Why does Serenes Forest dislike Owain and Tharja?

[Jave]

I hate every time this thread comes up, because Tharja is my favorite character in the game yet these topics make me feel awful because you guys probably think I'm a horrible person.

[Skynstein]

Tharja makes me chuckle. I have a morbid sense of humor so there you go. Henry gets a barrel of guffaws from me.

Owain is a cool guy who doesnt afraid of anything. Hes my favorite male kid next to Gerome. I love me some Owain.

FUCK THE POLICE!

I was going to say /thread but I got a warning for it, but yeah, it's pretty much it. Tharja's "child abuse" is child's play next to what I've seen on other Japanese works... And, not every character in the game needs to be a goody two-shoes or a lovable bastard.

Owain wields the blade, so he gets extra points. However, I don't like his references to past FE games. FE isn't the most known of the Nintendo franchises, so most of those references are wasted. And there are a lot of people who picked up this game without having heard of FE before... Well, at least he's not all puns, even though I find Henry's puns to be more fun.

I don't know... I'm biased towards first gen characters, so generally my opinion of them is better.

[RJWalker]

I was going to say /thread but I got a warning for it, but yeah, it's pretty much it. Tharja's "child abuse" is child's play next to what I've seen on other Japanese works... And, not every character in the game needs to be a goody two-shoes or a lovable bastard.

True, but unlike, say, Lifis, who's presented as a bastard and you're not supposed to like him or find him funny at all, Tharja is supposed to, uh, 'waifu' and likeable and all that. It is clear from the game that we're supposed to find her endearing or even *cringe* marry her for it which is disgusting.

[Aplauserlol]

They are mainly popular for their looks.

Yeah I know I like Tharja, but I'm not delusional and know exactly why she is liked. As for Owain, some of his fans try to cloud things by saying people like his humor and references etc, but majority of his popularity is based on his looks and the popular opinion of him being the best looking guy from the game.

As for what I think of them.....

Well I love Tharja I personally find her very funny and even endearing as you can see in her Summer Scramble, she is also very memorable and different, you know you can decipher her easily from the rest of the cast.

Owain on the other hand I can't stand. I honestly have no clue why he is the most popular character from the game, I don't see all the appeal that everyone else does. Sure he is very good looking, but that is not going to justify an entire opinion of him and determine whether I like him or not. Sure he is one of if not the most memorable from the game, but in my opinion it is for all the wrong reasons.

[amadeuscho]

Yeah I mean child abuse is pretty funny

No but the situations in which it occurs in game are fundamentally unserious. You can tell this just by the music, it's meant to be a joke.

I was going to say /thread but I got a warning for it, but yeah, it's pretty much it. Tharja's "child abuse" is child's play next to what I've seen on other Japanese works... And, not every character in the game needs to be a goody two-shoes or a lovable bastard.

I agree it's no worse than other Japanese related work I've seen.

I hate every time this thread comes up, because Tharja is my favorite character in the game yet these topics make me feel awful because you guys probably think I'm a horrible person.

Tharja also has plenty of supporters, so I would worry too much about it. Me being one of them.

True, but unlike, say, Lifis, who's presented as a bastard and you're not supposed to like him or find him funny at all, Tharja is supposed to, uh, 'waifu' and likeable and all that. It is clear from the game that we're supposed to find her endearing or even *cringe* marry her for it which is disgusting.

People also are reading into the support conversations in the wrong way. First of all, Tharja is a dark mage, so she isn't meant to be inherently likeable, as there should be shades of grey to her character (as there is for Henry). What someone finds likeable for the character in order for them to be their wife/husband is subjective. Not every likes the same type of character.

