Hatred is also a choice, and I will leave it at that.

[Rapier]

Reason has nothing to do with feeling emotions. I can't think myself into not hating Republicans.

You can only like/dislike something for a reason, even if it is a subconscious one. It doesn't simply come out of nowhere. That being, I'd say reason is very related to emotions and vice-versa.

It's not really a choice if you no longer have control over it.

Here is an example. Drug addicts may indeed have a choice when they first start taking drugs. But later on, they get addicted and lose that choice-making ability. Just because it was a choice a first doesn't mean it's a choice later on.

A drug addict can get treatment and recover, he only needs a motive for this. Of course, I am also refering to this example metaphorically. A person can stop hating after they find a reason, just like a person can stop loving after finding a reason. The thing is, after someone chooses to love/hate something, they need good reasons to change.

[Chiki]

You can only like/dislike something for a reason, even if it is a subconscious one. It doesn't simply come out of nowhere. That being, I'd say reason is very related to emotions and vice-versa.

A drug addict can get treatment and recover, he only needs a motive for this. Of course, I am also refering to this example metaphorically. A person can stop hating after they find a reason, just like a person can stop loving after finding a reason. The thing is, after someone chooses to love/hate something, they need good reasons to change.

If it's a "subconscious" one then that's just a point in my favor... You mean "unconscious." By definition you can't control that.

He can't decide to. There are things called family interventions. Oftentimes drug addicts can't do it themselves.

[dondon151]

@Chiki/Dondon- Have you never changed your feelings about someone? Began disliking them and then liked them after a while, or vice versa?

yes, but that's irrelevant. i have already addressed this: it is not any more possible to choose to like someone whom you hate than it is to choose to hate someone whom you like.

if you've been in the position of coming to like a person whom you've previously hated, are you able to choose to dislike that person at a moment's notice? (my guess is: probably not.)

A drug addict can get treatment and recover, he only needs a motive for this.

it's really not as simple as this. i doubt that you'll find a single drug addict who is satisfied with his dependence - they have plenty of motivation to recover from drug addiction - so why don't they all do it?

[Phoenix Wright]

If it's a "subconscious" one then that's just a point in my favor... You mean "unconscious." By definition you can't control that.

He can't decide to. There are things called family interventions. Oftentimes drug addicts can't do it themselves.

yes, but that's irrelevant. i have already addressed this: it is not any more possible to choose to like someone whom you hate than it is to choose to hate someone whom you like.

if you've been in the position of coming to like a person whom you've previously hated, are you able to choose to dislike that person at a moment's notice? (my guess is: probably not.)

it's really not as simple as this. i doubt that you'll find a single drug addict who is satisfied with his dependence - they have plenty of motivation to recover from drug addiction - so why don't they all do it?

do either of you know any drug addicts?

[Chiki]

do either of you know any drug addicts?

I can always count on you to say or imply something completely ignorant.

http://emlab.berkeley.edu/~rabin/addiction_self-control_rabin.pdf

http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/the-mechanisms-of-self-control-lessons-from-addiction

Loss of control over some aspects of behavior is usually held to be a defining feature of addiction.

[bottlegnomes]

So I skipped to the end, but did we ever decide on a definition of hatred? Otherwise this whole debate isn't going to go anywhere.

Also, PhoenixWright is correct. Speaking as an addict (tobacco), it is a choice. It's a choice with unpleasant ramifications, but a choice. Most of the time, addicts fall back into usage because they have no strong commitment to staying clean.

For a parallel, say I have a headache. I can choose to take asprin to make the headache go away immediately or I can choose to not take any asprin and have the headache stay around longer, but go away eventually. Now replace headache with any number of withdrawal symptoms and asprin with smoking. The difference is that there's no negative to me taking asprin, but there is to me smoking. It's a matter of whether I'm willing to put my immediate pleasure over my longterm pleasure, which is a choice.

[Phoenix Wright]

I can always count on you to say or imply something completely ignorant.

http://emlab.berkeley.edu/~rabin/addiction_self-control_rabin.pdf

http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/the-mechanisms-of-self-control-lessons-from-addiction

you can idiotically think i implied something, or you can actually answer my question. i ask because, even if either of you are right (i'm not stating how i feel about it yet), neither of you showed any real knowledge with regards to how an addict thinks or behaves.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Phoenix Wright

[dondon151]

i'm sorry, but in no universe is drug addiction a choice. you cannot just choose to stop being addicted. the chemistry in your brain is preventing you from doing so. i'm not saying that you can't take steps to begin shaking off the addiction.

