Fire Emblem 6 Mafia: (Day 4)

[scorri]

Ugh, ok. Things.

First off: Poly. You being mod confirmed town does not make you right. People disagreeing with you does not make them scum. People being wrong does not make them scum. People having role PMs that makes you think they're town does not make them town. People can lie. Elie writes fakes for people so mafia will most likely have believable fakes. Unless you can give solid reasons why Eury is scum that do not include her voting for Refa or having found two town people scummy, you can't just insist that she's scum. You can't use flavor to hunt for scum in games where the mod offers to write fake claims. Really, in any game where character claiming is allowed, you shouldn't be able to hunt by flavor. So stop assuming things and go scum hunt. Literally all you've done today is talk about how Refa's obvitown due to flavor and how you're modconfirmed town.

Right. Moving on to opinions and stuff.

Hmm, I'm finding Paper vaguely scummy and his attitude about not getting lynched is annoying me. His decent number of posts but lack of any really solid opinions is pretty bad. Like Prims said, he had one, maybe two posts with anything resembling opinions ED1 and then just coasted on a bunch of one liners. His random posting of his role PM makes no sense. Marth had a reason for posting his, but Paper was just like "oh lol, lets do this." Would support a lynch here.

I'm not 100% sure I buy the argument of Marth claiming miller must mean he's scum. I mean... the way I'm reading it is that he would appear scum to any cop scans but then if SB's role hit him, he would show up as town and that underlined part wouldn't show up at all. I dunno, I'm just not sold on it.

Uhm, beyond that, good vibes from kirsche's first bit of existing, vague gut read on Refa but can't really explain it. Yeah. Not sure who else I would lynch, will attempt to figure out more stuff later. Sorry for terribad activity.

[scorri]

Oh, right, voting.

##Vote: Paperblade (L-2)

[Eurykins]

Holy tits, he's had the most blatant flavour in the game and he's probably my best townread right now because Refa would be super-lazy as scum when it came to flavour.

Besides, I am but a humble and very walrus-y merchant, and I'm pretty sure my opinions can be trusted thanks to SB and the mods (though, I wonder why that didn't just get me shot last night instead...)

1. Your point? Isn't the point of being scum doing anything and everything possible to appear as townie as they can? Or else going out of their way to make themselves seem otherwise?

2. Refer to Scorri's post for my thoughts:

First off: Poly. You being mod confirmed town does not make you right. People disagreeing with you does not make them scum. People being wrong does not make them scum. People having role PMs that makes you think they're town does not make them town. People can lie. Elie writes fakes for people so mafia will most likely have believable fakes. Unless you can give solid reasons why Eury is scum that do not include her voting for Refa or having found two town people scummy, you can't just insist that she's scum. You can't use flavor to hunt for scum in games where the mod offers to write fake claims. Really, in any game where character claiming is allowed, you shouldn't be able to hunt by flavor. So stop assuming things and go scum hunt. Literally all you've done today is talk about how Refa's obvitown due to flavor and how you're modconfirmed town.

Meanwhile, I'm just not seeing how Refa's arguments are reading as scummy. His Eury argument in particular I wholly agree with, since Eury seems all over the place with her reads and votes. Plus, her last 'priority' list seems really bad in hindsight (Vhaltz flipped Town, as did I, and we were two of the three top reads she had).

Explain the bolded part?

Italicized: If you go under that logic- the fact that you two were part of my priority list, let's see who else falls under that category:

In terms of priority: Polydeuces > Vhaltz/Refa

Would lynch: Polydeuces, Refa, bearclaw, Rapier

top 3 are probably... refa, bearclaw, marf in that order atm. i don't object to poly lynch from what i've seen.

would lynch: Rapier, Poly, idk who else

Xin > Rapier > Vhaltz.

I feel like Vhaltz is third because having gone back over his posts briefly, I'm getting a vibe much like his Healer Mafia play, where he looked uber-town for the first little bit, then flipped scum. Xin & Rapier are obvious at this point.

