Death: Why do we fear it/other questions.

[Phoenix Wright]

Eh call me crazy but I don`t fear death either as there is another step after we become ghosts I don`t know how many people here believe in ghosts but from personal experience I`ve seen and heard them as many places I`ve lived have been haunted that is the next step after death we pretty much stay in the same place and remain the same only thing different is we are not in our bodies anymore. So in short the body goes but the spirit forever remains.

do something for me? next time you see a ghost, can you record everything with a camera or something, or take a few pics?

[Naglfar94]

Now now let`s know go in this direction let`s respect each others thoughts and opinions on this topic. Anyway if I still had the recordings and pictures i would be glad to share them all we have gotten many things both through photos and recordings.

do something for me? next time you see a ghost, can you record everything with a camera or something, or take a few pic

[Phoenix Wright]

Now now let`s know go in this direction let`s respect each others thoughts and opinions on this topic. Anyway if I still had the recordings and pictures i would be glad to share them all we have gotten many things both through photos and recordings.

that wasn't meant to sound hostile. snarky, sure, but not hostile. but i'm serious: record everything the next time you see one. that way we have proof!

[Naglfar94]

that wasn't meant to sound hostile. snarky, sure, but not hostile. but i'm serious: record everything the next time you see one. that way we have proof!

Ah I see that is good :) ah Alright heh. Hmm I`m trying to remember if we still have the old photos we have one we caught in particular was pretty crazy it was on my mom`s old camera. I hope the picture is still saved on our old PC as the camera is long gone but that photo my gosh best thing I`ve seen and something that I would never want to see again.

[PathOfRadiantDawn]

I fear death because I don't think there's anything after it. Not existing anymore scares more than anything else ever could.

I haven't asked many people but I would assume this is a very common answer.

I don't fear death, but what comes after makes me anxious of course because I don't know what will happen. If nothing else it's normal to fear death because no living person has ever been dead before and knows what it's like, and the unknown generally scares most people.

Edited December 25, 2013 by PathOfRadiantDawn

[Chiki]

i'd agree, we could describe what death feels like, but only in theory. nothing would be certain, contrary to olwen's apparent belief (which is what i'm arguing against).

I don't think you understand what I'm arguing here. It's very much the same thing as what Randa was telling you. What do you mean only in theory? We know for certain that infinity is infinite. We know for certain that death is nothingness. We know what the concepts mean with certainty. =_=

If you claimed that we know for certain what it feels like, it means you didn't understand my argument at all. What we don't know for certain is how it feels like, though thanks to our limited understanding of multiple concepts we have a very good idea of what it feels like. This is just undebatable, in the same way that we have a very good idea of what living for an infinite amount of time feels like, even though we don't actually have direct experience with an infinitely long life. We somewhat understand what an infinite life entails.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Chiki

[Phoenix Wright]

What do you mean only in theory? We know for certain that infinity is infinite. We know for certain that death is nothingness. We know what the concepts mean with certainty. =_=

If you claimed that we know for certain what it feels like, it means you didn't understand my argument at all. What we don't know for certain is how it feels like, though thanks to our limited understanding of multiple concepts we have a very good idea of what it feels like. This is just undebatable, in the same way that we have a very good idea of what living for an infinite amount of time feels like, even though we don't actually have direct experience with an infinitely long life. We somewhat understand what an infinite life entails.

by "in theory," i mean we can have several theories on what death would feel like. all of them are equally valid from a scientific standpoint because none of them are testable (we cannot die and come back in order to explain what it was like, or do anything to gather data at all).

do we know that infinity is infinite? the universe is not infinite, but we label it as such. apparently we can assign a finite value to the theoretical concept of infinity (further googling on my part has brought up no satisfactory results, so i remain skeptical). how is this truly infinite, then? where is the proof that death is "nothingness"?

again, one cannot assign feelings to an abstract concept. i ask a second time, what would it feel like to live in a 4-dimensional euclidean space? i may be mistaken, but mathematics understands physical dimensions better than it understands infinity. yet, i am certain that no one can explain to me what it would feel like to live in a dimensional space not like ours.

"living a really long time" does not even begin to describe what living an infinite life feels like.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[Vorena]

Why do we fear death? Do we fear death or the unknown? What comes after life?

I believe all of these stem from some desire to want to continue on experiencing the every day to day activities that comes with being alive. Why fear death? I assume from the second question. The fear of not knowing what comes next or knowing you cannot experience your day-to-day activities anymore when death occurred. Finally,

The only way I see giving into or no longer having a fear is simply not having any attachment to the existence you are familiar with. If you believe that every single person has some attachment to living will undoubtedly have some fear or at the very least reservations about dying. Otherwise, once you are ready to say you do not care about living or dying or simply ready to die you have finally given in.

[Chiki]

do we know that infinity is infinite?

Okay, this is starting to get completely ridiculous, and it's time for me to leave the thread. It's just by definition true. By definition, if something is infinity then it's never ending, i.e. it's infinite. It's trivial.

again, one cannot assign feelings to an abstract concept.

This is stupid. I think you have no idea what an abstract concept is. An abstract concept is a general idea derived from specific instances. For example, we can have feelings about the concept of torture, anal sex, etc without referring to a particular instance of it. I don't think anyone in the world denies that we have feelings about concepts like sex, food, money etc. I, for example, am partial to chicken chow mein, but not one chicken chow mein in particular. Just the abstract concept of it. I'm not a big fan of money in general either, and I try not to buy things for myself if I can help it. Many people are generally against murder and torture, but perhaps they would not mind it if it was done on the people they hated.

