British Mafia - Game Over! Britain Wins!

[Baldrick]

Ascetics eschew worldly pleasures, and as such do not own a house. So people who try to visit them don't have an address and can't find them.

@Makaze If you had voted Cam, it would have been 6-5 and he would have been lynched, not a no-lynch.

D1 Shinori voted Paper for consolidation, a couple of hours before Psych did. Possible that they just decided he was getting lynched. Shinori didn’t say who he thought was a better target, just >anything else would be a turbo wagon” which is slack. You don’t just accept a lynch you don’t agree with because finding an alternative is too hard and unlikely to happen.

On Psych’s side, Inexplicable prodvote?

The next day, Shinori had a slapfight with Psych, doesn’t seem too serious. Psych listed Shinori as a scum read, thought his vote was bad but didn’t try to push him very hard at all.

At the moment I have a lot of bias hate/reason to vote Psych though, so here's to hoping that doesn't affect my thought process.

This is pretty intriguing. Too bad we never got that content post!

Neither Cam nor Psych seemed very interested in lynching anyone other than the other all day, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

Prims was an early vote on Paper, given the latter's activity if Prims was mafia the plan was probably to sac Paper. I don't think Psych would have gone for a last-minute counterwagon in that case, so I'm fairly certain Prims is not mafia.

##vote: Shinori

[Prims]

Actually, I have an interesting theory.

@Shin: is a member of the scum team allowed to go on the kill and use actions (eg, roleblock, rolecop) in the same night?

[Makaze]

Hmm. I don't think that in itself absolves him, but there is one other things that bugs me now that you mention it. Psych voted Cam to get the wagon off himself and the same argument applies to his vote. Unlike Cam, we know Psych is scum, so why would Psych join a tiny wagon on a scumbuddy instead of pushing someone else? In light of this and your argument, Cam is probably town. I doubt they would intentionally target each other.

Sorry for the lazy post/vote.

##Unvote: Cam

@Eury: Where is your earlier fervor and strong reading? It (seems) unlike you to post without a vote.

Waiting on that post from Baldrick.

On to you, Prims. You steadfastly dismissed the wagon on Psych. How do you feel about his flip and/or who seems like a believable buddy of his?

[Prims]

i just wrote a reasonably sized post where i voted eury dude

imo her and kay are the most likely buddies

I see where Baldrick is coming from on Shinori but don't agree for the reasons I posted.

[Makaze]

You're right.

I was more wondering how you felt about being wrong about Psych but your arguments have been all around good. Can't blame you for a bad gut read.

I see both of the scummy actions from Shinori and Eurykins. Shinori has been below my radar despite scummy behavior and that is sending red flags now, but still leaning more Eurykins for reasons stated throughout the thread. I would like an answer to my question to Eury before voting again though.

[Prims]

Makaze, were you roleblocked last night?

Feel free not to answer if you don't want to; I might be able to crack something open though.

[Makaze]

Not that I know of. Sorry.

[Prims]

also I don't feel bad about being wrong about Psych, being wrong is part of mafia so whatever. I have never been able to read Psych well. (#johns)

[Baldrick]

@Makaze What post is that?

[Makaze]

Hm? If you mean the one I waited for, it was the one you said was on the way. It hadn't been posted when I started writing my questions.

[Baldrick]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=48165&page=34#entry3156017

That said, it's moot now since Prims makes a good point on Shinori.

##unvote

##vote: Eury

This is more due to PoE and finding nothing wrong with Prims' case more than anything else.

[Shinori]

I'll try to get a content post up tomorrow. Probably not tonight though unless I randomly feel like it.

Sorry I've just been fairly disinterested this game. Dunno why or where it came from.

[Baldrick]

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that you are Shinori?

votals because I have nothing else to say

Eury (2): Prims, Baldrick

Makaze (1?): FFM ?

Cam (0): Makaze

Shinori (0): Baldrick

With 1 Devdan left alive, it takes 0.4 Devdan to lynch and 0.7 Devdan to hammer! There are a bit less than 66 hours remaining.

[Eurykins]

Sigh, tired... Why are two random votes being dropped on my head? Quit wasting time and find actual scum, guys, kthx.