And from the way it's written, it seems to be that the hexes aren't child abuse. She's testing Noire's abilities as a dark mage, and namely her resistance. I would guess that's how Tharja was trained. But Tharja's future self specifically wanted Noire not to be a dark mage, and that's what Tharja learns. It's also out there in the dialogue. The game isn't subtle about this at all:

• Tharja: ...I think I've come to understand the motives of my future self.
• Noire: What?
• Tharja: I don't want you dealing in hexes. The dark arts carry with them tremendous risks. My future self knew as much...
• Noire: You think that she was worried for my safety? That...she loved me?
• Tharja: Can't say. Not about her, at least. ...But I love you, if that helps.
• Noire: Mother...
• Tharja: Just don't expect to me to say it often! ...Or maybe ever again. And just because hexes are off the table doesn't mean I have nothing to teach you. There are more ways than hexing to skin a cat. ...Or other things. Heh. So pay attention, and try to follow along.

So to recap. C support: Starts hexing. B support: hexing Noire. A support: No hexing Noire, no longer wishes to make her a dark mage. It's a progression. The individual supports are not meant to be taken as isolated incidents.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Kozaki got thrown all the class designs so he just drew Tharja based on that

As far as this game's design goes I'm a lot more angry at the art director (iirc he did the class designs) than Kozaki since the former is the ones that made all the decisions while Kozaki's just doing a job

I just checked Knights of Iris, and I guess you're right. Now what bugs me is that there's beta art of Tharja (that isn't hideous) that has her dressed somewhat normally in there.

They are mainly popular for their looks.

As for Owain, some of his fans try to cloud things by saying people like his humor and references etc, but majority of his popularity is based on his looks and the popular opinion of him being the best looking guy from the game.

Well I love Tharja I personally find her very funny and even endearing as you can see in her Summer Scramble, she is also very memorable and different, you know you can decipher her easily from the rest of the cast.

Huh? I could care less about the way Owain looks. Swap around Owain and Kellam's personalities, and then see who's more popular.

Were Tharja's Avatar and Nowi scramble supports memorable? Yes. Were they something I don't want to remember? Very yes.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Czar_Yoshi

[eclipse]

Owain feels like he's trying too hard, and Tharja is an interesting character who's held back by a stereotype. I pair her with Lon'qu for a reason!

[shadowofchaos]

And from the way it's written, it seems to be that the hexes aren't child abuse. She's testing Noire's abilities as a dark mage, and namely her resistance. I would guess that's how Tharja was trained. But Tharja's future self specifically wanted Noire not to be a dark mage, and that's what Tharja learns. It's also out there in the dialogue. The game isn't subtle about this at all:

• Tharja: ...I think I've come to understand the motives of my future self.
• Noire: What?
• Tharja: I don't want you dealing in hexes. The dark arts carry with them tremendous risks. My future self knew as much...
• Noire: You think that she was worried for my safety? That...she loved me?
• Tharja: Can't say. Not about her, at least. ...But I love you, if that helps.
• Noire: Mother...
• Tharja: Just don't expect to me to say it often! ...Or maybe ever again. And just because hexes are off the table doesn't mean I have nothing to teach you. There are more ways than hexing to skin a cat. ...Or other things. Heh. So pay attention, and try to follow along.

So to recap. C support: Starts hexing. B support: hexing Noire. A support: No hexing Noire, no longer wishes to make her a dark mage. It's a progression. The individual supports are not meant to be taken as isolated incidents.

False. If you are to take Tharja's spouse supports in combination with Noire's father supports and Noire's supports with her, "Hexes are off the table" are referring to *TEACHING* her hexes... not using them on her... or her father. More evident in the Japanese version.

[サーリャ]

つ、つまらないことを言ったわ。▼

それより…呪術は教えたくないけど

ほかに仕込むことがたくさんあるわ。▼

しっかりと…ついてきなさい。▼

She still gets nose curses and the like... which means still "comedic" child abuse.

Why the hell are we arguing specifics when Noire's character description pretty much outright states she's abused? And that Present!Tharja isn't *THAT* much better? If they meant to write her as getting better with her personality with her family than her future self, they outright failed if you have to literally nitpick at their translation that she MIGHT have stopped hexing Noire, when it's completely contradicted by her father taking the curses for her.

