Does nitpicking prevent us from enjoying a series?

[Vashiane]

(@ OP) An apt question. The Nostalgia Critic went into this question a bit as it relates to films, but I think some points he makes are still applicable to things like this. Personally, I tend to do the most nitpicking on games I like the most, actually; I nitpick the shit out of FE Awakening and SSB Brawl because of how much I enjoy them, I think maybe as sort of a way of expressing that-- and how much more I'd LIKE to enjoy them. Rather, I think I nitpick because I don't WANT to have any problems with something I like so much, so it's sort of wishful thinking that the game was indeed as perfect as I'd like. Nitpicking could also be a way of keeping developers accountable for their mistakes in a way (assuming devs read game reviews, which I think is a safe guess to make) by letting them know how they can improve for future installments.

It just makes me appreciate games like FE7 and LoZ Wind Waker all the more though sometimes, since I can scarcely think of anything to nitpick with them.

Took the words right out of my mind!

If I nitpick, it's not because I hate something. It's because I enjoy it, to a degree and want to enjoy it more, or just tossing around ideas for future installments.

Like Awakening, for example. Sure, I nitpick at its plot and some of the silliness but it's not perfect, nowhere NEAR perfect. But I don't hate it, not at all. I see it as something with a lot of potential, I just don't feel all of it was used. And that's okay! Even the best works have their flaws, but we still love them regardless.

[BrightBow]

I can say that all my favorite works are flawed. Perfection is impossible and I don't see an issue with getting to learn the rough edges of something you love. I could write tons of texts pointing these things out.

So I do find myself agreeing with Doug Walker for the most part. Obviously a work shouldn't be offensively stupid but logic is not everything.

Awakening goes a bit beyond that.

For one thing, terms like "flaws" and "faults" implies that there is a big picture to it that could get tainted by an imperfection. And that is something that I don't see in this game. The picture, not the taint.

Back in that "How would you handle remaking a Fire Emblem game?" thread, among other things I gave my own ideas about what themes would work with the framework established.

But while it is based on stuff in the game, I didn't have the feeling that any of those things was what they were actually going for. I tried my hardest seeing something there. Something that existed for the specific purpose to give order to all this random stupidity and was intended to hold it all together but there doesn't seem to be anything.

Don't get me wrong, there is tons of stuff that looks in a vacuum like it is supposed to be this sort of thing. A theme, character development or whatever. But it will always come out of nowhere and it will just as quickly disappear as if it was never there to begin with. The closest things it has to a consistent theme is repeating the word "fate" a lot.

Lack of continuity, not just with the games before but also with itself, annoying and obvious as it is, is the least of Awakenings issues. It is above all else a huge mess without any direction.

Kinda like a lot of my posts, which I spend so much time writing on that through all the rewrites and edits, I eventually loose track of what the original idea was so it ends up as just a huge pile of words.

Edit:

But in Awakening's case, that is still not where it ends. The main characters are also bland, the NPC's are barebone stereotypes (emphasis one barebone because there is nothing wrong with stereotypes by itself) who also don't give a shit about anything that happens (seeing how nothing that happens in the story is real, why should you as the viewer care if the character's themselves don't care?) and the villains are a complete joke.

They are not interesting, not threatening, not engaging. They are just stupid.

And that is not even going into how all the "good guys" are highly unpleasant individuals who indulge themselves into killing sentient being like it gives them an erection. Personally I like to illustrate this by describing it as a mixture of "My little Pony" and "No More Heroes" without the latter's self awareness.

I did find it highly disturbing and unpleasant every since I realized that the likes of Virion's quotes aren't reserved for Risen. Which was naturally very early.

Btw, that is no exaggeration here. The demo made me believe that characters had different quotes for human and Risen enemies specifically because clearly Virion wouldn't use those quotes against actual humans.

Add in the non-existent map variety and I find it difficult to find anything to get engaged to, let alone getting engaged to it to the point where I can tolerate or even overlook all this disgusting crap in the game.

Edited March 19, 2014 by BrightBow

[metalsnowman3]

I still will never understand how you (BrightBow) say Awakening's characters are so bland when 99% of all the fire emblem characters are pretty generic and not anything that original. I actually liked how the minor characters got more time to talk with a lot of different people, even if they have a one note personality. Path of Radiance is great but a lot of those characters also were one note and barely register. FE4 I thought was going to be exploding with characters with personality the way people talk about it, but outside of Alvis and Julius, no one really had any character development. It just seems people infer a lot of these characteristics that are not in the game. Actually, the only characters that really have interesting backgrounds in the FE games that I have played are the main villains, and Ike's was cool too.

