Pornography. Shameful Pleasure, or Perfectly Natural?

[Magical CC]

While I think he was talking about het porn, which I assume is the majority share out there, I actually have heard the opinion expressed that gay porn (directed towards both sexes, but particularly male) often apes the abusive power/gender dynamic in gonzo porn (or at least one like it), and tends to make the bottom (and supposedly there is a bottom the majority of the time) out to be the more "feminine" both in their mannerisms and in how they're referred to.

Nah, it's wrong. In one of the few gay porns I have been tricked into watching by my friends. Both guys act "feminine". They both give the other tender kiss and such. It's even more "feminine" than les porn if you ask me. Yeah, it's weird to see two muscular guys acting like 2 little girls but it's the truth. Well, even in gay porn, there are different kind of genres. Something like uke&seme or "abuse" is not out of question either. All I want to say is porn world is huge.

Oh, there is this one time when I watched a futanari porn by accident....

[intergalacticoh]

Honestly, just do it in the privacy of your bedroom/dorm room/shower/whatever. Everybody has the urge, so don't be ashamed about it. What's shameful is the Kony 2012 guy getting arrested for public masturbation.

Porn - it's just one way people get aroused. I voted neither because it's technology but, hey, technology is everywhere. Nothing unusual.

Edited April 28, 2014 by intergalacticoh

[Dark Sage]

The most interesting porn is the porno spoof. Sure, you can watch actually sexy porn that you want to jerk off to, but if satisfying your curiosity is more important than arousal and worth the cost of seeing some horrible imagery, there's Beaver and Buttface, The Geek (Big Foot porn), E.T The Porno, Los Tortugas Mutantes Pinjas, and Yentl.

I'd never want anyone to watch Porno Holocaust though. That's should only be used to torture terrorists under interrogation

Edited April 29, 2014 by Black Frost

[Ciarre]

I think it's perfectly natural. I don't really watch it but if you asked me to watch something I probably would. It's more of I have better things to do with my time than watch porn, but I don't really mind watching it I guess.

[Dwalin2010]

Pornography is BORING. I never understood how people could get sexually excited by watching it. I can be excited by a beautiful woman, but if I see her publicly undress and have sex while others are watching, I would be completely disappointed by her personality and would consider the scene as something no more exciting than 2 dogs mating. Public sex is completely unaesthetic, the sight of it kills sexual desire in my opinion.

[MercyWalk]

Pornography is BORING. I never understood how people could get sexually excited by watching it. I can be excited by a beautiful woman, but if I see her publicly undress and have sex while others are watching, I would be completely disappointed by her personality and would consider the scene as something no more exciting than 2 dogs mating. Public sex is completely unaesthetic, the sight of it kills sexual desire in my opinion.

It seems like imagining yourself as one of the people having sex is way too next level for you

[Dwalin2010]

It seems like imagining yourself as one of the people having sex is way too next level for you

Not in public for sure. Only behind closed doors.

[Magical CC]

but if I see her publicly undress and have sex while others are watching, I would be completely disappointed by her personality

What the...? I cant even...!

[Dwalin2010]

What the...? I cant even...!

Well, you can. There are different points of view in this world, you know, even those you can't understand.

[Magical CC]

Well, you can. There are different points of view in this world, you know, even those you can't understand.

If there are any disappointment when I see a woman undress, it's because her naked body is actually worse than I think it could be. Yep, there are so many different points of view in this world.

[Phoenix Wright]

Not in public for sure. Only behind closed doors.

most pornography isn't filmed in public.

[BANRYU]

Sexual urges and the like are perfectly natural and normal and people shouldn't be ashamed for having them. Masturbation isn't something that's wrong or that people should be stigmatized for doing, because hell, you gotta address those urges somehow; sex isn't always an option.

