Israel/Gaza (Round 3)

[Life]

I'm already regret signing in for this shit but I need a break from arguing with retards about it and want people who can formulate proper sentences.

So here we are in Round 3 since '05. A little bit of personal context for you guys is that I'm a civilian but the vast majority of my army buddies are not. Obviously I have a bias here but this will still be fun.

Thoughts?

Edited July 22, 2014 by Life

[jiodi]

It's a gigantic friggin mess. We have little-to-no actual factual information that hasn't been filtered through some party with an interest to spin the information.

Hamas needs to stop fucking firing rockets into Israel and Israel needs to really cut the shit. They're ruining their own world image at this point and causing a lot of people following it closely (or trying to, at least) to disassociate themselves with the cause or even outright call them out on their bullshit.

[Rehab]

I'm assuming (the government of) Israel probably isn't too keen on accepting the demands Hamas made for a ceasefire earlier this week?

[Life]

Here's Israel's major problem. They know that ceasefire agrements with Hamas aren't worth the paper that it's written on and yet, they still accept them.

There have been three ceasefires... wait, that's wrong. Israel has ceased fiting three times in the past two weeks. Hamas has not. Tel Aviv nearly took a rocket an hour into the second one. The boom sounded as if it was two blocks away from my apartment.

I think that the Knesset might just be pants on head retarded. The only real ceasefire will come when Hamas sues for peace but that's pretty much not going to happen until they run out of rockets.

EDIT: The name Bar Rahav means nothing to you. But he drafted with me to Handasa Kravit (Combat Engineering Corps) in March '12 and was killed a few days ago. I didn't know him but a lot of my friends did.

This war is real. People are dying and on both sides. No loss is too small or too insignificant. I just hope my friends make it back alive.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Life

[Skynstein]

This war is real. People are dying and on both sides. No loss is too small or too insignificant. I just hope my friends make it back alive.

On the ratio of 100 Palestinians per 1 Israeli. Hamas rockets don't do shit while Israel comes in with state-of-the-art equipment and massacres the civilians they claim to avoid.

[Celice]

On the ratio of 100 Palestinians per 1 Israeli. Hamas rockets don't do shit while Israel comes in with state-of-the-art equipment and massacres the civilians they claim to avoid.

I heard a civilian point out that if Iron Dome weren't so effective, it'd be mass casualties on both sides. It's not as if only one side has been attacking the other exclusively.

[eclipse]

I'm sorry for your loss, Life.

It would be really nifty if the ceasefire held. Right now, I think the losers of this battle are the civilians who have to deal with the rockets, not the ones firing them. If not for the sake of honoring an agreement, can't this nonsense cease for the sake of the people?

[Life]

On the ratio of 100 Palestinians per 1 Israeli. Hamas rockets don't do shit while Israel comes in with state-of-the-art equipment and massacres the civilians they claim to avoid.

Two things that need to be pointed out.

1. The Iron Dome. Are you actually suggesting that Israel is in the wrong for designing and maintaining a never before seen defensive tool against Hamas rockets? Is it unfair that Israel has a way to stop most of the rockets from Gaza?

2. Israel has moved ahead with a ground invasion that involves nearly 40,000 soldiers and there have ONLY been 600 deaths in Gaza in two weeks. Never mind the fact that Hamas claims those deaths to be only civilian (the majority are actually Hamas members and their immediate families).

For one of the strongest armies in the world, they're pretty terrible at killing people... unless they're not trying to.

There is no "genocide" or "massacre" here. Far from it.

I'm sorry for your loss, Life.

It would be really nifty if the ceasefire held. Right now, I think the losers of this battle are the civilians who have to deal with the rockets, not the ones firing them. If not for the sake of honoring an agreement, can't this nonsense cease for the sake of the people?

There's a famous quote by former Israeli PM Golda Meir.

"Peace will come when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate Israel."