Poly > Bear > and then third I guess would be Refa as I don't have too many other "I WANT THIS PERSON LYNCHED" reads as of the moment. I would greatly prefer one of these other two first though honestly.

From what I've seen:

1. People suspected you quite often, so no surprise there. Your posts/attitude rubbed off badly on us, so what do you expect? (Tbh, it's only your flip by SB's ability that's keeping me from voting you.)

2. Well, lookie who also had Vhaltz on their list list- you did, Poly. In addition, Refa, Kaoz and SB (who flipped townie) also openly spoke up regarding their suspicions towards Vhaltz.

In addition, if we're doing the "Look at who prioritized townies who were either flipped and/or killed so far", Rapier also falls under that category as well, and we can see how often he appears. I fail to see your logic in putting this against me, unless you're assuming we're all scum/suspicious for finding you (Poly), Vhaltz, and/or Rapier on our priority lists, including you yourself.

[Refa]

I'm back, here in the flesh, on the internet, in real life, from my computer. Come at me, bro.

Eurykins, Mafia knows who all of the town are because they know who all of the Mafia is it's not that hard to figure out. Like yeah, they don't know about 3rd parties, but that's it. Also you didn't explain the inconsistency with your Prims vote; first you said he was NULL LEANING TOWN and then with no posts from him he becomes your SECOND HIGHEST SCUMREAD. Do you not see the problem with this? Additionally, you didn't mention Rapier anymore despite having voted for him previously. I don't care if Vhaltz was online or not when you made your vote on him, voting for someone who isn't going to get lynched at the end of the phase is bad practice because it provides worse associative reads on you; also you stated Rapier was scummy beforehand, so I don't see why town!you wouldn't vote him (you never explained why he was off of your lynch priority). Then you voted me because...huh, guess I must have missed it. Oh well, I'm sure it's just me.

Prims, if you thought Mafia could game whose roles are who based on their characters, why did you even claim? Also honestly not really bothered about Paper's attitude (uhhh...were you the one to say this, I could've sworn it was you), didn't he get a lot more bothered in Fakeclaim when he was about to get lynched?

Shinori saying the Rapier wagon was awful after the lynch changes nothing. Like, Prims said Rapier was town like actually during Day 1 so I'm more inclined to believe that he thought Rapier was town, you kind of did nothing of the sort.

Paperblade, just because a cop hasn't flipped doesn't mean there isn't one (I claim cop). Seems like a bad reason to suspect Marth, although I do agree what you said about him jumping onto wagons and whatnot.

Marthipan, I am not a vigilante. I am a KNIGHT who just happens to be better than everyone else.

kirsche, that Poly reasoning initially came from Shinori and I believe scorri agreed with it as well, so why is the only one at fault for that Marthipan? Not really bothered by your other points, although honestly don't think Marth will flip scum. Also yes Paper has a history of bussing, but why do you think Marth would be bussing him that hard?

kaoz, because scum could just pass it off as WIFOM and say that anybody could kill Vhaltz...kind of like what you're doing! Like really, are you just going to say that scum tosses a dice and goes about killing people at random?

Lynch priority is Eurykins >> Paperblade > Everyone Else > Polydeuces = Me

[Refa]

I'm back, here in the flesh, on the internet, in real life, from my computer. Come at me, bro.

Eurykins, Mafia knows who all of the town are because they know who all of the Mafia is it's not that hard to figure out. Like yeah, they don't know about 3rd parties, but that's it. Also you didn't explain the inconsistency with your Prims vote; first you said he was NULL LEANING TOWN and then with no posts from him he becomes your SECOND HIGHEST SCUMREAD. Do you not see the problem with this? Additionally, you didn't mention Rapier anymore despite having voted for him previously. I don't care if Vhaltz was online or not when you made your vote on him, voting for someone who isn't going to get lynched at the end of the phase is bad practice because it provides worse associative reads on you; also you stated Rapier was scummy beforehand, so I don't see why town!you wouldn't vote him (you never explained why he was off of your lynch priority). Then you voted me because...huh, guess I must have missed it. Oh well, I'm sure it's just me.