You can't assign feelings to some abstract concepts (like that example you mentioned) but that doesn't mean you can't assign feelings to all abstract concepts. That's an incredibly invalid argument. For example, it doesn't follow that just because you can't do x to some y doesn't mean that you can't do x to all y.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Abstract+concept

Edited December 26, 2013 by Chiki

[Aizenberg]

everyone sort of fears death. it's a natural survival instinct. as to whether there's an afterlife after death. i liked to think it's real, but i don't care if it's the not real. whatever happens happens.

[Phoenix Wright]

Okay, this is starting to get completely ridiculous, and it's time for me to leave the thread. It's just by definition true. By definition, if something is infinity then it's never ending, i.e. it's infinite. It's trivial.

This is stupid. I think you have no idea what an abstract concept is. An abstract concept is a general idea derived from specific instances. For example, we can have feelings about the concept of torture, anal sex, etc without referring to a particular instance of it. I don't think anyone in the world denies that we have feelings about concepts like sex, food, money etc. I, for example, am partial to chicken chow mein, but not one chicken chow mein in particular. Just the abstract concept of it. I'm not a big fan of money in general either, and I try not to buy things for myself if I can help it. Many people are generally against murder and torture, but perhaps they would not mind it if it was done on the people they hated.

You can't assign feelings to some abstract concepts (like that example you mentioned) but that doesn't mean you can't assign feelings to all abstract concepts. That's an incredibly invalid argument. For example, it doesn't follow that just because you can't do x to some y doesn't mean that you can't do x to all y.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Abstract+concept

it's nice to know words have but one defintion and no others, right? as i've said, we define our boundless universe as "inifnite," but it is not infinite. if we can assign infinity an irrational, but finite value, how is that infinite? the definition of a word does not make the phenomenon it describes true, nor does it allow an arbitrary degree of certainty for it. by definition and observation, the earth simply was the center of the universe. the definition of a word depends entirely upon the paradigm of the public at any given time.

i was speaking about the concepts that are completely foreign to human experience. i thought this was obvious, but then again i suppose it is always safe to clarify.

ps: i would refrain from the child-like behavior you're currently exemplifying.

[Chiki]

i was speaking about the concepts that are completely foreign to human experience.

Dreamless sleep, anaesthesia, etc. I honestly don't know why you keep saying it's completely foreign when people say all the time that they have an idea what nothingness feels like. Part of the definition of death is the permanent end of consciousness. Anaesthesia is the temporarily end of consciousness. Many people have knowledge of what anaesthesia feels like. Therefore many people have knowledge of what death feels like.

I mean, just google this. Everyone who has an operation has an idea of what anaesthesia feels like (nothingness) and therefore, what death feels like. I really don't understand what issue you have with this. Let's just look at some basic definitions:

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/general+anesthesia

General anesthesia is the induction of a state of unconsciousness with the absence of pain sensation over the entire body

Death is defined as the cessation of all vital functions of the body including the heartbeat, brain activity (including the brain stem), and breathing.

So, the thing in common between death and anaesthesia is a state of unconsciousness. In death, the state of unconsciousness is permanent. In anaesthesia, the state of unconsciousness is temporary. The difference between death and anaesthesia is that in death, all bodily functions end, whereas under anaesthesia your body continues to do reflexes such as breathing, and keeps your heart beating, and so on.

Now, there is some brain activity when one is under anaesthesia, or else you'd die. But this brain activity is not significant. No one ever has any conscious memory of forcing their heart to beat, or make their kidneys do work, and so on. This brain activity is not part of our consciousness. So the only thing concerning what we feel when it comes to death is consciousness, And unsurprisingly anaesthesia and death have this in common. They both entail an end of consciousness, whether it is permanent or temporary. Obviously many people have been under anaesthesia and indirectly know what it feels like (nothing). Also, many people have slept dreamlessly. So obviously many people indirectly know what death feels like.

we define our boundless universe as "inifnite," but it is not infinite.

? This example is false.

In this case, the Universe is called "closed" and it has a finite size but without a boundary, just like a baloon

No one defines the boundless universe as infinite. It just doesn't have a boundary. It keeps expanding.

[Phoenix Wright]

~anaesthesia~

? This example is false.

No one defines the boundless universe as infinite. It just doesn't have a boundary. It keeps expanding.

i've been under anaesthesia several times, and i'd agree with dondon (which you never addressed):

"...but the problem is that you still don't know what dreamless sleep or anesthesia feel like, nor does anyone. anesthesia is by definition the lack of sense. physical experience requires observation via sense, so that's out. mental experience requires a consciousness, and people who are under anesthesia or dead lack a consciousness, so that's out. so people who claim to have experienced dreamless sleep or anesthesia are either lying or misunderstanding the notion of experience, since either of those phenomena are impossible to experience. (i hypothesize that what they describe is either coming out of or going into a state of unconsciousness, but not the state itself.)"

the example is not false: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/boundlessness

as i've said since page 1, there are several definitions, or at least interpretations, of the word "infinite." why this point is continually being attacked is beyond me. watching lawrence krauss' "universe from nothing" might do you some good as well.

for your own understanding, it's worth noting that we live in a flat universe, not a hyperbolic or spherical one. i'm not sure where your quote came from, but it hints at a minor misunderstanding, on your part, of the analogy being made.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Phoenix Wright