Third gen Morgan vs. 2 Avatar's children

[Czar_Yoshi]

I've done a no Promo/ManaTaguel run (twice, actually). With proper tier 1 skill allocation, it's extremely easy to ramcharge the game. Extremely easy. The hardest part was keeping Chrom alive in Final when I had Morgan doing all the work.

I still haven't even tried the run with Nosferatu (as I view it as a cheap cop-out)

To further it even more, kids beyond Lucina are completely unnecessary. [Keep in mind that I'm referring to Hard mode on both occasions]

On Lunatic+? Grima has 100+ Avo, 45 Spd, Dragonskin/Pavise+/99/53/53 defenses, and an 80% chance of having 90 atk. His Skl is so high, he might as well have Hawkeye.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Czar_Yoshi

[shadowofchaos]

His Skl is so high, he might as well have Hawkeye.

...ummm.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I was talking about a base class only run.

[shadowofchaos]

I was talking about a base class only run.

Dancer and Tactician. That's as base class as you can get.

...so care to explain why is Lunatic+ the standard on your post again with Elie's premise? If anything Hard or Lunatic should be.

Edited December 17, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Czar_Yoshi]

Alright. Sublime Maniac was saying he couldn't see a good example of a place where G3 Morgan's extra stats could break a major threshold, and I was pointing to Lunatic(+) Grima's speed on a no promote/special class/DLC run as an example of where it could make a difference.

[Tables]

Honestly, that is why I generally consider marrying a child character impractical - assuming I was going specifically for the highest stats, the difference between an optimised second gen Morgan and an optimised third gen Morgan's just not enough to be worth the hassle, IMHO.

Also, I don't see why skill, of all stats, can be valuable, given that Rally Skill is derided as the least useful rally of all...

Yeah, I agree - at least for in game. There's just no point. For postgame, it can be worthwhile - what you lose out on in the 2nd Morgan is generally insignificant, since most children have a few dads who are almost as good as Avatar.

Skill is valuable because reliablilty - again, talking postgame here. Apotheosis is a really dumb map. Played well, you take very few attacks, so defences barely matter. Between rallies, pair ups, tonics and the like, you can double 90% of the chapter easily, and besides, you usually don't NEED to double to kill between your double brave/gale units, so speed doesn't matter much. Luck is always pretty irrelevant. That leaves... MAG or STR, and SKL, pretty much. You need the MAG/STR to reach kill thresholds, but that's usually not hard. But Skill to increase reliability of early kills, such as with skills, is very valuable, and every percent of Dual Strike is useful for reliability. You can't reach 100% DS without DS+, but you can get to around 95-96%, which is usually reliable enough. You might miss a few DS's, but you're still usually going to kill.

[shadowofchaos]

Alright. Sublime Maniac was saying he couldn't see a good example of a place where G3 Morgan's extra stats could break a major threshold, and I was pointing to Lunatic(+) Grima's speed on a no promote/special class/DLC run as an example of where it could make a difference.

A difference that wouldn't even matter discussing considering you would never make it there if that no promote/special class/DLC premise holds to ALL your units.

The first thing that comes to my mind... I'm pretty sure anything unpromoted wouldn't survive the onslaught of Chapter 24 Wyvern Lords, even with bows to nullify counter and a fort, without Limit Breaker. So discussing that point of a difference in that mode with that premise is absolutely... well... pointless.

Edited December 17, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Shadow Mir]

A difference that wouldn't even matter discussing considering you would never make it there if that no promote/special class/DLC premise holds to ALL your units.

The first thing that comes to my mind... I'm pretty sure anything unpromoted wouldn't survive the onslaught of Chapter 24 Wyvern Lords, even with bows to nullify counter and a fort, without Limit Breaker. So discussing that point of a difference in that mode with that premise is absolutely... well... pointless.

I'd honestly be surprised to see it done on vanilla Lunatic, really.

Yeah, I agree - at least for in game. There's just no point. For postgame, it can be worthwhile - what you lose out on in the 2nd Morgan is generally insignificant, since most children have a few dads who are almost as good as Avatar.