You are literally getting me worked up just like in the Smash Bros. Thread when you were stating Lucina was Japan's poster girl for Awakening.

Edited November 30, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[RJWalker]

People also are reading into the support conversations in the wrong way. First of all, Tharja is a dark mage,

What does that have to do with, like, anything. Previous Dark Mages have been perfectly likeable characters with shady pasts.

And the way she hexes Hoire totally isn't child abuse. Right. Because casting a curse to make her child have a constantly runny nose totally is something every normal parent does, right?

Noire even wishes female Avatar was her mom instead. She shows all the traits of an abused child. You can't make excuses for Tharja.

What's worse is that she's the developers favourite characters. Not just one but pretty much every developer. And the reason they give is that she's 'strong'. Pretty much every developer gives that as the reason. Yeah, right. We all know why she's their (and a pretty sizeable number of people's) favourite character.

[Light-Heart]

False. If you are to take Tharja's spouse supports in combination with Noire's father supports and Noire's supports with her, "Hexes are off the table" are referring to *TEACHING* her hexes... not using them on her... or her father. More evident in the Japanese version.

[サーリャ]

つ、つまらないことを言ったわ。▼

それより…呪術は教えたくないけど

ほかに仕込むことがたくさんあるわ。▼

しっかりと…ついてきなさい。▼

She still gets nose curses and the like... which means still "comedic" child abuse.

Why the hell are we arguing specifics when Noire's character description pretty much outright states she's abused? And that Present!Tharja isn't *THAT* much better? If they meant to write her as getting better with her personality with her family than her future self, they outright failed if you have to literally nitpick at their translation that she MIGHT have stopped hexing Noire, when it's completely contradicted by her father taking the curses for her.

You are literally getting me worked up just like in the Smash Bros. Thread when you were stating Lucina was Japan's poster girl for Awakening.

^ Thank You

You can't push one of Tharja's biggest character flaws underneath the carpet like it doesn't matter, because it does.

Edited November 30, 2013 by glenncoco

[Sartek]

I have no problem with Owain personnaly, but concerning Tharja...

No content of being a terrible character (between stalking, rape fuel and cursing, she dares call her wicked obsession love?), she has a terrible design even for FE13 (I would call her gross, but she's saved by Aversa's existence).

Developpers call her strong? To be honest, I think that it's an insult for girls of the earliest games (like most of the Archanean and Jugdralli). Tharja just has her "boingy bits" to appeal, nothing more IMO.

[Skynstein]

I have no problem with Owain personnaly, but concerning Tharja...

No content of being a terrible character (between stalking, rape fuel and cursing, she dares call her wicked obsession love?), she has a terrible design even for FE13 (I would call her gross, but she's saved by Aversa's existence).

Developpers call her strong? To be honest, I think that it's an insult for girls of the earliest games (like most of the Archanean and Jugdralli). Tharja just has her "boingy bits" to appeal, nothing more IMO.

Gross? I'd say Tharja is pretty sleek looking. Apart from being a little too revealing, of course.

Aversa looks the way she does because the Grimleal are some wicked folk. Dabbling with Grima has its adverse effects, judging by how decrepit Gangrel and Validar look.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Malebolganone

[Loki Laufeyson]

but majority of his popularity is based on his looks and the popular opinion of him being the best looking guy from the game.

What? No seriously, what? From what ive gathered, people enjoy Owain mostly for his hammy personality. I certainly dont like him for his looks because hes not my type. The majority of opinions on Owain ive seen have to do with his leaning on the Fourth Wall and being silly and fun.

^ Thank You

You can't push one of Tharja's biggest character flaws underneath the carpet like it doesn't matter, because it does.

