NFL 2014-2015 Season: Super Bowl Champion Patriots

[Team Alucard]

Ed Reed, the only man Tom Brady ever feared.

[Anacybele]

Sorry, but I disagree. And Polamalu has given good QBs trouble. Michael Vick was really good and Polamalu's been able to pick him off, for example. Polamalu has also picked off your Joe Flacco and you're always saying he's so good. This has only happened once, but still. Oh yeah, he got to Brady once or twice as well (like that infamous play where Polamalu nailed him and punched the ball into the endzone).

I'm not saying Polamalu was better than Reed. I think they had equal skill level. That's that.

And it isn't only interceptions that Polamalu could do well. He could tackle like nobody's business (Flying Superman anyone?) and he could shut down like half the field because he was all over the place. I'm hoping Ryan Shazier turns out to be similar because he can be everywhere and he picked off a pass in the preseason. Trust me, offenses feared this guy too. Good QBs knew to stay away from him.

You're not going to change my mind. Seriously.

Also, William Gay has been plenty effective for us this season. THREE pick-sixes, and he almost got a few more picks from passes he batted away. He's our only good corner left, really...

Edited February 25, 2015 by Anacybele

[Lord Raven]

You're not going to change my mind. Seriously.

First of all, I won't change your mind because you don't listen to anything that can be considered logic or reason, aside from the mental gymnastics you play with yourself. It's okay to have this mentality, just don't expect to have anything resembling a warm reception if you post something that you don't use proper facts to back up.

Now, from there...

Sorry, but I disagree. And Polamalu has given good QBs trouble. Michael Vick was really good and Polamalu's been able to pick him off, for example. Polamalu has also picked off your Joe Flacco and you're always saying he's so good. This has only happened once, but still.

Michael Vick was a very good running quarterback with a laser arm, but he was generally mediocre as a passer. The only reason he was any bit of a quality passer was because he could fit it into tight windows (he had a howitzer attached to his arm) and defenses had to prepare for many things - his legendary (and I mean legendary) running ability and the fact that he had Warrick Dunn and others to hand off to. Roddy White was no slouch to pass to either.

A lot of DBs have picked off Joe Flacco... you're acting like DBs never pick off quarterbacks. You know who picked off Manning twice in the divisional round? I don't expect the majority of NFL fans to know, but it was a little known cornerback known as Corey Graham. But Graham is not the greatest CB of all time, even though he picked off the greatest QB of all time. Graham does not consistently put fear into an opponent. Graham does not command the entire defensive backfield. Graham does not constantly - and I mean constantly - make adjustments to the back field. In fact, neither does Troy Polamalu, amusingly enough.

Ed Reed, however, does. He makes adjustments in the backfield because he actually tends to know where the ball is going well in advance. There are very few plays out there (and much of the time they tend to be running plays) where Reed is not near the ball in some way, shape, or form.

And it isn't only interceptions that Polamalu could do well. He could tackle like nobody's business (Flying Superman anyone?) and he could shut down like half the field because he was all over the place. I'm hoping Ryan Shazier turns out to be similar because he can be everywhere and he picked off a pass in the preseason. Trust me, offenses feared this guy too. Good QBs knew to stay away from him.

For every one of those Flying Superman plays, he's had more duds.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000414600/Polamalu-just-a-bit-offside

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/videos/videos/NFLN-Polamalu-Leaps-Over-Line/1fdf92a8-b1a5-43c2-8af0-e008bd579fec

It has rarely worked when the Steelers were losing, and he only tends to do it for no real reason when the Steelers basically have the game in the bag. Reed's changed games with his massive plays.

Polamalu's over half the field? Reed's contributed to a team that has never allowed over 4.0 ypc in their entire history, and only once have they allowed exactly 4.0 ypc. Reed could destroy screens and bust the run just as well as Polamalu, but he had much more quickness than Polamalu. The difference is that Reed was significantly better in coverage and never made many of those plays because he didn't need to time the snap count. Instead, Reed was placed in a spot where he was the greatest of all time: the center field free safety who knows what the QB is doing on 95% of plays.

Ray Lewis has made very similar plays to Polamalu but has never gotten an offsides penalty off of them, and the best part was that he has done it when it saved games more often than not. Polamalu's had a pick six and fumble recovery on Flacco to ice some games, but the majority of his highlight reel plays were beating up on lesser teams. Ray Lewis has done ridiculous shit in crunch time when the Ravens were about to lose.

