Do you want the Avatar to stay?

[Shadow Knight]

Get rid of the Avatar? No chance. First off let me emphasize that everything below is opinion based. Anyone who reads it doesn't hav to agree with it or assume that they're wrong and I'm right or whatever.

First off let's talk about gameplay. I hav to disagree that the Avatar is exactly a gamebreaker. In Fe12 he definitely can be for the first part of the game. However, once you hav to cross Anri's way things get much more difficult. On my first playthrough of FE12 my avatar was my point man. However, I learned the harsh lesson that you can't solo a Fire emblem game with one character. Once the wyverns and pegasus knights entered the picture every other character I had got slaughtered. This forced me to allocate enemies and exp that normally would hav gone to my avatar over to other characters. Even though my character was a max hero during the last 7 missions there were times when he almost got killed and I was forced to back him up.

FE13 is much more straightforward. Sure you can level up your avatar like crazy and give him the best skills and equipment but that's totally up to you. You don't have to reclass your avatar several times over or give him brave weapons. As for the support system I think its perfectly balanced. Sure the character being supported gets their stats boosted and can get second or third attacks but that comes at a severe cost: Actions for other units. For example if I hav a Hero who has an S rank with a character who boosts Res than I am put in a better position to withstand most Hero's weaknesses which is magic. However, bc I have paired Lissa with the Avatar I hav lost the ability to attack two separate enemies within one turn. This means that I risk getting attacked by twice the amount of enemies which means more chances of recieving damage. Should I need to heal my hero I will have to burn a turn in order to separate him and Lissa and then use up another turn to heal all the while leaving Lissa and my hero at the mercy of the AI.

Now for the Story

FE12: I never played the original Mystery of the Emblem so I can't really speak to how Marth was portayed compared to the new game. But to be honest most of the Fire Emblem 12 characters seemed pretty generic. You have Marth who is the classic hero boy scout, the Avatar who wants to marry Marth (Even the Male), Norne the typical nice girl, Linde the ice queen who eventually warms up to you after 1 conversation, Jagen the hardass drill sargent etc. Perhaps generic is the wrong word, maybe the better description is wasted potential. The characters themselves hav interesting stories per say and some relationships actually had potential to imprint personality onto the avatar. For example Linde's supports with the main character revealing how they both never knew their parents. Of course this goes back to the main problem plaguing every fire emblem game; disconnect from the main characters. For example, why should I care about Marth and Caeda's relationship if it only amounts to three conversations? My main point though is that while some scenes do feel out of place, mainly the Jagen standing up for Marth scene, there wasn't really much for the Avatar to take away from. Marth is still the generic hero who hates sacrificing anything that breathes, and Jagen is stil the hardass trainer/general. Besides you can't say the avatar idea is bad when it comes to integrating the concept into the story based on this game. The story for FE12 was already written many years beforehand without the Avatar concept in mind and therefore it was inevitable that adding another main character to a game loaded with main characters would cause plot devices to shift.

FE13: Contrary to a lot of what I've seen people posting in this forum I didn't really see a ton of asskissing towards my Avatar. In fact there were a lot of examples pointing towards the opposite. For example despite the fact that it is shown numerous times that your avatar is the one calling the shots during battles the game is always reinforcing the fact that Chrom is the one in charge. You hav 4 chapters of Frederick not trusting you until you win him over through support conversations, Lissa pranks the hell out of you, Maribelle treats you with Disrespect until you save her in Chapter 5 and god forbid the world finds out your true identity. Even Lucina contemplates killing you. If anything most of the Asskissing goes to Chrom throughout the game. He's the one who recruits characters, has all of the girls drooling over him, and is lauded as the commander and glorious leader of the shepherds despite the fact that his victories are mainly due to you. Now of course the story is far from perfect and is full of cliches but it is a marked improvement over FE12's last minute Avatar integration. Also the added component of marriages caused me to appreciate the characters a lot more than in previous Fire Emblem games. For example a couple times on a lunatic classic playthrough I restarted my whole 3DS just to avoid losing Severa who was my daughter. This is why I hav to disagree with the idea of having the Avatar be in the background and not a major part of the story. The largest reason why most people's Avatar's became gamebreakers in the first place is bc they were an extension of the ppl themselves and moving them back would make them just another generic character. In fact I think it would be better to give the Avatar more personality instead of just another anime cliched power of friendship guy.

Finally as for the bad fan fics and Waifu obsessees, even if the avatar is removed your going to hav to deal with crazed shippers no matter what. Fan fics you don't hav to read if you don't want to and when it comes to Waifus and Shippers just ignore them. There are always ppl who are so obnoxious that they feel that their opinion is above everyone elses but just bc they are like that doesn't mean you should blame a good mechanic like the ability to place yourself in the fire emblem universe. Deal with it.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Shadow Knight

[BANRYU]

Personally, I didn't appreciate the characters in FE7 any less when my avatar character didn't have the option to marry them.

I was perfectly happy with my role of bossing the others around-- technically that's a more accurate portrayal of the role of you as a player than actually having yourself participate in the combat is (since your MU's combat is as mechanical and uncontrolled as everyone else's). Not that I didn't enjoy making an MU as well, mind you, but my criticisms with FE13's avatar remain largely the same.

I would just like to point out that your avatar's supports with Frederick have nothing to do with winning his trust and everything to do with acclimating him to the taste of bear meat. You could potentially interpret it as winning his trust, but that's kind of disproven by the fact that HE approaches YOU, implying that he trusts you enough not to poison him or something. There's basically no indication given when Frederick starts trusting you until around Chapter 21-22 from what I recall, pretty late in the game.

As for the ass-kissing of Chrom, well... that's a legit criticism, from what I hear.

