Did you turn your avatar into a full blown OC?

[Anacybele]

Actually, there's a male term too. Gary Stu. :P

Also, if there IS a real reason I make OCs, it's to add depth, whether that depth is for the story or other characters.

This advice assumes you want others to enjoy your work. If you don't really care about that, and are writing primarily for yourself? Go wild, do whatever. But if you want other people to be invested... one of the things that makes characters seem more organic and real is that they aren't the star of every show. If a character is at the center of every struggle and adored, praised, or otherwise noted to be of great value and importance at every turn, the reader has difficulty relating to their struggles. The world doesn't warp to present us with opportunities and strange events at every turn in our lives, and when this happens to a character, it hurts the reader's suspension of disbelief. It becomes harder for the reader to say "I identify with this character! I see the validity of their struggles, am invested in what happens, and actually feel things about this characters personality" (and yes, if the readership hates your villains from an emotionally invested perspective, that's a good thing!).

I know all of this? But hardly anyone blatantly praised Frederick and Kelli. They just recognize them as a well-known couple that just got married. For all we know, they don't really give a damn about them. But who in Ylisse WOULDN'T respect two warriors that played a big role in saving the country from Plegia?

I will admit to there being some praise in the latest part of Happy Together, some females that love Frederick. But they're just a small group of females out of a HUGE audience. And no one even mentioned Kelli. And Ralph looks up to Frederick as a brother figure, why wouldn't he praise him?

Oh yes, before I forget about Frederick's parents, why wouldn't they be proud of him and want to praise him too?

Like I said, the reason I create these characters is adding depth. And depth is good.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Anacybele

[Refa]

I'd take the OC thing more seriously if it wasn't for the fact that Robin has a pretty distinct personality. In other words, I think it's impossible for me to do so, given the state of Awakening.

(otherwise, LUCINA would've taken over the world, with her mother-in-law's help)

Yeah, I'm actually the same way. Sure, I think the personality is bland as boring as all hell get out (with the exception of a few choice supports), but it's still THERE and feels wrong to just rewrite over.

(personally, I'd go with ROBIN killing Lucina, Chrom, AND Grima and pulling an Alvis to create the Holy Ylisse Empire or something to that effect)

(wait, does saying that make me a hypocrite?????)

[Terrador]

Actually, there's a male term too. Gary Stu. :P

Also, if there IS a real reason I make OCs, it's to add depth, whether that depth is for the story or other characters.

I know all of this? But hardly anyone blatantly praised Frederick and Kelli. They just recognize them as a well-known couple that just got married. For all we know, they don't really give a damn about them. But who in Ylisse WOULDN'T respect two warriors that played a big role in saving the country from Plegia?

I will admit to there being some praise in the latest part of Happy Together, some females that love Frederick. But they're just a small group of females out of a HUGE audience. And no one even mentioned Kelli. And Ralph looks up to Frederick as a brother figure, why wouldn't he praise him?

Oh yes, before I forget about Frederick's parents, why wouldn't they be proud of him and want to praise him too?

Like I said, the reason I create these characters is adding depth. And depth is good.

That doesn't introduce anything new, though. It doesn't add anything interesting. They're well-liked, they're celebrated, they have families! I can very confidently say that this doesn't make readers more interested, having heard many folks'... overwhelmingly positive reactions to it, in your writing specifically and elsewhere.

I seem to have forgotten a very fundamental question, though. What's the purpose of your writing? What kind of experience are you trying to give, or message are you trying to convey?

[Draco]

Correction. I did a page once. And I flinched.

Also, Ana, no offense, but your MU character has huge Mary Sue qualities that semi-self-inserts naturally suffer from. You create OCs just to praise her and Frederick. Changing one letter is akin to Sonic fandom OCs.

Ah. My mistake, then.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Draco

[Anacybele]

That doesn't introduce anything new, though. It doesn't add anything interesting. They're well-liked, they're celebrated, they have families! I can very confidently say that this doesn't make readers more interested, having heard many folks'... overwhelmingly positive reactions to it, in your writing specifically and elsewhere.

I seem to have forgotten a very fundamental question, though. What's the purpose of your writing? What kind of experience are you trying to give, or message are you trying to convey?

Sure it does. Ralph adds new stuff to Frederick's history, as do Frederick's parents. Phantom and Cristina add new stuff to Kelli's (well, in the next story I have planned for these characters).

I said earlier why I write fanfiction. So I can practice skills for original stuff later.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Anacybele

[Terrador]

Sure it does. Ralph adds new stuff to Frederick's history, as do Frederick's parents. Phantom and Cristina add new stuff to Kelli's (well, in the next story I have planned for these characters).

I said earlier why I write fanfiction. So I can practice skills for original stuff later.

...ah, nevermind. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, I suppose.

Have a nice day, eh?

[Anacybele]

I don't know what you mean by that phrase, but if I'm still not understanding you properly, I apologize. I want to improve my writing in any way I can. Maybe I've just grown too used to people telling me I make good characters and plots (people from multiple sites too), but if I still need a bit of work, just tell me!

