or three Prologue chapters, but note that in the next four chapters preceding Sirius' recruitment, the easiest thing to do to help Marth seize the throne is to just rout everyone; in these levels, Luke continues to actively help the team towards its goal (just like Sirius does in the dragon chapters).

And while you may claim him to be some rugged individualist, let me again point out that Sirius is condemned to doing odd jobs in the next few chapters (until Chapter 22, by which time you can just give him some stat-boosters) unless he gets the disproportionate number of dragon kills and the very specific training program in the preceding chapters that you prescribe, whereas the RAF units can share their dragons with others and function just fine regardless.

You’re essentially saying, “Let’s not give Sirius any exp for him to gain an adequate number of levels. That way we can say he isn’t do much early game and bitch about how he sucks 20 chapters after the one he joins in.”

Your complaints are unfounded; I have been operating under the assumption that feeding Sirius a bunch of dragon kills is the optimal thing to do (I even went out of my way in my playthrough to feed Sirius the bosskills in Chapters 7 and 12). I simply don't think that Sirius' contributions, with or without swallowing his dragon kills, are enough to put him in the top tier, since if we adopt the criteria put forth in the OP, he fits the profile of a high-tier unit--a unit "that significantly [cuts] turns with some degree of resources [...] (exp, statbooster, warped, rescue ferried) or support units that make those units capable of those strategies, [and will] not work in every scenario but [contributes largely] if utilised correctly"--much better: kills in general are resources, for the purposes of this tier list; and Sirius' contributions in the earlygame are solid but not spectacular. But since you've erected a fairly ridiculous strawman in addition to continuing to argue in the weeds, I'll assume you've conceded the basic point.

[commonguard]

Caeda's using the Devil Sword

Oh, had forgotten about this gem.

If you object to this line of thinking, realize that we would consider a one-turn clear at 25% odds to have an expected turn-count of four regardless of the fact that we have a save just before starting the level.

Your oversimplified computation of expected turn count leads me to believe you just have an aversion to using criticals and low percent hits after save points. A real computation of expected turn counts (even if we aren’t bringing benchmarks into consideration) is far more laborious as you would have to account for every hit that is not guaranteed in addition to potential contingency options you may have in the event that misses did happen, possible AI targeting order in the event random level ups may alter them, etc. And I was asking how expected turn counts were computed because I am unsure as to how a unit meeting benchmarks for certain strategies would be integrated into said computation. For ex. if a unit needs to double an enemy for the strategy to work, but the unit only has an 83% chance of reaching the doubling SPD before the chapter begins, what would be the numerical detriment to the expected turn count if you used the strategy?

There is nothing in the original post about expected turn counts; you have been the only person in this topic consistently mentioning them. For this reason, I am going by raw turn count assuming no unreliable (but still reasonable) sequences, hits or criticals are being used unless they are backed by a map save. Basically, I’m eyeballing the success rate of a chapter and only giving thought to notable hit rates. Expected turn counts also deride more impressive clears with lower raw turn counts but used a map save crit to finish sooner.

Athena's more or less in Caeda's league if looking strictly at Prologue performance. What puts Caeda and not Athena in the top tier is that Caeda's solid even after the Prologue.

I’ve been arguing against Caeda and even I don’t believe they are “more or less” in the same league. Caeda doubles thieves and takes less damage from their counters, as well as having more RES than Merric allowing for better use of the final EP in P-8. Yet even if I were to remove Athena (or pretty much anyone) from play, your turn count would be destroyed in P-5. I think you are putting too much weight to the prologue. Units do what they are meant to here and not much more. There is no reclassing so units are better than other units simply because they are in certain classes and at that point we are really just arguing which classes better in the prologue. And there is no unit (including MU) that contributes heavily towards prologue chapters (except for possibly P-8) without a specific party composition.

Luke's first six maps are rout maps. Luke isn't getting kills solely for self-improvement; he's also contributing directly to the goals of those maps. You may claim that fielding Luke isn't optimal in the last two or three Prologue chapters, but note that in the next four chapters preceding Sirius' recruitment, the easiest thing to do to help Marth seize the throne is to just rout everyone; in these levels, Luke continues to actively help the team towards its goal (just like Sirius does in the dragon chapters).

So really he has 3 maps in the prologue, does very little in those maps and for the most part is interchangeable with Rody.