As a loose interpretation from a casual perspective, I'd say that the praise Chrom gets is usually justified from a storytelling standpoint, since he's technically your (the avatar's) boss and you work under his leadership and large-scale decision-making-- even if all the decisions in the actual combat are yours to make. Looking at the story more closely and critically apparently (from what I hear, anyway) reveals Chrom to be actually a pretty bad leader who can't separate his emotions from his decisions and whatnot, but I don't want to get too into that because that's mainly related to the bad writing, and I'm just concerned with intent, and the intent is that Chrom is a dork and too overly trusting at times, but overall a good, strong leader.

Unfortunately, Shadow Knight, I think one thing your testimonials have proven is that giving the player a personal avatar unit makes him/her predisposed to try to solo the game with him/her, which as you painfully learned, completely goes against one of the main underlying themes of Fire Emblem-- bonds and teamwork, and the strength of the group as a whole.

It's definitely true that shippers will run wild regardless of whether you have self-insert characters though lol, can't deny that.

[RJWalker]

Not caring about the characters because there is no self insert to 'experience' them? That's just... what?

I cared more about the characters when they existed for more than just pandering to the Avatar. FE12 is really bad with this. Characters have personalities forced upon them to fit the various archetypes that FE is now a slave too even though the characters that started these archtypes barely fit the modern perception of those archetypes.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i don't know, i still liked what we had support wise in FE12, more so with a few characters having some hidden depths.

Edited May 6, 2014 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Rehab]

I think Shadow Knight meant less that he didn't care about characters he didn't have an avatar to interact with than that he was, like, extra invested when one of them was the daughter of the character he made.

I think that can be an applicable positive even if you don't think of the avatar as a self-insert, too.

[NinjaMonkey]

Unfortunately, Shadow Knight, I think one thing your testimonials have proven is that giving the player a personal avatar unit makes him/her predisposed to try to solo the game with him/her, which as you painfully learned, completely goes against one of the main underlying themes of Fire Emblem-- bonds and teamwork, and the strength of the group as a whole.

If one of the underlying themes in FE is to build up a team of people working together to beat their foes, then how come Seth can solo the entirety of FE8? Or Ike, the entirety of FE9?

Edited May 6, 2014 by NinjaMonkey

[BANRYU]

If one of the underlying themes in FE is to build up a team of people working together to beat their foes, then how come Seth can solo the entirety of FE8? Or Ike, the entirety of FE9?

You're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. Looking at the leaves instead of the panoramic forest view, as it were.

Just because that's possible, it doesn't mean the teamwork and companionship thing isn't still intended as a theme of both story and gameplay in those games.

Do you really mean to tell me that that was how you played through FE8/9 the first time, your first instinct was just to solo them?

[BrightBow]

About there supposedly even being the opposite of asskissing for Robin in the game.

First of all: Frederick never mistrusts Robin. He explains as much before the first battle even starts:

Frederick: I have every wish to trust you, stranger, but my station mandates otherwise.

Besides, once the battle starts the mistrust almost completely disappears. And the few times it does show up, it's specifically to give everyone else the opportunity to express how noble, skilled and trustworthy Robin is, all the while assuring us that Frederick doesn't actually mean it and is just cautious.

Frederick: Indeed. Perhaps you might even be capable of an explanation for how you came here?
Chrom: You fought to save Ylissean lives. My heart says that's enough.
Frederick: And your mind, milord? Will you not heed its counsel as well?
Chrom: Frederick, the Shepherds could use someone with Robin's talents. We've brigands and unruly neighbors, all looking to bloody our soil. Would you really have us lose such an able tactician? Besides, I believe his/her story, odd as it might be. (as a sidenote, the first chapter isn't even over and Chrom already makes Robin already out to be the factor that might just decide the outcome of this conflict. But back to the topic.)

Frederick: Forgive me, Your Grace, but I must speak. Robin claims to have lost his/her memory, but it is only that: a claim. We cannot rule out the possibility that he is a brigand himself/herself or even a Plegian spy.
Chrom: Frederick!
Emmeryn: Yet you allowed him/her into the castle, Chrom. Does this man/woman have your trust?
Chrom: Yes. He/She risked his/her life for our people. That's good enough for me.
Emmeryn: Well then, Robin... It seems you've earned Chrom's faith, and as such you have mine as well.

And it's not like Frederick is above praising her either.

Frederick: Might I advise patience, milord? Robin is a fine tactician, but we have been working him/her mercilessly. Even the best of us needs rest.

I guess those other guys dodging axes are just slackers. It's the guy who moves a cursor around the map who is the real employee of the month.

As for Lissa, she is obsessed with Robin from the get-go and keeps her lips glued tightly to Robin's rear until she pretty much disappears from the script.

Lissa: But holy wow, Robin! You were incredible! Swords, sorcery, AND tactics! Is there anything you can't do?

...

Lissa: But allow me to introduce Robin! He/She just joined the Shepherds. Chrom's made him/her our new tactician. You should see all the tricks he's/she's got up his/her sleeve!

Maribel's disrespect takes the form of telling Robin not to encourage Vaike. Otherwise she is just being Tsundere to Robin. In other words: She totally likes her.

Robin: Yes. I know you're not especially fond of me, but it's a relief just the same.
Maribelle: Oh, it's not a question of fondness. I am simply protective of Lissa. My treasure is very sensitive, and... Wait. Am I really justifying myself to a commoner? Gods... Yes, well, I do...apologize for being curt. And... And... And you have my thanks for your part in the rescue. There, I said it!

That leaves us with Lucina, who along with EVERYONE ELSE will just gladly risk the future so that Robin can live, despite knowing better then anyone else what Grima is capable of.

And it really is everyone else. Isn't that right Chrom?

Chrom: And the good you bring to the world will more than make up for it. You made the right choice, Robin. Everyone agrees.

