I just lost some faith in humanity.

[FrostyFireMage]

http://news.yahoo.com/iowa-town-defends-bullying-of-autistic-teen-203249332.html

Just...why? Bullying is never justified. Never.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Frosty Fire Sage

[Djeets]

that's just how shitty reality is...no one will ever want to side with you at all times.

no matter how things go, the distreatment of your rights is what they always wanted to justify.. always..

[Rehab]

Man, this kind of story gets me feeling some little guilt pangs, or a healthy dose of fremdschämen at the least.

Back in primary education, from elementary up through even high school, I remember a bunch of kids who weren't diagnosed with anything, and who didn't seem mean-spirited in the least, but who were honest-to-fuck awkward as hell and played it loud, and who'd be described pretty commonly as "just plain annoying" by just about any other kid, and probably even by some teachers. Even though they wouldn't really attack anybody for anything (or at least no more than anybody else, or without provocation or whatever), they'd just constantly blurt out stuff that'd either make people laugh their asses off in the worst ways, or would just get them told "man shut the hell up already"/perceived as a jerk, and most of them didn't seem to even get how other people looked at them.

I'm talking about, I guess, not quite something that would make even your average kid go "okay this person is obviously operating on a different level than I am,"* but like "there's no way this person is for real. They are putting this garbage on, and being a shitlord about it"

*IIRC there were kids who were like that and got made fun of, but they were just as likely to be defended, at least by the teacher

Looking back, I'm wondering if they either had been diagnosed with something on the autism spectrum and hadn't made it public, if it had been made public and it was a point of ridicule, or if they had something that went undiagnosed. And, assuming that to be the case, I wish that I could've caught on, and/or done more than just try to not laugh at them.

Mental health education here is kind of ass

Edited November 22, 2013 by Rehab

[Espinosa]

The problem with bullying is that it's always okay unless it's being done to you.

And once again, like is always the case with news stories, we have no idea what happened exactly and any conclusions we might make are unreliable. How likely is it that an autistic teenager ("autism" and "teenager" is one hell of a deadly combination) is largely responsible for being treated the way he is? Highly likely no doubt. In such an event, he could be taught how to behave in a less obnoxious way, or he could be trained to defend himself (getting him to tone himself down sounds safer and probably more reliable depending on how severe his motor impairments are).

Since at large people don't mind bullying unless the victim is somebody they care for, you either learn a fancy move like Casey Hynes did (verbal comebacks won't be effective against those faggoty teens his age even if done right) or have somebody menacing do the threatening for you.

I mean, as an autistic he should be prepared for a lifetime of bullying because it won't ever stop, just changing in name (discrimination/harassment/sarcasm/rejection/isolation/what have you), so it's clear whom the parents should be focusing on first and foremost here. Kids change, they grow up, but bullying will stay while undergoing minor transformations.

[Djeets]

while this is cruel for me to say...

the bullied autistic kid must also learnt to defend themselves when bullied..

i mean, sooner or later.. they can't always rely on the others just because they're autist.

[Chiki]

And once again, like is always the case with news stories, we have no idea what happened exactly and any conclusions we might make are unreliable. How likely is it that an autistic teenager ("autism" and "teenager" is one hell of a deadly combination) is largely responsible for being treated the way he is? Highly likely no doubt. In such an event, he could be taught how to behave in a less obnoxious way, or he could be trained to defend himself (getting him to tone himself down sounds safer and probably more reliable depending on how severe his motor impairments are).

Lol. Sickening.

Yeah, autists are mostly responsible for getting bullied because of how they present themselves. By that logic, as are women for wearing dressing with cleavage and getting raped as a result, and so on. And the people on SF think you're wise. That gives me a good laugh lol.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Chiki

[Espinosa]

Lol. Sickening.

Yeah, autists are mostly responsible for getting bullied because of how they present themselves. By that logic, as are women for wearing dressing with cleavage and getting raped as a result, and so on. And the people on SF think you're wise. That gives me a good laugh lol.

