Did you turn your avatar into a full blown OC?

[CT075]

in my headcanon MU caught cold from sleeping on the ground and died

does that count as an OC?

Edited September 1, 2014 by CT075

[Magical Glace]

in my headcanon MU caught cold from sleeping on the ground and dieddoes that count as an OC?

It does, because that is an amazing head canon.

10/10 would read again.

[CT075]

you laugh, but i actually have a whole mental image of how the entire plot plays out without robin

like, the battle on the blue only goes the way it does because chrom trips, drops a torch and they jump onto the enemy ships because their own ships are up in flames

[Magical Glace]

you laugh, but i actually have a whole mental image of how the entire plot plays out without robinlike, the battle on the blue only goes the way it does because chrom trips, drops a torch and they jump onto the enemy ships because their own ships are up in flames

Still 10/10

Keep in mind I hate Robin for existing.

[Ownagepuffs]

you laugh, but i actually have a whole mental image of how the entire plot plays out without robinlike, the battle on the blue only goes the way it does because chrom trips, drops a torch and they jump onto the enemy ships because their own ships are up in flames

Literary god/10

[Loki Laufeyson]

This...just might be my problem. I'm trying too hard not to create Sues/Stus. I can't believe I didn't think of it this way before. Thanks for this post, Florina!

np. However, keep in mind that the entire plot of a story should not completely revolve around one character. Think about how your plot moves. Can it go forward without the inclusion of this character? Can the plot be resolved through various means, not just one path? If the answer to these are "yes", you will likely not have a Sue on your hands.

Does your character feel like a real person, and not just a construct? Does he/she have likes and dislikes, quirks, etc independent of the main conflict? Do they have some sort of characteristic that can be found in real life? (like biting one's bottom lip when nervous, or really hating the sound of digital music. Hai Adam.) Does the character have interests that do not revolve around the plot, but can be helpful to the overall narrative? (example: Sansa loves details and House gossip. Three books later, something comes up involving a lord and Sansa remembers just who his relatives are and where in line he is. Therefore giving her a slight internal edge on how to proceed.) How does the character perceive other people? Are they introverted? Extroverted? etc.

Just like people, every character is different. Every character you create or already exists, reacts differently to a given situation. Say Frederick reacts to Kelli with a smile. But Miriel hmmms and hahhs over the situation, while Maribelle nudges Lissa and whispers something in her ear, and Chrom says "Right. Well, lets get going." See how that works? It creates a relatively believable atmosphere and hints that our characters are more than just cut-outs.

you laugh, but i actually have a whole mental image of how the entire plot plays out without robin

like, the battle on the blue only goes the way it does because chrom trips, drops a torch and they jump onto the enemy ships because their own ships are up in flames

ilu cam

[Anacybele]

np. However, keep in mind that the entire plot of a story should not completely revolve around one character. Think about how your plot moves. Can it go forward without the inclusion of this character? Can the plot be resolved through various means, not just one path? If the answer to these are "yes", you will likely not have a Sue on your hands.

Does your character feel like a real person, and not just a construct? Does he/she have likes and dislikes, quirks, etc independent of the main conflict? Do they have some sort of characteristic that can be found in real life? (like biting one's bottom lip when nervous, or really hating the sound of digital music. Hai Adam.) Does the character have interests that do not revolve around the plot, but can be helpful to the overall narrative? (example: Sansa loves details and House gossip. Three books later, something comes up involving a lord and Sansa remembers just who his relatives are and where in line he is. Therefore giving her a slight internal edge on how to proceed.) How does the character perceive other people? Are they introverted? Extroverted? etc.

Just like people, every character is different. Every character you create or already exists, reacts differently to a given situation. Say Frederick reacts to Kelli with a smile. But Miriel hmmms and hahhs over the situation, while Maribelle nudges Lissa and whispers something in her ear, and Chrom says "Right. Well, lets get going." See how that works? It creates a relatively believable atmosphere and hints that our characters are more than just cut-outs.

Oh yes, I ask myself those kinds of questions all the time. I also ask myself things like "is this how this character would react in this situation?" and "does this seem like an action this character would take in this situation?" and so on.