And quite frankly, I don't get how anyone could not think that Robin is the most important person to literally everyone in the army after the final chapter. That one was really just embarrassing.

Those quotes of the other characters, they are not about comradely and friendship. There is no "we" in them. There is only Robin. They are just about how important Robin is to them and to remind her how amazing she is.

Even Kingdom Hearts handled that theme a lot better. As much as Sora is chilled, he would have died countless times ago without the help of his friends.

He needed his friends when he lost his Keyblade. It turned out he needed his friends after all when he abandoned them in Castle Oblivion. He needed them to protect him during his sleep. He needed them when he was stunned by Xemnas in KHII. He needed them when he got trapped in his dreams.

Robin needs his friends for nothing but to stroke his ego and then just frees herself from whatever the heck was even going on in that scene.

I consider Sora an awful Mary Sue but that only shows how bad Robin is by comparison.

Edited May 6, 2014 by BrightBow

[BANRYU]

First of all: Frederick never mistrusts Robin. He explains as much before the first battle even starts:

Frederick: I have every wish to trust you, stranger, but my station mandates otherwise.

Besides, once the battle starts the mistrust almost completely disappears. And the few times it does show up, it's specifically to give everyone else the opportunity to express how noble, skilled and trustworthy Robin is, all the while assuring us that Frederick doesn't actually mean it and is just cautious.

Frederick: Indeed. Perhaps you might even be capable of an explanation for how you came here?

Chrom: You fought to save Ylissean lives. My heart says that's enough.
Frederick: And your mind, milord? Will you not heed its counsel as well?
Chrom: Frederick, the Shepherds could use someone with Robin's talents. We've brigands and unruly neighbors, all looking to bloody our soil. Would you really have us lose such an able tactician? Besides, I believe his/her story, odd as it might be. (as a sidenote, the first chapter isn't even over and Chrom already makes Robin already out to be the factor that might just decide the outcome of this conflict. But back to the topic.)

Frederick: Forgive me, Your Grace, but I must speak. Robin claims to have lost his/her memory, but it is only that: a claim. We cannot rule out the possibility that he is a brigand himself/herself or even a Plegian spy.
Chrom: Frederick!
Emmeryn: Yet you allowed him/her into the castle, Chrom. Does this man/woman have your trust?
Chrom: Yes. He/She risked his/her life for our people. That's good enough for me.
Emmeryn: Well then, Robin... It seems you've earned Chrom's faith, and as such you have mine as well.

I'd argue that he DOES mistrust the avatar; even if it's reluctantly or out of necessity, the fact that he can't afford to trust you is self-evident in his dialogue.

The mistrust continues to last, as you showed, through the first two battles until the company returns to Ylisstol and Emmeryn implicitly tells Fred to settle down.

Even if you want to say that he WANTS to trust you because you seem likeable or whatever, you could argue that this is just more of the avatar-kissassery that everyone is complaining about in avatar-centered plots. IMO its necessary for Fred to mistrust you, both for the integrity of the plot and that of his character. In my opinion he should continue to privately distrust the MU despite Emmeryn's show of faith until he sees proof for himself that MU can be trusted. Anything less (as the plot actually gives us, in fact) would just be foolish of him as Chrom's personal guard. But the writing is what it is, I suppose.

I definitely agree about the shameful kissassery, though. Makes the avatar a totally dull character purely on the merits of the written script... (And that, ladies and germs, is why we have our personal headcanons for our MU characters.)

[Shadow Knight]

Personally, I didn't appreciate the characters in FE7 any less when my avatar character didn't have the option to marry them.

I was perfectly happy with my role of bossing the others around-- technically that's a more accurate portrayal of the role of you as a player than actually having yourself participate in the combat is (since your MU's combat is as mechanical and uncontrolled as everyone else's). Not that I didn't enjoy making an MU as well, mind you, but my criticisms with FE13's avatar remain largely the same.

I would just like to point out that your avatar's supports with Frederick have nothing to do with winning his trust and everything to do with acclimating him to the taste of bear meat. You could potentially interpret it as winning his trust, but that's kind of disproven by the fact that HE approaches YOU, implying that he trusts you enough not to poison him or something. There's basically no indication given when Frederick starts trusting you until around Chapter 21-22 from what I recall, pretty late in the game.

As for the ass-kissing of Chrom, well... that's a legit criticism, from what I hear.

As a loose interpretation from a casual perspective, I'd say that the praise Chrom gets is usually justified from a storytelling standpoint, since he's technically your (the avatar's) boss and you work under his leadership and large-scale decision-making-- even if all the decisions in the actual combat are yours to make. Looking at the story more closely and critically apparently (from what I hear, anyway) reveals Chrom to be actually a pretty bad leader who can't separate his emotions from his decisions and whatnot, but I don't want to get too into that because that's mainly related to the bad writing, and I'm just concerned with intent, and the intent is that Chrom is a dork and too overly trusting at times, but overall a good, strong leader.

Unfortunately, Shadow Knight, I think one thing your testimonials have proven is that giving the player a personal avatar unit makes him/her predisposed to try to solo the game with him/her, which as you painfully learned, completely goes against one of the main underlying themes of Fire Emblem-- bonds and teamwork, and the strength of the group as a whole.

It's definitely true that shippers will run wild regardless of whether you have self-insert characters though lol, can't deny that.

Once again opinionated, do with this whatever you will

Personally, I didn't appreciate the characters in FE7 any less when my avatar character didn't have the option to marry them.

I was perfectly happy with my role of bossing the others around-- technically that's a more accurate portrayal of the role of you as a player than actually having yourself participate in the combat is (since your MU's combat is as mechanical and uncontrolled as everyone else's). Not that I didn't enjoy making an MU as well, mind you, but my criticisms with FE13's avatar remain largely the same.

