Scottish Independence Referendum

[Tryhard]

Probably indulging in a bit of selfishness here considering I am Scottish, but it seems to be a fairly popular topic on social media right now. Trending on twitter, at least. I figured general was a good enough place to have it instead of serious discussion, but I could be wrong.

There is to be a referendum for the Scottish people to decide to seperate from the rest of the United Kingdom on the 18th September.

There was a debate between Alex Salmond, the leader of the party calling for this referendum, and Alastair Darling, English labour politician. Judging from this poll, the majority of Scots seem to agree that Salmond won this debate. Then again that may be more due to how uncharismatic Darling is.

Personally have mixed feelings on it. While I would prefer an independent Scotland, I do dislike Alex Salmond... he always seemed overly nationalistic to me and can be boorish, I dislike some of the policies of the SNP (Scottish National Party) from what I know. Wouldn't like to call myself a nationalist, though I am fond of my country (patriotic, I guess). I'm also no economist - I have no idea if Scotland will be stable under a seperate economy - while I have heard that Scotland is a rich country and would be able to survive on its own from certain claims but they could be heavily biased and I definitely don't want it going the route of the Republic of Ireland. I'm happy with the socialized healthcare and tuition fees that we currently have for Scottish citizens, so I definitely just want the best for my country, not for it to decline. I should note that usually I don't pay that much attention to politics, but this is one of those occasions where it's pretty much being talked about a lot in here and even outside the UK. I'll probably be voting 'yes' for independence, if only to take the chance while it is still around, but I do have mixed feelings about it.

That said, I am unaware of the current chances of this becoming a reality.

Was just making this topic to find if anyone had any opinions on it, informed or not.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Tryhard

[Naughx]

I'm neutral about this... People will make a choice and democracy will win in the end.

[NinjaMonkey]

As an Englishman, I'm quite happy for Scottish independence, seeing as the English taxpayer will no longer have to pay for the university tuition of Scottish people. Also, it would mean that those forty or so Labour MP's who have their seats in Scottish constituencies, will no longer be allowed to vote on issues that only concern England.

[Irysa]

Scotland could become a better country if it was independant, but there is zero reason to trust the SNP in running things any more than Westminister does. Not to mention the rest of the UK would suffer terribly because the Tories would never be out of power, and they'll never redraw the constituencies that don't favor them. On a global scale, the UK also loses even more significance in an age where it's dwindling.

If you only care about Scotland, Yes is a gambit that has potential for success or horrible failure, and if that doesn't put you off obviously nobody's shaking your opinion on it.

But despite being a Scot, I'm also a Brit, and on the whole I do think WE are better together, not just Scotland.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Irysa

[Nobody]

This is kind of off topic, but what would happen to the name of the UK? Would it become the "United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland", or would it stay as the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" even thought not the entirety of the Great Britain would belong to it

This is something that has legitimately bugged me since I first heard about the possible Scottish independence.

Edited August 26, 2014 by NOBODY

[Sånıc Bÿm]

This is kind of off topic, but what would happen to the name of the UK? Would it become the "United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland", or would it stay as the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" even thought not the entirety of the Great Britain would belong to it

I'm also wondering whether the UK's flag would remain the same or change if Scotland becomes independent.

[Tryhard]

This is kind of off topic, but what would happen to the name of the UK? Would it become the "United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland", or would it stay as the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" even thought not the entirety of the Great Britain would belong to it

This is something that has legitimately bugged me since I first heard about the possible Scottish independence.

You know, I never thought of that, haha. Yeah, it would probably not be called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland anymore because Great Britain consists of England, Wales and Scotland and it would be rather strange if Scotland has left. So I would say the former if it was to make sense but maybe the latter because they couldn't be bothered/didn't want to change it.

Then again, no-one really calls it by its full name usually.

Scotland could become a better country if it was independant, but there is zero reason to trust the SNP in running things any more than Westminister does. Not to mention the rest of the UK would suffer terribly because the Tories would never be out of power, and they'll never redraw the constituencies that don't favor them. On a global scale, the UK also loses even more significance in an age where it's dwindling.

If you only care about Scotland, Yes is a gambit that has potential for success or horrible failure, and if that doesn't put you off obviously nobody's shaking your opinion on it.

But despite being a Scot, I'm also a Brit, and on the whole I do think WE are better together, not just Scotland.

It is a shame that England is generally conservative - I disagree heavily with the Tories, but I can see what you mean with the SNP really having no reason to being better but there are some tempting things that are being put on the table - whether they are actually implemented is a different matter. If nothing else the fact that it will affect the rest of the UK negatively bothers me a little, as I don't want to be completely selfish and I don't dislike English people, but we have such a clash with their politics that I personally think that we would be better off seperated, especially with some English also thinking that they should be rid of Scotland too. You obviously think differently, that's fine.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Tryhard

[Haku]

I live in England and I watched the debate. Politics is something that frustrates me, since I'm an anarchist, but I'm totally pro-Scottish independence. It's what majority of the Scottish population seem to want, so why not give it to them? The only question up in the air for me is will Scotland's economy suffer as a result when it changes it's currency to the euro :/

[Tryhard]

I live in England and I watched the debate. Politics is something that frustrates me, since I'm an anarchist, but I'm totally pro-Scottish independence. It's what majority of the Scottish population seem to want, so why not give it to them? The only question up in the air for me is will Scotland's economy suffer as a result when it changes it's currency to the euro :/

Supposedly they might be able to keep the pound anyway. Link

I don't know how likely it is, but Salmond himself wants to keep the pound as the currency if possible through the Bank of England.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Tryhard

[Naughx]

But... Would an independant Scotland be part of the European Union?