@Makaze: Me ITP hunting is never something I'd do as ITP (I'm rather infamous for doing it often as town, and as of right now/currently, I've yet to ever role ITP of any sort, so that notion is kinda moot). Also not exactly a "tell" of me even possibly being one, really. ITP would wish to remain more subtle, and splashing around in your own waters is asking for a death sentence, imo.

Also, I just didn't care to vote at that time? It was pretty much the beginning of the phase, people know who my main focus is (AKA. You), and I gave my thoughts wrt the rest of the players (for the most part- still have a few to run through). My thoughts/priorities are already out in the open; it's pretty much all I can do for now.

##Vote: Eurykins
Walrein's play was lackluster. He dismissed Paper on meta that wasn't even true. If he were town he should've wanted to drag more content out of Paper if he agreed Paper's contributions weren't great.

Eury herself starts off D2 on Psych, but switches to Makaze once it's proven there's interest there (Darros). This post starts off by arguing that it's possible for Makaze to be mafia but switches to "nope, he's SK" over the course of the post. Why does Eury push Makaze as SK and not mafia? My thoughts are that she's scum (who would actively want to hunt the SK) and came to the conclusion Makaze was anti-town and as such decided to attack him. I could understand if she was just worried about it but she goes from thinking Makaze is scummy and possibly the SK to just hard pushing Makaze as our Serial Killer, which also conveniently keeps her off the Psych wagon.

I agree Makaze is the most likely ITP. Second pick would be Cam, because Nexus is a functional ascetic which is the most ITP claim in existence.

1. Math is hard, isn't it? SK + Mafia = 2 Nightkills each night. Remove one or the other, and you're down to 1 NK. As there was 2 Mafia and 1 SK alive last day phase, it seemed logical for me to aim for the removal of one of the NK sources, which is the ITP. Please stop waffling on and on about things that have been explained already and/or grasping on them.

2. I mentioned Psyche since Day 1 as a heavy scum read of mine. I even voted him earlier, but I felt that Makaze had priority over him. I also wasn't around for phase end, as I was preoccupied with Father's day plans, so hence why my vote never changed nor was I posting. So I fail to see how me not being on Psych wagon (which was a pretty damn easy wagon to hop on in itself, given his less than stellar gameplay) = convenient or a scum tell in my end.

3. I honestly don't know or care what Walrein may or may not have done. When I sub in, I don't sub in to explain/justify the prior player slot; I play the game in my own shoes. So truth be told, I don't even know or care much about why people may or may not have had issues with Walrein prior to me joining the game. (Not really my issue to resolve/elaborate on, imo.)

@Baldrick: Dat sheeping vote.

[Makaze]

I don't understand the reads for me as ITP since my actions can't really reflect that I am the ITP. (What is an ITP-like thing to do? Et cetera.)

FFM and Darros, who makes the most sense to you as scum in light of what just happened?

[Prims]

1. Math is hard, isn't it? SK + Mafia = 2 Nightkills each night. Remove one or the other, and you're down to 1 NK. As there was 2 Mafia and 1 SK alive last day phase, it seemed logical for me to aim for the removal of one of the NK sources, which is the ITP. Please stop waffling on and on about things that have been explained already and/or grasping on them.

Crossfire is a possibility but that's beside the point. I wasn't saying this but rather pointing out it makes no sense for you to specifically argue Makaze was the SK if you thought he made sense as mafia.

[Eurykins]

Crossfire is a possibility but that's beside the point. I wasn't saying this but rather pointing out it makes no sense for you to specifically argue Makaze was the SK if you thought he made sense as mafia.

*facedesk* Time to dig up posts...

@Boron:

Consider the feeling I've gotten from Makaze = similar to that of BB (Shining force 3) and Refa (SFMM4). Would also vaguely equate it to Scorri in ITTD, but I neglected looking into her for a long while that game. I have a good hunch that he's scum in some fashion, but gut feeling's making me lean more towards ITP than Mafia scum.

So from my PoV: I'm gunning after someone who's tripping off my scumdar (just as Psyche is, and a few others now), and also someone who's potentially dropping ITP/SK vibes to me. As town, scum is scum is scum- the only good scum is dead scum. If I had a choice between Mafia or SK lynch today though, my answer/choice should be obvious by this point.