Dawn of Darkness doesn't revolve completely around Azura, the lord character, for example. Leyon and Bryan have small arcs of their own and there are plenty of conversations not involving any of the three that give more character to the rest of the supporting cast (well, mostly, seeing as this story's cast is pretty dang big lol. But not as big as, say, RD's).

I suppose, though, that I did better with characterization in this story than I have in my Awakening fics because there are more OCs. And I feel that Ralph has turned out better than either Frederick or Kelli so far, and he's becoming my most primary OC (along with Antoinette later) in the Awakening world. As you say, interests that don't revolve around the plot are nice little add-ons. Ralph's is singing, as he turns out to have a very lovely voice and enjoys singing to himself to cope with his troubles. But it doesn't have anything to do with the plot of the story he's in.

I'm starting to think that I do better with original characters than already-established ones. xP

Edited September 1, 2014 by Anacybele

[CT075]

Ralph's is singing, as he turns out to have a very lovely voice and enjoys singing to himself to cope with his troubles. But it doesn't have anything to do with the plot of the story he's in.

this is actually a good start to making your characters less... flat, I guess.

the next question that comes to mind is "what are his troubles?" and "why does he sing, specifically?" And then, I might ask "why" to the answers of those questions, and then again to the answers of those (within reason). Once you have those answers set up, you can actually use parts of those reasons and backstories to make his (or her, this works as general advice) reactions to the actual story scenario seem more natural

[Anacybele]

this is actually a good start to making your characters less... flat, I guess.

the next question that comes to mind is "what are his troubles?" and "why does he sing, specifically?" And then, I might ask "why" to the answers of those questions, and then again to the answers of those (within reason). Once you have those answers set up, you can actually use parts of those reasons and backstories to make his (or her, this works as general advice) reactions to the actual story scenario seem more natural

Ralph's troubles are being poor to the point where he's been forced to turn to thievery and live on the streets most of the time. Not to mention trying to help his parents who are also poor because their business failed. Ralph sings to take his mind off of having to rob markets, sleep on hard ground, and occasionally go hungry.

And boy, does Ralph react to a lot of what's going on. After he first shows up, Frederick and Kelli shelter him and give him food that he hadn't tasted in ages. He nearly chokes himself a couple times because he'd been hungry a lot. He drools at most of what's put on his plate. And he's all "amazing!" when he's brought to an arena for the first time in his life. And the he's all "kick his ass!" when he, Frederick, and Kelli encounter Phantom.

I made him to be a sort of contrast to Frederick and their friendship is inspired by one of my favorite movies, Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas. The message they convey is that background and past events don't matter, and even two people with completely different histories and personalities can be great friends.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Anacybele

[CT075]

So what draws him to Frederick in particular (other than "that's the team of the story")?

[Jester Capri]

It's very hard to make your character not a Sue/Stu because it's kinda hard to make a pathetic OC.

It's either that, or people sometimes want to see themselves as better or something like that. But yeah, Stus can make stories aggregating or downright boring, because people pretty much expect what will happen.

I'm suffering from a depression with my fanfic, because he's too much of a Sue to go back.

In my opinion, readers are partial sadists. I think they want to see the OC suffer. Writers try to keep them interesting by making them good at things, but sometimes it can get off hand, which eventually makes them sues. And if they don't make anything else interesting, then... I don't know.

Whenever I write, two ideas clash: Make a character that you like, and make a character that most people would like. I usually think that if you like the character, then others would like it, but making characters so people will like it makes me unhappy with what I'm writing with.

Writing is pretty damn hard when it comes to characterization. You want a lot of people to like what you like, but sometimes, I fear greatly that people won't like it. I suffer from a dilemma when it comes to developing my character. Make him better at something: Mary Sue'd and hated. Make him less powerful and destroyed, people will complain about him being uninteresting.

These are just my thoughts, and I already have a tear shield from the arguments about to come.

[Sunwoo]

Ralph kind of sounds like Frederick and Kelli's personal cheerleading squad. And before you accuse me of not having read the story, I DID read all of what you have up right now.

[Anacybele]

So what draws him to Frederick in particular (other than "that's the team of the story")?