'Being autistic' may serve as a partial explanation for deviant behaviour but does not excuse it. Autistics who have invested effort into more or less fitting socially do not approve the irresponsible brats who blame their troubles on their diagnosis and continue causing harm to people without giving a damn. This applies to you too by the way; no surprise you fail to understand this (and just about anything else). The fact that it's a cruel world we live in isn't changing ever no matter what sociocultural and political changes occur; adapting is the only form of survival possible. Average man's natural sense of morality is that the hurt done to me is bad, all else is fine, and any sustained effort to change things won't have any universal impact even if we all somehow come to agree. Not sure if the women in cleavage comparison should be addressed; don't really want to waste my time on master of logic manchild stuff. Try pestering your parents to pay attention to you instead?

It's a good thing you come to this thread though, because that kid... it's a younger version of you, isn't it? I've honestly been curious how you go through your daily life without being constantly and severely beaten up. You don't seem like the person who'd only be outrageous online. Do contribute at least a line of information to the topic that isn't another jab at me (which does not affect me in the slightest, I hope you realise by now).

Not sure what you were even trying to bring up there in the brackets, but I'm sure there are plenty of people here who don't find me one bit appealing intellectually; I guess there's no point in trying to impress an online community whom you're likely to lose all sight of as soon as you lose interest, which could be next year, longer than that or even tomorrow, maybe anywhere in between. I certainly wouldn't entrust my assessment as a person from any angle to a mentally inadequate person such as yourself however.

[Sifer]

Please do not reference Yahoo News, they are terrible news reporters.

Go for the original source instead:

http://whotv.com/2013/11/19/teen-bullied-neighbors-say-bullying-justified/

Remember justification is only needed for the group doing the action. The kid's doing the bullying see the autist's odd/hostile action as reason enough. The autist need not be consulted about it. But then, this starts a viscous cycle, with one group giving the other reason to why these hostile actions occur.

But perhaps a program can be put into place that that teaches that autist can't fully understand the impact of their actions so the students know more about the condition and not bully so much based on the autist's actions

Edited November 22, 2013 by sifer

[Steampunk]

As a person with Asperger's, let me first point out that calling him "autistic" is misleading. While Asperger's is on the Austistic spectrum, it is on the high-functioning end, which has much milder symptoms than what most people consider "autism." I am not trying to trivialize his disorder, but I don't think it's accurate to say he has no control over himself. While I was very much oblivious to many aspects of social interaction (sarcasm, implied meaning, etc) as a child, I could tell when someone was getting agitated. Maybe not as fast as someone without Asperger's, but I could see when someone had enough. Children with Asperger's may have certain social challenges, but we are not stupid and I don't think we can dismiss misconduct on his part as "he doesn't know any better."

I do believe it is inappropriate to mock someone's disability, and the children should have handled it differently. I don't believe it's fair to tell them to suck it up and deal with someone provoking them just because he has a disability. That can very easily teach the child his disability is nice crutch, which opens the door for him to continue inappropriate behavior without any fear of reprimand or correction. I don't know how actively involved the school or parents are in teaching him how to act in public, but I think that's ultimately the best solution. I spent a lot of time in high school (and in my personal life) learning how to interact with others and how to read body language. These things can be taught: I know that first hand. If he legitimately cannot tell when people are annoyed, I think the child needs to learn these things himself. Going through life as an irritant to people around you is not good for anyone; least of all him.

[Lord Raven]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Aspergers isn't on the spectrum anymore?

Furthermore, bullying is wrong both ways, and I can KINDA see where the parents are coming from. They shouldn't support fighting back, but I've known my fair share of kids with Aspergers that used it as a crutch to be an asshole, and that's pretty much exactly what this kid seems to be doing.

