Bakuman/Death Note and sexism [Spoilers abound]

[Florete]

I saw this discussion when I was away but didn't have a chance to respond until now, so I'm making the topic for it.

Jumping into the middle here because fuck responding to everything.

i mentioned how in bakuman the two main female protagonists literally only live to serve the male protagonists. one of them is dim, has a curvy body, and is flirtatious, and all she does is hang around and get the men what they want. she is unsure what she wants to do with her life and then decides her life dream is to marry one of the male protagonists and be useful to him in his journey as a mangaka. her only ambition is to be a housewife.

This is not necessarily misogynist. Good female characters don't have to lift and "need no man." Instead, I applaud the author for actually doing her justice for what she is; she's an interesting and likeable character that gets plenty of screen time. She doesn't need extraordinary life goals and solo missions to be a good character.

the other is an extremely submissive and "femenine" character whose life dream is to become a seiyuu so she can star in the protagonist's anime and then marry him. she is a goal to him, and this idea is reinforced throughout the work.

"she is a goal to him" what the fuck.

Disclaimer: I watched the anime and did not read the manga. From what I've heard it's a very faithful adaptation, so I'm assuming what I saw is the same as what anyone read.

They are goals for each other. Maybe it's a little sad that we didn't see much of Azuki's side of things, but she still had to work to make her end of the deal happen, and her side definitely did exist (aka she's not some princess in a castle awaiting her hero). Oh, but we did see some of what she did: the entire fucking climax of Bakuman, the audition, was entirely Azuki's battle, with Mashiro and Takagi being completely helpless in every way. Azuki, a female and not even a protagonist of the main story, was the one taking on the final fight alone, and you think her character is misogynist? Esau was right, that is becoming a buzzword.

And don't try to downplay this, either, because that audition was a big fucking deal and if you know the story you know that.

misa's purpose is very similar, but she's just fucking crazy, right? i mean, there are totally other strong female characters in the work. uh

Misa is not the best female character in anime/manga by any means, but despite her intense loyalty to Light, she still has a pretty strong will and isn't afraid to make things happen on her own. Other stuff in Death Note has been pointed out, such as the one female agent that nearly got Light and the simple fact that Light is vilified at every turn and pretty much nothing he does is shown to be very good.

there are two female mangakas in bakuman. they are both criticised for trying to break it into a man's world when they try to write shounen. one of them is also unsurprisingly entirely incompetent when unaided. and treated as a goal, because why not. this character is vilified for daring to try to write for jump, and for turning down some crazy slob who was really totally sincere in his confession.

Did I interpret it differently or did the anime portray it differently? I don't recall any "criticized for trying to break it into a man's world." Yuriko wanted to write shoujo manga but was told her style was more fitting for shounen, and upon trying to get published there just needed to alter her style a bit more to really make it "shounen." Iwase basically got herself published immediately, a rare feat for anyone, man or woman, and only needed an artist to partner with, which Niizuma jumped on happily.

I recall it being the other way around with Yuriko and Nakai. He was shown as a creepy stalker and got kicked out of the show. Sincere or not, he pushed a little too hard for someone who did not reciprocate his feelings.

really, there's a fuckton to say about it. you can google "bakuman sexism" and i am sure you'd come up with something.

People will stretch for anything. Is there sexism in Bakuman? I wouldn't doubt it, but nothing it has is going to be any worse than your average shounen series out there, and it's probably actually a lot better than most.

[Skynstein]

I hate this trend that every female protagonist needs to be "strong" and "need no man". It's nice to see women in fiction like this, but it's not a new thing and may not even be realistic since feminist girls aren't the majority even today. I thought the fact Misa saw Light as an idol was a nice twist, because I was expecting her to compete with him. Plus the fact Light's manipulative skills don't distinguish between gender. He manipulates EVERYONE, including his own father.

[Randa]

You know misa gets a lot of shit, but I honestly think that this is more meant to highlight the charisma and, very interestingly, the depravity of light. Ohba had the liberty to show light's brilliance and cunning through the use of L and Near, however they at times fail to show a clear distinction between good and evil and thats why a character who otherwise be completely innocent is needed to show light's evil side more clearly. This happens again with the last couple chapters where takada and mikami are both used by light to accomplish his goals. I really think misa wasn't an example of sexism so much as another example of light's (insert choice word here).

Bakuman had no signs of sexism to me. I'm sure that if we had just followed the girls we would be saying the boys were just used to enhance the characters.