At this point, a lot of the world (forget the Western world, Egypt just went on record to support the Israeli operation) is starting to realize that Hamas aren't in this for land or anything like that. They just want dead Israelis.

Look at the riots in France. We almost had Kristalnacht version 2.0 last week. That's scary as shit.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Nightmare

[Magical CC]

I'm sorry for your loss, Life.

It would be really nifty if the ceasefire held. Right now, I think the losers of this battle are the civilians who have to deal with the rockets, not the ones firing them. If not for the sake of honoring an agreement, can't this nonsense cease for the sake of the people?

You are asking too much from the Hamas. They are not the only force who wants some Jew blood. Even if Hamas accepts the cease fire treaty, the others will still fire rocket and other stuff at Isreal. I mean, the whole Arab world is a big mess. The ISIL incident told us how messed up they are. They cant even love their own brother. I wonder why it has come to this. It's a mistery to me. At first, in the ancient time, the muslim religion was so nice and the Arab world used to be the best place on Earth.

[Rehab]

Yeah, I've heard that there's a relative lot of violent anti-semitism to go around in France lately (having one of the larger Jewish populations in Europe apparently? and also a large Muslim/Arab population? though they're not unaffected by xenophobia themselves there). And that "downwards-heil" gesture some comedian came up with there, and which some people are actually doing shamelessly at protests, is frankly disgusting.

But I've also heard that the recent Egyptian elect al-Sisi likely hates Hamas more than Netanyahu does, and has given reason to believe he wants them dead and gone. Whereas Netanyahu's corner supposedly wants Hamas to stay in power "with its nose an inch above the water," lest an even more extremist group (say, with ties to Al-Qaeda?) fill the void. And along with the deaths, there have been well over 1,000 Palestinian civilians injured. (The last estimate I heard for the death toll only half a week ago ago was "just" 300.)

Further, whether it's reasonable for Israel to stay the course or not, I've heard that Gazans are fucking pissed that the blockade of Gaza and crossings into Egypt and Israel haven't been opened since the last big Israeli attempt to stop the rockets in November 2012. So I heard, they feel shut in an open-air prison, and enough of them say the rockets are the only way they can "protest" to keep doing it, despite knowing Israel will punish them for it (though they might have been making IEDs out of ramshackle materials for so long that they're running out?). They think Netanyahu's done everything to thwart the Palestinian government from functioning, like by preventing him from reasserting authority over Gaza and from paying off Hamas civil servants there. They're also pissed that Israeli forces rounded up over 500 Hamas people in response to the murder of the 3 Israeli students last month. (fuck the response that whoever-that-Hamas-representative-was gave that the killers were "doing God's work," though)

Meanwhile, supposedly half of Gazans aren't getting regular paid work, their electricity functioned badly even before the latest bombs, and their access to running water is bad and getting worse (like, 20% don't have access or something) since their sewage/water systems were damaged in January. And if Israel actually annexed the strip, bringing those people under Israeli rule, (which I was frankly surprised was an actual thing that some people are seriously lobbying for,) the demographic balance in Israel itself and the Palestinian territories under occupation would tip against the combined Jewish inhabitants there. Just, talk about asking for trouble at every turn.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Rehab

[Wander]

I'm not going to pretend to have full knowledge of whatever the hell is going on over there. And shit like this is part of the reason I hate religion (no offense, but it really does cause way too many wars).

I will say, though, that if the US were getting rocketed by a foreign country I wouldn't want our government to sit around and not retaliate. I don't care how good our defense system would be in this hypothetical, I'd still want us to do something about.

It's perfectly possible that Israel is taking more lives than they absolutely need to to defend themselves, though. I really don't think anybody knows, besides the countries directly involved and you know both will put their spin on it. Hopefully a ceasefire can be agreed to, what with Hamas running out of rockets soon enough and Israel looking increasingly bad, even to their allies.

I think everyone on both sides can agree that the deaths are tragic and we should keep them and their families in our thoughts, though.