Although, I'm afraid that I can't take EVERY suggestion given to me. I mean, I've had some people suggest one thing and then others say I should do something entirely different and conflicting. So...yeah. xP

Edited August 31, 2014 by Anacybele

[Terrador]

I don't know what you mean by that phrase, but if I'm still not understanding you properly, I apologize. I want to improve my writing in any way I can. Maybe I've just grown too used to people telling me I make good characters and plots (people from multiple sites too), but if I still need a bit of work, just tell me!

Although, I'm afraid that I can't take EVERY suggestion given to me. I mean, I've had some people suggest one thing and then others say I should do something entirely different and conflicting. So...yeah. xP

...actually, I have an idea that could really improve your work.

Practice writing characters that, from an in-character perspective, really aren't that special, important, or skilled. That could help you discover some ways to characterize and flesh out characters that, today, seem absent or underdeveloped.

[eclipse]

Robin is a main character of the game. Pretty hard not to create an OC that's a Mary Sue.

Anyway, I don't take Mary Sue term seriously. I even find it sexist, because it was attributed to female characters originally. You know who else is a Mary Sue? Superman. James Bond. And people don't care...

I think the only distinct personality trait he/she has is that he/she is a gifted tactician.

Robin has some empathy (Sumia/Robin C), likes to analyze people and shove them into comfy containers (Robin/Priam B), not overly full of themselves (Robin/Noire B), and will go out of their way to make someone happy (Robin/Cherche B is one example). Thus, I can't overlay a Robin who's oblivious to other people's needs and learns how to respond to them, as an example. Robin doesn't have a lot of personality, but for someone like me, it's way too much. FE11, IMO, had about the right amount of personality for me to work with (a single death quote gives me just enough insight into their character so that I can write something, but doesn't set it in stone).

Sure it does. Ralph adds new stuff to Frederick's history, as do Frederick's parents. Phantom and Cristina add new stuff to Kelli's (well, in the next story I have planned for these characters).

I said earlier why I write fanfiction. So I can practice skills for original stuff later.

If you ever want advice, and are WILLING to change your writing (as in, how you portray characters, etc.) based on said advice, let me know.

[Ownagepuffs]

Dang nabbit guys now you are making me want to make and OC.

[Thor Odinson]

im still too lazy to make personalities but here's some designs i did a while ago

[spoiler=Wyvern Lord, Great Knight, Hero, in that order]

battle panties/miniskirts suck so i gave her pants anyway

[shadowofchaos]

Dang nabbit guys now you are making me want to make and OC.

Zector. He is the hotheaded little brother of Kuther, the Marquess of Ustia in the Rycian Alliance in the continent of Eleb.

Some people like me, just want to watch the world burn.

In any case, I'm not going to dive into the storm I caused from one legit criticism, but I will say a little bit about it.

Instead, I'll mostly respond generally to this thread.

Original Characters, by nature, are bad ideas. That's the truth. In the most base form, that's what they start out as.

You refine them, through criticism of others as well as looking back at examples (such as real life people, history, etc.).

Until they turn out into something people can relate to.

When you're just writing for wish fulfillment and never listening to the "accepted" middle ground of criteria you put for yourself and what is believable to an audience, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Wish fulfillment writing is not bad. Hell I do it all the time. It is showing that and basically covering your ears and then yelling "Lalalala I'm not listening!" that most people do with MU/Avatar is what exploded as "standard practice" in the FE13 fandom.

99% of the self-inserts are bad. Unfortunately (and yes this one particular one paragraph is directed at you, Ana), most people think they are different from that said group. Your MU character is not even close to the potential it has, Ana. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner people will stop getting on your case every time you try to be enthusiastic about your own writing in discussions about OCs. It is fine to be proud of your accomplishments. It is fine to look back and say you have improved. Refusing to continue to do so just because you saw progress, is not.

People need to take a step back and see if their character development is progressing smoothly as it can be. Build upon it instead of just being satisfied at the "one" aspect of your story. You see this a lot with people shipping MU x Chrom because they always must focus on how lovey-dovey they are and how their love conquers all. Another thing with that is that they need to keep people in character and not shove the entire interpretation of that character as canon. (This is probably another shot at you, Ana... with Frederick's portrayal) OCs and how they interact with established characters are also a mine field because people are so invested in them. When someone criticizes something you worked hard on, and a character that may even be a part of you... well, I'd imagine you'd tend to respond a little hostile.

...Basically, I just am of a firm opinion that MU/Avatar lowers "standards" to what is acceptable to the level of development in a character. I mean the game doesn't really raise that bar that high SPECIFICALLY in order to appeal to self-inserts.

Edited August 31, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Dragoncat]

Okay that's your opinion and youre entitled to it. I love my OCs to death though...

[shadowofchaos]

Okay that's your opinion and youre entitled to it. I love my OCs to death though...

It doesn't even sound like a response that speaks "I see where you're coming from".