For a parallel, say I have a headache. I can choose to take asprin to make the headache go away immediately or I can choose to not take any asprin and have the headache stay around longer, but go away eventually. Now replace headache with any number of withdrawal symptoms and asprin with smoking. The difference is that there's no negative to me taking asprin, but there is to me smoking. It's a matter of whether I'm willing to put my immediate pleasure over my longterm pleasure, which is a choice.

i don't think this is an appropriate parallel. you don't just have a headache - you have a headache all the time, and it only becomes normal when you are high.

you can idiotically think i implied something, or you can actually answer my question. i ask because, even if either of you are right (i'm not stating how i feel about it yet), neither of you showed any real knowledge with regards to how an addict thinks or behaves.

nor did you. those in glass houses shouldn't throw black kettles. i'm not sure how us knowing drug addicts would lend any credence to our cases.

Edited April 14, 2014 by dondon151

[Phoenix Wright]

i'm sorry, but in no universe is drug addiction a choice. you cannot just choose to stop being addicted. the chemistry in your brain is preventing you from doing so. i'm not saying that you can't take steps to begin shaking off the addiction.

i don't think this is an appropriate parallel. you don't just have a headache - you have a headache all the time, and it only becomes normal when you are high.

nor did you. those in glass houses shouldn't throw black kettles.

why is it so hard to get people to answer simple questions around here? how does a question tell you anything about what i know about addicts, anyway? you assume so much, yet care to tell me so little. why is this?

just answer the question.

[dondon151]

chiki already answered your question, unless you mean to imply that personal familiarity with a drug addict is more elucidating than scientific research.

[Phoenix Wright]

like i said, i wasn't implying how i felt on the subject. neither of you answered the question, actually. not to mention i required an answer from each of you, separately.

hey olwen, no data? give me papers with data. mathematical models are nice, but data is far better.

edit: what scientific research? where? enlighten me, please.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Phoenix Wright

[dondon151]

it is not my obligation to cater to your every bitter whim, but http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3569166/ and related papers should provide for some light reading.

[bottlegnomes]

i'm sorry, but in no universe is drug addiction a choice. you cannot just choose to stop being addicted. the chemistry in your brain is preventing you from doing so. i'm not saying that you can't take steps to begin shaking off the addiction.

The addiction itself isn't a choice, no. I should have specified that. The acting on it is, which is what I was talking about.

i don't think this is an appropriate parallel. you don't just have a headache - you have a headache all the time, and it only becomes normal when you are high.

Are implying that withdrawal symptoms last forever? Also, no, that's not how it works. For my personal addiction, the physical withdrawal symptoms actually last about 3 days. After that, it's mental. And that's just a matter of habituation, which also doesn't last forever.

[Phoenix Wright]

The addiction itself isn't a choice, no. I should have specified that. The acting on it is, which is what I was talking about.

Are implying that withdrawal symptoms last forever? Also, no, that's not how it works. For my personal addiction, the physical withdrawal symptoms actually last about 3 days. After that, it's mental. And that's just a matter of habituation, which also doesn't last forever.

this is also how i interpreted it, because questioning otherwise is useless.

[Chiki]

like i said, i wasn't implying how i felt on the subject. neither of you answered the question, actually. not to mention i required an answer from each of you, separately.

hey olwen, no data? give me papers with data. mathematical models are nice, but data is far better.

edit: what scientific research? where? enlighten me, please.

You seem to have something against scientific data. You asked for personal experience (as if that's relevant at all) instead of it. I honestly can't understand why people think addictions are choices. They're almost by definition not.

Acting on it is obviously not a choice, even if it feels like it is. Why is it so hard for addicts to give up drugs in the first place? Lol.

[dondon151]

Are implying that withdrawal symptoms last forever? Also, no, that's not how it works. For my personal addiction, the physical withdrawal symptoms actually last about 3 days.

no, that's not what i was implying. 3 days is a long time to deal with withdrawal symptoms, and it's trivially easy to make those symptoms go away - just use the drug. certain types of withdrawal, especially alcohol withdrawal, are life-threatening.

After that, it's mental. And that's just a matter of habituation, which also doesn't last forever.

i'm not sure what this means. ex-addicts are susceptible to relapse because certain actions and behaviors are associated with drug use in their minds, and so they have to avoid those triggers. they don't really have a choice with regard to what causes them to relapse.