[Celice]

I'm not going to pretend to have full knowledge of whatever the hell is going on over there. And shit like this is part of the reason I hate religion (no offense, but it really does cause way too many wars).

I will say, though, that if the US were getting rocketed by a foreign country I wouldn't want our government to sit around and not retaliate. I don't care how good our defense system would be in this hypothetical, I'd still want us to do something about.

Like this?

[Wander]

Like this?

Basically. I know the Israelis are killing a lot more Palestinians than the rockets are doing damage, but it's hardly their fault for having an effective defense system. Without the iron dome, who knows how many civilian casualties there could be?

Ideally, a ceasefire could be negotiated, but until such time they have to retaliate in some form. I guess you could argue that Hamas would stop attacking if Israel did, but I was under the impression Hamas was the one that started firing first.

One of the things I do wonder is if the citizens of Gaza have anywhere to escape to. Maybe Egypt? Israel may be offering them escape routes but it'd hardly be a wise idea to use them and enter a country that is essentially at war with you.

[Life]

I want to just toss out a comment about Bibi.

Look. The guy obviously doesn't eant rockets fired at his country. But Bibi loves being PM. And while Hamas is in power, Bibi is (unfortunately) Israel's best choice for being a PM who understands war. I mean, Naftali Bennett pretty much wants Gaza razed to the ground, for example.

Talking about Bibi and his own wants is an entire can of worms and one I won't touch because I don't know enough to offer a better solution (not even Yair Lapid and I voted for Lapid) and I'm also holding back a bit of bile.

Phone double post. Nightmare, do me the honours.

I'm now going off topic to another thing. ISIS. For those who have no idea what ISIS is, it stands for Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. AKA another terrorist cell.

The amount of deaths in Syria has been staggering. We're talking over 100,000 in the last two years. So why the fuck are people up in arms about Israel when their northern neighbour has a legitimate genocide going on?

I think I know the answer but this still bothers the fuck out of me.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Nightmare

[euklyd]

I want to just toss out a comment about Bibi.

Look. The guy obviously doesn't eant rockets fired at his country. But Bibi loves being PM. And while Hamas is in power, Bibi is (unfortunately) Israel's best choice for being a PM who understands war. I mean, Naftali Bennett pretty much wants Gaza razed to the ground, for example.

Talking about Bibi and his own wants is an entire can of worms and one I won't touch because I don't know enough to offer a better solution (not even Yair Lapid and I voted for Lapid) and I'm also holding back a bit of bile.

I feel like a) you can't really separate the whole "the establishment thrives on conflict" from the ongoing crisis and b) from my understanding Bibi isn't the only one who benefits from the status quo.

The unfortunate issue for both sides is that the current state of affairs is more palatable than the process of getting to better solution; the Israeli electorate wants things that are not going to guarantee stability and a lasting peace, and Hamas can't capitulate to demands without something to show for it (which the Israelis have a reasonable belief that won't help) without risking a strong challenge from a group that isn't ~soft on the oppressors~ (or at the very least losing hella public support).

To be honest, I'm rather more annoyed by Israel in this situation, because they have things (power, wealth, technology, allies) and still choose a path that exacerbates problems. Hamas does terrible things as well, but they don't exactly have anywhere near the same volume of "things" as Israel.

[Magical CC]

To be honest, I'm rather more annoyed by Israel in this situation, because they have things (power, wealth, technology, allies) and still choose a path that exacerbates problems. Hamas does terrible things as well, but they don't exactly have anywhere near the same volume of "things" as Israel.