People say "look for the hair" with Polamalu, but that's only because they occasionally blitz him. It's also because he actually has this as a pretty easy trait to recognize him. You never look for the hair when Reed's blitzing, simply because there's no hair; he's just there and the QB is equally fucked as when Polamalu gets there.

Are you also aware that Ed Reed has had over twice as many picks in his career as Polamalu has? Polamalu only has 3 more forced fumbles. Ed Reed was a screen wrecking, run stopping, turnover machine. Polamalu was a dude with a lot of hair that played on a secondary that doesn't miss much without him.

(I also know Ed Reed is the postseason interception leader - he has 9 vs Polamalu's 3).

Those are the raw stats that basically assess how much more dominant Reed was in the secondary. The fact that actually elite quarterbacks were afraid of throwing it anywhere in the vicinity of Ed Reed vs not being particularly afraid of Polamalu should say volumes more about Reed.

Also, William Gay has been plenty effective for us this season. THREE pick-sixes, and he almost got a few more picks from passes he batted away. He's our only good corner left, really...

Mike Mitchell blows, Ike Taylor blows, and Ryan Shazier isn't someone that inspires hope with his numerous injuries (and relatively poor play when not injured). Then again, he could just look like crap compared to CJ Mosley who has made some Ray Lewis-esque plays as a rookie.

Pick sixes are largely a fluke. I've seen two of the pick sixes you're talking about, and they generally happen close to the line of scrimmage by a random DB floating around there, or on the outside, and Gay's have been basically entirely on the outside. At any rate, saying Gay was a good corner strengths my argument, because Williams was one of the worst corners in the game in Philly, and looked passable in Baltimore when he played with Ed Reed (also notched a bunch of picks because, thanks to #20 having his back, he could go for them). Just going to put it out there at any rate, Ed Reed's pick sixes have been off of ridiculous plays in traffic, so Reed was actually extra fearful.

Polamalu's only real strength was that he hit a little harder, maybe, but Reed is generally significantly better as a pass defender.

The most underrated factor is that Reed had to make up for our significant offensive deficiencies for around the 6 years before Harbaugh. Steelers O from 2002 to 2007 was good; Ravens offense was fucking terrible.

Also, Reed was significantly better with special teams, namely gunning and blocking. He was also a good returner.

You still fail to mention the significant difference in supporting casts between the two.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Anacybele]

Yeah, that's too long of a post to make a huge detailed reply to at this hour...

First of all, I won't change your mind because you don't listen to anything that can be considered logic or reason, aside from the mental gymnastics you play with yourself. It's okay to have this mentality, just don't expect to have anything resembling a warm reception if you post something that you don't use proper facts to back up.

loool. You're hilarious. Bringing up past plays ARE facts. And I listen to people plenty. You included. You just fail to acknowledge the times I've said that you've taught me a lot of things and even changed some of my opinions.

[Lord Raven]

Yeah, that's too long of a post to make a huge detailed reply to at this hour...

If I had a nickel for every time I heard this...

loool. You're hilarious. Bringing up past plays ARE facts.

That's one fact. You know who's picked off Ben Roethlisberger? Darian Stewart and Matt Elam (although the latter was a 2 point conversion), and they're mediocre to poor safeties. Your facts really mean nothing, because anyone can make a play at any given time, and one or two examples of anecdotal evidence don't mean much.

And I listen to people plenty. You included. You just fail to acknowledge the times I've said that you've taught me a lot of things and even changed some of my opinions.

But when you say "you won't change my mind," you're actually doing quite the opposite of this. Edited February 25, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Anacybele]

If I had a nickel for every time I heard this...

That's one fact. You know who's picked off Ben Roethlisberger? Darian Stewart and Matt Elam (although the latter was a 2 point conversion), and they're mediocre to poor safeties. Your facts really mean nothing, because anyone can make a play at any given time, and one or two examples of anecdotal evidence don't mean much.

But when you say "you won't change my mind," you're actually doing quite the opposite of this.

If I had a nickel for every time you made an essay-long post in this thread...

So? William Gay picked off Andrew Luck and you always said he's a great QB. Even the best QBs make mistakes. Even dumb mistakes.

Well, I don't NEED to say "you won't change my mind" when you actually do change it.

[chococoke]

From my completely objective standpoint:

-Hines WAS one of the dirtiest WRs I can remember (if not top of the list.) His habit of hunting DBs grew old pretty quickly. Thanks for posting that Jarret Johnson highlight, LR

-Polamalu was certainly an above-average safety in his prime (although really just as big hitter, I don't remember him ever being better than serviceable in coverage) but no safety in the game (past or present) compares to Ed Reed. Not only was he arguably as cerebral as offensive guys like Peyton, but he could play single high and still manage to make a play on either fucking sideline, somehow.