[bottlegnomes]

no, that's not what i was implying. 3 days is a long time to deal with withdrawal symptoms, and it's trivially easy to make those symptoms go away - just use the drug. certain types of withdrawal, especially alcohol withdrawal, are life-threatening.

That was the point of the asprin parallel. All I have to do to make the headache go away is take an asprin. Or I can not take asprin and tough out the headache.

Anyway, I'm really not getting the point of saying the headache is all the time. Do you really think that addicts constantly crave their drug?

As for the alcohol example, I'm well aware, and again, I honestly don't see what you're getting at.

i'm not sure what this means. ex-addicts are susceptible to relapse because certain actions and behaviors are associated with drug use in their minds, and so they have to avoid those triggers. they don't really have a choice with regard to what causes them to relapse.

That's a matter of Pavlovian habituation. I used to smoke after meals, so for a while, whenever I had a meal, I really wanted a cigarette afterwards. By not indulging in it, my brain and body got rid of the association, so now I have no real desire to smoke immediately after eating.

There is a physical reaction that since my body was once addicted to nicotine, it's more primed for it again. When I first started smoking, it took a few month of regular usage to become physically dependent. However, since my body is primed for it, a couple of days of minimal regular usage and I'd experience withdrawal symptoms again. Anyway, they have a choice to relapse or not. Trust me, I've done it a number of times.

Acting on it is obviously not a choice, even if it feels like it is. Why is it so hard for addicts to give up drugs in the first place? Lol.

Really? Then why does anyone quit unless they're physically forced to? I already answered this question: because their commitment to staying clean isn't as strong as their desire to indulge.

Edited April 14, 2014 by bottlegnomes

[Rehab]

On drug addicts: I'm reminded of a section in Malcolm X's autobio where he talked about his (black Muslim) community helping people in it who were addicted hard to shit like heroin to quit. IIRC, a whole group of guys would go to the person's house for days (weeks maybe? I forget), make sure they didn't take any drugs, and keep them from suicide/attend to them through the whole messy ordeal- cleaning up their bile and excrement and everything, telling them "get the monkey/[white] man off your back, you can do it," etc. the whole time. They'd then (IIRC?) find ways to get them involved in the community and busy, and would continue to check up on them.

I haven't actually looked up whether there's any data on the results of their intervention/rehab (hyuck, etc) methods specifically, or how they compare to any professional methods, aaand Malcolm did say some (a lot of) opinionated stuff in the book (proudly so, of course), so I don't have any direct peer-reviewed/certified evidence to flop out that'd show they really were/are as successful as he said they were at breaking their habits, including any relapses, but he sure sounded proud of their track record. (He said it was perfect, IIRC.)

Disclaimer: I have never actually spoken to a drug-addicted person about their addiction (or any, knowingly), etc

Hatred is not a choice. I hate myself. I am many things apparently. Monster, ignorant, lazy, thick-headed, brutish, racist, republican, sexist, pig with no hope or chance, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. How could I not hate myself?

Okay, this is what I was talking about, regarding "how you think influencing (or even determining) what we think." Whether you mean you've been called these things, or that you really think them about yourself, Snowy, you sound like you might fit the bill of "could benefit from CBT."

Edited April 14, 2014 by Rehab

[Chiki]

That was the point of the asprin parallel. All I have to do to make the headache go away is take an asprin. Or I can not take asprin and tough out the headache.

Anyway, I'm really not getting the point of saying the headache is all the time. Do you really think that addicts constantly crave their drug?

As for the alcohol example, I'm well aware, and again, I honestly don't see what you're getting at.

That's a matter of Pavlovian habituation. I used to smoke after meals, so for a while, whenever I had a meal, I really wanted a cigarette afterwards. By not indulging in it, my brain and body got rid of the association, so now I have no real desire to smoke immediately after eating.

There is a physical reaction that since my body was once addicted to nicotine, it's more primed for it again. When I first started smoking, it took a few month of regular usage to become physically dependent. However, since my body is primed for it, a couple of days of minimal regular usage and I'd experience withdrawal symptoms again. Anyway, they have a choice to relapse or not. Trust me, I've done it a number of times.

Really? Then why does anyone quit unless they're physically forced to? I already answered this question: because their commitment to staying clean isn't as strong as their desire to indulge.

And why isn't their commitment to stay clean as strong despite knowing how bad, say, heroin is?

The entire world is trying to discover how to improve self-control during addiction and we're behind here because of people saying you have full control while you're addicted. This is just silly. =_=

Edited April 14, 2014 by Chiki

[bottlegnomes]

Because their immediate pleasure is more important to them than their long term well being, because they think they're an exception and that they won't suffer those negative consequences, and so on. Using your logic, why doesn't everyone eat healthy all time time? Why do you play video games when you could be learning something immediately applicable to your life?