You dont understand. Power, wealth, technology are all traded by blood, from both the Jew and the Muslim. If you think the Israel has these things from the beginning then you are wrong. When all of your neighbors just want to kill you and burn your house. Negotiating is pointless. There is no better solution. Things are going as Israel want them to be, there's no need for Israel to change their politic. And for the Muslim in general and Hamas in this case, there's nothing they and the other groups can do unless they change their politic...which is unbelievable at this point.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Char

[Nightmare]

You dont understand. Power, wealth, technology are all traded by blood, from both the Jew and the Muslim. If you think the Israel has these things from the beginning then you are wrong. When all of your neighbors just want to kill you and burn your house. Negotiating is pointless. There is no better solution. Things are going as Israel want them to be, there's no need for Israel to change their politic. And for the Muslim in general and Hamas in this case, there's nothing they and the other groups can do unless they change their politic...which is unbelievable at this point.

Why does that have any bearing on anything? We are talking about the here and the now, and the reality is that the IDF has committed war crimes, that Israel pretty much fits the definition of an apartheid regime, and that they are not budging when everything can end on much better terms for both them and the Palestinians if they did. That's why all their neighbours want to "kill them and burn their house" as you put it. Israel is not the oppressed here, stop acting like they are. They started out with enormous support, and they're continuing to thrive on even more support. Not to say Hamas are the good guys either, because they certainly aren't, but if you think that a regime's harmful practices should not be stopped or changed, then your views are skewed and anti-humanitarianism, and possibly Islamophobic judging by the comments you've made about Muslims in this thread.

[jiodi]

Why does that have any bearing on anything? We are talking about the here and the now, and the reality is that the IDF has committed war crimes, that Israel pretty much fits the definition of an apartheid regime, and that they are not budging when everything can end on much better terms for both them and the Palestinians if they did. That's why all their neighbours want to "kill them and burn their house" as you put it. Israel is not the oppressed here, stop acting like they are. They started out with enormous support, and they're continuing to thrive on even more support. Not to say Hamas are the good guys either, because they certainly aren't, but if you think that a regime's harmful practices should not be stopped or changed, then your views are skewed and anti-humanitarianism, and possibly Islamophobic judging by the comments you've made about Muslims in this thread.

If only there was some kind of "Like" functionality on here. I'd give you a whole bag of them. Couldn't have said it better, myself.

[Rehab]

I want to just toss out a comment about Bibi.

Look. The guy obviously doesn't eant rockets fired at his country. But Bibi loves being PM. And while Hamas is in power, Bibi is (unfortunately) Israel's best choice for being a PM who understands war. I mean, Naftali Bennett pretty much wants Gaza razed to the ground, for example.

Talking about Bibi and his own wants is an entire can of worms and one I won't touch because I don't know enough to offer a better solution (not even Yair Lapid and I voted for Lapid) and I'm also holding back a bit of bile.

Phone double post. Nightmare, do me the honours.

I'm now going off topic to another thing. ISIS. For those who have no idea what ISIS is, it stands for Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. AKA another terrorist cell.

The amount of deaths in Syria has been staggering. We're talking over 100,000 in the last two years. So why the fuck are people up in arms about Israel when their northern neighbour has a legitimate genocide going on?

I think I know the answer but this still bothers the fuck out of me.

Oh, I'm definitely still mad about Syria, personally. Its people have gotten a staggeringly bad deal. Set of deals. Whatever. I'm chicken to even check in on it.

Is Israel also directly threatened by ISIS?

[Magical CC]

Why does that have any bearing on anything? We are talking about the here and the now, and the reality is that the IDF has committed war crimes, that Israel pretty much fits the definition of an apartheid regime, and that they are not budging when everything can end on much better terms for both them and the Palestinians if they did. That's why all their neighbours want to "kill them and burn their house" as you put it. Israel is not the oppressed here, stop acting like they are. They started out with enormous support, and they're continuing to thrive on even more support. Not to say Hamas are the good guys either, because they certainly aren't, but if you think that a regime's harmful practices should not be stopped or changed, then your views are skewed and anti-humanitarianism, and possibly Islamophobic judging by the comments you've made about Muslims in this thread.