Agreed, I'm not saying that I didn't appreciate Fire Emblem characters without the avatar. Just look at my signature. Ike was a great example of a well fleshed out character. The problem with Mu's is chiefly personality and while FE13 was still way too much of a Chrom fan boy it was a step up from FE12. However, I still think that keeping the Avatar mechanic and expanding on it to add choice and personalities would be perfect for the fire emblem series.

As for the accurate portrayal idea I hav to disagree. While you may picture the usual Mu as a chessmaster or general I always considered him as more of a squad captain. My reason for this is bc he makes split second decisions based on what is happening on the battlefield. Also your view is of the units fighting in real time sword and shield clashes vs. game board pieces. Finally Marth and Chrom, leaders of their respective forces, are always in the midst of combat. Once again this is more opinionated and skewed bc I entered the Fire Emblem series later on but this was always the idea that I got even when I tried out the first gba game with Lyn after playing FE12

I would just like to point out that your avatar's supports with Frederick have nothing to do with winning his trust and everything to do with acclimating him to the taste of bear meat. You could potentially interpret it as winning his trust, but that's kind of disproven by the fact that HE approaches YOU, implying that he trusts you enough not to poison him or something. There's basically no indication given when Frederick starts trusting you until around Chapter 21-22 from what I recall, pretty late in the game.

You're right. On the other hand, my main point with the Frederick trust thing was that there isn't as much Asskissing as ppl think there is but you are correct about the Frederick supports. Though Supports are always optional so technically you could go through the game without Frederick ever trusting you to feed him. If Ch. 21-22 are the earliest indications, no Asskissing there.

As for the ass-kissing of Chrom, well... that's a legit criticism, from what I hear.

As a loose interpretation from a casual perspective, I'd say that the praise Chrom gets is usually justified from a storytelling standpoint, since he's technically your (the avatar's) boss and you work under his leadership and large-scale decision-making-- even if all the decisions in the actual combat are yours to make. Looking at the story more closely and critically apparently (from what I hear, anyway) reveals Chrom to be actually a pretty bad leader who can't separate his emotions from his decisions and whatnot, but I don't want to get too into that because that's mainly related to the bad writing, and I'm just concerned with intent, and the intent is that Chrom is a dork and too overly trusting at times, but overall a good, strong leader.

Agreed. It didn't exactly bother me persay. I like Chrom even though I'm more of a Cynic than an idealist like him. The Ass-Kissing is understandable considering he's a main character and the ancestor of Marth. I also prefer to be a character who has to work his way up. That point was less of a criticism against Chrom and more of a point that the Avatar doesn't get his Asskissed quite as often as ppl think he does. Take the Lon'qu supports for example, at first you get wrecked by his sword play. But later after he sees how you handle the big picture he then compliments you. That's not called asskissing, that's called earned praise. Same with the Mass Effect series. In the beginning of the first game commander shepard's accusations against Saren are doubted by the council. In the second game despite working for terrorists they re instate him as a spectre and he is considered to be a hero of the galaxy. Heck the entire second game is based on ppl respecting his talents.

Though I will say that while Chrom is a decent motivator I didn't like how most of the victories are attributed to him when I'm the one telling him what to do on the battlefield.

Unfortunately, Shadow Knight, I think one thing your testimonials have proven is that giving the player a personal avatar unit makes him/her predisposed to try to solo the game with him/her, which as you painfully learned, completely goes against one of the main underlying themes of Fire Emblem-- bonds and teamwork, and the strength of the group as a whole.

This is true at first, but look what happened to me. I had to restart my file bc my support units kept on dying and bc I had learned my lesson I did things right the second time around. The beauty of Fire Emblem is that it is not a one unit game. It will beat you down if you try to solo it. But if you take the time to train up other units you'll find that other units can be just as useful as your own. In fact my avatar actually ended up helping more than it hurt. By being overleveled I could use my rope a dope strategy to level my lower units.

It's definitely true that shippers will run wild regardless of whether you have self-insert characters though lol, can't deny that.

[BANRYU]

Erm I'm not sure why you quoted me twice. o___o Seems like unnecessary page stretching but w/e *shrug*

1) As for the accurate portrayal idea I hav to disagree. While you may picture the usual Mu as a chessmaster or general I always considered him as more of a squad captain. My reason for this is bc he makes split second decisions based on what is happening on the battlefield. Also your view is of the units fighting in real time sword and shield clashes vs. game board pieces. Finally Marth and Chrom, leaders of their respective forces, are always in the midst of combat. Once again this is more opinionated and skewed bc I entered the Fire Emblem series later on but this was always the idea that I got even when I tried out the first gba game with Lyn after playing FE12

2) You're right. On the other hand, my main point with the Frederick trust thing was that there isn't as much Asskissing as ppl think there is but you are correct about the Frederick supports. Though Supports are always optional so technically you could go through the game without Frederick ever trusting you to feed him. If Ch. 21-22 are the earliest indications, no Asskissing there.

3) Though I will say that while Chrom is a decent motivator I didn't like how most of the victories are attributed to him when I'm the one telling him what to do on the battlefield.

4) This is true at first, but look what happened to me. I had to restart my file bc my support units kept on dying and bc I had learned my lesson I did things right the second time around. The beauty of Fire Emblem is that it is not a one unit game. It will beat you down if you try to solo it. But if you take the time to train up other units you'll find that other units can be just as useful as your own. In fact my avatar actually ended up helping more than it hurt. By being overleveled I could use my rope a dope strategy to level my lower units.

5)

1) Back up for a second-- I'm not talking about the player character as he/she exists in the in-game universe, I'm literally referring to the extent of the human player's interaction with the game. You don't affect the results of combat in the least, you merely train your units and pit them against the odds that you know they'll win against. I'm being super literal here when I say 'you as the player' in terms of gameplay. The individual skirmishes ARE happening in a sort of real time, but you (again, as the IRL player outside of the game) don't technically have any say in how they end up. Do you get what I mean now?