[Tryhard]

I'm not against reflecting on gender roles or anything like that. Character analysis is fine, and I enjoy deconstructing authors' works. I'm just so jaded by the constant discussion of characters' and inclusion of this or that commonality or stereotype as being indicative of some prevalent social catastrophe, is all. Like, yeah, the characters spoken of aren't incredibly deep or sophisticated, of course they're pretty stereotypical and I'm totally understanding of people being annoyed by that. To me, though, it's frustrating to see someone take these stories and then project their stereotypes or lack of this characterization or that on reality, ignoring the entire work and attacking the creators that were just trying to please an audience. It's just impossible to enjoy anything today without it and subsequently their creators being labeled racist, sexist, or some suiting -phobic.

It works in reverse, too, when claims --however credible-- are lobbed at authors. I can't get my cousin to read Ender's Game because he's part of the LGBT community and hates Orson Scott Card. I keep trying to tell him that it has nothing to do with his works, but he refuses to humor me. And that sucks, you know?

When reading over this I agreed with Esau. I suppose I try to disassociate a creator and their works - As another example, I don't live in the US, but I heard that Chick-Fil-A makes some damn good sandwiches. Unfortunately, they (the company, or at least the CEO) are also anti-LGBT, which causes some people to boycott said works, even if they would enjoy it.

I tried to read Bakuman before, but I didn't really pick up on the alleged sexism that people are talking about - but maybe I just wasn't looking enough.

Death Note died with L, gg.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Tryhard

[BBM]

the Ender series is good because OSC shows off his writing ability without delving too deeply into his own personal philosophies

then you read Empire and you're like UHHHHHHHH

[Zkirsche]

As much as I love it, there is a point in death note where Light is like "Why are all women so stupid?" and the female aids to Light are made out to be pretty stupid at times when it comes down to him and are often the ones blamed for

Light's downfall. After all, the only reason Light had to give himself up in the first place was arguably because of Misa, and the existence of Rem is often portrayed as a hindrance to him.

Iunno I can sorta see why some people could consider it a problem. Haven't read/seen Bakuman so can't comment there though.

Edit: I mean, you could interpret them as just more of Light's pawns but then *insert objectified argument here* and I'd actually disagree with that interpretation as Light often curses them and they're made out of be hindrances rather than aides overall.

Edited July 8, 2014 by kirsche

[BBM]

Light gave himself up originally bc he was a main suspect and because doing so cleared suspicion on him. It probably would have happened regardless of Misa. And Rem is a hindrance, yes, but I don't see how that's a misogynistic view of females? If anything it's the opposite because a female was able to purposely oppose and hinder Light (but ultimately failed).

also I can't remember the name of the dude with the blue hair but he's moreso the reason than any of the girls IMO

[Florete]

also I can't remember the name of the dude with the blue hair but he's moreso the reason than any of the girls IMO

Yeah, Near was able to take advantage of how methodical he was, which was the particular thing that led to Light's downfall.

Barring Ryuk, practically every character in the series is a hindrance to Light at one point or another. I never saw any point at which the women were made out to be worse or less competent or something. Light's specific cursing of women really only shows him to be an even worse person, since he's the character being vilified.

[Zkirsche]

He was a main suspect but he was caught when they proved Misa was the second kira. Also, when the second kira first appeared all he was doing was berating her existence and actions. I mean it's not just one female though, it's females as a whole are looked down upon by light whereas people like L & co and their teams are begrudgingly respected. The main culprt of misogyny is that scene I first mentioned which sort of highlights a very commonly held stereotype in women, but I feel like his views as a whole are pretty misogynistic at times as well.

Of course I don't think it detracts from the experience and nor do I feel like it is greatly hurting women but I think at times it is there. I guess for me it comes down to "does having a misogynistic PoV character reinforce sexist beliefs?" which is largely a matter of opinion.

Edit: L is also shown to be a little sexist, when correctly deducing the fact that the tapes sent to the network he comments on how unusual it is that the criminal predicted to be killed in the tapes was only reported in women's magazine's and on TV for only a midday talk-show, which I assume is casting doubt on the idea that kira is a woman when there is little evidence suggesting kira is of either gender at that point. I will say that after rereading this section L is actually happier with the second kira than I originally remembered though.

Edited July 8, 2014 by kirsche

[Florete]

I see your point. Perhaps there's something to be said, but it's far from the first thing I'd point to when looking for sexism in anime and manga.

Also, since the very nature of the topic must include spoilers, I wasn't bothering marking any, but I'll mark the topic as a whole now, so don't worry about the tags anymore.

[Randa]

Yeah, Near was able to take advantage of how methodical he was, which was the particular thing that led to Light's downfall.