The fact that they were close friends as kids. But they separated when Frederick left their village to become a squire and later a knight. Ralph was supposed to join him, but his family's business soon began failing and they could no longer afford to send him to the palace. Ralph is a little younger than Frederick, so he had to wait longer to be of age to become a squire.

The two never met up again in almost fourteen years, because Ralph had been too ashamed of the lifestyle he had been forced to reduce himself to. He didn't think Frederick would approve of him anymore and was just scared as hell to even speak to him. Regardless, he watched him fight and train from time to time, although he would be hidden from view. But Frederick tells him that he's not upset and would never abandon Ralph because he knows Ralph well enough to know that he's a good man on the inside, regardless of the level he's stooped to.

Ralph kind of sounds like Frederick and Kelli's personal cheerleading squad. And before you accuse me of not having read the story, I DID read all of what you have up right now.

He does also serve the purpose of encouragement for Frederick. But I don't recall having him cheer for Kelli in anything. Also, what about parts 4 and 5, which I don't think I put on SF? (they're only on Deviantart and ff.net right now)

[Sunwoo]

He does also serve the purpose of encouragement for Frederick. But I don't recall having him cheer for Kelli in anything. Also, what about parts 4 and 5, which I don't think I put on SF? (they're only on Deviantart and ff.net right now)

Yes, I read those on fanfiction.net as well.

The thing is, even if Ralph isn't LITERALLY cheering on Kelli, he's "metaphorically" a cheering squad. To me, it seems like he does not really have a purpose, and when he does he's just there to make Frederick and Kelli look good. Likewise, Phantom being a dick really only serves to make Frederick and Kelli look good as well.

[Anacybele]

Yes, I read those on fanfiction.net as well.

The thing is, even if Ralph isn't LITERALLY cheering on Kelli, he's "metaphorically" a cheering squad. To me, it seems like he does not really have a purpose, and when he does he's just there to make Frederick and Kelli look good. Likewise, Phantom being a dick really only serves to make Frederick and Kelli look good as well.

Um, I don't see the issue? Frederick and Kelli are SUPPOSED to be the good guys and Phantom is SUPPOSED to be the bad guy. Every story has to have some sort of protagonist and antagonist. Frederick and Kelli are the protagonists while Phantom is the antagonist. Ralph is a supporting character that's on the protags' side.

[Sunwoo]

Um, I don't see the issue? Frederick and Kelli are SUPPOSED to be the good guys and Phantom is SUPPOSED to be the bad guy. Every story has to have some sort of protagonist and antagonist. Frederick and Kelli are the protagonists while Phantom is the antagonist. Ralph is a supporting character that's on the protags' side.

I think you kind of missed my point, Ana. Protagonists may be the "good guy" and the antagonists may be the "bad guy". But there is nothing that says protagonists have to be nice. I know you've read bits of my avatar run commentary at one point, so to use that as an example, my avatar Robin is an asshole protagonist. He may be the "good guy", but he is a full out jerk.

What I'm trying to get at is that Phantom really just exists to show how "strong" Kelli and Frederick's love is, how "dedicated" that Frederick is to his wife, stuff that exists to make Frederick and Kelli's character traits look good as opposed to being an antagonist that opposes them.

[CT075]

The fact that they were close friends as kids. But they separated when Frederick left their village to become a squire and later a knight. Ralph was supposed to join him, but his family's business soon began failing and they could no longer afford to send him to the palace. Ralph is a little younger than Frederick, so he had to wait longer to be of age to become a squire.

With no other information on the character, my next question would be "why isn't he jealous or bitter at all?"

I mean, if he didn't get to go due to poor luck, that's definitely bound to cause some resentment (even if not directly towards Fred but just towards the world in general). How does that resentment play into his interactions with Fred later? Does it make him more competitive, because he wants to prove that his misfortune didn't make him any less of a man? etc.

this part of the character could definitely be brought out and fleshed out more; other than the part around when he shows up where he tells his life story, i would be able to guess none of this from watching him interact with Fred

Edited September 1, 2014 by CT075

[Anacybele]

With no other information on the character, my next question would be "why isn't he jealous or bitter at all?"