Nitpicking is fine. Though some people take this game too seriously and not at face value.

[Thor Odinson]

The difference between Awakening and FE4 is that FE4 had no support system whereas FE13 has a support system and instead of using all those conversation slots for full character development, just basically repeated the same stuff over and over again. Mind, I'd love FE4 with a support convo system, but only if they're actually well-written.

I was excited to read them at first, when the games just came out in Japan and ChinaFE was posting translated Chinese conversations, and at first they're hilarious, but the more I read (and translated into English) I got sick of them because of how repetitive the content are and couldn't even bring myself to translate anymore. Each individual support isn't necessarily a problem, but together they don't do a whole lot more than just one or two supports per person when there's about 10. It's a wasted opportunity.

The gimmicky stuff are fine and fun in moderation, but when the vast majority of the supports are like that, especially since those spaces could be used for actual character development, it just gets stale.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[Loki Laufeyson]

ladies. please, stay on topic. you can talk about your thor+loki otp sexfictions somewhere else

This is fftf, mate. Deal with it. B)

I never nitpick the most recent games of franchises.

The nitpick train starts when the next game comes.

Fire Emblem Awakening is still safe.

Oh dude, please dont be That Guy so serious right now. I hate dat shit. This is why the Zelda Cycle exists. PLEASE STOP DOING THAT! Buy a game, play it for two years, and then decide to hate it. That shit... omg!

Like, why the hell start nitpicking or outright hating on something years later when you've had it for hella fuckin days and played the shit out of it? AGh!

I still will never understand how you (BrightBow) say Awakening's characters are so bland when 99% of all the fire emblem characters are pretty generic and not anything that original.

Seriously. Dis right here. Most FE characters are just something thats been done before. In some cases, just better than others. Soren has been done before in fantasy stories. Hes just a little more interesting this time around. Virion isnt anything new either.

Ehhh, brother, alas the supports in Awakening were just inconsistent with the plot which was the biggest problem and why they were stale.

[Thor Odinson]

Awakening's supports disappointed me twice. Once in Japanese (well, I was reading the Chinese versions but still) and another time in English. I thought localisation would make them less repetitive and for a second in the English release, I almost thought it'd happen, and then I read all of them and was disappointed sorely again.

Mind, I still enjoy the gameplay portion of FEA, but neither writing nor design impresses me. It does not mean I think FE:A is a piece of terrible abomination, though: I critique things I like because I think they could be better. We artists do this to each other because this is how we improve. We look at the faults in our work and fix them so they can become asymptotically closer to perfection. If I think it's hopelessly bad, I wouldn't even bother.

[peener weener]

fire emblem is not a series known for its intricate plot, fascinating narrative, interesting writing and character building and development lmao

[Thor Odinson]

But doesn't mean it can't be

At least I don't shit on awakening nearly as hard as the shit I draw

I make legitimately bad draw crai erryday

Edited March 20, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[Integrity]

fire emblem is not a series known for its intricate plot, fascinating narrative, interesting writing and character building and development lmao

BUT MY ANIMES

[Loki Laufeyson]

Awakening's supports disappointed me twice. Once in Japanese (well, I was reading the Chinese versions but still) and another time in English. I thought localisation would make them less repetitive and for a second in the English release, I almost thought it'd happen, and then I read all of them and was disappointed sorely again.

Mind, I still enjoy the gameplay portion of FEA, but neither writing nor design impresses me. It does not mean I think FE:A is a piece of terrible abomination, though: I critique things I like because I think they could be better. We artists do this to each other because this is how we improve. We look at the faults in our work and fix them so they can become asymptotically closer to perfection. If I think it's hopelessly bad, I wouldn't even bother.

Heh. That sucks that the original version was really bad. Sounds like the localization had more promise to start with. Har.

I get where yer coming from cuz i agree that the supports and A LOT of shit in Awakening is kinda dumpy. But like, yeah im just not arsed to let it get in my way when enjoying the game.

And yes, artists do this. So do musicians. I used to nitpick the hell out of other musicians and they'd get all buttmad and say i didnt know what i was on about. I'd just laugh and say "If i thought you were shit, i wouldnt have opened my mouth to begin with, bucko. You are better than that. Come on." Cue puzzled look.