TL;DR: He's like BB in Shining Force 3; pretty damn certain he's SK/ITP, not Mafia. His actions (logically) also suit ITP moreso than Mafia scum, as well as his posting/reactions/actions as a whole. So I don't think I've ever once stated that he feels like Mafia scum (the closest I got was saying "he feels like some sort of scum to me", but heavily leaning towards SK). That is why I've never bothered labeling him as anything else, because I don't think he's Mafia scum.

Either way, he should honestly die this day phase, and unless the last remaining scum seriously scumslips and gets themselves caught, I'd be skeptical of aiming for anyone else. I'd prefer 2 people not getting shot next night phase, if at all possible, and I'm fairly confident that his lynch will remove one or the two sources.

##Vote: Makaze

[Eurykins]

"...will remove one or of the two sources."

I'm so good at typos.

[Baldrick]

ITP would wish to remain more subtle,

And yet you've been strongly pushing for what would the least subtle ITP ever.

So I fail to see how me not being on Psych wagon (which was a pretty damn easy wagon to hop on in itself, given his less than stellar gameplay) = convenient or a scum tell in my end.

If you're not voting him, he has one less vote and so is less likely to have a majority. (Maths!) But seriously, you were pushing him enough so that you can claim town cred after his claim, yet managed to avoid actually making it more likely that he'd be lynched.

@Baldrick: Dat sheeping vote.

baaaaaa

I've already talked about how I'm not-mafia reading most of the game. I find that scum tend to make potshots like that so I'm feeling more confident in the lynch.

Why are you still going for the SK lynch? Lynching the last mafia will also remove a nightkill source, and going for them is a lot more reliable since we have two mafia flips to look for associative reads.

[CT075]

Eurykins has been hunting for the ITP and voted their ITP suspicions instead of mafia suspicions. That could be an ITP tell.

I'm curious,

Cam's weird prodding and voting habits set off red flags, including the late vote on Psych. Same as before but now with refusal to vote scum until the last minute twice in a row.

Someone else (was it prims? idr) already brought up that the scum play there would have been to hardpush psych as much as possible (or tie it up last second by unvoting). WRT "refusal to vote scum twice", I'll admit that I let Paperblade slip and that sucked. As for psych, my thoughts were "there's no way an entire scumteam could be that stupid", hence "I don't think psych is scum".

Baldrick refused to vote Psych and got very adamant in the last few seconds. Reads like a possible gambit to get me to change my vote at the last second, leading to a no-lynch. Not enough time to form a new wagon on me. Doesn't make sense.

I still think that Baldrick is scum because junko (even though apparently nobody else agrees with me???) and being the only one to really hardpush people other than psych

he also did that Thing where you paint someone else as scummy as possible at the end of the phase which seems suspiciously similar to Lining Up Lynches (not gonna bother pushing it though because that's all I've got)

Walrein's play was lackluster. He dismissed Paper on meta that wasn't even true. If he were town he should've wanted to drag more content out of Paper if he agreed Paper's contributions weren't great.

I'm inclined to disagree with this mostly because Paperblade stated that he was busy and it's common courtesy to give him some grace

Eury herself starts off D2 on Psych, but switches to Makaze once it's proven there's interest there (Darros). This post starts off by arguing that it's possible for Makaze to be mafia but switches to "nope, he's SK" over the course of the post. Why does Eury push Makaze as SK and not mafia? My thoughts are that she's scum (who would actively want to hunt the SK) and came to the conclusion Makaze was anti-town and as such decided to attack him. I could understand if she was just worried about it but she goes from thinking Makaze is scummy and possibly the SK to just hard pushing Makaze as our Serial Killer, which also conveniently keeps her off the Psych wagon.

Her first line is neutral wrt mafia vs SK scum (towncred is beneficial to both), next line briefly touches on it but doesn't make any assertion ("if you're scum of any sort"), then kind of launches into SK spec.

