Why do you need galeforce to *lead*?

[Alastor15243]

It seems to be the general opinion that you need galeforce to be able to be the lead unit, and those that don't have it should be relegated to support. I'd like to know the reasoning behind that, because the way I see it it seems like that's backwards.

From where I'm standing, it seems to be far more sensible to say that units with galeforce should be in the *back*, so they can build themselves entirely around singular player-phase assaults (aggressor, lifetaker, brave weapons that normally would make you incapable of countering ranged attacks, prioritizing damage over defense), get in a single, devastating round of combat, and then galeforce and lifetaker kick in, allowing you to switch back to the lead unit, who would be built around surviving the enemy phase. A unit pair that has galeforce in the back instead of the front can still perform two rounds of battle, just with different units.

So where's the flaw in my logic? I'm really curious.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Alastor15243

[Comet]

galeforce doesn't work if the back unit has it, and having the ability to kill something and get out of harm's way with fe13's broken movement is amazing

just read that a second time, movement is the main reason

Edited April 23, 2014 by Comet

[Duke of Dozel]

Galeforce gives units the ability to use different tactics, like hit-and-run, or engage in multiple enemies at once for faster map completion. That alone makes it one of the better skills, if not one of the best. It's the main reason why F!MU is regarded as the better avatar.

[Icon of Sin]

You could always have a Galeforce user pair up a unit with Deliverer, then switch when you're about to target an enemy, kill it, then Galeforce activates and you can target another enemy.

Two Galeforce users can have three turns in one too, and that's not forgetting movement cries and Deliverer.

It's a fun mechanic if you want to clear the maps fast. It's not like this game has any kind of strictly defensive maps.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Woodshooter

[Alastor15243]

Galeforce gives units the ability to use different tactics, like hit-and-run, or engage in multiple enemies at once for faster map completion. That alone makes it one of the better skills, if not one of the best. It's the main reason why F!MU is regarded as the better avatar.

At no point in my post did I doubt the power of galeforce. Please read my post again.

[Duke of Dozel]

It seems to be the general opinion that you need galeforce to be able to be the lead unit, and those that don't have it should be relegated to support. I'd like to know the reasoning behind that, because the way I see it it seems like that's backwards.

Yeah I did read it. I'm trying to prove you wrong with facts, and a side of my opinion, about why people regard Galeforce as a skill front units should get.

[Alastor15243]

Yeah I did read it. I'm trying to prove you wrong with facts, and a side of my opinion, about why people regard Galeforce as a skill front units should get.

No. Read the whole thing. I'm not saying galeforce isn't useful, I'm questioning why the FRONT unit has to get it when it seems to work equally well using switching tactics and having it on a specially-built back unit.

[Duke of Dozel]

If that's what you want, Woodshooter pretty much summed it up.

[MelonGx]

1) Your topic is actually mentioning the 2nd Galeforce on Double-Gale, isn't it?

2) You never activated your backward unit's Galeforce if your forward's Galeforce wasn't activated first, or if your forward unit didn't have a Galeforce.

Edited April 24, 2014 by MelonGx

[Alastor15243]

1) Your topic is actually mentioning the 2nd Galeforce on Double-Gale, isn't it?

2) You never activated your backward unit's Galeforce WITHOUT your forward's Galeforce activated first.

...Sorry, I don't understand. That second one sounds like you're saying it's impossible to activate a back unit's galeforce without the front unit's galeforce being activated first, and I'm assuming that's not what you're saying, because that's not true. All you have to do is move with the front unit, switch in front of a unit, then attack with the back unit, then you can move again as the back unit and switch back to the front to attack again.

[MelonGx]

...Sorry, I don't understand. That second one sounds like you're saying it's impossible to activate a back unit's galeforce without the front unit's galeforce being activated first, and I'm assuming that's not what you're saying, because that's not true. All you have to do is move with the front unit, switch in front of a unit, then attack with the back unit, then you can move again as the back unit and switch back to the front to attack again.

OK I got your idea.

You're meaning

Non-Gale/Gale on default -> moving -> switching to Gale/Non-Gale then do their 1st attack

right?

But isn't it the same as

Gale/Non-Gale on default -> moving -> doing their 1st attack without switching?

Your idea is only worth on Non-Gale's movement > Gale's movement in actual battle.

Edited April 24, 2014 by MelonGx

[Alastor15243]

OK I got your idea.

You're meaning

Non-Gale/Gale on default -> moving -> switching to Gale/Non-Gale then do their 1st attack

right?

But isn't it the same as

Gale/Non-Gale on default -> moving -> doing their 1st attack without switching?

Your idea is only worth on Non-Gale's movement > Gale's movement in actual battle.

