FE9 LA Tier List

[Baldrick]

I noticed that with the cut supports, Nephenee and Geoffrey have almost the exact same support pool. They both give hit which is an important boost for Brom, Calill and Elincia, atk vs avo is mostly situational. Comparing their other features;

Stats: Nephenee has 6 skill and 2 speed for Geoffrey's 5 HP and 2 defense.

Caps: Geoffrey has 1 strength and 1 speed for Nephenee's 2 skill and 1 defense. The most relevant of those will be the speed cap, though only swordmasters/Volke have 30 AS and they aren't too common.

Other: Nephenee has 5 SP and innate Wrath for Geoffrey's bows.

Overall, Neph has the advantage but I don't think there should be a tier gap.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Baldrick

[General Horace]

I think we're trying to revamp the whole list, tier by tier, and we've only gotten around to doing top. Espinosa suggested something like

Naesala

Gatrie

Shinon

????

to start with, but I think Naesala is generally a negative given that it shuts you out of having Tibarn or Giffca. I don't know if that should be included though.

I'd like to see other units like Nephenee and Geoffrey here like Baldrick just mentioned, along with maybe Zihark, Jill, Ranulf, and Ena or something. Other units that used to be there like Mist, Mia and Largo probably aren't good enough.

[Elieson]

Ranulf+Tauroneo support isn't a bad thing, but they both want those speedwings pretty badly. Ranulf is still a huge resource drain regardless, actually.

Lucia getting Elincia as a support option is pretty cool, for lower tier units anyway. This gives Elincia two Earth supports (+25Avo). Lucia doesn't really /demand/ much in terms of Books/Speedwings either, meaning that where Elincia (and/or Geoffrey) prefer them, she can horde the other things like DShields and the VK. Elincia also Critguards pretty much everybody (Lucia, Geoffrey, Ike, Keiran even), so there is the possibility of running it.

Elincia <A> Lucia gives

+15 Avo

+15 Acc

+10% Crit

Critblock on Lucia

That's an incredible support. Her Str and Durability need fixing, but fielding say, Ike or Tauroneo or Geoffrey for Elincia's other support means that you can split them up a bit more. Elincia takes one of the Energy drops. The rest of your team probably doesn't need the other, so Lucia does well enough with it. This being said...

I don't think Lucia deserves to be AS LOW as she is. An expected 21 Str isn't /AWFUL/, when she's hitting 73 Crit with just Elincia on the field. 73 Crit on a 33 Atk unit is enough to whack mages and any bow user or footborn axe user pretty hard. It's not OHKO territory, but it's not trash tier. She still can't do much against tankier units, and pretty much fails entirely against Armors/Horses/Royals/Ike, but even so, she's only made worse due the popularity of High/Top tier units thriving on Defense. Half of the current High, and most everything below that, is kinda squishy, and Lucia can do enough to be useful against them.

AT LEAST put her above Rhys and Ulki.

[General Horace]

The bad part about that support is they both need the runesword. But yeah, she's definitely better than useless turds like Ulki and Rhys. Tauroneo having speed wings isn't nescessary, he can still blick people with a brave lance while whoever your main resolver is does more with it due to having better stats (probably)

[Elieson]

ResolveT only jumps up to 22 Spd before a speedwing, which is still doubled by a lot of high-use units that see 27 and 28 speed on average. One of the Four speedwings on BigT at least allows him to hit 25Spd in Resolve, only being doubled by other Nihil/Resolvers, Giffca and Naesala (and I guess other SuperLaguz). 48Atk x2 isn't hitting/killing everything that he attacks, so he wants at least one to avoid beign doubled by rogue axe-wielding mounts.

[General Horace]

I just think boosters are better used on other units since Tauro has the potential to just become a massive resource sink that is just totally nullified by the opponents Nihilst. One speedwing isn't too much to ask for though.

[Elieson]

Uninvested Ena has 39 Atk transformed, with 25AS. She starts off the match untransformed with a terribad 21AS and a pretty good 67HP-27/24 def. Her gauge sucks, and she faces easy damage early on from common Boyds and Largos (leaving her with 19HP, 3HKO'd), Ikes (leaving her with 33HP, so 4HKO'd by base Ike) and Giffcas (leaving her with 21 HP, so 3HKO'd). You could Demiband her instantly, giving her an extra +2 Spd/Def, which gives her a slight edge against Boyds/Largos, but she's still torn apart by Giffcas.