I want the supports to be like FE9 again. D:

[Thor Odinson]

The localisation for Awakening I'd say is very good. For what they had to work with, it's quite impressive.

[BrightBow]

I still will never understand how you (BrightBow) say Awakening's characters are so bland when 99% of all the fire emblem characters are pretty generic and not anything that original. I actually liked how the minor characters got more time to talk with a lot of different people, even if they have a one note personality. Path of Radiance is great but a lot of those characters also were one note and barely register. FE4 I thought was going to be exploding with characters with personality the way people talk about it, but outside of Alvis and Julius, no one really had any character development. It just seems people infer a lot of these characteristics that are not in the game. Actually, the only characters that really have interesting backgrounds in the FE games that I have played are the main villains, and Ike's was cool too.

Wait, Ike is the only one? Really? I mean, that game has Jill. I would make a case for at least those Tellius characters that I listed over at Anacybele's Top 15 characters topic but Jill's exclusion of all people does surprise me.

Anyway, some of the PoR characters most certainly are like that. Ilyana is effectively your average Awakening character. Everything she ever says is about food, right to her death quote. Otherwise, there is nothing to her.

I mean, Oscar fights for his family, Zihark fights for a better future for Beorc and Laguz, Jill fights for her convictions, Mia fights to get stronger and she stays with Ike because she respects him, Mist fights so that no one will die when she isn't around, Soren fights for Ike, Tormod fights for an end of the Laguz slavery, Shinon fights to get ahead in the world, Lethe fights for her king. Even Kieran fights for glory and the restoration of his homeland. However, Ilyana fights for... Yeah, she is generic cute and that's it. Similar with a bunch of other characters, sure.

But I don't mind them. Having a few comic relief character or two is fine. The difference is that Awakening has a comic relief cast, to the point that there isn't even a straight man left that you can pair them up with. Everyone is just as insane. They also barely have any ties to the world that they live in or a presence during the main game.

And among the main cast, there is a good dynamic. Soren is pragmatic, cold and intelligent while Titania is his opposite, being noble, knightly and experienced. Ike as the leader has to get them to work together and make decisions based on their respective viewpoints.

Awakening has a Golden Sun dynamic, where almost every line could come from everyone. Now Frederick could play a distinctive role as the serious and careful. But after the first few chapters, he does very little but fill the role that would normally be taken by a faceless soldier giving a report.

And then there is the issue that the main plot is so much more lively over in Tellius. There are tons of different characters, factions and motivations involved in the main plot.

But quite frankly, I already prefer someone like Oscar to almost anyone in Awakening, as long as they can do as much as going through a life or death battle without making a dozen puns about cooking or whatever.

fire emblem is not a series known for its intricate plot, fascinating narrative, interesting writing and character building and development lmao

Yes, it is. The series is in fact knows for it's intriguing story telling. Saying it has always been perceived as bad is just plain wrong and has always been wrong ever since people first made a habit out of that as a lazy way to dismiss criticism. Just look at any review whose author doesn't complain about a lack of Mii support in Radiant Dawn. Of course, those same sites usually say that Awakening has an intriguing cast.

But hey, if you set the bar so high that something like PoR counts as badly written, then that makes Awakening.just all the worse by comparison.

Edited March 20, 2014 by BrightBow

[peener weener]

Man, sometimes it's like I'm the only one reading reviews and knows about the actual reputation of the series outside of the Smash fanbase.

HAHA HA HAHAHAHAHA

[BrightBow]

HAHA HA HAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, that line was indeed stupid. But what is the basis for your more enlightened view on the perception of the franchise in the public eye?

[Nobody]

Legitimately question:

what's "the the actual reputation of the series outside of the Smash fanbase." ?

[peener weener]

i have no fucking clue about the opinion of the public eye, i was really giving my own, which i assume everyone agrees with because i'm right 120% of the time

[Loki Laufeyson]

Stolypin <3

The majority of the fanbase seems to be pretty cool with Awakening from what i can gather.

[BrightBow]

Legitimately question:

what's "the the actual reputation of the series outside of the Smash fanbase." ?

My statement was based on the professional critics that are available online. They are also based on some old magazine reviews but I obviously couldn't link to those even if they weren't based on memory by now and that they actually were in English.