However I do see porn as like a morally foul thing, though. It's basically prostitution that you're filming to make money by objectifying the female form (or male if you're into gay porn). I guess in a sense it's harmless, since most porn stars are more or less willing and consenting and they make a living off of it too, and it's probably something that would and will never go away, like ever. I guess it's an instance of one of those unpleasant but necessary things like vultures and dung beetles and whatnot.

As you can probably tell, I don't find it appealing in the least lol. Porn stars are gross people.

Edited May 5, 2014 by BANRYU

[Rehab]

Maybe porn stars are relatively likely to be totally consenting, but I've heard accounts of supposedly dozens, at the least, of porn actors (mostly actresses, it probably bears mentioning) who were treated so horribly that the distinction between what they experienced and rape became mostly academic. [spoiler=a gross situational example](for example, being naked in a room full of naked guys while being pressured by all of them and the producer to do a group hardcore scene one didn't agree to might not always not be conducive to ethically sound decision-making)

And of shit like actors (actresses) who were homeless and had nowhere to go being recruited, and paid handsomely enough, but simultaneously getting pressured by their recruiters into getting hooked on hard drugs. So the person paying them was also their dealer, and a) they still had to pay for the drugs, and b) they didn't have a lot of places to lodge a complaint if their, uh, "work practices" were abusive in that sort of environment.

Some examples here (a note, though: if this isn't fit for the words "trigger warning," then nothing is)

[BANRYU]

I don't pretend to know the specifics of what goes on in the porn industry.

BUT that certainly gives me a reason to want it to exist even less. That's horrible, it's practically comparable to human trafficking.

Knowing that, I'm much more liable to take a more aggressive stance against it.

Edited May 6, 2014 by BANRYU

[Esau of Isaac]

Aggressive stance against what? Porn? Or the people doing sick shit that happen to also be doing porn?

[BANRYU]

I should clarify: I'm not actually liable to do anything about it because I'm a lazy asshole.

Basically, I just mean I'm gonna be less verbally-tolerant of it because of the horrible filthy practices that are bound to be a big part of the industry. I'm too poor and busy to actually do anything to change it, though, so I guess that's basically meaningless, though.

Edited May 7, 2014 by BANRYU

[Phoenix Wright]

you speak so strongly for something you don't really know much about, though. i find it odd.

you say it's basically prostitution, which is true, but is this inherently a bad thing? i don't think so. additionally, you state that it's an objectification of the female form--or male for homosexual tastes? what the fuck does that mean? why isn't the male form objectified in heterosexual pornography--why not the female form in homosexual? you have clear-cut, black-and-white divides that have little validity in the first place.

there's plenty of porn out there where the man is subject to the whims of the woman. porn where the man is "tender" towards the woman. of course, there's also pornography for all those fetishes out there. it's more complex than you make it out to be.

bad people make a portion of pornography distasteful and disgusting. that doesn't make the entirety of porn disgraceful.

[Esau of Isaac]

I should clarify: I'm not actually liable to do anything about it because I'm a lazy asshole.

Basically, I just mean I'm gonna be less verbally-tolerant of it because of the horrible filthy practices that are bound to be a big part of the industry. I'm too poor and busy to actually do anything to change it, though, so I guess that's basically meaningless, though.

I mean, unless you consider the sex that the people are doing in the porn to be itself filthy, then most of the porn that people see is decidedly unrelated to any of the horrible practices that were described above. When you hear about thousands of people dying in car crashes yearly do you think deaths are something that are a big part of driving? Because for most, they aren't.

[BANRYU]

you speak so strongly for something you don't really know much about, though. i find it odd.

I know enough to know that it's bad. But apparently that's not enough to have a strong conviction about it.

you say it's basically prostitution, which is true, but is this inherently a bad thing? i don't think so. additionally, you state that it's an objectification of the female form--or male for homosexual tastes? what the fuck does that mean? why isn't the male form objectified in heterosexual pornography--why not the female form in homosexual? you have clear-cut, black-and-white divides that have little validity in the first place.