Prims, if you thought Mafia could game whose roles are who based on their characters, why did you even claim? Also honestly not really bothered about Paper's attitude (uhhh...were you the one to say this, I could've sworn it was you), didn't he get a lot more bothered in Fakeclaim when he was about to get lynched?

Shinori saying the Rapier wagon was awful after the lynch changes nothing. Like, Prims said Rapier was town like actually during Day 1 so I'm more inclined to believe that he thought Rapier was town, you kind of did nothing of the sort.

Paperblade, just because a cop hasn't flipped doesn't mean there isn't one (I claim cop). Seems like a bad reason to suspect Marth, although I do agree what you said about him jumping onto wagons and whatnot.

Marthipan, I am not a vigilante. I am a KNIGHT who just happens to be better than everyone else.

kirsche, that Poly reasoning initially came from Shinori and I believe scorri agreed with it as well, so why is the only one at fault for that Marthipan? Not really bothered by your other points, although honestly don't think Marth will flip scum. Also yes Paper has a history of bussing, but why do you think Marth would be bussing him that hard?

kaoz, because scum could just pass it off as WIFOM and say that anybody could kill Vhaltz...kind of like what you're doing! Like really, are you just going to say that scum tosses a dice and goes about killing people at random?

Lynch priority is Eurykins >> Paperblade > Everyone Else > Polydeuces = Me

[Refa]

WHY

[Shinori]

Timeout. Marth's role pm has errors in it I think.

[Eurykins]

Double-posts OP. =P

Eurykins, Mafia knows who all of the town are because they know who all of the Mafia is it's not that hard to figure out. Like yeah, they don't know about 3rd parties, but that's it. Also you didn't explain the inconsistency with your Prims vote; first you said he was NULL LEANING TOWN and then with no posts from him he becomes your SECOND HIGHEST SCUMREAD. Do you not see the problem with this? Additionally, you didn't mention Rapier anymore despite having voted for him previously. I don't care if Vhaltz was online or not when you made your vote on him, voting for someone who isn't going to get lynched at the end of the phase is bad practice because it provides worse associative reads on you; also you stated Rapier was scummy beforehand, so I don't see why town!you wouldn't vote him (you never explained why he was off of your lynch priority). Then you voted me because...huh, guess I must have missed it. Oh well, I'm sure it's just me.

Italicized: Knowing who's town and third parties are two very different things. In addition, there's a good mix of town and third party roles to consider as well, none of which Mafia SHOULD know about beforehand unless certain information (like in Healer Mafia- where duplicate/similar

[Eurykins]

Whoa, da fuck. My post cut itself, what? Gimme a second.

[Shinori]

Dear bluedoom, you are Gonzales, the Brigand.

<snip>

However, it is worth noting that due to your physical appearance being slightly less than comforting, people will have their skepticism about trusting you. Any scans that target your alignment will reveal a mafia-alignment. This underlined part will not be displayed unless you are flipped.

In short, you are the Miller <snip>

You are allied with the Lycian Alliance, and win when all hostile threats are eliminated.

So this is his role pm. The main issue I see with this is Vhaltz flip + this that was posted in the thread. And I guess SB's flip as well. Kinda notice what Paper was talking about more but honsetly only because I saw marth's role pm he posted.

Vhaltz's flip says that he gets their role, he's the role cop. So according to that does he get Blue doom is the miller<Snip>? Or does he get Bluedoom is the<Snip> WHATEVER BLUEDOOM IS. However this counters what Bluedoom put in his own role pm above this. Just above this it states "This underlined part will not be displayed" blah blah blah, you would think the "Miller" part of his role would also just fall under that because it would be something that a rolecop should be able to see. So there's one error.

SECOND ERROR.

You're swift with your blade, and always accurate with your strikes. Because of your honor and incredibly keen skills in the art of the sword, you can make an all-or-nothing strike against a user during broad daylight by posting in thread: Duel [uSER] to the death. If this happens, you will die, and [uSER]'s RolePM will be force-flipped in thread for everyone to see. Nothing can stop you from dying during this all-or-nothing strike.