2) Check the examples that Brightbow lists; there is plenty of avatar ass-kissing going on in Awakening. I guess this is just my opinion as well, but I'd say that Awakening is much more of a party for kissing the avatar's tushy-tush than is the case for Chrom. Chrom is just not terribly well-written.

As for the Lon'qu example you mention, I agree, I think that's actually one of the avatar's better supports, myself. ~3~ The difference between this game and Mass Effect though is that ME is much better written. ME definitely shows that what Awakening was trying to do with the avatar has potential, but IMO it wasn't well executed in Awakening.

3) Ehhh I think it's safe to say that plenty of victories are attributed to the avatar's strategies, personally...

4) Exactly! And I did something very similar in my first playthrough of my first FE game. But if you have a game where the difficulty is so toned down that the player never learns that lesson, IMO that's not good game design. Thankfully, I think the characters in Awakening are (mostly) good enough that players WANT to use them and raise them, so it's not as bad in Awakening as it could have been...

5) Wurd up, dawg

^{(godammit why am I not allowed to link images sigh)}

[RJWalker]

I find it hilarious that Marth makes a fresh recruit his personal royal guard.

Altea's military must be truly awful that new recruits can be elevated to this status that quickly. No wonder it got defeated so easily twice.

[IceBrand]

I find it hilarious that Marth makes a fresh recruit his personal royal guard.

Altea's military must be truly awful that new recruits can be elevated to this status that quickly. No wonder it got defeated so easily twice.

Maybe Marth secretly knows that Fresh recruits will turn out better than Jegian?

[BrightBow]

2) Check the examples that Brightbow lists; there is plenty of avatar ass-kissing going on in Awakening. I guess this is just my opinion as well, but I'd say that Awakening is much more of a party for kissing the avatar's tushy-tush than is the case for Chrom. Chrom is just not terribly well-written.

Just so that there is no confusion, I didn't actually write a list of examples for characters kissing the Avatar's butt. I was merely trying to debunk Shadow Knights assumption that the opposite happened and specific characters like Lissa and Frederick actually gave Robin a hard time.

Though I guess I still tried to cover that ground by bringing up the final chapter so I didn't have to go through the script of every single chapter this late at night.

Edited May 6, 2014 by BrightBow

[Shadow Knight]

Opinionated. This is an interesting discussion so far though.

About there supposedly even being the opposite of asskissing for Robin in the game.

First of all: Frederick never mistrusts Robin. He explains as much before the first battle even starts:

Frederick: I have every wish to trust you, stranger, but my station mandates otherwise.

Besides, once the battle starts the mistrust almost completely disappears. And the few times it does show up, it's specifically to give everyone else the opportunity to express how noble, skilled and trustworthy Robin is, all the while assuring us that Frederick doesn't actually mean it and is just cautious.

Frederick: Indeed. Perhaps you might even be capable of an explanation for how you came here?
Chrom: You fought to save Ylissean lives. My heart says that's enough.
Frederick: And your mind, milord? Will you not heed its counsel as well?
Chrom: Frederick, the Shepherds could use someone with Robin's talents. We've brigands and unruly neighbors, all looking to bloody our soil. Would you really have us lose such an able tactician? Besides, I believe his/her story, odd as it might be. (as a sidenote, the first chapter isn't even over and Chrom already makes Robin already out to be the factor that might just decide the outcome of this conflict. But back to the topic.)

Frederick: Forgive me, Your Grace, but I must speak. Robin claims to have lost his/her memory, but it is only that: a claim. We cannot rule out the possibility that he is a brigand himself/herself or even a Plegian spy.
Chrom: Frederick!
Emmeryn: Yet you allowed him/her into the castle, Chrom. Does this man/woman have your trust?
Chrom: Yes. He/She risked his/her life for our people. That's good enough for me.
Emmeryn: Well then, Robin... It seems you've earned Chrom's faith, and as such you have mine as well.

And it's not like Frederick is above praising her either.

Frederick: Might I advise patience, milord? Robin is a fine tactician, but we have been working him/her mercilessly. Even the best of us needs rest.

I guess those other guys dodging axes are just slackers. It's the guy who moves a cursor around the map who is the real employee of the month.

As for Lissa, she is obsessed with Robin from the get-go and keeps her lips glued tightly to Robin's rear until she pretty much disappears from the script.

Lissa: But holy wow, Robin! You were incredible! Swords, sorcery, AND tactics! Is there anything you can't do?

...

Lissa: But allow me to introduce Robin! He/She just joined the Shepherds. Chrom's made him/her our new tactician. You should see all the tricks he's/she's got up his/her sleeve!

Maribel's disrespect takes the form of telling Robin not to encourage Vaike. Otherwise she is just being Tsundere to Robin. In other words: She totally likes her.

Robin: Yes. I know you're not especially fond of me, but it's a relief just the same.
Maribelle: Oh, it's not a question of fondness. I am simply protective of Lissa. My treasure is very sensitive, and... Wait. Am I really justifying myself to a commoner? Gods... Yes, well, I do...apologize for being curt. And... And... And you have my thanks for your part in the rescue. There, I said it!

That leaves us with Lucina, who along with EVERYONE ELSE will just gladly risk the future so that Robin can live, despite knowing better then anyone else what Grima is capable of.

And it really is everyone else. Isn't that right Chrom?

Chrom: And the good you bring to the world will more than make up for it. You made the right choice, Robin. Everyone agrees.

And quite frankly, I don't get how anyone could not think that Robin is the most important person to literally everyone in the army after the final chapter. That one was really just embarrassing.

Those quotes of the other characters, they are not about comradely and friendship. There is no "we" in them. There is only Robin. They are just about how important Robin is to them and to remind her how amazing she is.