I'm sorry, can we go back and examine this bolded thing for a second? Why would you EVER think that prostitution would be okay? My poorly-stated points aside, seriously... what the fuck, man.

Also no, no I would say that the male form is not as objectified in heterosexual pornography as the female is. Who's the target of heterosexual porn? Do you really think the population of hetero women jacking off to porn is even coming CLOSE to that of men? I may not know that much about it, but I have enough common sense to know that males are the chief target of practically every kind of porn by the nature of male sexuality. Obviously women have physical needs and men have emotional needs and it varies depending on the individual and all that, but strictly and VERY broadly psychologically speaking: men = physical and women = emotional when it comes to sexual needs. Ergo, porn (a media whose core subject is the physical act) is made for men.

there's plenty of porn out there where the man is subject to the whims of the woman. porn where the man is "tender" towards the woman. of course, there's also pornography for all those fetishes out there. it's more complex than you make it out to be.

bad people make a portion of pornography distasteful and disgusting. that doesn't make the entirety of porn disgraceful.

I can't contest this seeing as I don't partake of the subject in question, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that it's all basically intended to cater to differing variations and tastes of the male gaze. It's still targeting men, and there's no guarantee that it's not still abusive behind the scenes (just as there's no guarantee that it is *shrug*).

I won't pretend to know what's going on behind the scenes of ALL the porn production studios in the US, much less anywhere else, but sure, I suppose it's perfectly possible that there are much more women-friendly and equal-opportunity porn studios. Evidence (such as that posted by Rehab) seems to suggest otherwise, though.

I mean, unless you consider the sex that the people are doing in the porn to be itself filthy, then most of the porn that people see is decidedly unrelated to any of the horrible practices that were described above. When you hear about thousands of people dying in car crashes yearly do you think deaths are something that are a big part of driving? Because for most, they aren't.

Actually, I kind of do associate death with driving. I'm paranoid like that. But let's call me an exception to the majority and agree for the sake of argument.

This is probably gonna be where my overly idealistic side shows its ugly (or sickeningly pretty?) face, because I actually consider sex to be a beautiful and sacred act. I don't think it should be shared with anyone other than the person(s) sharing it, unless of course they WANT to and hey, that's perfectly within their rights. But I'm at least not naive enough to think that there won't always be people corrupting it to whatever end-- I KNOW there will be.

In any case, I don't think you can really say for sure that most porn that people see is unrelated to such horrible practices as previously mentioned-- as I said, this topic is NOT my area of expertise by any stretch, but I do know that the pool of subject material is as vast and diverse as it is gross and festering (to my eye, anyway). I'd be willing to guess that more of it is harmful to its models/actresses/even actors than anyone outside that miserable world can realistically guess.

Edited May 7, 2014 by BANRYU

[The Geek]

BBM recommended a Japanese adult visual novel to me once (Fate/Stay Night). I can safely say that after playing it, I've never been the same again.

Ah yes. The beauty that is Nasu's... *ahem* well crafted erotic fiction.

Seriously, I love F/SN, but the way that the sex is hammered in is BAAAAD.

As for the topic on hand, I will partake on occasion and I see nothing wrong with it.

[Esau of Isaac]

I'm sorry, can we go back and examine this bolded thing for a second? Why would you EVER think that prostitution would be okay? My poorly-stated points aside, seriously... what the fuck, man.

What do you mean "what the fuck"? Not everyone views sex as ridiculously sacred as you do. What is wrong with making a buck for pleasing others? I work retail and have to work hours a day gratifying and assisting customers too. If a woman wants to make money having sex then what's your deal? Do you think people are not capable to think for themselves or something?