Pretty glad that guy's gone, hopefully Baltimore's secondary will just remain awful for the rest of eternity. Bonus opinion: fuq Ray Lewis in his stupid stabby face

Also, Raven, did I catch you referring to Peyton Manning as the greatest QB of all-time in that post? Brahhhhhhhhh

[Anacybele]

Alright, fair enough on both Ward and Polamalu. But Hines Ward is still an awesome dude off the field, just like James Harrison (who I admit was a dirty player on the field. I mean, all those fines and that running joke of "James Harrison will be fined for this").

Yeah, Pey-Pey WAS a great QB, and I used to say he was the best too, but lately I'm thinking he's got competition from Brady and Rodgers. And maybe Russell Wilson.

And yes, I hope the Ravens' secondary remains bad, so my Steelers' awesome receivers can tear them apart again (AB run all over them again! Run run run!). Heh heh. Also, their defensive line can suck an egg. I hate Terrell Suggs especially because of his dirty play on LeGarrette Blount. I've seen dirty plays before, but nothing compared to how unnecessary and cheap that was.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Anacybele

[chococoke]

Here's an interesting read re: Manning v. Brady

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/no-debate-facts-show-tom-brady-better-than-peyton-manning/31873/

[Anacybele]

Huh, that is interesting. I still think Rodgers should be in there too though. xP

And this is coming from someone who dislikes both the Pats and Packers.

[chococoke]

I'm sure once A-Rodge is in his late 30's he'll make it into comparison articles

[Lord Raven]

I've read that article and I'll counter it in more detail later, but they love to quote a bunch of stats out of context and say "well here's a fact, you can't argue against that!" when there's a context behind everything.

Also Brady is 138 TDs behind Manning with 4 less years starting, meaning he had to average 35 TDs/year in either the next four years or in the four years prior to Manning to catch up to the volume stats. I think Manning's TD/year average is higher. Also, Belichick's Patriots teams were always balanced aside from maybe a run game, which is kind of interesting because Manning's teams have been completely about the pass game and a quick release followed by a very good pass rush. Poor run defense and post-Edgerrin James was a poor run game. You can look at ppg/ypg and argue the defenses, but in the end the Colts have been Bottom 5-10 in run defense every year without fail and the fact is that the Colts were built to get to and maintain an early lead. They've torched a lot of great defenses just as much as as they've been stopped by them. When the Colts have fallen behind, for the most part, they have issues making it back because of their defense and because Manning has to be the hero.

To add onto that, Tony "Can't win many playoff games" Dungy, Jim "Never won a playoff game" Mora, and Jim "|:" Caldwell were his coaches, compared to Bill Belichick. Belichick was known for a defense that changes around based on who he's facing, whereas Dungy is known for stoutly focusing on a Tampa 2 defense even though he didn't have the personnel to stop the run with it. Caldwell is known for taking the previous regime's playbook and not doing much more, and Jim Mora has issues when the playoffs come around.

Finally, Manning played a lot more vertical through most of his career than Tom Brady, so it makes sense if he has less completion% and more interception%.

Pats fans need to stop saying it's unarguable, because it's gotten insufferable since Super Bowl #4. It took a significantly better secondary than previous years, which still barely overcame Joe Flacco's Dragon Ascent and that goal line stand in the Super Bowl (given how close that TD pass was to becoming a TD) to finally win #4. And they could only win their first 3 - just barely - thanks to the strength of a consistently good secondary and linebacking corps.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Lord Raven

[chococoke]

Note: I never said it was inarguable that Tom Brady was a better QB. I just said here's an interesting read. Sure, they barely won all 4 - what the hell does that matter? If things go the Patriots' way in every playoff game since 2001, they could have 7 SB victories (I'm still incredibly salty at Manning's only successful season, and the Super Bowl that year was the AFC championship, not against Rex Grossman 2 weeks after) (EDIT: That year is a pretty good example of Manning leading a successful comeback against the Pats. He also did it in '09 with the help from a certain aggressive 4th down call)

The Ravens barely won their second Super Bowl. In fact, they had a substantial lead and almost blew it. Does that make the championship any more/less valid?