This comes directly from SB's flip. Read the bolded part specifically. Now combine this bolded part with the part I bolded in Marth's posted role pm. It says that underlined part will not be posted unless flipped. SB's role effectively "FLIPS" whoever he targets. Thus it would have shown if SB used his ability.

Now the biggest issue with this is: IF THE UNDERLINED PART ISNT GOING TO SHOW UP UNLESS FLIPPED THAT MEANS THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT CAN SEE HIS ROLE PM WITHOUT FLIPPING IT.

This means a full cop: And honestly a full cop with our role cop and SB's role seems like a mass amount of overkill. Also it seems redundant for both a role cop and SB's suicide oracle to be able to find out if he is a miller or not. I'd honestly assume the full cop would be only a one shot full cop, since full cops are op like that. And a miller role for only a one shot full role cop since bad.

With all of the things we have with "Limited" shots I highly doubt the existence of his miller claim.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Marth

EVERYONE ON THE MARTH WAGON.

[Eurykins]

Eurykins, Mafia knows who all of the town are because they know who all of the Mafia is it's not that hard to figure out. Like yeah, they don't know about 3rd parties, but that's it. Also you didn't explain the inconsistency with your Prims vote; first you said he was NULL LEANING TOWN and then with no posts from him he becomes your SECOND HIGHEST SCUMREAD. Do you not see the problem with this? Additionally, you didn't mention Rapier anymore despite having voted for him previously. I don't care if Vhaltz was online or not when you made your vote on him, voting for someone who isn't going to get lynched at the end of the phase is bad practice because it provides worse associative reads on you; also you stated Rapier was scummy beforehand, so I don't see why town!you wouldn't vote him (you never explained why he was off of your lynch priority). Then you voted me because...huh, guess I must have missed it. Oh well, I'm sure it's just me.

Italicized: Knowing who's town and third parties are two very different things. In addition, there's a good mix of town and third party roles to consider as well, none of which Mafia SHOULD know about beforehand unless certain information (like in Healer Mafia- where duplicate/similar roles couldn't exist) is in play.

Bolded: You make it sound as though third parties aren't worth much consideration.

Underlined: Thank you for typing out the reasoning of WHY he became such a high consideration/priority for me. His mannerisms, typing content/frequency, and overall presence in the this Mafia game has been entirely different from anything I've seen from him. The vast difference in how he is/was playing and the sharp contrasts from what I've known/seen from him is why he garnered my attention and suspicion. Now, I'm not seeing much in beating this dead horse much longer, as I've stated my reasonings again and again.

Bolded #2: I posted in previous posts the fact that I'd backed off of Rapier by that point. Therefore, he did not appear in my current reads/priorities as a result.

Underlined #2: Bad practice, maybe. However, I was currently strongest against Vhaltz at that point, and as such, I won't allow my vote to be swayed so easily by "Lol, let's choose the easiest target to lynch instead". I had no interest or support for the Rapier hyperlynch wagon as well, and as such refused to contribute to it.

Yeah, I voted for you, because I still don't trust you, nor the claim(s) that have been thrown out/posted in the thread so far. I feel a certain strain of scumminess from the act itself happening, and I figure at least one of you guys who did so is scum.

In addition, another argument against me has been "Well, you voted/voiced your opinion against Vhaltz when he was offline, therefore you seem scummy for it". If that's the case, then what of Rapier's mislynch- he who wasn't even online to defend himself? Vhaltz was around to post, and did so, and yet the one the rest of you guys chose to target was not even there to protect himself. Imo, those who shoved the Rapier wagon last night and pushed for his mislynch look horrible to me, in terms of gut feelings/reads.

[Zkirsche]

Also yes Paper has a history of bussing, but why do you think Marth would be bussing him that hard?

How is Marth bussing him that hard, I don't think what he's done is that excessive, it's not like he's death tunelled him or anything? If Marth thinks he or PB are going to be lynched today then he might as well distance as much as he can.

that Poly reasoning initially came from Shinori and I believe scorri agreed with it as well, so why is the only one at fault for that Marthipan?