I didn't say you have full control; the addiction affects your judgement just like any threat of displeasure. But in the end, whether I buy a pack of cigarettes after I finish posting this or not is a decision I actively make.

Edited April 14, 2014 by bottlegnomes

[dondon151]

Anyway, I'm really not getting the point of saying the headache is all the time. Do you really think that addicts constantly crave their drug?

yes. that's what substance dependence (more specifically, physical dependence) means. a drug addict who has a physical dependence requires the drug not to feel high, but to feel normal.

Edited April 14, 2014 by dondon151

[bottlegnomes]

yes. that's what substance dependence (more specifically, physical dependence) means. a drug addict who has a physical dependence requires the drug not to feel high, but to feel normal.

That lack of feeling normal is exactly what withdrawal is. You don't instantly go into withdrawal the second you quit actively using a substance. That's like saying someone who's not actively eating constantly feels like they're starving. Do you realize how absurd what you're saying sounds?

Going back to my initial parallel:

If I have a headache, I can do one of two things: (1) take aspirin and make it go away immediately or (2) I can wait until the headache subsides on its own.

If I'm physically dependent on a substance and am going through withdrawal, I can do one of two things: (1) use the substance and make the symptoms go away immediately or (2) wait until the withdrawal symptoms go away on their own.

The difference is that the first option in the latter scenario has potential ramifications that make it questionable, unlike taking an aspirin if I have a headache.

Now where exactly is this parallel wrong?

Edited April 14, 2014 by bottlegnomes

[dondon151]

That lack of feeling normal is exactly what withdrawal is. You don't instantly go into withdrawal the second you quit actively using a substance. That's like saying someone who's not actively eating constantly feels like they're starving. Do you realize how absurd what you're saying sounds?

no, this is wrong. you've entirely misrepresented what i've said, and i demand an apology. i did not say, or even imply, that one instantly goes into withdrawal the moment he stops using a substance. that would be as absurd as saying that one instantly stops being high the moment he stops using (in fact, it's literally the same mechanism). i am saying no more than what science is telling me or you about the mechanisms behind substance dependence.

If I have a headache, I can do one of two things: (1) take aspirin and make it go away immediately or (2) I can wait until the headache subsides on its own.

If I'm physically dependent on a substance and am going through withdrawal, I can do one of two things: (1) use the substance and make the symptoms go away immediately or (2) wait until the withdrawal symptoms go away on their own.

Now where exactly is this parallel wrong?

your normal state is not "have headache." the action of taking an aspirin does not foster dependence on aspirin.

Edited April 15, 2014 by dondon151

[bottlegnomes]

no, this is wrong. you've entirely misrepresented what i've said, and i demand an apology. i did not say, or even imply, that one instantly goes into withdrawal the moment he stops using a substance. that would be as absurd as saying that one instantly stops being high the moment he stops using (in fact, it's literally the same mechanism). i am saying no more than what science is telling me or you about the mechanisms behind substance dependence.

If by high you simply mean the presence of the substance in their system, then I do apologize; I misunderstood what you were saying. Though I would suggest saying the absence of the substance in their system, not high or use the substance, next time, as those imply active use or perception.

your normal state is not "have headache."

Your normal state isn't to be physically dependent on a substance, hence why the dependence goes away.

the action of taking an aspirin does not foster dependence on aspirin.

This is completely irrelevant to the parallel and already been addressed. Now you're just trying to distract from the point. Edited April 15, 2014 by bottlegnomes

[Chiki]

I think you're confusing an action that's conscious and an action that's a choice.

An action that's conscious just has to feel as if you do it. For example, people who are hypnotized feel as if they have a choice, though they have none. You could just be deluded.

An action that's a choice just can't feel as if you do it. It really has to be the case that you have the ability to do otherwise/decide otherwise.

An addicted person would have chosen the better choice (to not take drugs) if they were not addicted. This is clear reasoning in favor of the fact that there is a lack of self-control. Addicted people have compromised decision-making abilities due to their body being adjusted to taking drugs. Addicted people often need family intervention because they're so incapable of getting off drugs themselves.

You bring up an example of choice by saying that you can "condition" yourself into not smoking if you follow a routine. This was mentioned in the first couple pages by me, and I granted it already. That doesn't mean you can control your short-term decisions.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Chiki