Skill is valuable because reliablilty - again, talking postgame here. Apotheosis is a really dumb map. Played well, you take very few attacks, so defences barely matter. Between rallies, pair ups, tonics and the like, you can double 90% of the chapter easily, and besides, you usually don't NEED to double to kill between your double brave/gale units, so speed doesn't matter much. Luck is always pretty irrelevant. That leaves... MAG or STR, and SKL, pretty much. You need the MAG/STR to reach kill thresholds, but that's usually not hard. But Skill to increase reliability of early kills, such as with skills, is very valuable, and every percent of Dual Strike is useful for reliability. You can't reach 100% DS without DS+, but you can get to around 95-96%, which is usually reliable enough. You might miss a few DS's, but you're still usually going to kill.

Well, I generally said that because 1-3 extra points for marrying a child character just screams "too much input for not enough output".

Errr... I honestly thought Skill was more valuable before FE7 came along and reduced Skill to a joke stat.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[shadowofchaos]

I'd honestly be surprised to see it done on vanilla Lunatic, really.

Possibly Dark Mage solo with MU and Chrom might be able to.

On +? No.

Edited December 17, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Elieson]

It's impossible to hurt Grima enough in Lunatic mode with any unit combo, to actually kill him. His def is too high even for a paired unit.

If you do manage to hurt him, he gets healed back. The only tier 1 unit with a skillproc is Lucina, who pretty much has to exist because Luna is just that necessary.

Unless you venture into DLC, which I didn't do myself.

Edited December 17, 2013 by The Protown SK

[shadowofchaos]

His def is too high even for a paired unit.

This is also considering the fact that no-promote/special class DLC run in the context of Lunatic+ do not have access to rallies.

That in itself kills the point of "the stat difference" with that premise intact.

My MU and Olivia were barely able to do damage on Lunatic+ via Limit Breaker, Quick Slash [Aggressor], tonics, All Stats+2 AND rallies. Without rallies and Limit Breaker, unpromoted children even with maxed out third generation eugenics for Morgan mean absolute crap.

Edited December 17, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Elieson]

Rey see my edits for even more logic

[Shadow Mir]

It's impossible to hurt Grima enough in Lunatic mode with any unit combo, to actually kill him. His def is too high even for a paired unit.

If you do manage to hurt him, he gets healed back. The only tier 1 unit with a skillproc is Lucina, who pretty much has to exist because Luna is just that necessary.

Unless you venture into DLC, which I didn't do myself.

And with 110 avoid... If the calculations are right, capped Chrom would have 136 hit with Exalted Falchion - that means that Chrom's chances of hitting Grima are pretty damn poor.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[shadowofchaos]

And with 110 avoid... If the calculations are right, capped Chrom would have 136 hit with Exalted Falchion - that means that Chrom's chances of hitting Grima are pretty damn poor.

Ask and ye shall receive confirmation.

Not capped... but close enough.

Edited December 17, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Elieson]

Try a tiet1 run of your own. You'll find that Hard mode is challenging enough.

My restrictions:

No combat or utility usage by units that hit Lv30

No promoting

No use of units that come Prepromoted (Fred, Libra, Anna, etc)

Marraige of units banned cannot see combat/dance/be paired up

Renown Seed of Trust is allowed

**Don't use Nosferatu, though that is my personal distaste for it**

You'll find endgame hard enough even with maxcapp'd as Tier1 unless you properly allocate and prepare skills. There's only so much that sub-33 speed and strength can do, even with forges.

Hard mode is a fun challenge. Lunatic simply cannot be done due to Grima

Edited December 17, 2013 by The Protown SK

[Czar_Yoshi]

Just one thing about Lunatic Grima I'd like to point out: Legendary Weapons with skills (specifically Vengeance). Grima's attacks do enough damage that manipulating 64 damage on one of your units is feasible, which gives a 32 damage boost. That on a Barbarian with a Barbarian pairup will hurt even through Pavise+. Add in Grima's 35 dge (with Anathema) and you can get together enough crit stacking skills to manipulate a crit.

As for hit rate problems, base classes aren't exactly lacking in +Hit skills. Chrom himself has Outdoor Fighter, Skl+2, and Prescience. Demoiselle, Hex and Anathema can help further. All told, Chrom's Hit (without a pairup, assuming Grima has 110 Avo)

(31*3+33)/2+80+15+10+10-(110-10-15) =177-85 =92

Which is pretty good if you ask me. 97 if you add Lucina's Charm but she probably has better things to do. Chrom has Skl and Lck tonics and the aforementioned skills. The fight will still be absurdly RNG based but I believe it's possible.