[FrostyFireMage]

As a person with Asperger's, let me first point out that calling him "autistic" is misleading. While Asperger's is on the Austistic spectrum, it is on the high-functioning end, which has much milder symptoms than what most people consider "autism." I am not trying to trivialize his disorder, but I don't think it's accurate to say he has no control over himself. While I was very much oblivious to many aspects of social interaction (sarcasm, implied meaning, etc) as a child, I could tell when someone was getting agitated. Maybe not as fast as someone without Asperger's, but I could see when someone had enough. Children with Asperger's may have certain social challenges, but we are not stupid and I don't think we can dismiss misconduct on his part as "he doesn't know any better."

I do believe it is inappropriate to mock someone's disability, and the children should have handled it differently. I don't believe it's fair to tell them to suck it up and deal with someone provoking them just because he has a disability. That can very easily teach the child his disability is nice crutch, which opens the door for him to continue inappropriate behavior without any fear of reprimand or correction. I don't know how actively involved the school or parents are in teaching him how to act in public, but I think that's ultimately the best solution. I spent a lot of time in high school (and in my personal life) learning how to interact with others and how to read body language. These things can be taught: I know that first hand. If he legitimately cannot tell when people are annoyed, I think the child needs to learn these things himself. Going through life as an irritant to people around you is not good for anyone; least of all him.

I have Asperger's too (doesn't really impede my social skills though, sometimes I forget I even have it), and this is pretty much my point.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Frosty Fire Sage

[Dwarfishh]

Right, I'm out. Bullying is a matter of perspective (a lot of people think I get bullied, but I make more jokes than anyone) But when someone gets punched, how do you defend that?

[Rehab]

I kinda think both parties could (slash could have, slash should have) stand to get some education on the problem, really. I think that one of the reasons why bullying/harassment that looks like this happens is that some (not all by a long shot, (as in this wouldn't cover bullies who seek out quiet kids and abuse them or anything,) but some) of the kids/people acting as bullies don't realize that the person they're ganging up on isn't being intentionally offensive (speaking not necessarily with 100% regard to this specific case, here), but rather are somehow wired differently, and how so. (that how so part might be even more important)

Even when, in my experience, I was told that some kid was, say, autistic, I wasn't given something like a really robust explanation, like along the lines that "their brain is, while neither objectively inferior or superior, biologically different in A, B, and C ways, and thus they tend to process/respond to/act on information in X, Y, and Z ways that may be markedly different from the range of interpretations that you're used to." I'd have been lucky to get a lesson like that offered in an AP Psych class in high school (which means I would've all but had to actively seek it out myself). I was usually just told something like "they're autistic/have Asperger's/social anxiety disorder/are different (ugh), give them some leeway."

If I were an ignorant (read: untaught) kid, and all I was told was that, and if I then saw them act in a way that didn't seem to be meeting me halfway like I'd expect from anybody else (read: if they seemed "annoying"), even if it probably didn't look like that to them and that wasn't their intent, there's a depressingly high chance I'd just end up going, "this kid's just an asshole! And they're either trying to tell me that they're not (and lying), or that they're not going to do anything about it. Screw this shitlord"

And frankly, teaching people not to bully sounds more worthwhile to me in general than leaving it at teaching people how to deal with bullies. I have a hard time imagining it becoming totally idiot-proof or asshole-proof, to be sure, not the least of many possible reasons why being influence from outside the teaching environment (like parents), but I think there's a difference between a measure of reasoned pessimism/projecting a margin of error, of sorts, and going "aw, why even try, they're/we're all gonna be fucked up anway."

(not that there's no value in teaching people how to deal with a bully, but an ounce of prevention something something cure etc)

Edited November 22, 2013 by Rehab

[euklyd]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Aspergers isn't on the spectrum anymore?

It has changed, but not quite like that.

Now, there is no such thing as "Aspergers" as a diagnosis. There's simply high-functioning autistic (Asperger Syndrome was replaced by diagnosing autism on a severity scale (sometime this year, IIRC)).

Other than that, my thoughts were expressed just fine by

But when someone gets punched, how do you defend that?