Shinori had more of a case than just that and Scorri presented it as a question to scum hunt, Marth just sheeped a minor point and sat on the sheep vote until he couldn't any longer.

[Paperblade]

@kirsche: Yes, but you said that Marth's vote on me was also horrible. If I'm mafia, how is it horrible?

@Refa: Do you think that we have SB+Rapier+Vhaltz+cop in a 14 man setup? That would make nearly half the town info roles.

I don't really like the "Paper doesn't think he will be lynched, I'm gonna vote him" logic. Really?

[Eurykins]

Currently, Refa and Blue are sitting ill with me, the latter due to what occurred last night prior to the mislynch and something else on my mind. But I'm not sure how to explain it.

[Zkirsche]

It's horrible in the sense that it's oppportunistic. Scum!Marth making use of the pressure on you to bus Scum!You is very plausable.

[Sunwoo]

The "My Semester is Over and I need to Sleep for like 12 Hours" Votals

Paperblade (3): Prims, Marth, scorri {L-3}
Marth (3): Paperblade, kirsche, Shinori {L-3}
Refa (2): Eurykins, Kaoz
Eurykins (2): Refa, Polydeuces
Shinori (1): bearclaw13

Voteless Wendy(s): None

With 11 alive, 6 hammers (optional, as always). There are about 45.5 hours left in phase.

[Refa]

Italicized: Knowing who's town and third parties are two very different things. In addition, there's a good mix of town and third party roles to consider as well, none of which Mafia SHOULD know about beforehand unless certain information (like in Healer Mafia- where duplicate/similar roles are I'm SCUMCLAIMING

That's what you were going to say, right? Man, it's like I'm psychic or something. OK, but seriously now...

-Noone has roleclaimed in their Role PM's except Marth who claimed the Miller part of his role (which if he's town, has no benefit for Mafia to know). Your point there is baaaaaaaaaah...d.

-3rd parties aren't worth much consideration now, no.

-Still don't agree with your Prims case, but w/e, it's not like you're going to agree that it was bad

-I don't remember you posting that you'd backed off of Rapier. Proooove it.

-Voting Vhaltz is just an easy way to distance yourself from the lynch, and voting someone who isn't going to get lynched is wasting your vote.

-"Well, you voted/voiced your opinion against Vhaltz when he was offline, therefore you seem scummy for it." Never said this, who did?

-Oh, but apparently you agree with this reasoning...why? Man, if I was scum and was just offline for the last 24 hours, does that mean you wouldn't lynch me? Wow, something to keep in mind for future scum games.

@Shinori If the underlined part doesn't display unless he's flipped, I don't see how Vhaltz would see it. Probably because claiming Miller and a Rolecop scanning him as Miller would effectively clear him which would defeat the whole purpose of having a Miller. Like yes, he could be lying, but your interpretation of his role confuses me. Also SB's suicide oracle can literally confirm any townie as town, so it confirming Marthipan is not actually a valid reason for being upset with his role. It just sounds like you're making a lot of assumptions on your scum read on Marth, such as 1) Vhalt'z role would see Marth as a Miller, 2) it confirms the existence of a full cop which is overkill (why can't Marth just be lying about being Miller, why does it have to be a full cop), 3) if there was a full cop it would be 1-shot even though you just said full cop is overkill so wouldn't it still be overkill with 1-shot or would it not be,and 4) that Marth's miller role is only there to screw over the not-sure-if-it-exists 1-shot full cop.

@Refa: Do you think that we have SB+Rapier+Vhaltz+cop in a 14 man setup? That would make nearly half the town info roles.

I don't really like the "Paper doesn't think he will be lynched, I'm gonna vote him" logic. Really?

I guess? Don't really see how any of the roles make each other redundant or obselete honestly. Also Elieson did say that he hated vanillas, so it doesn't really bother me.

