S-Rank HM Tier List ("Oh boy, let me make my own" edition)

[PowerOfKaishin]

Yes, I know there is already one of these. After making a run through of this game, I felt like making my own instead of just debating the other one to see how I would do. Maybe turning this thing on it's head would be amusing for some of you.

Assumptions:

- Of course the player is assumed to be S-ranking the game

- Average stats are assumed. Levels, however, are arguable.

- There is no RNG abuse. The includes resetting at the beginning of a chapter for better growths (This lowers Lilina by a lot, and makes Alan and Lance strictly worse than Rutger as well as dragging Lugh down quite a bit, among others).

- A unit is looked at by themselves. They are not compared to other units individually, but rather as a whole. (Cath isn't lowered because Astohl is better in every way. Comparitively, only two other units can do what she does, so she rises a lot.)

- A unit's weapon availability, which is to say whether or not it must fight with other units for weapons, affects its rank.

- Shin and Sue aren't penalized on the Ilia tier list

- Tate and Thany aren't penalized on the Sacae tier list

- The reverse is not true, and those characters all receive a bonus on their own list

- Percival joins in chapter 15, with hard mode bonuses

- A unit isn't lowered because they are mutually exclusive with another, generally considered better unit.

- In most cases, arguing whether or not to bring a unit to chapter more than a few numbers after its joining chapter implies that you are regularly using that unit (don't argue that Echidna sucks in Chapter 21 at base level, though saying she sucks at level 6 or 7 is completely valid).

Other considerations; feel free to argue:

- The exp and power rankings are considered high priority

- The combat ranking is important, but is secondary to the above two.

- Funds is almost a joke. It can be reasonably assumed that every sword user in the party gets a killing edge when they become viable (even Roy, who potentially gets doubled and killed because of it). They can't use them all willy-nilly, but at the same time, conservation isn't a huge issue. Every axe user gets a killer, as it is by far the best weapon in that class save nearly non-existent silvers. Killer lances come later, but they too are a great boon and readily buyable.

- The turns ranking, surprisingly enough, is only a joke if you rush through chapters. As I have discovered on a few maps, turtling puts you right at the number, and I believe that is what the designers were thinking when they assigned those turn counts. However, this forum is consisted of FE vets, so of course most of us will think it is a joke.

- I need not comment on survivability, but remember that there are no valkyrie staves in this game. Merlinus' ranking is where it is because he can be bait the first couple of chapters. Access to the convoy isn't half bad either.

- Ilia is considered free experience

- Sacae's difficulty is weighted a lot more heavily than a good chunk of the other chapters. Why? Because of this:

It is as difficult as the beginning of the game. Out of everyone, all four Sacaens/half-Sacaens (doesn't include Dayan) and either Tate or Thany with the body ring are doubling everything in Sacae route with silvers and irons (Fir has to use killers instead). I believe A-route Gonzales is as well, along with maybe Lance and Clarine (if she is as high-leveled as the rest). If a unit is getting doubled, they aren't getting used unless they have some serious durability (Douglas, or Zeiss with the Delphi Shield). The 3/4 chapters they are gone can cause them to be immensely underleveled. Basically, if they don't see fielding in Sacae, they're out for the rest of the game (with a few exceptions, of course).

- Miledy is most likely not getting the delphi shield unless no other fliers are getting used. Nomads in Sacae get 15 MT weapons against a unit that already has more DEF than that at base level. It takes 6 shots to bring her down.

- Most of the stat boosters are useful on several, but not all units. In particular, however, the Body Ring is vastly more useful on the pegasus knights, Ray or Echidna making it a decent assumption that one of them is getting it.

- The enemies in this game aren't a joke (well, okay, except soldiers lol). The game isn't conducive to most units counter-killing (which is why Percy and Miledy are both near-top tier despite their late joining). Thus, with the turns ranking being as it is, units like Shin and Sue aren't penalized as much for not having an enemy phase before promotion. That, combined with a 3rd of the enemies in the game (even more on Ilia route) getting hit with 15 ~ 45 MT weapons, including a lot of particularly nasty wyvern riders, makes them rank much higher than in other games.