[Steampunk]

I kinda think both parties could (slash could have, slash should have) stand to get some education on the problem, really. I think that one of the reasons why bullying/harassment that looks like this happens is that some (not all by a long shot, (as in this wouldn't cover bullies who seek out quiet kids and abuse them or anything,) but some) of the kids/people acting as bullies don't realize that the person they're ganging up on isn't being intentionally offensive (speaking not necessarily with 100% regard to this specific case, here), but rather are somehow wired differently, and how so. (that how so part might be even more important)

Even when, in my experience, I was told that some kid was, say, autistic, I wasn't given something like a really robust explanation, like along the lines that "their brain is, while neither objectively inferior or superior, biologically different in A, B, and C ways, and thus they tend to process/respond to/act on information in X, Y, and Z ways that may be markedly different from the range of interpretations that you're used to." I'd have been lucky to get a lesson like that offered in an AP Psych class in high school (which means I would've all but had to actively seek it out myself). I was usually just told something like "they're autistic/have Asperger's/social anxiety disorder/are different (ugh), give them some leeway."

If I were an ignorant (read: untaught) kid, and all I was told was that, and if I then saw them act in a way that didn't seem to be meeting me halfway like I'd expect from anybody else (read: if they seemed "annoying"), even if it probably didn't look like that to them and that wasn't their intent, there's a depressingly high chance I'd just end up going, "this kid's just an asshole! And they're either trying to tell me that they're not (and lying), or that they're not going to do anything about it. Screw this shitlord"

Yeah, unfortunately the latter is the way it normally goes. Better or worse, there's a certain way every person is supposed to act. Even more unfortunate, I have always been told by teachers, rehabilitation workers, etc that I should never tell people about my Asperger's: to always pass myself off as normal. It's annoying that people with physical disabilities get an outpouring of support whilst people aren't "allowed" to have mental disabilities, but c'est la vie. I suppose that makes sense though: it's simpler for the minority of AS people to accommodate "normal" people than to educate each person about AS so they know what to expect.

And frankly, teaching people not to bully sounds more worthwhile to me in general than leaving it at teaching people how to deal with bullies. I have a hard time imagining it becoming totally idiot-proof or asshole-proof, to be sure, not the least of many possible reasons why being influence from outside the teaching environment (like parents), but I think there's a difference between a measure of reasoned pessimism/projecting a margin of error, of sorts, and going "aw, why even try, they're/we're all gonna be fucked up anway."

(not that there's no value in teaching people how to deal with a bully, but an ounce of prevention something something cure etc)

It's an ideal solution, but it relies solely on every parent making an effort. Sadly, there are too many people who either don't care or refuse to accept that their child is a public hazard for this to be realistic. So long as there are people who don't actually parent their kids, bullying isn't going away.

[deleted35362]

based on the defenses, one could argue that people thought that the autistic teenager may have been doing or saying things to invike negative reactions in those aggressors in the hopes that his mental condition would act as a "barrier" to hide behind. POSSIBLY. obviously i don't know much of anything about what happened, but the "i have this mental illness, so i'm excused!!" claim is just something that...HAPPENS. and a lot of people know that it happens so they consider that possibility.

as for the title of this topic, keep in mind that it was said that two students did acknowledge that what they did was wrong and apologized. from what i see they weren't really pressured or forced into doing that.

[Percivalé]

people don't "invite" abuse

people abuse

let that sink in

[deleted35362]

people don't "invite" abuse

people abuse

let that sink in

of course lev but people will just have that point of view. it's one of those things that initially makes sense to people who don't gvie very much thought.

[Lord Raven]

people don't "invite" abuse

people abuse

let that sink in

No, people do both. Not everyone being bullied is faultless, not that it justifies bullying but it serves to explain it in some cases.

Just because we've all been bullied before doesn't mean we were always in the right.

[Aizenberg]

everything sucks. everyone sucks. thats life for ya. watch star trek tng

[Axie]

people don't "invite" abuse

people abuse

let that sink in

I like you.