Ok. What if some of us actually enjoy her character flaws? I like characters with questionable qualities all the time. Hell, my favorite game character ever is Magus from Chrono Trigger. I like Tharja the way she is. Its like Jave said up thread, everyone likes characters for various reasons. We shouldnt make someone feel like an awful person for liking that character. I hate Severa a lot, but i dont think her fans are shitty people.

[amadeuscho]

People with magic using on their loved ones is a very common thing in the media. Off the top of my head, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and The Fairly OddParents all features the main protagonists using magic on other main characters. If you take this beyond magic, this can apply to any powered characters.

You can't take the rules of this society (the one we currently live in), which to my knowledge doesn't have the existence of magic in it, and apply it to what roughly translates to the middle ages of a time period. That doesn't excuse their actions, but it misses the context of the respective time periods. Historically, how a society comes to decide what it was right and wrong over time. This doesn't just apply to child abuse; for example, all the younger kids within this game (the 14 year olds like Lissa and Ricken) should be in school from the rules of our society. Admittedly, child abuse is a more black and white issue, but that all depends on what constitutes child abuse (again, we live in a world without magic). In this case, we are also talking about a game which takes place between several different nations in which we have no means to determine the rules in these nations.

The developers should have the freedom to set whatever rules in place for their given game in its time period.

You are literally getting me worked up just like in the Smash Bros. Thread when you were stating Lucina was Japan's poster girl for Awakening.

well then don't get worked up.

My argument was that using hexes seems to me to be a part of her teaching method.

I don't see why you are bringing an argument from a separate thread. I think you are taking things a little too seriously.

What does that have to do with, like, anything. Previous Dark Mages have been perfectly likeable characters with shady pasts.

And the way she hexes Hoire totally isn't child abuse. Right. Because casting a curse to make her child have a constantly runny nose totally is something every normal parent does, right?

Noire even wishes female Avatar was her mom instead. She shows all the traits of an abused child. You can't make excuses for Tharja.

What's worse is that she's the developers favourite characters. Not just one but pretty much every developer. And the reason they give is that she's 'strong'. Pretty much every developer gives that as the reason. Yeah, right. We all know why she's their (and a pretty sizeable number of people's) favourite character.

The criteria for a class make up can alway change, just like how the mymidons of the Elibe series were exclusively of tribes. This is the first introduction of Dark Mages to the Archanea/Ylisse realm, so considering both Dark Mages within the game are seemingly dark characters, it's not too far a stretch to speculate as such.

See the top portion of the middle part.

The developers don't take this subject matter as seriously as you do. But I'm assuming you are talking about this interview. First of all, the question asks: "who are your favorite characters, both in terms of story and who you end up using most in battle." In which one developer says he likes her design. The others mention she's useful in battle (strong, perfect fighter). Strong is a perfectly reasonable response considering the second part of the question. And she has "interesting personality," which is an aspect of her character irrespective of the revealing nature of her clothing.

But really, do you expect the developers to share in your dislike (or have neutrality toward a character)? If they did on some level, they would have probably change the character in development.

Ok. What if some of us actually enjoy her character flaws? I like characters with questionable qualities all the time.

Makes sense, considering your avatar and user name is Loki, who is much more questionable than Tharja. And good point about not making other people feel shitty about liking a character.

[Czar_Yoshi]

This is the first introduction of Dark Mages to the Archanea/Ylisse realm, so considering both Dark Mages within the game are seemingly dark characters, it's not too far a stretch to speculate as such.

Etzel says hi.

[Skynstein]

Well considering Tharja and Henry are Grimleal (Tharja never stated but Henry admits it), isn't it a bit expected of them to be evil? However, all of them end up "good" in the story because of the bonds they develop with the other characters.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Tharja never states if she was a part of the Grimleal or not. She states that she didnt really know what the hell she was fighting for and thought the whole thing was balls. Hence why she joins Chrom's team. She was probably ordered to fight by Gangrel. You do have a point that like Henry, Tharja gives no real fucks and liked flinging deadly hexes on people. Now she just does it for Chrom and Avatar. Especially Avatar. Tharja's general ambivalence is basically what drew me to her. Her more amusing, and naughty nature made me chuckle a lot. She entertains me. I like Henry for the same reasons. Both characters do eventually open up a bit and we see that they arent necessarily evil, just not quite right in the head.