The difference is that, as I outlined in the OP, with galeforce in back you can build the back unit around ensuring a kill, defense be damned, because that unit's not going to be taking any damage on the enemy's turn. Since they're never going to be attacked, you can go all-out on skills, equipment and classes that will be useful for a unit that only attacks and is never countered, like Aggressor, lifetaker, brave weapons, classes with high power/speed but low defense, etc.

[MelonGx]

The difference is that, as I outlined in the OP, with galeforce in back you can build the back unit around ensuring a kill, defense be damned, because that unit's not going to be taking any damage on the enemy's turn. Since they're never going to be attacked, you can go all-out on skills, equipment and classes that will be useful for a unit that only attacks and is never countered, like Aggressor, lifetaker, brave weapons, classes with high power/speed but low defense, etc.

All units in Apotheosis are all-out. Not only Galeforces, but Celica VV Tanks.

If you can't make your default leading unit all-out, that's a problem of your leading unit's building.

[Raftina]

A +n modifier to damage (positive or negative n) affects the support unit more than active unit, because the support unit gets to strike almost twice as often as the active unit, thanks to braves and Celica's. This means you want your utility skills such as GF/LT/DS+ to be on the active unit as much as possible.

In enemy phase, you lose Aggressor. This means +n damage skills (-Faire, +2 AS, +2 attack stat) are more likely to be necessary for enemy phase combat than player phase combat.

If you're committing to enemy phase combat, then you do not want your support unit to have a bunch of slots filled with utility or player phase only skills (GF/LT/Agg), because they don't help you when you need it more.

But as Woodshooter pointed out, Deliverer (or other reasons why the non-Galeforce unit has better movement) is one reason you might want to have your non-Galeforce unit lead when you end player phase.

[Czar_Yoshi]

So where's the flaw in my logic? I'm really curious.

Several things wrong here:

Supporting units bypass Pavgis+, Counter, and strike twice as much as lead units, therefore their offense is of a higher priority to boost than that of the lead unit (you can still KO without strong DSes, you'll just be a little more at the mercy of the RNG). Thus, if you put all your assets into boosting the non-GF unit's offense, they won't be able to take a hit any better than the lead (who's also decked out for doing damage)- look at those Berserker/Sage defenses. Now, you could choose to build the other unit defensively, but then you can't have the lead unit hit like the truck you're calling for.

Second, defending on Secret Apo is useless. Either you survive EP with Vantage and enough offense to crush anything before it can touch you, or you bail with Rescue/GF and don't get attacked. If you -do- get attacked, you won't be able to take much Luna+ and Hawkeye before you have to retreat- the Nightmare Sniper is in fact untankable, and the only ways to survive a round of combat with him when he can attack with no chance of death are 100% Aegis and 244+ Avo.

Now, on double Gale pairs, it can be useful to keep one unit at very low HP for Vengeance and have them hide behind the other everywhere else. This could be done as well with only one GF, if you wanted to build your other unit with procs and stuff with the intent of getting them out of the way during EP with Rescue, but it's impractical because procs don't work from the back. Basically, the front unit should always be decked out with procs and the back unit with atk boosters, switching them around causes a much lower damage output. It's worth doing that on double Gale pairs because you get an extra kill, but on a single gale pair it's better to have the units dedicated to their roles. That way, instead of killing with the GF unit, switching to the back unit and getting another kill before fleeing, you can just get two kills with the front unit before fleeing.

The one time it does make sense to have GF on the support unit is with Lucina x a VV tank, because the tank is built for EP, but Lucina can still be used to gale down a threat you wouldn't want to face on EP (for example, a Counter Warrior on wave 1).

[Alastor15243]

Wait a second... support units strike twice as much as...

Oh god no. They didn't.

They TOTALLY didn't make it so that two units with brave weapons can strike 12 times in combat.

That... that sounds so unfathomably gamebreaking and stupid, it can't have been intentional. WOW.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Alastor15243

[PuffPuff]

galeforce doesn't work if the back unit has it, and having the ability to kill something and get out of harm's way with fe13's broken movement is amazing

just read that a second time, movement is the main reason

Of course.

Why else would Nintendo restrict you into using the Boots only one time?

Edited April 24, 2014 by Dark_Huntress

[Czar_Yoshi]

Wait a second... support units strike twice as much as...

Oh god no. They didn't.

They TOTALLY didn't make it so that two units with brave weapons can strike 12 times in combat.

That... that sounds so unfathomably gamebreaking and stupid, it can't have been intentional. WOW.

Not 12 times, 6 times (you want to kill everything before it gets a change to attack, especially with VV because you're at 1HP). The maximum number of attacks in a round of combat is actually 28 (Astra) though Aether's 16 is more potent (neither of those can be done with 100% reliability though).

But your ally's attacks pierce PavGis so if your foe has that then it essentially doubles their attack rate again.