It does sound like the kid can be pretty rude at times but punching is never the solution and posting a demeaning video is kinda unexcusable too. The parents fighting with each other over this is ridiculous because they are not kids and should be able to understand each other's concerns. The bullies need to learn that they are being bullies regardless of that kid's own wrongdoings and that they should never be bullies - there are other ways to deal with things. And the boy with Asperger's needs to learn to not be rude (which may or may not be related to his condition, really) not because "it invites abuse" but because being rude is a form of abuse itself - calling another kid nasty names will hurt their feelings.

The silliest thing though is the principal having the kid disciplined for intolerance instead of bullying... which is so transparently a semantic cop-out just so nobody can complain about it.

[Percivalé]

No, people do both. Not everyone being bullied is faultless, not that it justifies bullying but it serves to explain it in some cases.Just because we've all been bullied before doesn't mean we were always in the right.

Groans

If someone decides to be an asshole to someone and gets bullied back, then yeah, I can see where you're coming from. But if you're being an asshole to someone, that's you choosing to abuse them and of course people are gonna be assholes back to you. But bullying someone for having a disability like autism before, y'know, telling them that what they're doing may be perceived as rude to people is shitty and I hope you're not defending that.

[Lord Raven]

Reading the article I saw that the kid with autism gave a pretty vicious insult. There's a difference between just being rude and giving a vicious insult - which is incredibly rude and you don't have to have autism to know that. And seeing as the kid had a bit of a history in this, the context exists to make this a much more murky situation than yall are making it seem.

I'm not giving the punching a free pass. I understand where he's coming from and clearly he is growing up in an environment that encourages these reactions, but I don't condone it. Yet, you have to look at everything in the situation and not just the fact that an autistic kid got punched. I don't think he should get a free pass for being autistic, either, because he's functioning enough to be in the regular classes with kids. I agree these kids should be educated on the matter especially since they have someone like that in their class, but I hardly believe that the autistic kid can be absolved of all blame simply due to autism. It's not like he's being rude to the extent that they're asking the teacher their age or other things that are considered rude socially. He said something that was offending enough to get clocked in the face. There's a difference.

[FionordeQuester]

As someone with Asburger's myself, I too am not inclined to say that this kid was blameless. I mean really, with Asburger's...it means that my mind almost always wanders off in class, and sometimes I have a hard time telling the implied meaning of a message rather than it's literal meaning. That being said, it doesn't take a genius to tell that openly insulting someone is both nasty and stupid, and I frankly think that using his Asburger's as an excuse is doing a disservice to him, who does indeed need to learn to be careful, and me, who wants to be seen as a competent human being rather than someone who constantly needs accommodations to be done for him. And for that doctor to say that I CAN'T control my involuntary movements? No, just no.

That said though, I still would assign more than half of the blame on the bullies on this one, because punching someone is one thing, but posting a video to humiliate someone and destroy their reputation? That's a kind of wrong that takes more than anger to go through with. And the guy who said he was PROUD of his nephew?!?

Edited November 24, 2013 by FionordeQuester

[Loki Laufeyson]

Thing is with the bullied, they tend to act out if someone as much as approaches them. I was a wee bit like that when i was an ankle biter, and i certainly knew someone in high school who was like that. I believe she had Cerebral Palsy. Since i didnt know her prior to high school, im not certain how life was like for her, but i was safe to assume she was often at the ass end of people's nasty remarks. As such, she ended up developing a massive chip on her shoulder and got downright nasty to people even when they were trying to help her. Not saying this is what the kid in the article is doing (but it seems likely), but kids develop these really horrible defense mechanisms and hurl back a lot of shit towards others. Its the old "taste of their own medicine" thing and its a vicious cycle.

What these parents defending the bullying need to do is look at the big picture. If the Asperger's Kid is being a shit, theres probably a reason for it. And this actually doesnt justify other kids being a shit to Asperger's Kid. Asperger's Kid probably does act out just because. But so what? Does that mean people get to be cunts right back? Thats perpetuating bad behavior on all ends! Asperger's Kid needs to learn to cut out the bullshit and the others need to learn to stop being jackasses.