[Dragoncat]

My apologies. I disagree with the "OCs are a bad idea" bit. Seriously, let us have our fun...I know there are people who suck at making OCs, but that doesn't mean NOBODY should have them. I understand that not everybody enjoys the more creative side of the fandom, but a lot of people do and I really don't want this to turn into a flame war/arguement.

[Anacybele]

What Dragoncat said. People technically make OCs for their original stories too, as OC means "original character." So yeah.

[Ownagepuffs]

@ SoC my OC's name is Cigurd, he is Sigurd's half twin and also has Major Baldo and Major Naga and Major Holsety and can use all 3 weapons he is a bad guy because he likes the Lopts. Aw fuk that was painful to type.

But seriously, I may not do it often (only once in my life), but having an OC can be pretty fun. My OC was hella sue in retrospect (I was in middle school leave me alone) but hey live and learn. If I did have an FE13 OC I only know they would be a Bow Knight from Rosanne who served under Virion.

[shadowofchaos]

My apologies. I disagree with the "OCs are a bad idea" bit.

I meant that as like "at the basest form".

It's the same way Extra Credits described a game idea or a narrative developing into something better.

If you think about it, all creative game/narrative ideas are silly/bad from conception... and you make it work with refinement.

Edited August 31, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Etria]

I can't quite agree that original characters are always bad, because sometimes without them the FE world be quite empty. Even a food seller the canon characters walk past and chat with is an original character. Or a canon characters family, friends, etc.

Edit: Damn internet swallowed half of my text.

Anyway, main OCs do tend to be bad, but they're often the product of inexperienced or incompetent writers. Some also just don't care and want to have fun. If you find a fic like that, just close the tab. Nobody forces you to continue reading.

Also, if they prove to be resistant to helpful critcism or improvement, leave them be. They're either beyond hope or they don't care.

Edited August 31, 2014 by General Asthar

[solrocknroll]

I believe you have to walk the fine line between painfully boring and showstealer.

For example (not an Awakening example), a thief girl from a rural town. She makes due, but barely. Her name is Hikari. She meets a mercenary guy who works as her bodyguard. The two go on wacky adventures, but only in the background. They only get side-stories.

Actually, wait, that's a bad example. I should never write characters.

[Dragoncat]

Anyway, main OCs do tend to be bad, but they're often the product of inexperienced or incompetent writers. Some also just don't care and want to have fun. If you find a fic like that, just close the tab. Nobody forces you to continue reading.

Also, if they prove to be resistant to helpful critcism or improvement, leave them be. They're either beyond hope or they don't care.

This.

[shadowofchaos]

Some also just don't care and want to have fun. If you find a fic like that, just close the tab. Nobody forces you to continue reading.

Also, if they prove to be resistant to helpful critcism or improvement, leave them be. They're either beyond hope or they don't care.

My little beef with this statement is when people like that bring up their own said kind of fic for shameless plugging to show their own example in unrelated threads, and then turn hostile when the shortcomings are brought up.

Edited August 31, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Loki Laufeyson]

xD Does he have a brother named Thor? Did he give birth to a six legged horse *shot*

Thor exists but isnt his brother. Sleipnir exists in the bad future timeline. Btw, Norse canon has Sleipnir with 8 legs.

I didn't think about Awakening deep enough to make them full blown OCs.

Especially since I've seen what self-insert or semi-self-insert OCs do to this fandom.

As much I would love to say "kill everything", Gim-Rey is not meant to be taken seriously.

Please tell me you guys don't take them seriously.

Its all fun and games until someone gets waifu'd.

Noone tries to make a mary sue, unless they're doing so ironically or something to that effect.

Of course not. However, if someone is taking great pains to not create a Sue, theres a problem with that person's writing skills. If someone is actively avoiding making a Sue, they arent exactly educated on how to create a character and breathe life into them. A character must be able to stand alone as an entity without the excessive application(s) of tropes or archetypes. At very least, a well-rounded character does not rely on such. Nor should they rely on another character. Another character can be catalyst to the main character's development, but not reliant on such.

Fanfiction as a principle isnt a bad thing. Badly written fanfiction is a bad thing.

[Anacybele]

Of course not. However, if someone is taking great pains to not create a Sue, theres a problem with that person's writing skills. If someone is actively avoiding making a Sue, they arent exactly educated on how to create a character and breathe life into them. A character must be able to stand alone as an entity without the excessive application(s) of tropes or archetypes. At very least, a well-rounded character does not rely on such. Nor should they rely on another character. Another character can be catalyst to the main character's development, but not reliant on such.

This...just might be my problem. I'm trying too hard not to create Sues/Stus. I can't believe I didn't think of it this way before. Thanks for this post, Florina!

Edited August 31, 2014 by Anacybele

[Dragoncat]

Thor exists but isnt his brother. Sleipnir exists in the bad future timeline. Btw, Norse canon has Sleipnir with 8 legs.

Haha. 8 legs...got it. I know more about Greek mythology than Norse...it shows -_-