I disagree that concluding that someone is SK and pushing them for it makes the attacker scum themselves; it's perfectly reasonable to say "oh this looks like a scummy but maybe not a mafia play", and it makes sense to remove a source of kills if possible. I agree that seemingly dropping Psych out of the blue is bad, though

I liked Shinori's D1 contentpost but in retrospect all the people he was on were likely town, so I don't know. I get the impression of a misguided townie rather than scum from his actions at D1 deadline because he gripes about the Paper wagon but does nothing to get another player lynched instead, leading me to believe he doesn't have scum intent.

I would argue that trying to last minute shitlynch someone would have had worse consequences than just riding it out

the viable candidates were Makaze and FFM, and a hypothetical scum!Shinori would look incredibly bad for engineering a turbo on them

Psych's vote shows that scum -was- willing to start a counterwagon, so Shinori never switching shows a lack of coordination between him and other scum.

Assuming that Paper wasn't around (for admittedly no good reason but I also see no reason to assume that he would have attempted to marshal his team), it could also indicate that Psych was the uncoordinated one. Recall that the scumteam consists of Paperblade/Psych/???, and with Paperblade under fire it's entirely possible for the two remaining members to have differing opinions on how to handle things.

imo her and kay are the most likely buddies

there's only one scum left unless I fail at counting? Boron's numbers say 12/3/1, then psych and paperblade were both mafia leaving us at X/1/1?

@Makaze: Me ITP hunting is never something I'd do as ITP (I'm rather infamous for doing it often as town, and as of right now/currently, I've yet to ever role ITP of any sort, so that notion is kinda moot). Also not exactly a "tell" of me even possibly being one, really. ITP would wish to remain more subtle, and splashing around in your own waters is asking for a death sentence, imo.

self-meta and WIFOM imo

I don't understand the reads for me as ITP since my actions can't really reflect that I am the ITP. (What is an ITP-like thing to do? Et cetera.)

Don't self-meta please, it gets us nowhere

[CT075]

I'm curious,

ignore this i was going somewhere with that and then realized it was dumb

[Eurykins]

And yet you've been strongly pushing for what would the least subtle ITP ever.

If you're not voting him, he has one less vote and so is less likely to have a majority. (Maths!) But seriously, you were pushing him enough so that you can claim town cred after his claim, yet managed to avoid actually making it more likely that he'd be lynched.

baaaaaa

I've already talked about how I'm not-mafia reading most of the game. I find that scum tend to make potshots like that so I'm feeling more confident in the lynch.

Why are you still going for the SK lynch? Lynching the last mafia will also remove a nightkill source, and going for them is a lot more reliable since we have two mafia flips to look for associative reads.

1. Already been over Makaze case multiple times, which explains my thought process on why I believe him to be the ITP/SK. Besides, I believe some of the actions- albeit careless- also stem from him lacking playing experience and slipping several times with his posts/intentions (also lacking a mentor as well, as compared to Training).

2. I was probably the first/one of the first to vote him that day phase and to start the case(s) on him, so if anything, I aided in starting the snowball that rolled down hill and eventually slammed into his head. And again, I wasn't online when the phase was winding down either, so even if I wanted to, no votes could've come from me to swap from Makaze to Psych.

3. Uh, I fail to see what "potshots" you're referring to (since I'm assuming by that notion that you believe I took one at you?).

4. Because I'm pretty damn confident in my ITP/SK feeling/read on Makaze, and that too will remove a NK source? At this point, my mind/priority is kinda tunneled/stuck on him, and I'd rather my biggest/most distracting scum read be removed to focus on others.

And though it helps (this is regarding associative reads), it also depends on who the remaining scum is from Mafia-side. If it winds up being someone like Shinori or Kay (the quieter/more inactive ones), you're not going to find a whole lot to run off of with them (aside from what's already been said). I already gave my thoughts in terms of such earlier (so not much else for me to say at this point), which is why I'm sticking with my strongest read period. ITP/SK or Mafia- they're both scum. As such, I don't care which falls under the lynch today, and I see no reason to drop Makaze when no one else to me atm is pinging me just as hard as being scum.

[Shinori]

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that you are Shinori?

It's not generally this bad. x.x

[Prims]

As far as I'm concerned Eury is not scumhunting.

Cam, is Shinori the last mafia?

[CT075]

I wouldn't be surprised