I mean, if he didn't get to go due to poor luck, that's definitely bound to cause some resentment (even if not directly towards Fred but just towards the world in general). How does that resentment play into his interactions with Fred later? Does it make him more competitive, because he wants to prove that his misfortune didn't make him any less of a man? etc.

this part of the character could definitely be brought out and fleshed out more; other than the part around when he shows up where he tells his life story, i would be able to guess none of this from watching him interact with Fred

Because as I said earlier, Ralph looks up to Frederick as well. He always considered him to be like the older brother he never had. Ralph isn't the competitive type either, and he knows he can't compete with Frederick anyway. He has no combat skills or much of an education. He's quite envious, sure, but jealousy isn't his thing.

Plus, Ralph's self-esteem had been shot, as you can see. So he's not exactly trying to prove that his misfortune didn't make him less of a man. He thought it DID make him less of a man. Frederick and Kelli help fix that, though. Also, he does get irritated when he's more or less made fun of by an unnamed dude for a blunder later.

I think you kind of missed my point, Ana. Protagonists may be the "good guy" and the antagonists may be the "bad guy". But there is nothing that says protagonists have to be nice. I know you've read bits of my avatar run commentary at one point, so to use that as an example, my avatar Robin is an asshole protagonist. He may be the "good guy", but he is a full out jerk.

What I'm trying to get at is that Phantom really just exists to show how "strong" Kelli and Frederick's love is, how "dedicated" that Frederick is to his wife, stuff that exists to make Frederick and Kelli's character traits look good as opposed to being an antagonist that opposes them.

Yeah, well, making Frederick or Kelli assholes isn't exactly in character. And not every protagonist has to be an asshole. So I'm still rather confused at what you're trying to get at.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Anacybele

[CT075]

Okay, fine, so how did his misfortune affect him?

It shot his self-esteem, then what? Did that cause him to lose his way in life, so he hopes that finding Frederick will help him find it again? What is his motivation?

[Anacybele]

Okay, fine, so how did his misfortune affect him?

It shot his self-esteem, then what? Did that cause him to lose his way in life, so he hopes that finding Frederick will help him find it again? What is his motivation?

It caused him to kind of detach himself from the world. He was just ashamed to speak to anyone he knew and he didn't feel like he would ever get anywhere in life. And he felt that he was a disappointment to his parents. He didn't really have any motivation except to live as best as he could. It was all he could do without money or a home. A songbook he stole was the only form of comfort he ever had during this time.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Anacybele

[CT075]

He didn't really have any motivation except to live as best as he could.

Why would someone detached from the world care about living to the best he could?

E: come to think of it this is like 20 posts into something completely tangential so maybe you should PM me a response instead

Edited September 1, 2014 by CT075

[Anacybele]

Why would someone detached from the world care about living to the best he could?

Because he doesn't want to die? Gerome and Lon'qu seem rather detached and they don't go trying to commit suicide or anything.

[shadowofchaos]

Essentially, when making a character or justifying an occurrence in any literary work... you must evaluate the purpose of it, without just looking at the surface.

This is what Cam is making you do. Literally what you do in English class in the US, if you've ever seen AP level literary analysis.

To put it bluntly, any development you're giving Frederick and Kelli are only on the surface. What you see in your head when writing them, and what you are presenting in the voice of your writing are two different things.

And don't be afraid to rewrite things from scratch.

No seriously, if you fear that, then you don't care about your work as much as you think you do. [/blunt]

Edited September 1, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Sunwoo]

Yeah, well, making Frederick or Kelli assholes isn't exactly in character. And not every protagonist has to be an asshole. So I'm still rather confused at what you're trying to get at.

You're still missing the point, Ana. I'm not telling you to make Frederick or Kelli assholes. What I'm getting at is that I think that Frederick and Kelli are generically nice and Phantom is generically bad.

Phantom has "I'm obviously evil!" stamped to his head. He is just so noticeably "bad" it's hard to take him seriously. I'm not taking him as a threat, I'm not "on the edge" about him. He seems like a plot device to push Kelli and Frederick together and to show the strength of their love. He's just … there to make them closer to one another. His motivations in your honeymoon fic is basically to "steal" Kelli away from Frederick because she's his wife. And we, the audience, are supposed to see this as "bad" since we are supposed to be rooting for Kelli and Frederick.