[Paperblade]

Oh, Marth also mentioned earlier that he got "info" which would be yet another info role

[Paperblade]

It's not that it's redundant, it's that it's kind of really strong.

[Refa]

tl,dr; on my thoughts about Marth- I'm bothered by his actual material or rather lack of it (and his Rapier vote was actually pretty bad and I agree what with people are saying about that considering he was defending Rapier the whole D1 and even got on peoples' cases for voting Rapier because it was too easy), but I don't see how his roleclaim makes him scummy.

@Paperblade- OK, I get what you mean. Gotta go now, will look back later and see if Marthipan is worth voting over Eurykins.

[Shinori]

The main part that I see is that with SB's role "flipping" somene Marth's "Underlined" part is worthless unless there is a full cop in this game.An

And a full-cop is redundant I fill.

[Zkirsche]

So Refa does that mean you don't think Marth will flip town?

[Eurykins]

@Refa:

- Except the fact that characters themselves can parallel with certain abilities/flavors.

- Really now? I highly doubt that after watching Kirsche blow up two others in the other Mafia thread/game.

- Of course.

- Post #122 = I acknowledged Rapier's points, and stated he improved a bit in my eyes. I wasn't dead-set on him being townie, but thereafter I backed off of him.

- My vote on him stuck even after Poly flipped. AKA. Before the hyperlynch on Rapier even began/happened. If I had no interest/support for that wagon/lynch, then I will not move to it, even if other people are hyping it up.

- I believe it was Poly earlier.

- Isn't it why the Paper wagon was being hauled up? Due to his inactivity/lack of posting? However, as I've seen- even Poly and others have posted in regards to "Man, if we lynch ___ while they're gone/disappeared, I'm gonna be ___". GENERALLY, from what I've seen, aiming for someone who can't even be online to counter/respond to any points being charged against them is making way for easy mislynches.

[Elieson]

The "My CoHost is in a sleep-induced Coma, What do I do?!?!" Votals

Paperblade (3): Prims, Marth, scorri {L-3}
Marth (3): Paperblade, kirsche, Shinori {L-3}
Refa (2): Eurykins, Kaoz
Eurykins (2): Refa, Polydeuces
Shinori (1): bearclaw13

Voteless Wendy(s): None

With 11 alive, 6 hammers (optional, as always). There are just over 29 hours left in phase.

[Kaoz]

kaoz, because scum could just pass it off as WIFOM and say that anybody could kill Vhaltz...kind of like what you're doing! Like really, are you just going to say that scum tosses a dice and goes about killing people at random?

Nah, of course not. I'm just saying that there could be a variety of other factors playing into the decision, and the way you worded it that one of Eurykins and me has to be mafia as a result of his death is just jumping to conclusions.

It's not that it's redundant, it's that it's kind of really strong.

And then you look at the abilities themselves and realize it isn't really? Like, Rapier's role isn't strong, you get an indication of whether the target's role is active or passive from it (not even a confirmation), nothing more. The Role Cop is already a step up of course, but in order to actually find mafia with it, you either need to catch them in a lie or their role just has to be obvious scum. Since we don't know anything about the mafia roles, it's quite possible that you wouldn't easily be able to convert the role cop results into a successful lynch.

I'll give you SB's role, but since he has to sacrifice himself in order to force the activation, there's a non-negligible cost associated with it. I don't think more info roles are out of the question.

@Shinori

The role pms say "In short, you are [role]"; wouldn't it be possible that since it's just a summary of what's already been said, a role cop would've only gotten "Marth is [<snip>]" as their result? In other words, the underlined part would imply that Miller wouldn't be displayed. That said, if Marth could clarify this or ask about it, it'd be interesting to know.

@Marth

What did you mean by "got it fixed" in your #307? Did Elieson forget to underline it originally or something?

Also, did your opinion on bearclaw change? In #273 you say you would've preferred it if he had been yesterday's lynch, but then you vote Eurykins in #305 without addressing bearclaw at all anymore.

Would consider a Marth lynch depending on his responses to the above and the points kirsche brought up, leaving my vote where it is though for the time being.