Also no, no I would say that the male form is not as objectified in heterosexual pornography as the female is. Who's the target of heterosexual porn? Do you really think the population of hetero women jacking off to porn is even coming CLOSE to that of men? I may not know that much about it, but I have enough common sense to know that males are the chief target of practically every kind of porn by the nature of male sexuality. Obviously women have physical needs and men have emotional needs and it varies depending on the individual and all that, but strictly and VERY broadly psychologically speaking: men = physical and women = emotional when it comes to sexual needs. Ergo, porn (a media whose core subject is the physical act) is made for men.

This is complete and total speculation on your part. One hundred percent opinionated. And given that it comes from someone who admittedly has no real knowledge of porn...

I can't contest this seeing as I don't partake of the subject in question, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that it's all basically intended to cater to differing variations and tastes of the male gaze.

"I don't watch porn so I have no clue what I'm talking about, but I'm going to say you're wrong because what you're saying disagrees with what I said even though the evidence you presented directly disagrees with the premise of my argument."

I won't pretend to know what's going on behind the scenes of ALL the porn production studios in the US, much less anywhere else, but sure, I suppose it's perfectly possible that there are much more women-friendly and equal-opportunity porn studios. Evidence (such as that posted by Rehab) seems to suggest otherwise, though.

Evidence seems to suggest otherwise in some cases. Why in the world are you so quick to jump to conclusions? Is that all it takes to confirm your biases? There are millions of women portrayed in pornography. If anything the evidence points to the need for regulation and representation like other conventional actors and actresses receive, rather than treating the lot of them like their profession is immoral and dirty.

This is probably gonna be where my overly idealistic side shows its ugly (or sickeningly pretty?) face, because I actually consider sex to be a beautiful and sacred act. I don't think it should be shared with anyone other than the person(s) sharing it, unless of course they WANT to and hey, that's perfectly within their rights. But I'm at least not naive enough to think that there won't always be people corrupting it to whatever end-- I KNOW there will be.

The point is, though, that you're not giving the vibe of someone who thinks it's being corrupted, but that it's naturally corrupt and that's why these things happen. That's just not true, and your views on the entirety of pornography seem pretty tenuous to say the least.

In any case, I don't think you can really say for sure that most porn that people see is unrelated to such horrible practices as previously mentioned-- as I said, this topic is NOT my area of expertise by any stretch, but I do know that the pool of subject material is as vast and diverse as it is gross and festering (to my eye, anyway). I'd be willing to guess that more of it is harmful to its models/actresses/even actors than anyone outside that miserable world can realistically guess.

More of which porn? All of it? you're telling me every single video of some chick getting rammed more than likely involved her coming to harm or being subject to inhumane treatment? What?

Like do you think porn is a series on television? You might as well claim all books involve brutal murder. It's such a general statement that I'm kind of baffled.

[BANRYU]

What do you mean "what the fuck"? Not everyone views sex as ridiculously sacred as you do. What is wrong with making a buck for pleasing others? I work retail and have to work hours a day gratifying and assisting customers too. If a woman wants to make money having sex then what's your deal? Do you think people are not capable to think for themselves or something?

Just forget that shit I said about sex being sacred for a second, that has nothing to do with my outrage at him saying prostitution isn't a big deal. It IS a big deal, pretty much all forms of prostitution are inherently abusive and harmful to women, are they not? Do you honestly think that any woman, save a few radical nymphos, would choose any kind of prostitution, whether it be porn or escorting or whatever, as their ideal career? What you do for a living is not even CLOSE to the kind of job that prostitution is, whether you think sex is sacred or not. Frankly, the fact that you think that a normal woman might find it to be an acceptable, much less desirable career, makes ME feel well-informed on this subject-- and boy do I know better.

But fuck, if I'm wrong, show me the evidence of it; disprove away, I welcome it.

This is complete and total speculation on your part. One hundred percent opinionated. And given that it comes from someone who admittedly has no real knowledge of porn...

"I don't watch porn so I have no clue what I'm talking about, but I'm going to say you're wrong because what you're saying disagrees with what I said even though the evidence you presented directly disagrees with the premise of my argument."