- As Anouleth pointed out years ago, Astohl's ability to not-die in the later chapters does NOT trump all the shit Chad gets you in the extra 5 chapters he's around. Thieves tend not to see combat in most maps they are deployed in anyway.

- 7-8 move is a wonderful thing in this game. Nearly all of the maps are massive and being able to move freely during enemy charges is nice too.

- Every magic user has at least heal after promotion. Extra healers in the midst of battle is always appreciated.

- Remember that because units aren't penalized for being strictly worse than others, making the statement "why bring Chad?" should imply you aren't bringing ANY thief.

Ilia:

Top:

- Rutger

- Alan

- Lance

- Lalum/Elphin

- Miledy

High:

- Clarine

- Dieck

- Gonzales [A-Route]

- Chad

- Astohl

- Percival

- Tate

Upper:

- Saul

- Ellen

- Shin

- Fir

- Cath

- Lugh

- Oujay

- Echidna

- Gonzales [b-Route]

Upper-Mid:

- Thany

- Roy

- Sue

- Klein

- Lot

- Noah

- Treck

- Ray

- Geese

- Igrene

Mid:

- Zeiss

- Marcus

- Bartre

- Douglas

- Lilina

- Garret

- Hugh

- Cecilia

Lower-Mid:

- Niime

- Fa

- Yodel

- Zealot

- Dorothy

- Bors

Low:

- Barth

- Wade

- Merlinus

- Wolt

- Karel

Bottom:

- Juno

- Wendy

- Sophia

Sacae:

Top:

- Rutger

- Lance

- Alan

- Miledy

- Percival

- Lalum/Elphin

High:

- Clarine

- Gonzales [A-Route]

- Tate

- Shin

- Fir

- Dieck

- Chad

- Astohl

Upper:

- Saul

- Ellen

- Cath

- Lugh

- Oujay

- Thany

- Sue

- Echidna

- Gonzales [b-Route]

Upper-Mid:

- Roy

- Klein

- Lot

- Noah

- Treck

- Geese

- Ray

Mid:

- Marcus

- Igrene

- Dayan

- Bartre

- Lilina

- Garret

- Douglas

- Hugh

- Cecilia

- Zeiss

Lower-Mid:

- Niime

- Bors

- Fa

- Yodel

- Barth

- Zealot

- Merlinus

- Dorothy

Low:

- Wade

- Wolt

- Karel

Bottom:

- Wendy

- Sophia

The placement of the nomads is probably going to get me a ton of shit. Shin's stats are as good as Rutger's (with slightly more strength and slightly less speed) while the only units that start doubling before Sue are Lance and Rutger (and technically Marcus, I guess), both of which are top tier units anyway. I stand by where I put them.

While PEMN is important, I must break the code here. I have found that Alan does just enough with average stats to one-round a LOT of things that Lance leaves with 1-4 HP. Does anyone else notice this or is it just me?

Units like Miledy, Percy, and especially Douglas went up quite a bit on Sacae route due to how badass the enemies are there. All three of those units can make suicide charges (that are totally not suicides) to diffuse a good chunk of the enemy army.

Edited September 1, 2014 by PowerOfKaishin

[dondon151]

- The exp and power rankings are considered high priority

why

- Funds is almost a joke. It can be reasonably assumed that every sword user in the party gets a killing edge when they become viable (even Roy, who potentially gets doubled and killed because of it). They can't use them all willy-nilly, but at the same time, conservation isn't a huge issue. Every axe user gets a killer, as it is by far the best weapon in that class save nearly non-existent silvers. Killer lances come later, but they too are a great boon and readily buyable.

but funds is a joke because thieves make it a joke.

- The turns ranking, surprisingly enough, is only a joke if you rush through chapters. As I have discovered on a few maps, turtling puts you right at the number, and I believe that is what the designers were thinking when they assigned those turn counts. However, this forum is consisted of FE vets, so of course most of us will think it is a joke.

of course it's a joke. it also makes EXP and power really easy.