C1- This map can be completed in 8 turns while deploying less than the maximum by way of PK!Cecille pulling the bandits and hunters on turn 4 and then just a hunter on turn 5. A 6 turn requires every unit I believe but I think it requires everyone to be drunk on RPs and some blessing or criticals/dodges. And a 7 turn may not require every unit depending on if you are shaving a turn by killing Lorenz or by moving more aggressively towards the village on turn 1.

C2- With the bow forge, you can fully rout without deploying a full party.

C3- Again with the bow forge, you can do the same. In fact, if you want, you can have Pirate!MU help clear out the DKs and Cav!Catria with Lady sword run with Marth, and still not have to deploy a full party in the event you don’t have the bow forge.

C3x- He’s not optimal on this map since the only thing he is likely doubling with are steel swords and then he isn’t doing much damage.

So for C1-C3 Luke could be deployed and run into a corner where he won’t be targeted and we can complete the map just fine without him even if we are using him. Luke is just improving himself for his endgame here. As far as I know, pretty much every map (except for some very short ones) after Sirius joins requires deployed units to at least do something to get the lowest turn clears, only then are units (other than MU, Sirius, Palla, Caeda and possibly Catria) even contributing to the chapter’s objective (indirectly or otherwise).

Sirius is condemned to doing odd jobs in the next few chapters (until Chapter 22, by which time you can just give him some stat-boosters) unless he gets the disproportionate number of dragon kills and the very specific training program in the preceding chapters that you prescribe, whereas the RAF units can share their dragons with others and function just fine regardless.

With a reasonable amount of exp he has more options for odd jobs than Palla does. And I can easily say you can deprive someone like Palla of exp and give them stat-boosters to do the same. All you’ve stated here is that the game is far too forgiving for mismanaging exp distribution in tandem with not maximizing exp gains among your party to the point that pretty much any unit when given stat-boosters can become competent members of your team. If this is not true, he must have been a pretty amazing unit already to become fully functional after just stat-boosters and very little exp.

Edit 28/09/2013 3:02 pm. The metric is also exp not kills, so one level for Sirius should equate to one level for anyone else, unpromoted or not. BTW there are like 55-60 dragons in C11-C14.

I simply don't think that Sirius' contributions, with or without swallowing his dragon kills, are enough to put him in the top tier, since if we adopt the criteria put forth in the OP, he fits the profile of a high-tier unit--a unit "that significantly [cuts] turns with some degree of resources [...] (exp, statbooster, warped, rescue ferried) or support units that make those units capable of those strategies, [and will] not work in every scenario but [contributes largely] if utilised correctly"--much better

The description of “some degree” was vague so I had assumed a unit was able to require a reasonable amount of exp + boosters (why is warp even listed as a resource?) and still be in Top. Especially when considering a unit like Catria getting all the promoted kills she gets during C3-C6 (some of these are kills that Sirius would very much appreciate). The reason I said Luke fit High better was because he needs Armscrolls, probably multiple Speedwings and possible a Draco shield or Angelic Robe in addition to being babied for a large portion of the game to do what he does; still if you want to argue him for Top tier I assure you I will not impede the motion.

Sirius is more than capable of contributing effectively in the early game despite being destitute of exp. His earlier access to promoted classes ensures he is capable of contributing to low turn clears of early game regardless of team composition; this fact is corroborated by him being used in virtually every H3 efficiency/LTC playthrough documented on this site. And come the dragon chapters, he can start ORKOing dragons for the exp gains he was being deprived and continue to actively contribute towards low turn clears for the rest of the game.

You mentioned that Sirius was not “core”. If he is not core where exactly is Palla “core”? C3 is a given due to her placement on the map, her assumed role can be done by Catria in C3x. I am sure if Sirius is not core to a map in C4-C9 then neither is Palla. I’m not sure what constitutes as “core” in your mind.

Sirius and his access to promoted classes and stellar weapon ranks are a core part of the early game chapters as is Palla and her access to Silver lances + doubling.

I don't have much to say about anything after “degree of resources” since A) I’m not aware of any strategies that heavily involve support bonuses (certainly not ones that involve Sirius’ support options) and B) utilized correctly is vague and I think was only intended to apply to some “outside of the box” stuff like SM!Linde with Levin swords.

Edited September 28, 2013 by commonguard