Don't fuck with me, man. Just because I admitted I don't have much significant experience with the topic of porn, it doesn't mean anything I have to say on the matter is automatically invalid as a result.

I may not know porn, but I have a basic understanding of sexual psychology, motherfucker. I know how and why 'sex sells,' and how and why it works differently for men and women; that's not an opinion, it's unbiased, educated theorization that's supported by scientific case studies. Frankly, unless you can prove that what I'm saying is dead wrong-- that equal parts of the porn industry are directed at women, or whatever shit I'm apparently so goddamn ignorant of-- then you're just as full of crap as you say I am.

And no, Phoenix was NOT fucking presenting 'evidence' that contradicted anything I said. Just because there exists porn in which the women are in the dominant role or where men are tender and affectionate, it does NOT mean that the porn industry as a whole is not directed at men. The point is that there are men who are turned on by that, and the focus is still the sexual act itself, which is as I said, is primarily aimed at men. You want to fucking disprove me, how about you hand me some actual proof that addresses my so-called opinion instead of something almost completely tangential to it like his examples were?

Evidence seems to suggest otherwise in some cases. Why in the world are you so quick to jump to conclusions? Is that all it takes to confirm your biases? There are millions of women portrayed in pornography. If anything the evidence points to the need for regulation and representation like other conventional actors and actresses receive, rather than treating the lot of them like their profession is immoral and dirty.

I'll give you that. And that I consider the profession 'immoral and dirty' is 100% opinion, I hold no illusions about that at least.

If the industry DID have the kind of regulation and representation that you're talking about, maybe it'd be a better workplace for its women; but for the time being, I have no reason to assume that most porn stars/actresses that AREN'T well-known (hell, Rehab's link even had an example of one who WAS well-known) are in the industry because they were anything but forced by circumstance and by the manipulative people who run the business.

You provide me evidence of women who are happy in their roles as porn stars/actresses and I will concede you that point.

It's not going to change my opinion of these people, though. I respect and sympathize with those that want to get out, and that's about the extent of my positive feelings toward porn stars/actresses. But yeah, I know that's my opinion.

The point is, though, that you're not giving the vibe of someone who thinks it's being corrupted, but that it's naturally corrupt and that's why these things happen. That's just not true, and your views on the entirety of pornography seem pretty tenuous to say the least.

To be honest I do think it's naturally corrupt, I think it has everything to do with the corrupt side of humanity. However, I won't refute that I basically don't know what I'm talking about as far as the porn industry is concerned and mine is an opinion largely founded on ideals. You've got me there.

I guess putting my opinion in a more neutral light would be me saying that I don't MIND people enjoying pornography if that's what they want to do SO LONG AS the people being portrayed in the pornography aren't being hurt by making it (whether 'hurt' means their body or their future). And let's be honest, is 'adult film actress' really the kind of mark a woman wants on her resume when she's trying to start her own business or whatever? I just find it hard to imagine a situation where porn actresses are benefitting from the industry they work in, because at present, I have no reason to believe they're getting any sort of long-term boon from it.

But again, if you can find instances that disprove this, even for specific people or situations, by all means, refute me. If it's not hurting people, well then, live and let live; even if I don't care for porn I'm perfectly happy to let it exist. (That's why I don't give a shit about hentai; I think it's gross, but it's not hurting anyone, so I'm fine with it and people who enjoy it.) But if lives are actually indeed being ruined by this industry-- as I have every reason to believe they are-- then you better fucking believe I'll keep talking about it like this, however 'tenuous' my experiences with porn media are.

More of which porn? All of it? you're telling me every single video of some chick getting rammed more than likely involved her coming to harm or being subject to inhumane treatment? What?

Like do you think porn is a series on television? You might as well claim all books involve brutal murder. It's such a general statement that I'm kind of baffled.

Behhh. My shitty wording skills strike again.