Even Kingdom Hearts handled that theme a lot better. As much as Sora is chilled, he would have died countless times ago without the help of his friends.

He needed his friends when he lost his Keyblade. It turned out he needed his friends after all when he abandoned them in Castle Oblivion. He needed them to protect him during his sleep. He needed them when he was stunned by Xemnas in KHII. He needed them when he got trapped in his dreams.

Robin just needs his friends to stroke his ego and then just frees herself from whatever the heck was even going on in that scene.

I consider Sora an awful Mary Sue but that only shows how bad Robin is by comparison.

About there supposedly even being the opposite of asskissing for Robin in the game.

First of all: Frederick never mistrusts Robin. He explains as much before the first battle even starts:

Frederick: I have every wish to trust you, stranger, but my station mandates otherwise.

The above quote contradicts your statement. He specifically says he can't trust him bc of his mandate. In other words he doesn't trust the Avatar. As well as the below statements:

Frederick
It's called a load of pegasus dung. We're to believe you remember milord's name, but not your own?

Frederick
Just the same, milord, I must emphasize caution. 'Twould not do to let a wolf into our flock.

Besides, once the battle starts the mistrust almost completely disappears. And the few times it does show up, it's specifically to give everyone else the opportunity to express how noble, skilled and trustworthy Robin is, all the while assuring us that Frederick doesn't actually mean it and is just cautious.

Frederick: Indeed. Perhaps you might even be capable of an explanation for how you came here?
Chrom: You fought to save Ylissean lives. My heart says that's enough.
Frederick: And your mind, milord? Will you not heed its counsel as well?
Chrom: Frederick, the Shepherds could use someone with Robin's talents. We've brigands and unruly neighbors, all looking to bloody our soil. Would you really have us lose such an able tactician? Besides, I believe his/her story, odd as it might be. (as a sidenote, the first chapter isn't even over and Chrom already makes Robin already out to be the factor that might just decide the outcome of this conflict. But back to the topic.)

Frederick: Forgive me, Your Grace, but I must speak. Robin claims to have lost his/her memory, but it is only that: a claim. We cannot rule out the possibility that he is a brigand himself/herself or even a Plegian spy.
Chrom: Frederick!
Emmeryn: Yet you allowed him/her into the castle, Chrom. Does this man/woman have your trust?
Chrom: Yes. He/She risked his/her life for our people. That's good enough for me.
Emmeryn: Well then, Robin... It seems you've earned Chrom's faith, and as such you have mine as well.

The above quotes actually speak to the opposite. After fighting with you Frederick urges Chrom not to trust you. In fact Emmeryn even lampshades this by saying that the reason Chrom

let you in in the first place is bc Chrom trusts you and Frederick no matter how he feels will always submit to Chrom

As for Chrom's dialogue: The other thing to consider is that this is a part of Chrom's character and this sort of trustworthiness is not specific to just the avatar. Chrom recruits anyone who he considers useful including Gaius, Nowi, and Gregor. A theif, mercenary, and firebreathing dragon specifically.

And it's not like Frederick is above praising her either.

Frederick: Might I advise patience, milord? Robin is a fine tactician, but we have been working him/her mercilessly. Even the best of us needs rest.

I guess those other guys dodging axes are just slackers. It's the guy who moves a cursor around the map who is the real employee of the month.

Used to introduce the mechanic of letting the AI control itself as well as reminding the player that they hav other teammates.

To build on this, Chrom actually implies that the Avatar is a terrible magic user in the first battle.

As for Lissa, she is obsessed with Robin from the get-go and keeps her lips glued tightly to Robin's rear until she pretty much disappears from the script.

Lissa: But holy wow, Robin! You were incredible! Swords, sorcery, AND tactics! Is there anything you can't do?

...

Lissa: But allow me to introduce Robin! He/She just joined the Shepherds. Chrom's made him/her our new tactician. You should see all the tricks he's/she's got up his/her sleeve!

Lissa
My hero! I don't have to worry about a thing with you around! La la laaaa...

Lon'qu
Don't be careless! Keep your eyes open! Death could lurk in any nook or... *Sigh* Surely there is someone less better suited to this task.

Lissa
J-just kidding, Lon'qu! Kidding! I'm sure Chrom was impressed by your skill and charm and good looks! I mean, out of everyone else here, he's trusting you to keep his little sis safe. That's a pretty huge honor, right? ...Riiiiight?

Lon'qu
...I suppose.

Lissa:
...Holy cow, Gaius! That's amazing!I didn't know you could sew!

Gaius:
I've always had nimble fingers.Useful skill in my trade.

Unfortunately this is Lissa's personality with everybody, not just the avatar. She gushes over whoever she is talking to at the time. Besides that isn't Ass-kissing that's earned praise. You just got through two battles where you proved that you could effectively handle both swords and tomes. (Despite Chrom expressing his doubt.) And right after she gushes about your skills Maribelle is right there to brush them aside.

Maribel's disrespect takes the form of telling Robin not to encourage Vaike. Otherwise she is just being Tsundere to Robin. In other words: She totally likes her.

Robin: Yes. I know you're not especially fond of me, but it's a relief just the same.
Maribelle: Oh, it's not a question of fondness. I am simply protective of Lissa. My treasure is very sensitive, and... Wait. Am I really justifying myself to a commoner? Gods... Yes, well, I do...apologize for being curt. And... And... And you have my thanks for your part in the rescue. There, I said it!

Sumia
Don't take it to heart, Robin. Maribelle warms to people slowly.

Lissa
Or burns too quickly! Hee hee! But yeah, just give her time.

Gods... Yes, well, I do...apologize for being curt. And... And... And you have my thanks for your part in the rescue. There, I said it!