Barring Ryuk, practically every character in the series is a hindrance to Light at one point or another. I never saw any point at which the women were made out to be worse or less competent or something. Light's specific cursing of women really only shows him to be an even worse person, since he's the character being vilified.

In all actuality near almost screwed the whole thing up and almost got killed. But I think the moment where mello dies helps to reinforce that Light does not see a difference between men and women. There all pawns to be played and moved as he wants.

And honestly I think Ryuk was one of his biggest problems early on. What with the whole not be willing to help and not telling light anything in a timely fashion. He could've got him killed with penber or made the early portion of lights plan go a lot smoother, like with penbers wife. In conclusion Ryuk is an asshat. Still the best character though.

[Esau of Isaac]

When reading over this I agreed with Esau. I suppose I try to disassociate a creator and their works - As another example, I don't live in the US, but I heard that Chick-Fil-A makes some damn good sandwiches. Unfortunately, they (the company, or at least the CEO) are also anti-LGBT, which causes some people to boycott said works, even if they would enjoy it.

I tried to read Bakuman before, but I didn't really pick up on the alleged sexism that people are talking about - but maybe I just wasn't looking enough.

Death Note died with L, gg.

I mean, I can understand with Chick-Fil-A. You might not want to give them money to fund anti-gay legislation or some such. But my cousin wouldn't even consider reading Ender's Game, buying it or not. D:

He was a main suspect but he was caught when they proved Misa was the second kira. Also, when the second kira first appeared all he was doing was berating her existence and actions. I mean it's not just one female though, it's females as a whole are looked down upon by light whereas people like L & co and their teams are begrudgingly respected. The main culprt of misogyny is that scene I first mentioned which sort of highlights a very commonly held stereotype in women, but I feel like his views as a whole are pretty misogynistic at times as well.

Of course I don't think it detracts from the experience and nor do I feel like it is greatly hurting women but I think at times it is there. I guess for me it comes down to "does having a misogynistic PoV character reinforce sexist beliefs?" which is largely a matter of opinion.

Edit: L is also shown to be a little sexist, when correctly deducing the fact that the tapes sent to the network he comments on how unusual it is that the criminal predicted to be killed in the tapes was only reported in women's magazine's and on TV for only a midday talk-show, which I assume is casting doubt on the idea that kira is a woman when there is little evidence suggesting kira is of either gender at that point. I will say that after rereading this section L is actually happier with the second kira than I originally remembered though.

1.) Okay, but the original topic wasn't really concerning whether characters are sexist but whether the author is. I play a pen and paper game where the character I play as is a vampire, that doesn't make me a vampire.

2.) I don't remember the event extremely clearly, but I think he points out first that the time of the talk-shows was off, that they were minor criminals, and that they were killed for simple criticism. Then he points out, after it's a second killer, that the killer is probably a female because of the reports solely in womens' magazines.

[Zkirsche]

1) I wasn't part of the original discussion and much of the op is lost on me as I never read/watched Bakuman. I guess my point is more geared to whether it promotes misogyny in the reader but I believe that isn't so off-topic so that it doesn't merit discussion, especially when the topic title itself essentially encourages us to make/refute links between these manga and sexist beliefs. The comparison to the vampire is wrong though because we are talking about a moral code here, and not bio

logical. That said, it is obviously entirely possible to portray a character that is unlike yourself.

2) I came to that conclusion while reviewing the manga itself but reading past that statement alone does yield the relation to it being only reported a few times that was odd. This is a minor point though.

[Tryhard]

I mean, I can understand with Chick-Fil-A. You might not want to give them money to fund anti-gay legislation or some such. But my cousin wouldn't even consider reading Ender's Game, buying it or not. D:

Absolutely, I can understand why you wouldn't want to fund it. It's just I probably wouldn't care as long as I'm getting ballin' ass chicken sandwiches. I suppose if you bought and offered your cousin a chicken sandwich from Chick-Fil-A it would be the same, a principle thing. That's my own problem, I guess. Anyway, this is diverging from the point.

I also have a copy of Ender's Game even though I've never read it. Maybe if we send enough copies to your cousin they will eventually read it, right?

Edited July 8, 2014 by Tryhard

[Dark Sage]

I've been getting into Bakuman recently and I've enjoyed it. I can see a bit of why people might have some issues with the female portrayals but personally, I never found the representations sexist, just a bit out of focus. I'm only partway through though, so I'll wait until I finish to fully judge.

However these arguments:

really, there's a fuckton to say about it. you can google "bakuman sexism" and i am sure you'd come up with something.