- As Anouleth pointed out years ago, Astohl's ability to not-die in the later chapters does NOT trump all the shit Chad gets you in the extra 5 chapters he's around. Thieves tend not to see combat in most maps they are deployed in anyway.

but i pointed out the exact opposite, and my opinion's more valid!

astore helps the EXP rank more because he can fight better. wasn't funds a joke rank, anyway?

Units like Miledy, Percy, and especially Douglas went up quite a bit on Sacae route due to how badass the enemies are there. All three of those units can make suicide charges (that are totally not suicides) to diffuse a good chunk of the enemy army.

why? douglas destroys the combat rank.

anyway i don't think i need to say once more that the concept of a ranked tier list is stupid, but at least i tried to be helpful.

[Elieson]

Why is A-Gonzo above Percival in Ilia ?

[Icon of Sin]

I'm guessing terrain. Lots of rivers and mountains that he can cross and/or use to fight and forests slow Percival to Gonzales' level. He also brings a lot of total experience to be used by being a level 5 unit this late, complete with HM bonuses.

Both of them use axes and should double almost everything as it is.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Woodshooter

[PowerOfKaishin]

why

Relatively, power and combat are the hardest.

but funds is a joke because thieves make it a joke.

Also because you only need 88000. =O

of course it's a joke. it also makes EXP and power really easy.

I think turns is just there so you can't arena abuse forever and ever.

but i pointed out the exact opposite, and my opinion's more valid!

daaaaaah, okay boss. Actually, you make a valid point with that exp thing. Now, is it more important than a bunch of gold and the horseslayer?

astore helps the EXP rank more because he can fight better. wasn't funds a joke rank, anyway?

Of course someone who's done an SSS-rank 0% growths run of Thracia wouldn't understand me when I say it makes the early game quite a bit easier. FE6 is nice in that you actually get to use all the shit you steal.

why? douglas destroys the combat rank.

well it's not like he isn't still very low. But he has more utility than everyone below him on Sacae.

anyway i don't think i need to say once more that the concept of a ranked tier list is stupid, but at least i tried to be helpful.

I thought it might be interesting. Well shoot me for trying to have some fun. Thanks anyway, though.

Why is A-Gonzo above Percival in Ilia ?

Percy's overkill defense isn't doing anything Gonzo can't in Ilia. In Sacae, however, Percy's defense is no longer overkill and Gonzo's hit problems become readily apparent against enemies with 20 AS. In the remaining chapters, well, it's been pointed out multiple times that Gonzo is literally invincible on a mountain in 21. Also everything Woodshooter pointed out is valid as well.

Percy in Ilia being redundant is pretty much the entirety of why he's so low compared to his Sacae counterpart. A good chunk of the higher units can take his place in a lot of the situations that arise in Ilia.

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

I'm admittedly not super experienced with FE6, but I think assuming that Miledy never gets the Delphi shield over another unit is silly from a tiering perspective, since a unit using an item is very relevant to a tier list as long as there's a good reason to let them use that item (and Miledy is by far the strongest flyer, so giving her the Delphi shield is reasonable.) I can understand banning things like RNG abuse, but arbitrarily deciding a unit can't use an item isn't a logical rule.

Edited September 1, 2014 by MartyTheDemonSlayer

[PowerOfKaishin]

I'm admittedly not super experienced with FE6, but I think assuming that Miledy never gets the Delphi shield over another unit is silly from a tiering perspective, since a unit using an item is very relevant to a tier list as long as there's a good reason to let them use that item (and Miledy is by far the strongest flyer, so giving her the Delphi shield is reasonable.) I can understand banning things like RNG abuse, but arbitrarily deciding a unit can't use an item isn't a logical rule.

It's not so much that, but more Miledy is so ridiculously durable that it's almost always redundant to give her the shield. With 20 DEF she takes 10 damage from a short bow shot, with 63~69 hit. A promoted MIledy takes 6 hits to go down, and that's only if they all hit. I mostly said that because generally most teams will have Miledy + one other flier. This makes most arguments a lot easier when it comes to who gets what. Admittingly, there were times where I would send her out with the shield to no damage a lot of things, but those strategies were more for hilarity than anything else. In most cases, even against the nomads, it's unnecessary.