[Tryhard]

But... Would an independant Scotland be part of the European Union?

Yes.

Edit: Or at least that's the consensus I've heard on it.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Tryhard

[NinjaMonkey]

Not to mention the rest of the UK would suffer terribly because the Tories would never be out of power

That's nothing but pure speculation, by someone who clearly knows nothing about politics.

[Irysa]

That's nothing but pure speculation, by someone who clearly knows nothing about politics.

Oh please. Have you seen the last redraws by the Tory party? Totally biased to secure more seats. Look at past elections and look at how biased towards Tory England is on the whole! Half of the reason there's been such a strong dissent over the years is because Scotland leans left. Scotland has consistently been a difference maker in securing Labour seats in Westminister for years, if you removed all those seats then there are numerous instances of Labour simply not securing a Majority vote.

Look at how England is leaning towards UKIP in recent history if you don't believe me! England is a Right Winged country. If Scotland leaves the UK, the Tories and UKIP will make a coalition Government, this has been stated as a real possibility by Conversative Ministers. Think about that, a UKIP Coalition! The same bampots who spout homophobic and racist rhetoric as party policy on national television!

It's what majority of the Scottish population seem to want, so why not give it to them? The only question up in the air for me is will Scotland's economy suffer as a result when it changes it's currency to the euro :/

Actually the majority according to all recent polls vote are in favor of the No vote, not the Yes vote.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Irysa

[Tryhard]

Actually the majority according to all recent polls vote are in favor of the No vote, not the Yes vote.

Yeah, this seems to be true. I have no idea what the final results are going to be, but if it turns out that 'No' is in the majority, then oh well, the majority didn't want it and I put my vote in for better or for worse.

Do you see it as a possibility (at least a decent one) despite this?

Edited August 26, 2014 by Tryhard

[Irysa]

Undecided voters are definitely enough to swing the vote around. I'm of the opinion that they will lean towards No because there's no going back from a Yes vote, wheras opting to stay part of the UK leaves a lot of options open, which leans itself better towards indecision.

If Darling blows the final debate as hard as he did this one then who knows though, he came out ahead in the first one but Salmond didn't waste his time talking about aliens and if-an-independant-scotland-would-have-to-drive-on-the-other-side-of-the-road this time.

EDIT: Derp, there's apparently not a third one nevermind.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Irysa

[Tryhard]

Haha I was scrambling to see if I was wrong because I thought there wasn't another one AFAIK.

I do think it's rather funny that conservatives/Tories in England would be glad to see the departure of Scotland since the left-leaning tendencies, but if there was truly a UKIP coalition to come out of it like you said, I think they would stop their tune relatively fast. Well, at least the ones not already associated with them. The one thing that I think is unfortunately consistent is that Scotland was never really appreciated through profits and contributions they made to the UK. (McCrone report etc)

Though I was a little surprised to see someone else Scottish on SF, thought I was the only one, haha.

[Psych]

I know nothing about Britain but I imagine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3tUqRBiMVo&feature=player_detailpage#t=180

Edited August 26, 2014 by Psych

[Parrhesia]

As an Australian with no stake in the matter, I casually support a yes vote - I'm just glad it did come down to a referendum. I've been casually paying attention to the campaign, though, and the campaigners against independence seem... really patronising. Like a bunch of English politicians being like "No, my children, don't leave the nest ;.;"

That said I do hope, if independence comes to pass, that it doesn't fuck up the United Kingdom's political landscape.

[Wist]

I agree with Naughx. Political and economic ramifications aside (whatever they may be), I believe what's most important is that this decision will be made by the people.

Though if the result is "No", I admit I'll be a little (selfishly) disappointed at not being able to see how Scottish independence would have unfolded.

[Raven]

I'm curious how Scotland would keep itself relevant and afloat were it to leave the UK.

I read somewhere that it would have to re-apply to join the European Union should it become independent, but I may be wrong on that.

Much like if Wales were to become independent, I'd imagine they too would end up in shit creek without a paddle.

[Tryhard]

I've been casually paying attention to the campaign, though, and the campaigners against independence seem... really patronising. Like a bunch of English politicians being like "No, my children, don't leave the nest ;.;"

I laughed when David "Airbrushed for Change" Cameron pretty much had this view.

[Julius Nepos]

I don't know much about this matter, but politics always interest me, so I'll share whatever likely controversial thoughts I have.

First: is this an advisory referendum or will the outcome of the referendum directly decide the issue?