Anyway, if critics don't count and an appropriate reputation does not exist, then saying that Fire Emblem is "not known for its intricate plot, fascinating narrative, interesting writing and character building and development" is only correct in the sense that the series isn't known at all outside of critics. So it's absolute nonsense to say that and pretend that it is an argument.

Edited March 20, 2014 by BrightBow

[peener weener]

My statement was based on the professional critics that are available online. They are also based on some old magazine reviews but I obviously couldn't link to those even if they weren't based on memory by now and that they actually were in English.

Anyway, if critics don't count and an appropriate reputation does not exist, then saying that Fire Emblem is "not known for its intricate plot, fascinating narrative, interesting writing and character building and development" is only correct in the sense that the series isn't known at all outside of critics. So it's absolute nonsense to say that and pretend that it is an argument.

when did i ever? what was meant by my statement is that i believe fire emblem as a series has poor writing. i could honestly not give less of a shit about videogame journalism, but i have seen a similar sentiment being expressed in what i interact with of the fandom. i assumed the rest of it is like-minded, which might be wrong, but shrug.

[metalsnowman3]

All those characters in PoR are pretty one note, I mean you summed them up in like 2 words. Yeah I like Jill too but even the Awakening characters have their small back stories. Vaike wants to help his friends and family that are poor. Maribelle wants everyone to be treated equally. Lon'qu fights to forget his past trauma. Virion and Cherche fight to restore Roseanne. I mean they aren't that different from PoR's cast. Even Henry and Ricken talk about how the war sucks and Henry goes on to talk about how some of the people he knew got killed by the Shepherds. From what I saw most of the video game critics loved the focus on relationships when this game first came out and was one of the only reasons I went out to buy it since I disliked Shadow Dragon so much.

Also, how many video games are of serious literary merit? Especially the best games. Like none. You can nitpick all day about how Link has zero character since he literally doesn't say anything but that doesn't mean that the Zelda games are bad. The best games usually have a good, cohesive (and usually epic like) story and likeable characters, and maybe Awakening didn't have the most cohesive but it was still solid compared to all the other games and when I first played it I did want to see how it ended. (Also, seriously shadow dragon was freaking boring in terms of story, or at least the way they presented it when I went through it)

[Thor Odinson]

I don't know about you but I play Assassin's Creed for the story and characters

parkouring and stabbing people is just a nice bonus

Ezio's leather pants are a very nice bonus

Edited March 20, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[BANRYU]

I don't know how many games are of serious literary merit, but there are definitely those that have it-- Atlus games like Catherine and Persona (from what I hear, anyway) have pretty good writing, and I'd count Fire Emblem (though perhaps not Awakening) among them in terms of being pretty easy for audiences to get invested in. I don't know if they're quite on the level of other games, but I would definitely say that the story is a big part of the appeal for most FE games. That's still true in Awakening, even if the story is rushed and dumbed down in a lot of ways that make it feel less significant than other FE stories. Characters help a plot, but they're not everything to it, which is probably why games like PoR and GotHW had a bigger impact on people who played them than Awakening did.

[MRDRHAWK]

Catherine's pretty legit story-wise, though it helps that it has a solid dub and isn't technologically behind like the Persona games tend to be.

That said, the Persona games are quite impressive in their own right in terms of story, though they need to make up their damn minds as to whether or not the series is depressing as all fuck or happy gay rainbow time.

Even so, are they literary masterpieces? Fuck no, they're means of entertainment. And I think there are precisely zero people who got pissed at the stories for either Persona 3 or 4 for being cliche at all (any complaints I've seen levied towards the games are surrounding the pacing, which both 3 and 4 have difficulty with in some form).

[Ike-Mike]

What might be a nitpick to one might be a huge problem to someone else.

[Djing]

Oh dude, please dont be That Guy so serious right now. I hate dat shit. This is why the Zelda Cycle exists. PLEASE STOP DOING THAT! Buy a game, play it for two years, and then decide to hate it. That shit... omg!

Like, why the hell start nitpicking or outright hating on something years later when you've had it for hella fuckin days and played the shit out of it? AGh!

Well I never said I was proud of doing that. That's just what I do. Hindsight is 20/20.

After I stopped playing Awakening, I've pretty much stopped thinking about. When the next game comes, I'll be reminded of Awakening and begin judging it. It's kind of like reverse nostalgia.

What is the Zelda Cycle btw?

Edited March 21, 2014 by Spaceman Craig