Give her 2 Speedwings and she has 25 Spd UT/ 27 Spd DT. Then what does she have? Still a terrible 37 Atk. You know who else has 37 Atk in Top Tier? Pretty much anyone if you give them a Brave [Weapon] or Vague Katti (All of which have their added benefits) will be close to it (except Rolf, but Rolf is in Top for entirely different reasons). There's 2 Energy Drops, and who uses them better? Rolf, arguably uses one. The other? Tauroneo (with innate Resolve), Oscar/Makalov (to top them off too), Calill (for an AS boost) to take advantage of her innate Nihil and insane Rexbolt/Rexflame offensive), and Brom, if no one else is using it. It's not stellar by any means.

Instantly Demibanding her means that she needs more resources to get by, drawing at the bare minimum, 2 speedwings. Even with 2 wings, she gets decimated by Giffcas, who still double her even with that. Any skills she's given aren't helping her that much unless she transforms, and unless she gets Nihil (which others arguably utilize better), she's getting the leftover skills that didn't fit into the rest of the team, like Guard (chancy) and Adept (chancy). She's outclassed all over the place, and with the 4 boosters limit and W/R banned on her, she doesn't have much going for her in the early game unless she sucks down 3/4 wings and Demis, in which, her offense, which needs help too, suffers. Top tier units are Top because their threatening for the entire game. Ena does not meet that requirement.

[General Horace]

she needs three speedwings to not suck, with two she's still useless.

but I agree, I think she's awful, definately not high tier worthy.

Edited May 19, 2014 by General Horace

[Espinosa]

Here are the problems I find with your argument, Elie:

1) Uninvested Ena is cited as something deserving an analysis. If Ena is in use, she will take 3 Speedwings, possibly all 4 but not necessarily so. Yes, it comes at a cost, but it's comparable to Calill's cost (also p huge), for instance. Or Tauroneo's boosters all across the board.

2) Demi Band Ena is cited and compared to other Top tier units. You only go Demi mode when your gauge runs out and it has to fill in until then, so it happens around endgame. Ideally, you should've used Ena extensively until then, laying the hurt all over the place.

3) Everything you said about Ena can more or less be said about... Nasir, and that's a unit we recently banned. Same gauge specifics, same resource requirements, same stats pretty much. You've played about the same number of games as me, perhaps more, so you know very well how "bad" Nasir is, and Ena is in many ways comparable. She just lacks that Nihil, a point of AS (which doesn't matter because Nasir wants the same 3+ wings regardless) which means she needs an extra wing to double Ike/Tibarn, most notably, and two points of attack, yet she hits more accurately than Nasir and when her gauge is over she actually has more attack than him demi'd.

You're also assuming Ena isn't taking any high-end skills, which of course only serves to further devalue her role. You could sandbag Brom by refusing him Resolve and Nihil too, for instance. Ena is not the worst unit for Nihil (due to shutting down armours and the like), definitely a good user of Adept due to doubling potential, and Vantage/Guard works about as well on her as it does on Nasir, maybe even better because you can't nullify the attacks on whiffed breaths and Ena is more accurate than Nasir. And guess what, Ena with Nihil is pretty much the same Nasir we drove quickly out of the meta after seeing what he's capable of.

Tauroneo is unlikely to appear on the same as Ena (speedwings competition) so I wouldn't force a resource competition among them. I mean, when did we last hotly discuss Tauroneo and Brom competing for Nihil, speedwings or energy drops? Never, because these two don't mix - one is enough. There are some teams Ena is better compatible with, namely ones not requiring more than 1 SW. Makalov has capped strength and speed, so he's one of Ena's most likely teammates alongside Ike. Rolf still leaves one drop for Ena, and 1 drop + 3 wings is the ceiling for her boost expenditure we agreed upon.

And since when is Largo a common unit in Top tier? People are really afraid to use him because of his lack of defence nowadays.

[General Horace]

I still think using Nihil on Ena is a bad idea. If the opponent knocks his resolver into resolve range, and your Nihilist is stuck untransformed unable to do anything, You're in for a bad time. Perhaps I didn't use her very well in my match vs PKL, but I found her really underwhelming. She was just a massive lump that you don't wanna attack because there are more threatening enemies romping around. I did make a big misplay there where I should have killed Giffca instead of Oscar but oh well. I won't deny she's pretty good against the common 27 speed tier but only if they don't have Laguzguards.

also ena doesn't shut down armours very well if they're running Laguzguards (which isn't exactly uncommon) Even with VK + Knight ward Ena's doing 6x2 with an energy ring, and that's supportless.