I am usually against independence, especially of this kind. A conquered country asking for independence is one thing, but a constituent country of a union is different. "United we are stronger" is a principle that plays a role. Moreover, I feel that our goals should be to become closer, not grow more apart, especially now that we actually have the opportunity to grow closer. So principally independence movements (as well as anti-EU movements for that matter) do not have my support.

But there's principally and there's practically. If practically Scottish independence would be beneficial in the long run (long run is what matters, not short run), it's something worth considering. However, it's already difficult to predict whether it will be beneficial in the short run, so any predictions for the long run are very likely to be nothing but speculation.

There's one thing I can say about the long run, though. This tendency of growing apart fits the cycles of history. And I believe the cycles of history should be broken. The cycles of history perpetuate communities cycling between periods of welfare and antiwelfare. We should seek to break the cycles and bring about permanent welfare. I am fully aware that human nature renders this impossible, but it's a good goal to strive towards.

Why can't I not make long posts?

[Tryhard]

I don't know much about this matter, but politics always interest me, so I'll share whatever likely controversial thoughts I have.

First: is this an advisory referendum or will the outcome of the referendum directly decide the issue?

I am usually against independence, especially of this kind. A conquered country asking for independence is one thing, but a constituent country of a union is different. "United we are stronger" is a principle that plays a role. Moreover, I feel that our goals should be to become closer, not grow more apart, especially now that we actually have the opportunity to grow closer. So principally independence movements (as well as anti-EU movements for that matter) do not have my support.

But there's principally and there's practically. If practically Scottish independence would be beneficial in the long run (long run is what matters, not short run), it's something worth considering. However, it's already difficult to predict whether it will be beneficial in the short run, so any predictions for the long run are very likely to be nothing but speculation.

There's one thing I can say about the long run, though. This tendency of growing apart fits the cycles of history. And I believe the cycles of history should be broken. The cycles of history perpetuate communities cycling between periods of welfare and antiwelfare. We should seek to break the cycles and bring about permanent welfare. I am fully aware that human nature renders this impossible, but it's a good goal to strive towards.

As far as I know this will directly decide the issue.

Scotland has been a part of the union since 1707, but it should be noted that one of the only reasons this ever happened was due to mass bribes and corruption that swayed people in positions of power in Scotland in order to unite. While it was never strictly conquered, it has held a tenuous union with the rest of the United Kingdom for many years. Since Britain became somewhat of a superpower after some time, the call for devolution didn't pick up much steam until 1979, where the McCrone Report said that it predicted that North Sea oil revenue would give an independent Scotland a large tax surplus, on such a scale as to be "embarrassing", making the country "as rich as Switzerland.". Since then, it has been noted that any profits from this have been unfairly taken by the rest of the UK. I should note that the North Sea oil is now much less important than it was, but it still could be seen as an important sustenance should Scotland decide to go indepedent. Eventually there was a Scottish parliament that was introduced in 1999, and afterwards there is quite a few more calling for complete independence of the country. There has been more than a little unfounded animosity from both sides between the years through conflicts, political, economic and social differences, unfortunately. There is also a stark difference between us, even if we would call ourselves "British". England, Wales and Northern Ireland are great countries - but I see them simply as different countries. I don't think staying together is in our best interests, but of course, that's the whole issue and it will be decided. While in my ideal world I would like everyone to get along united and prosperous, but that seems to be something far away for me.

Many of those who would support independence do not think we've got a fair deal from being in the union, and so are seeking to now leave. They don't want to be associated with fighting UK wars anymore, and want cutting back of the military and nuclear weapons. Though people say that it could bring horrible change to Scotland, the possibility of staying in the union could also bring unwanted change as many see the decline under Tory government.

I'd like not to be known as a flag-waving nationalist idiot who hates English people like some of those calling for independence, so I hope my reasoning is at least understandable.

Edit: I should note that to everyone who is outside the UK it may have been sort of portrayed like Scotland breaking away from their English overlords or something. This isn't Braveheart, and I'm well aware that this is an issue in the grey-area, no doubt.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Tryhard

[Julius Nepos]

Your reasoning is very understandable. I've always had a bit of a problem with the reasoning "we should do what is best for us" though. Because who are "we" really? The group "we" is only as big as we make it out to be. Why should I as an inhabitant of the country I live in do what is best for the country I live in, and why should I not as an inhabitant of the province I live in do what is best for my province, or as an inhabitant of the town I live in do what is best for my town? And why should I as an inhabitant of Europe not do what is best for Europe? So "we doing what is best for us" is more a matter of mindset (who do we define as "we") than a matter of we doing what is best for us. I always try to look at things on an as grand as possible scale and as objectively as possible.

There's nothing wrong with nationalism though, whatever you define as your nation. In fact, I believe there should be much more nationalism (at least where I live), as long as it remains second to rationalism.

[Raven]

If Scotland has a way of self-sustaining after becoming independent, then I'd say it's worth it just to never have anything to do with the Conservatives again.

The only real problem is that Scotland also houses many Labour MPs. If Scotland leaves, the Tories will have power in England, Wales and N.Ireland indefinitely. Fanfuckingtastic.