I guess I basically mean what I was talking about above, where I'm concerned about the lives of the people involved in the industry. I mean, if a woman (or a man) wants to have their short run of porn fame, enjoy getting rammed (or ramming), enjoy the attention, then get tossed aside around 30 or so (or whenever the fuck the age is where you're considered too old to look good on the screen), I guess that's fine by me. Thing is, based on reading some of the things that Rehab linked, I get the impression that most young women who start in the porn industry don't know what the fuck they're getting themselves into in the long-term. That's what I mean when I say it's 'harmful'.

Maybe I should post an example or something because it's three in the fucking morning, I'm tired and irate, and I'm pretty sure I'm still not being any more clear than I was in my last tl;dr wall-o-text response.

Edited May 7, 2014 by BANRYU

[Cowboy Karimov]

Being sexually aroused is a natural human response. So I changed my vote. That and I'm not some born-again zealot idiot.

[BANRYU]

Being sexually aroused is a natural human response. So I changed my vote. That and I'm not some born-again zealot idiot.

Is that just a sweeping generalization or are you referring to anybody in particular?

...If you're calling someone a 'born-again zealot idiot' you may as well do it to his face, so to speak.

[Wist]

Frankly, unless you can prove that what I'm saying is dead wrong-- that equal parts of the porn industry are directed at women, or whatever shit I'm apparently so goddamn ignorant of-- then you're just as full of crap as you say I am.

You want to fucking disprove me, how about you hand me some actual proof that addresses my so-called opinion instead of something almost completely tangential to it like his examples were?

You provide me evidence of women who are happy in their roles as porn stars/actresses and I will concede you that point.

But again, if you can find instances that disprove this, even for specific people or situations, by all means, refute me.

You keep demanding evidence for any rebuttals, yet you consistently dismiss the need to present supporting evidence for your own position.

Do you honestly think that any woman, save a few radical nymphos, would choose any kind of prostitution, whether it be porn or escorting or whatever, as their ideal career?

But for the time being, I have no reason to assume that most porn stars/actresses that AREN'T well-known [...] are in the industry because they were anything but forced by circumstance and by the manipulative people who run the business.

And let's be honest, is 'adult film actress' really the kind of mark a woman wants on her resume when she's trying to start her own business or whatever? I just find it hard to imagine a situation where porn actresses are benefitting [sic] from the industry they work in, because at present, I have no reason to believe they're getting any sort of long-term boon from it.

But if lives are actually indeed being ruined by this industry-- as I have every reason to believe they are-- then you better fucking believe I'll keep talking about it like this, however 'tenuous' my experiences with porn media are.

But sweeping statements like these are purely ideological. You preface your arguments with these assumptions, but they're not safe assumptions. They may be correct, they may not be. Until you give them weight they're empty statements. You can't make such blanket claims for a topic this complex and treat them all as given. Until you substantiate these assumptions, dredging up evidence in reflexive arguments is pointless; the burden of proof lies on you.

By way of example, you can't arbitrarily cite Esau for mother-son incest and treat it as fact until he provides evidence to the contrary. That's not fair on Esau.

- - -

In response to your arguments about the exploitation of porn actresses:

You claim porn actresses are harmed because many don't realize going into it their career prospects will be curtailed by virtue of their occupation. You also mentioned some women are forced into it. On this latter point, if for the sake of argument we assume these two claims are true, am I correct in assuming you mean personal circumstance makes entering the porn industry their best financial option even though it may lead to other situational harms?

If so, I'd argue one of your issues with the industry is an argument it exploits social inequality, a position I think fits within broader discussion on whether the feudal class systems that linger in modern capitalism 'force' people into unskilled jobs with no room for advancement, and if this is a systemic flaw. But I don't want to pursue the point if I misunderstand what you mean. This is of course on a separate train of thought to the discussion of women being harmed "behind the scenes".

Edit: Edited for clarity.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Wist