Honestly, I don't believe Tom Brady is the best QB of all-time. Even in his prime and with one of the greatest deep threats of all-time, he was still pretty rough when attempting the deep ball. Brady absolutely IS the best short-intermediate passer in recent memory, which is obviously worth something considering he's also the most accomplished QB

Edited February 25, 2015 by chococoke

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think Peyton Manning is the best QB of all time. Maybe in the regular season, but it's hard to deny the fact that he regularly...isn't very good at all in the playoffs. It's not like the Colts/Broncos have been losing shootouts in the postseason either for the most part so it's hard to pin it all on the defense- the year Manning did win a Super Bowl was when the defense played better in the playoffs.

[Lord Raven]

I never said they were invalid (although you argue 7 rings when we could argue 3 rings in the same vein). I also meant that it was a plague spread across most Pats fans, although I assumed too little of you. Having that said, I didn't mean Peyton as the unequivocal GOAT (because let's be honest that's going to be Joe Flacco starting next year, where he throws for 3995 yards and 58 TDs, and people will still say "well he still hasn't thrown for 4000 yards") but he is one of the GOATs.

Manning was generally better than Brady athletically (until these past few years) and with his arm strength (until these past few years), but he was on teams that were much worse than winning in the playoffs. Pretty different quarterbacks despite being GOATs at the position. I'm just having some flashbacks everytime I see a Manning vs Brady debate, where a bunch of Pats fans go "Manning is just a poor man's Brady."

EDIT: The defense tends to look a bit better when you look at PA, but their TOP and rush yards allowed were in the gutter. Also, in general, I think he's had like 5-6 playoff games where they had a lead going into the second half of the fourth quarter and the defense pissed it away.

He's actually had like 5-6 good playoff runs (two ending in Super Bowl losses, the second Super Bowl loss was a baaaaaaaad game though, and it would be closer if the Broncos had a defense and if they didn't keep going for it on fourth down). His Super bowl win was in a playoff run against 3 of the best defenses that season (one being one of the greatest of all time - the 2006 Ravens). In 2009 the Colts completely dominated the playoffs and had a close game against New Orleans. In 2013 the Broncos had their way with the Chargers and Patriots.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Lord Raven

[chococoke]

I mean I'm pretty sure I've acknowledged this before, but Pats fans are some of the worst fans ever. I'm in a Patriots Facebook group and the amount of dumb shit I've read since I joined 2 months ago is mind-boggling. Also any "football" fan that says that about Peyton needs to be kicked in the scrote.

Also WRT Flacco, I'm hoping that him and Marc Trestman will somehow clash violently and result in a bad-Eli year for him. I think he's due for one

[Lord Raven]

Err, did you miss the entirety of 2013?

[chococoke]

Apparently I did

EDIT: He's still due for more

Edited February 25, 2015 by chococoke

[Anacybele]

I mean I'm pretty sure I've acknowledged this before, but Pats fans are some of the worst fans ever. I'm in a Patriots Facebook group and the amount of dumb shit I've read since I joined 2 months ago is mind-boggling.

I'm sure every team's Facebook page has idiots and assholes, to be honest. If you check out the Steelers' page, you'll see dumb shit there too sometimes, usually complaining about the coaches when we lose, and praising everybody when we win (unless it's a close win, then people just bitch how it shouldn't have come down to this or that). It's like none of these fans can acknowledge when the players are the ones making mistakes, not the coaches. No coach is perfect, but you can't blame Tomlin or LeBeau for the lack of talent on the defense or Haley when the o-line decides to shit itself and let Ben get sacked multiple times in a row. What's more, I thought Haley was terrible at first, but he's ended up being part of the reason our offense was ranked highest in the league!

[Lord Raven]

Ravens FB as of late is mostly "why isnt Joe Flacco considered elite" and "Tom Brady wears a mini skirt at home and Gisele does some femdom things to him i cant mention on facebook" or something. A lot of intelligent people.

Actually I have no idea if it is, I just get news on my news feed and I dont check the comments, but I don't think I'd be too far off. I don't disagree with them.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Anacybele]

lol, figures there'd be stuff about Brady there given that loss to the Pats. :P

Oh yeah, fans of other teams will sometimes go make fun of us too, like how the Ravens fans made fun of us for losing to them in the playoffs. And I'm sure Steelers fans have made fun of them in the past too. I don't condone this behavior at all either, regardless of who's being made fun of and who's doing the bullying.

[Lord Raven]

I dunno, I actually made all that up.

[Anacybele]

Oh. Well then. xP

You know, it astonishes me that any Ravens fans go to the Steelers page or any Steelers fans go to the Ravens page. We hate each other, we shouldn't give a crap about one another's Facebook pages. :P

[Jiac]

I could argue Rivers having 3 rings too.

Fuck Marlon Mcree.

[Lord Raven]

Where are rings #2 and #3?