• Maribelle: Can you fault me for being curious about an amnesiac with a genius for strategy? You've also earned quite a bit of trust from my dear friend Lissa. It's only natural that I'd want to learn more about the stranger in our midst. I suppose you might simply say that I hoped we could become...friends. Unless you object, of course.
• Avatar: No, I don't object, per se. But...weren't we already friends?
• Maribelle: Oh, I'm pleased to hear you say that, Avatar!

Maribelle doesn't like you at all. Even with the endorsement you get from Lissa she clearly despises the fact that you acted like a commoner. Even after you save her life with help of course she has to force out an apology. It isn't until her C support that she considers you a friend.

That leaves us with Lucina, who along with EVERYONE ELSE will just gladly risk the future so that Robin can live, despite knowing better then anyone else what Grima is capable of.

And it really is everyone else. Isn't that right Chrom?

Chrom: And the good you bring to the world will more than make up for it. You made the right choice, Robin. Everyone agrees.

While I agree that this is not the correct decision, it also is. Morally speaking if we want to be wide eye-ed idealists everyone should hav the opportunity decide their fate and blah blah blah given the knowledge at the time. However, this is not Ass-Kissing. A. Chrom has already been shown to be an in-effectual leader who doesn't always make the best decisions. B. by this point in the story you have bonded and fought with every single character in the main story. The fact that they would sacrifice the world for you is a question of feelings. How many times hav we seen ppl make terrible decisions and judgements based on feelings? C. This is terrible writing and never should hav been a choice in this game in the first place.

And quite frankly, I don't get how anyone could not think that Robin is the most important person to literally everyone in the army after the final chapter. That one was really just embarrassing.

They never say he is the most important, only that they agree with the Avatar's decision. Besides in previous Fire Emblem games the non-unit created protagonist had whole countries warring over him in order to become their own tactician.

Those quotes of the other characters, they are not about comradely and friendship. There is no "we" in them. There is only Robin. They are just about how important Robin is to them and to remind her how amazing she is.

To the contrary there are several uses of the word we and us in the above quotes. But also before every battle whoever is talking will address the army and its successes or possible challenges as a group effort. And in the end the Avatar is only able to fight back against Grima bc of how he feels about his friends. You can't say that a Fire Emblem game is based on exalting one character over the other. That's impossible bc each chapter is generally devoted to different characters with the Main ones simply along the ride until the end. Hell the Avatar himself is only required for Chapters 1,2, and 23.

Even Kingdom Hearts handled that theme a lot better. As much as Sora is chilled, he would have died countless times ago without the help of his friends.

He needed his friends when he lost his Keyblade. It turned out he needed his friends after all when he abandoned them in Castle Oblivion. He needed them to protect him during his sleep. He needed them when he was stunned by Xemnas in KHII. He needed them when he got trapped in his dreams.

Robin just needs his friends to stroke his ego and then just frees herself from whatever the heck was even going on in that scene.

I consider Sora an awful Mary Sue but that only shows how bad Robin is by comparison.

Never played Kingdom Hearts, thought it was too kiddy and it just wasn't my schtick. But without bonding and meeting all of these ppl the Avatar does not manage to break free of Grima's control. Besides the Avatar's actions are ultimately not necessary bc whoever wields falchion and the fire emblem can seal Grima away.

Erm I'm not sure why you quoted me twice. o___o Seems like unnecessary page stretching but w/e *shrug*

1) Back up for a second-- I'm not talking about the player character as he/she exists in the in-game universe, I'm literally referring to the extent of the human player's interaction with the game. You don't affect the results of combat in the least, you merely train your units and pit them against the odds that you know they'll win against. I'm being super literal here when I say 'you as the player' in terms of gameplay. The individual skirmishes ARE happening in a sort of real time, but you (again, as the IRL player outside of the game) don't technically have any say in how they end up. Do you get what I mean now?

2) Check the examples that Brightbow lists; there is plenty of avatar ass-kissing going on in Awakening. I guess this is just my opinion as well, but I'd say that Awakening is much more of a party for kissing the avatar's tushy-tush than is the case for Chrom. Chrom is just not terribly well-written.

As for the Lon'qu example you mention, I agree, I think that's actually one of the avatar's better supports, myself. ~3~ The difference between this game and Mass Effect though is that ME is much better written. ME definitely shows that what Awakening was trying to do with the avatar has potential, but IMO it wasn't well executed in Awakening.

3) Ehhh I think it's safe to say that plenty of victories are attributed to the avatar's strategies, personally...

4) Exactly! And I did something very similar in my first playthrough of my first FE game. But if you have a game where the difficulty is so toned down that the player never learns that lesson, IMO that's not good game design. Thankfully, I think the characters in Awakening are (mostly) good enough that players WANT to use them and raise them, so it's not as bad in Awakening as it could have been...

5) Wurd up, dawg

^{(godammit why am I not allowed to link images sigh)}

Erm I'm not sure why you quoted me twice. o___o Seems like unnecessary page stretching but w/e *shrug*

For Organization and clarification purposes. I'm still new to the forum so i'm still working out all of the features.

1) Back up for a second-- I'm not talking about the player character as he/she exists in the in-game universe, I'm literally referring to the extent of the human player's interaction with the game. You don't affect the results of combat in the least, you merely train your units and pit them against the odds that you know they'll win against. I'm being super literal here when I say 'you as the player' in terms of gameplay. The individual skirmishes ARE happening in a sort of real time, but you (again, as the IRL player outside of the game) don't technically have any say in how they end up. Do you get what I mean now?

Of course and I can see why you think that way. However, if you are training your troops and positioning them (for example placing Archers to intercept Wyverns and Pegasus Knights) isn't that still the same as directly influencing the conflict? Part of it is left to chance but you control the exact modifiers. For example, equipping Marth with a Wyrmsword instead of a rapier results in more damage against Wyvern riders and a higher chance of victory based also on the amount of training that you have given him. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I view it more personally.