I think I'd find Phantom more interesting if his goal was not Kelli, but it just happened to involve her. Maybe he wants revenge on Ylisse for destroying Plegia, and what better than to start with the knight captain of Ylisse and the tactician, who are on vacation and vulnerable? Basically, antagonists CAN be sympathetic, and Phantom is just … there. I don't care about him or the conflict he is supposed to bring.

[Dual Dragons]

I feel like as though we should make a creative writing workshop thread, haha. That could be fun, if it is allowed on SF.

In regards to the thread's original topic, I put my OC's into the game with the idea that the OC's are not the tactician. Mostly because Robin's personality is nowhere near close to my OCs' personalities.

It's very hard to make your character not a Sue/Stu because it's kinda hard to make a pathetic OC.

It's either that, or people sometimes want to see themselves as better or something like that. But yeah, Stus can make stories aggregating or downright boring, because people pretty much expect what will happen.

I'm suffering from a depression with my fanfic, because he's too much of a Sue to go back.

In my opinion, readers are partial sadists. I think they want to see the OC suffer. Writers try to keep them interesting by making them good at things, but sometimes it can get off hand, which eventually makes them sues. And if they don't make anything else interesting, then... I don't know.

Whenever I write, two ideas clash: Make a character that you like, and make a character that most people would like. I usually think that if you like the character, then others would like it, but making characters so people will like it makes me unhappy with what I'm writing with.

Writing is pretty damn hard when it comes to characterization. You want a lot of people to like what you like, but sometimes, I fear greatly that people won't like it. I suffer from a dilemma when it comes to developing my character. Make him better at something: Mary Sue'd and hated. Make him less powerful and destroyed, people will complain about him being uninteresting.

These are just my thoughts, and I already have a tear shield from the arguments about to come.

I feel the same way too. I'm an English major with a concentration in creative writing, and I have more focus on characterization than plot. Sometimes I worry if people will hate my character too. And sometimes I have to remind myself of something:

People will dislike me or hate me in real life.

Why should I worry if my character is hated if I honestly could care less if some people hate me in real life?

Perhaps because there will also be people who like me for me, and there could be people out there who like my character for being who they are.

Heck, I have gotten good and bad reactions to the same character shown to two different-minded groups. Sometimes I have to disregard certain advice because I have only shown snippets of the story when s/he is at their absolute worst or their absolute best. Maybe it's best to put the whole work forward rather than just on a chapter-by-chapter or passage-by-passage basis. That way, people will not be giving their opinions about a character as you're writing and you will get incluenced to change the character.

Um, I don't see the issue? Frederick and Kelli are SUPPOSED to be the good guys and Phantom is SUPPOSED to be the bad guy. Every story has to have some sort of protagonist and antagonist. Frederick and Kelli are the protagonists while Phantom is the antagonist. Ralph is a supporting character that's on the protags' side.

I haven't read your work so excuse me if I'm stepping over boundaries. More than likely, Sangyul is having a problem with how the story is executed. Execution is very much a key in any piece of fiction. Two stories can have the same kind of content, but if one treats romantic love as something one has to forgo all their aspirations to become a satellite to their partner and one treats romantic love as a relationship of equality, they will elicit different reactions.

From what I'm understanding from Sangyul's post, it seems Ralph has no other role but to be the main team's cheering squad. He has no personal goal; he has no arc; he has one role and that is to ENHANCE the main team's morale.

It's not always bad but it shows that he is there to elevate the main couple rather than be his own character. He's almost no different from being a plot device.

The main characters are going to get the most attention, but you can't disregard characters that you've given names and faces to. They should have their own agency as well, even if they're not under the spotlight, if they want to be taken seriously.

I would recommend maybe making a fiction focusing on Ralph if you haven't done so. Don't mention Frederick or Kelli--or, if you must, it's a passing mention. Go through his history. Histories could almost be like works of fiction themselves! I've done the same with my side-main characters so I can speak to them and ask them questions about how they react and how they dealt with their pasts and how they will deal with their presents and futures. Treat him like a main character of his own piece and see what you can discover about him.