All you keep doing is repeating the same thing: "I don't see how it's misogynistic." Well, too bad for you. Most other people can understand why it is: if you don't understand it, the problem is most likely with you, and not with us. Just google "bakuman sexist."

http://www.mangatherapy.com/post/1543578362/sexism-in-japan-bakuman

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/65503-Sexism-in-Bakuman

http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2012/09/i-hate-you-because-i-love-you-shonen-jump-boys-club-edition/

http://bakumansux.blogspot.com

are fucking stupid. You can google anything on the net and add misogynist/homophobic/whatever and you probably will get people accusing it of such qualities. That does not mean they're correct. The best example is Persona 4; there've been people who, I'm not kidding, have actually wrote articles on whether or not the game is homophobic or transphobic and you do see some accusations of the game being sexist too. But a closer look at the themes of the game and how female characters are portrayed show that they aren't that at all, quite the opposite in fact; it's an example of subtle progressivism. I'm not going to say that Bakuman is progressive or anything because I don't think it is, but I do want to point out how just using "google lol" is not a good argument for anything.

While I'm on the subject of accusations of prejudice and works, I'd like to point out that it's possible to have characters express some problematic viewpoints without it being approved by the author, and yes this includes sympathetic characters.

Also btw, wasn't Misa supposed to be like the Susan Atkins to Light's Charles Manson? I haven't read Death Note so I'm not sure, but if so, that actually might explain a bit.

[jiodi]

Awe my arguments didn't count? Well I'll be.

[Dark Sage]

There's not really a lot wrong with your arguments. I mean, I don't really agree that much, but it's much more nuanced and intelligent than what I was replying to. Actually, I'd be interested in addressing your argument at a later date when I've read more closely and thought about the issue a bit more.

I guess what bugged me is this: it's common to have politically incorrect elements in a work; sometimes, there can be trends or elements in a work that are written in a problematic way. Like in your example of Lord of the Rings and Orcs being a bit racist (I don't agree with this sentiment at all, but just for sake of example), that would be fair game for criticism. My main problem is when people use that as ammunition to trash an author's character when he's not actually explicitly expressed his opinions in a work or even outside it and could be unintentional/something he didn't realize. I mean it's one thing to attack Orson Scott Card's character since he actually does make his sentiments on LGBT issues quite clear and actively fights them even in his spare time, but someone like Ohba? Really? I know prejudice often runs beneath the surface and it might not be obvious but I dunno, I guess I just prefer to give the benefit of the doubt unless there's enough convincing evidence not to.

[Esau of Isaac]

Absolutely, I can understand why you wouldn't want to fund it. It's just I probably wouldn't care as long as I'm getting ballin' ass chicken sandwiches. I suppose if you bought and offered your cousin a chicken sandwich from Chick-Fil-A it would be the same, a principle thing. That's my own problem, I guess. Anyway, this is diverging from the point.

I also have a copy of Ender's Game even though I've never read it. Maybe if we send enough copies to your cousin they will eventually read it, right?

He will probably burn them all and publish the pictures on his tumblr.

I KNOW I'LL MAIL HIM A POPULAR LGBT AUTHOR'S BOOK BUT REALLY INSIDE THE COVER IT WILL BE ENDER'S GAME INGENIOUS

Awe my arguments didn't count? Well I'll be.

It's not that your arguments didn't count, or that they weren't sensible, it's that they're very general and really impossible to argue with. Either your argument is that racism and sexism are natural in humanity, in which case reflection is about as pointless as opining that we don't have gills to live underwater, or they aren't; in that case, it's still impossible to debate, because really you can take any form of contemporary media and point to perceived negative qualities as indication of this systemic problem. It would be incredibly frustrating to argue with, and since there's no way to conceivably objectively quantify and credibly link any of them it's doomed to end in going separate ways with nothing having come of it.

[jiodi]

It's not that your arguments didn't count, or that they weren't sensible, it's that they're very general and really impossible to argue with. Either your argument is that racism and sexism are natural in humanity, in which case reflection is about as pointless as opining that we don't have gills to live underwater, or they aren't; in that case, it's still impossible to debate, because really you can take any form of contemporary media and point to perceived negative qualities as indication of this systemic problem. It would be incredibly frustrating to argue with, and since there's no way to conceivably objectively quantify and credibly link any of them it's doomed to end in going separate ways with nothing having come of it.

Hrmm...that's a great point. I think I actually thought about that before responding again in that other thread and stopped myself. I have a bad habit of abstracting every god damn conversation out to its "deeper meaning and implications" even when that's not really the argument happening.

Anyways, carry on! hehe