[Shadow Mir]

Just one thing about Lunatic Grima I'd like to point out: Legendary Weapons with skills (specifically Vengeance). Grima's attacks do enough damage that manipulating 64 damage on one of your units is feasible, which gives a 32 damage boost. That on a Barbarian with a Barbarian pairup will hurt even through Pavise+. Add in Grima's 35 dge (with Anathema) and you can get together enough crit stacking skills to manipulate a crit.

As for hit rate problems, base classes aren't exactly lacking in +Hit skills. Chrom himself has Outdoor Fighter, Skl+2, and Prescience. Demoiselle, Hex and Anathema can help further. All told, Chrom's Hit (without a pairup, assuming Grima has 110 Avo)

(31*3+33)/2+80+15+10+10-(110-10-15) =177-85 =92

Which is pretty good if you ask me. 97 if you add Lucina's Charm but she probably has better things to do. Chrom has Skl and Lck tonics and the aforementioned skills. The fight will still be absurdly RNG based but I believe it's possible.

I still disagree. Even in that situation, you'll either just get picked off by one of his goons (assuming you luck out and DON'T get killed by Grima himself, because face it, he WILL double you), or Grima gets healed.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Elieson]

4 words

Mooks with Psychic Spam.

[Czar_Yoshi]

So kill him on turn 2 player phase before anyone can heal him and only attack with characters with 41+ Spd.

[shadowofchaos]

So kill him on turn 2 player phase before anyone can heal him and only attack with characters with 41+ Spd.

I would love a damage calculation to accompany that statement please.

And where exactly are you getting all those Vengeance axes for your clearly trained Axe users?

Edited December 18, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Shadow Mir]

So kill him on turn 2 player phase before anyone can heal him and only attack with characters with 41+ Spd.

And how the hell are you gonna get 41+ speed?? The only characters I can see getting that much are also the same ones who get OHKOed. Looking at your barbarian example, you'd need 14 extra speed to not get doubled. 2 from a speed tonic makes 29. A Barbarian pairup is +2 before other factors. That makes 33. Even if I added the extra two from stat bonus, that's only 35. Where the hell are you gonna get 6 more points of speed from?? Also, I wouldn't expect much damage even with Vengeance thanks to Dragonskin and Pavise. (You'd get a whopping 6 points of damage on him with Pavise, and even without it, you get only 12)

Edited December 18, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Czar_Yoshi]

From "other" pairup factors. Avatar@Barbarian (+Spd, -Def) gives +7 Spd. Yarne gets +4 Spd from Panne, and Barbarian's base is 27. 27+4+7+2(Tonic) =40, leaving only one to be made up by his dad or a Barracks Boost. As for surviving Ignis, my units all have 65HP (tonics), so they only need 26 modified Def to take a hit. That's not such a long shot.

I'm going to do some tests and see how close I can get once I get my 3ds back (currently it's off getting a Capture Card). I really want to see if this can be done.

For the Vengeance Axes, I'll simply not use the one I get for anything other than bosses, and maybe use AT (though getting it to 100% unpromoted isn't likely).

Edited December 19, 2013 by Czar_Yoshi

[Shadow Mir]

From "other" pairup factors. Avatar@Barbarian (+Spd, -Def) gives +7 Spd. Yarne gets +4 Spd from Panne, and Barbarian's base is 27. 27+4+7+2(Tonic) =40, leaving only one to be made up by his dad or a Barracks Boost. As for surviving Ignis, my units all have 65HP (tonics), so they only need 26 modified Def to take a hit. That's not such a long shot.

I'm going to do some tests and see how close I can get once I get my 3ds back (currently it's off getting a Capture Card). I really want to see if this can be done.

For the Vengeance Axes, I'll simply not use the one I get for anything other than bosses, and maybe use AT (though getting it to 100% unpromoted isn't likely).

Never mind I have not seen you say so much as a thing about the fact that Grima's not the only enemy, and even if you don't get doubled, someone else will be more than happy to do you in.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Never mind I have not seen you say so much as a thing about the fact that Grima's not the only enemy, and even if you don't get doubled, someone else will be more than happy to do you in.

So kill him on turn 2 player phase before anyone can heal him and only attack with characters with 41+ Spd.

I believe I may have acknowledged it.

[Shadow Mir]

I believe I may have acknowledged it.

So yeah, how are you gonna get the damage needed to kill him then? Vengeance won't be guaranteed to activate, and in such a case, you do lolwut damage even if Pavise doesn't blunt what little you're doing. Critical hit? Because while Gamble and the Vengeance axe are 15 crit combined, that's still 20 short, assuming Anathema's factored in.