[Aplauserlol]

What? No seriously, what? From what ive gathered, people enjoy Owain mostly for his hammy personality. I certainly dont like him for his looks because hes not my type. The majority of opinions on Owain ive seen have to do with his leaning on the Fourth Wall and being silly and fun.

It's true though, a lot of people do like his humor, but most of his hype comes from his looks. Just look on YouTube with the male confessions video for example. It is all people talk about.

[shadowofchaos]

I think you are taking things a little too seriously.

Because I have a personal bias when it comes to child abuse.

It outright makes me steamed that even the developers saw her as an ideal girl... especially considering Japan's values when it comes to women.

[Czar_Yoshi]

It's true though, a lot of people do like his humor, but most of his hype comes from his looks. Just look on YouTube with the male confessions video for example. It is all people talk about.

And if you look on a video with any of his other supports, his manner of speech is all people talk about. What's your point?

[Aplauserlol]

And if you look on a video with any of his other supports, his manner of speech is all people talk about. What's your point?

Nope, just looked at another one. His support with FeMU.

Top comment is

"Hey Sexwain"

[euklyd]

People with magic using on their loved ones is a very common thing in the media. Off the top of my head, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and The Fairly OddParents all features the main protagonists using magic on other main characters. If you take this beyond magic, this can apply to any powered characters.

Pretty sure that, at least in Buffy, the use of magic on loved ones was portrayed as a terrible abuse of trust and the perpetrator was generally viewed as in the wrong. I don't remember super well, but it's certainly been a point of contention, and a plot point.

I haven't seen any the others...

Anyways.

With regard to Owain, I don't think I've ever heard of him being viewed as particularly attractive. He's popular, granted, but I don't think it's due to any physical attractiveness. Also using the comments on YouTube of all places as serious evidence of anything seems like flawed logic IMO.

As far as Tharja is concerned, I've expressed my views on her elsewhere and don't feel like going on a rant, or even opening up the possibility of going on a rant. I'll just say that I agree with what Rey and RJW et al., and leave it at that.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Because I have a personal bias when it comes to child abuse.

It outright makes me steamed that even the developers saw her as an ideal girl... especially considering Japan's values when it comes to women.

So by default, Tharja's fans are terrible people? <_<

Nope, just looked at another one. His support with FeMU.

Top comment is

"Hey Sexwain"

And? Youtube isnt known for its superior intellect when it comes to comments. So Owain has fangirls, ok. whats the big deal? Tumblr (the homebase of all fangirlism) doesnt have a lot of Sexy Owain stuff going on. (in fact, a search rendered Inigo popping up a helluva lot. Weird.) I think you may be basing this off of nothing but youtube comments.

[Airship Canon]

People with magic using on their loved ones is a very common thing in the media. Off the top of my head, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and The Fairly OddParents all features the main protagonists using magic on other main characters. If you take this beyond magic, this can apply to any powered characters.

Tharja's Curses are still very destructive to Noire. No one would be batting an eye if Noire was getting hit by happiness curses left and right. So that don't apply here. It's not how it's being done,it's WHAT. And what Tharja does is abuse. It's ****ed up and not funny or cute in anyway.

[The Roar]

Nope, just looked at another one. His support with FeMU.

Top comment is

"Hey Sexwain"

Yeah sure a lot of people find Owain attractive, and he does win majority of the polls based on looks. Then again he wins majority of polls in general. It is hardly the main reason for his popularity though which is what you are making it out to be.

On the topic of Tharja, I never really understood why people worried so much about morals in a video game. That is just me though.