Edited May 19, 2014 by General Horace

[Elieson]

Ena lacking one AS means she wants that third Wing to keep her safe from common Giffcas doubling her, where Nasir just wants two to be safe from everything bar Naesala.

Nihil!Ena means no one else has Nihil, and because she can't combine wrath or resolve with it, she's acting as a detriment to the team by taking it in the first place.

Her still-not-astonishing attack is accurate, OK, but its still weaker than every other top tier unit with a Silver weapon, and those miss approximately never.

She can Renewal tank, which is a niche move to stick her as, but she can't sweep late game unless other tanks have been pulled from the game, because she out damages virtually nobody. She has potential to double a select few Armors, whether she is given Nihil or not, and does hardly any damage to them, versus the return.

Im not sandbagging ena, because the rules already did that for me. Being exempt from Resolve means that giving her the precious Nihil scroll results in the team overall bring capable of dealing less damage on the whole. She gets no offensive gain from having Nihil, only defensive, and while this meta is defensive centralized, it doesn't change the fact that Ena brings to the table an above average tanking ability much like generals, only with less offensive potential in the form of low powered unaugmented attacks (unless Adept procs, which arguably, even units in Mists tier benefit from), no supports and having to deal with a gaugeVSband dilemma, something that no one else in top has to deal with.

Like I said, she has better late game potential, but top tier units should have ALL game potential, like ike, Giffca, Makalov, Rolf, and even armors with their heavy counters that can occur against anything bar a Seige tome.

[Espinosa]

To be frank, I'm not quite sure anymore if Resolve/Nihil is the best skill combo after watching/playing/hosting some recent battles. People assume that the Nihilist also has Resolve and then these two just wait the entire battle until they fight each other, at which point Resolve can't possibly kick in. It's probably a better idea to put Resolve where it's not expected and try to kill something in a counter and then something else on your active turn, while the Nihilist stays a defensive character to shut down other dangerous skills, and kill Vantage/Miracle users safely without eating an extra attack.

Ena's offence is about as good as Nasir's, really. She will get the same amount of damage done considering her higher hit for that -2 atk she loses to him fully transformed.

And I dunno what's up with the argument that a Top tier unit should be doing stuff the whole battle. A lot of units often wait until everyone else is KO'd to start doing things (Ike, Giffca, Makalov), while units with early contributions like Rolf and Boyd usually get their job done in the first few turns.

If anything, Ena is a midgame unit, functioning best upon transformation until Demi Band (where she can still annoy with Vantage/Guard and General-like bulk) or being KO'd.

IDK how Adept on Ena and Adept on Mist are comparable when Ena tends to get two chances to proc Adept per turn, due to Laguz speed caps, and Mist both has lousy skill and whiffs with the Runesword even if you invest in her hit.

[General Horace]

I just think if Ena was a good unit people would want to use her more in teams. In the tournament there was no inscentive to use her because of Nasir, but post tourney she hasn't been used ever except that one time I was forced to. This might be attributed to trying out all the new support combos thoguh.

[Espinosa]

Well, in the tourney it generally took people a long time (the first two weeks or so) to realise how central to winning using Nasir is, and some key Top Tier units like Tibarn and Makalov were also scarcely seen on teams for a while.

People have been testing the new supports and just generally trying support-based teams without a focus on winning, so Ena's worth is something yet to be tested. I did say, I think, that Ena is in Top mostly because she's too good in High (but it's been mentioned that Gatrie and Shinon are also too good for High).

I can definitely see some tiers breaking down into two, and some uniting maybe, but I'm not sure how to go about it yet.

[Elieson]

Well, in the tourney it generally took people a long time (the first two weeks or so) to realise how central to winning using Nasir is, and some key Top Tier units like Tibarn and Makalov were also scarcely seen on teams for a while.

People have been testing the new supports and just generally trying support-based teams without a focus on winning, so Ena's worth is something yet to be tested. I did say, I think, that Ena is in Top mostly because she's too good in High (but it's been mentioned that Gatrie and Shinon are also too good for High).

I can definitely see some tiers breaking down into two, and some uniting maybe, but I'm not sure how to go about it yet.

I'd almost propose this, a Top-High-Mid-Low-Bottom, and an [unusable tier] for units like Sothe/Reyson. That would slim down tiers a little bit

Edited May 20, 2014 by Elieson