2) Check the examples that Brightbow lists; there is plenty of avatar ass-kissing going on in Awakening. I guess this is just my opinion as well, but I'd say that Awakening is much more of a party for kissing the avatar's tushy-tush than is the case for Chrom. Chrom is just not terribly well-written.

He certainly made a compelling argument but I hav to disagree with some of it based on what I pointed out above. Imo Chrom is not a great character in that he doesn't hav anything really compelling. He's a simple idealist who happens to wield an exalted sword. Standard Shonen hero to a letter.

As for the Lon'qu example you mention, I agree, I think that's actually one of the avatar's better supports, myself. ~3~ The difference between this game and Mass Effect though is that ME is much better written. ME definitely shows that what Awakening was trying to do with the avatar has potential, but IMO it wasn't well executed in Awakening.

Just a couple other supports to which I think were well done. Heck the avatar even loses a strategy game to Virloin but yeah the execution could hav been a lot better. I think that in Mass effect what helps is that you can choose your background and past. For example, the reason fans accepted all the Asskissing in ME for Shepard's spectre review was bc he was already a war hero. It makes praise more acceptable.

• Avatar: Not much, I'm afraid. Perhaps you'd teach me some basic traps sometime?
• Donnel: Darn tootin' I will! We can start with a box trap. Ain't nothin' to it.
• Avatar: Sure, sounds great!
• Avatar: Hold! I need to retract my last move.
• Virion: Ha ha! Were that all enemy generals so generous! But alas, this is war. ...Checkmate, my good sir.
• Avatar: ...Blast! I hate to admit it, but I am well and truly beaten.
• Virion: Oh ho! I told you I was both a lion and a swan, did I not?
• Avatar: More like a chicken and the far end of a horse! I'm no noble lord, but your strategy wasn't exactly what I'd call honorable.
• Virion: Heavens! Aren't we plainspoken.
• Avatar: Still, I appreciate the practice. Thank you, Virion.
• Virion: If you wish me to unleash my dishonorable strategies again, you have but to ask.

4) Exactly! And I did something very similar in my first playthrough of my first FE game. But if you have a game where the difficulty is so toned down that the player never learns that lesson, IMO that's not good game design. Thankfully, I think the characters in Awakening are (mostly) good enough that players WANT to use them and raise them, so it's not as bad in Awakening as it could have been...

True. Eventually ppl move up to the higher difficulties and that's when they learn but Fire Emblem is good in another aspect as well. Anti-grinding. Weapon use limits and gold limits put a freeze on how many times you can spot pass train which makes it harder to solo through. Plus I also agree, there are too many good characters to go through the game without using them

5) Wurd up, dawg

^{(godammit why am I not allowed to link images sigh)}

Lol, try uploading them to photobucket and then copying the link that's what I did

[BANRYU]

God Jesus man find a way to shorten your posts if you don't mind terribly @o@

It's fine if you need to organize your thoughts and stuff, but like delete the quote or something then... cripes...

By the way, there's nothing wrong with being opinionated as long as we're being respectful of each other's opinions (as I feel we're doing).

Regarding Chrom... Ehh, I think there is SOME stuff that sets Chrom apart from the standard lord fare, (like what a dork he can be, and even his occasional quips during DLC missions that undermine the would-be seriousness of the moment) but I'm not crazy about him as a character either (I like Lucina better personally).

And about Mass Effect, I don't know if the 'war hero' thing even really matters. As long as the writing is good, you can have a character who starts from nothing and grows to be respected, y'know? That's what I think anyway

Edited May 7, 2014 by BANRYU

[RJWalker]

Yeah, but 'wake up with amnesia' is so cliche that most games that use it are parodying it but Awakening plays it straight.

[Shadow Knight]

God Jesus man find a way to shorten your posts if you don't mind terribly @o@

It's fine if you need to organize your thoughts and stuff, but like delete the quote or something then... cripes...

Lol I'll try. no promises though

Regarding Chrom... Ehh, I think there is SOME stuff that sets Chrom apart from the standard lord fare, (like what a dork he can be, and even his occasional quips during DLC missions that undermine the would-be seriousness of the moment) but I'm not crazy about him as a character either (I like Lucina better personally).

I haven't really gotten past chapter 11 yet bc I started over so I could optimize my character and my squad but so far to me anyway Chroms pretty standard. The only supports I've done with him are myself and him as well as sumia and chrom and Lissa and chrom. That pretty much only hints at his idealism, his caring nature as an older brother/Moe protector, and that he really loves meat in his pie. Definitely haven't fully explored his supports or character though he did come off as selfish in his C support with Gaius. Lucina definitely seems interesting especially since I am always biased towards Laura Bailey.

And about Mass Effect, I don't know if the 'war hero' thing even really matters. As long as the writing is good, you can have a character who starts from nothing and grows to be respected, y'know? That's what I think anyway

I agree but the thing about commander shepherd is that he is already considered a great soldier when you take over. For example he is an N7 elite and is up for spectre status which is considered the highest military position a soldier can reach. At least in Awakening they don't brag about your skills until after you actually fight, compared to Mass Effect where you just start out as a bad-ass. FE12 was terrible with this bc it even had ranking conversation where it would rank certain stats that players had. If their stats were in a certain range than you would get complemented by Jagen. The problem I hav though with the Ass-kissing complaints is that while you are lauded for your achievements most of the time this is actually well earned. Even in FE12 you start out as an unknown and by the time you are appointed to knighthood not only have you beaten the previous generation of knights but have protected Marth personally from an assassination. Royal knight might be a little much but you still hav quite a number of achievements under your belt.

But I think it boils down to what you said before, better writing means that fans are a lot more willing to accept things like that.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Shadow Knight