link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[Tables]

Whoops. http://puu.sh/7lA6v.jpg is what I meant to post.

[Espinosa]

Ah, good. I understand what you mean now.

[AnonymousSpeed]

So no one wants to host a Max Stats game between me and Randa?

[General Horace]

I would if you'd be willing to wait till, uh thursday or friday

[General Horace]

im pretty sure this is true, but just to doublecheck, Parity can be combined not only with renewal, but with Shade and Parity as well, correct? Well I guess and something like Boon.

Also a Parity-Deadeye Sniper still gets the accuracy boost right? It seems terrible and i'd never do it, I'm just trying to clarify some things.

Edited March 9, 2014 by General Horace

[Espinosa]

If a Shade/Provoke user has Parity, we notify about it as if there was no Parity, but once discovered, the other side can ignore Shade/Provoke (if the turns haven't passed yet). Yeah, it's pretty stupid.

And yeah, I suppose so? I think I skipped Parity on my LTC run so I'm not sure if I can test this.

[Elieson]

If attackign a parity user with a deadeye user maintains the accuracy boost, then a sniper with deadeye and parity should still maintain the accuracy boost (but lol forget Sleep)

[Tables]

Another Shade Provoke question: What happens if I put both on the same unit? They don't 'cancel' because they aren't opposite effects. Logically, using the rules as best I understand them, both effects would just occur occur: The opponent can't attack anyone but the unit with provoke, and they can't attack the unit with provoke. In other words, the opponent is forced to attack with a Nihil/Parity user, and if they have some, they have to skip their turn, as they have no valid target.

This is clearly a dumb way to resolve the issue, and so rules should probably be in place about it. Or it could be seen as another indication that Shade/Parity as currently operated might need changing.

[Espinosa]

They're mutually exclusive effects and as such should cancel each other out. I wouldn't allow such a unit to be approved in the first place, though.

[Tables]

They're mutually exclusive effects and as such should cancel each other out.

I respectfully disagree. You can rule that they're mutually exclusive (which currently isn't a rule in place - so might be something worth stating somewhere (even though I know it's a pretty gamey combo to try and come up with)), but being mutually exclusive doesn't imply they cancel each other out. Giffca and Tibarn are mutually exclusive but that doesn't imply if I tried to field both I'd end up with a 3 man team.

[Espinosa]

Evolution of our treatment of Shade/Provoke was something like:

1. Can we do anything with these skills?

2. Let's make it so that Shade lasts until all other units are KO'd, while Provoke lasts until the user of Provoke is taken out.

3. Number 2 turned out to be a catastrophe as we also had the option to choose the range at which we attack at the time, so Shade!Ilyana was terribly broken with her siege tomes and a full stall team supporting her.

4. When I did the little draft tourney for FE9 maximum stats, and since Reyson healing impenetrable Shinon was a danger there, Provoke was limited to 1 turn and Shade worked until 2 allies were KO'd. Terribly selective indeed, and actually I forgot to say that before that we tried out the Shade functioning being linked to the number of allies alive in a game or two before then.

From the start, the opinion that Shade/Provoke should do absolutely nothing was expressed, since these two skills don't make the transition into LA settings as smoothly as the "pure" combat skills like Wrath, Aether, Vantage... However, I felt that it was possible to implement those with a bit of imagination and a bit of reason, making sure they don't break or ruin anything. Before the tourney, it felt right that having them function for the first two turns defending doesn't break anything and yet lets you use the 5 SP while serving some of the units you may want to conceal until the midgame (for example, untransformed Laguz). Some interesting tactics appeared as a result, such as scouting for Nihil with Rolf or a Sage so that the Nihil user is eliminated until endgame when the Resolve action intends to start.

If you have any other thoughts about a different application for the skills, I'd like to hear it out.

Of course, making the skills do absolutely nothing is always an option and doesn't really hurt the metagame terribly - some units like Nasir, Ranulf et al. will inevitably fall out of play, but so far it seems like Shade/Provoke generally don't dictate that certain things absolutely must be done in the team building process, which is big progress since the days of Ilyana domination.

I think Shade is basically "decreased priority" while Provoke is "increased priority", and if you add up, say, -2 and +2 you get zero; no effect. I just wouldn't allow such a team to get through, so I'm not sure if adding a rule to notify of this is even necessary - it's like warning high school students not to divide by zero.

[Tables]

Thanks for the history of the skills. I'm not saying that they should be removed necessarily, just that as they currently are, they cause some rules issues. Other problems have been noted (such as interactions with Parity and a Nihil + Shade user being attacked by a Parity user), and while they're resolvable, it's slightly ugly.

I think you addition metaphor makes sense, but I'd say that currently that isn't how the skills effect is worded. You COULD do it that way, but then you'd need to properly define priority and the rules about it, which seems excessive when the intent is clear. A simple 'Shade/Provoke are not allowed on the same unit' would do the job.

Although out of curiousity what happens if we do define (hopefully solid) priority rules?

Each unit starts with a priority of 0. After each turn, Priority moves towards zero by 1 point, if not already at 0. A unit with Shade gets -2 priority. A unit with provoke gets +2 priority. You may only attack the enemy unit(s) with highest priority. A unit with either Nihil or Parity equipped may always ignore priority.

I think that works for everything... maybe?

[Espinosa]

Yeah, but I don't see the need to introduce a completely new concept with numbers of all things when we can just say "those two can't work together", and it's pretty clear that they can't, though some of us might still think they shouldn't be working in any instance at all.

[Espinosa]

On a second thought, you know what could be cool? If we allowed the players to choose when Shade/Provoke are in effect. With the current rules of "active for 2 turns defending" retained but just not started automatically when the battle starts.

[Baldrick]

That sounds neat. You could still choose to have it activate as it currently does before the battle starts, right?

[Espinosa]

That sounds neat. You could still choose to have it activate as it currently does before the battle starts, right?

Yeah, like informing your host about it when you send your team in.

[Hawkeye]

That honestly feels like too much creative license on our part to me.

[Psych]

True, but I like the idea of it. It would allow for some heavy cheese if you run Provoke/Vantage/Resolve and just set up a time bomb for late game. It would also help sages a lot, as you could choose to Seige someone then activate Shade for no counters.

[Tables]

Yeah, but I don't see the need to introduce a completely new concept with numbers of all things when we can just say "those two can't work together", and it's pretty clear that they can't, though some of us might still think they shouldn't be working in any instance at all.

But... you're the one who introduced the priority concept. Not to mention it wasn't the point of the post, it was just an aside.

[Elieson]

I'm not interested in turning Shade/Provoke into command skills since they aren't command skills in the game.

[Tables]

I'm not interested in turning Shade/Provoke into command skills since they aren't command skills in the game.

They also don't affect the player for two turns in the game, or affect the player at all really.

[Espinosa]

We don't even have a clear idea what they actually do in-game! I'd ask aku chi if he knows but he's nowhere to be found.

[Psych]

They likely make it if there's another viable target, the enemy will attack them before the Shade target and vice versa for Provoke.

It'd likely just be easier to turn Shade into Stillness from FE10.

[Tables]

They likely make it if there's another viable target, the enemy will attack them before the Shade target and vice versa for Provoke.

It'd likely just be easier to turn Shade into Stillness from FE10.

Stillness takes up 25 CAP though... kind of a lot :P.

[Psych]

True, but FE10 has higher caps due to third tiers