First of, let me sorry if I made you thought that I am an Islamophobic. Really, I have nothing against them. But when did I said Israel was better than Hamas? I was merely stating that Israel is doing it right while Hamas is doing it wrong. I dont understand how come everything can end on much better for Israel if they change their politic and I will never able to understand why should they care for the Palestine. I mean, we all know that Israel's ultimate goal is not making peace. Maybe Israel people want peace but certainly not Israel's gorvernment. The current event is just Israel wanna rush their goal before things go out of their hand. Things were mostly going just as planned for the Israel, there's no reason for them to stop. While it's true that IDF has committed war crime, nobody will raise an eyebrow, I can bet on that.

Although, I have to say that the Arab world is pretty bad when it come to fighting.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Char

[euklyd]

Things were mostly going just as planned for the Israel, there's no reason for them to stop.

If you honestly believe that there’s no issue with the systematic, government-sanctioned theft of a people’s homeland, in contravention to all international law, as well as the mass punishment of an entire region through a blockade that denies them even basic necessities, along with a longstanding policy of economic and political repression of an entire nation, then I’m not sure sure there’s much point in trying to have a discussion with you.

Also there’s that whole “willing murder of civilian non-combatants,” also known as “war crimes” thing, but that’s probably not going to matter to you either.

If I'm misinterpreting your post then by all means, correct me.

[Naughx]

-

But at the same time it's one of the rare allied nations the West has in that region.

---

I'm not going to take a side because two wrongs doesn't make it right.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Naughx

[euklyd]

But at the same time it's one of the rare allied nations the West has in that region.

---

I'm not going to take a side because two wrongs doesn't make it a good.

The fact that it's a !!close Western ally!! and a !!democracy!! means they should have higher expectations, not lower, imo.

As an analogy, I am not above criticizing my friends when they fuck up, and in fact do have higher expectations of them.

And you're definitely allowed to criticize both sides in a conflict such as this; I would argue that doing so is in fact the correct position to take. "I think both sides are wrong so I won't say anything" is a bad way to look at things.

[Magical CC]

If you honestly believe that there’s no issue with the systematic, government-sanctioned theft of a people’s homeland, in contravention to all international law, as well as the mass punishment of an entire region through a blockade that denies them even basic necessities, along with a longstanding policy of economic and political repression of an entire nation, then I’m not sure sure there’s much point in trying to have a discussion with you.

Also there’s that whole “willing murder of civilian non-combatants,” also known as “war crimes” thing, but that’s probably not going to matter to you either.

If I'm misinterpreting your post then by all means, correct me.

Of course! This is not medieval age when taking a land is an easy task. In this age, if you want to take someone's land, you have to pay a huge price. The Israel knew it and accepted it. Please take a look at Israel's economy, I failed to see what is wrong. May be you can? Contravention to international law stuff is lame, as I said. International law is non-existed, there's nothing the Israel has to worry about. And the mass punishment of an entire region is kinda dire...but not. There's nothing Israel can do (except the stuff in Palestine). Just tell me what should Israel do about the stuff that's happening in Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and Egypt? All of these messes where made by their own country....or, by a certain big bad in the western world. Oh, now that we mention it, it's the Arab countries that started the whole conflict, since 1948. Most of the wars of between the Arab and the Israel were started by the Arab side.

And yo! I have never seen a conflict in which civilians are safe from damage. Especially, any post WWII war America take part in. Korea, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq. You should stop being so naive about politic. It's the power that rules.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Char

[jiodi]

The fact that it's a !!close Western ally!! and a !!democracy!! means they should have higher expectations, not lower, imo.

As an analogy, I am not above criticizing my friends when they fuck up, and in fact do have higher expectations of them.

And you're definitely allowed to criticize both sides in a conflict such as this; I would argue that doing so is in fact the correct position to take. "I think both sides are wrong so I won't say anything" is a bad way to look at things.

I'm seriously bothered by this, too. If we truly are ramping up for some serious global world war conditions and we're on Israels side, we may be on the wrong side of history.