Edit: Changed this based on the requests of the above and below posters.

Edited September 1, 2014 by PowerOfKaishin

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

Hmm I haven't played fire emblem six enough to really argue with you about whether it's a good idea to give her the shield or not, I just think that the idea of a rule banning an option that doesn't require rigging the game is bad in a tier list, and that the rules should allow people to make arguments in favor of giving any unit any item they can use, as long as there's a good justification of why it's a good idea.

[dondon151]

Relatively, power and combat are the hardest.

power is almost completely redundant with EXP, since there's a 500-level difference between the EXP requirement and the power requirement. but if you recruit every character assuming L5 gonzalez and L9 juno, then you already have 497 levels. if you get L12 dayan instead, then you already have 500 levels, and they're basically the same exact rank, except power cares about recruitment.

Also because you only need 88000. =O

that's true, i forgot that the rank was bugged given the good ending. but that just further decreases the value of thieves, especially since keeping the 2 white gems that you get over the course of the game already contributes 40k to the rank, and the remaining 48k is trivial, especially with the silver card, because the silver card doubles the value of your liquid assets.

I think turns is just there so you can't arena abuse forever and ever.

but you can arena abuse forever and ever. an LTC playthrough on HM takes at most 157 turns, since that's what i got on 0% growths. an S rank requires 630 turns. you have 473 turns to arena abuse in chapters 7, 11L, 13, and 17I, which you can basically use to grind up crappy units. it's probably a good idea to invest some time earlygame into decent-but-not-good units as well. the turn buffer is absolutely massive.

I thought it might be interesting. Well shoot me for trying to have some fun. Thanks anyway, though.

sorry if i sounded too dismissive. that wasn't the tone i was trying to convey, now that i think about it. the 473-turn buffer is the number one reason why i think FE6 ranked runs are stupid, though.

It's not so much that, but more Miledy is so ridiculously durable that it's almost always redundant to give her the shield. With 20 DEF she takes 10 damage from a short bow shot, with 63~69 hit. A promoted MIledy takes 6 hits to go down, and that's only if they all hit.

now this i can disagree with. in many circumstances in ilia route i had to give milady the delphi shield because she's not invincible, even with 44 HP, 18 def. in an actual game context, no single flier should claim sole possession of the delphi shield, unless the player forgets that the trade option exists.

Edited September 1, 2014 by dondon151

[PowerOfKaishin]

power is almost completely redundant with EXP, since there's a 500-level difference between the EXP requirement and the power requirement. but if you recruit every character assuming L5 gonzalez and L9 juno, then you already have 497 levels. if you get L12 dayan instead, then you already have 500 levels, and they're basically the same exact rank, except power cares about recruitment.

That's true. When I said power I lumped them both together. Gaining 500 levels puts you at the number for both, yes. Relatively, however, it is still the most difficult.

that's true, i forgot that the rank was bugged given the good ending. but that just further decreases the value of thieves, especially since keeping the 2 white gems that you get over the course of the game already contributes 40k to the rank, and the remaining 48k is trivial, especially with the silver card, because the silver card doubles the value of your liquid assets.

Hard mode is difficult by itself, even excluding Sacae from the picture. Thieves give you stuff to make it easier, as well as obtaining a good chunk of the promotion items.

but you can arena abuse forever and ever. an LTC playthrough on HM takes at most 157 turns, since that's what i got on 0% growths. an S rank requires 630 turns. you have 473 turns to arena abuse in chapters 7, 11L, 13, and 17I, which you can basically use to grind up crappy units. it's probably a good idea to invest some time earlygame into decent-but-not-good units as well. the turn buffer is absolutely massive.

Don't you RNG abuse to make that work? >_> For purposes of entertainment, that's fine, but uh... it's usually pretty difficult to pull off tasks like recruiting Percy in 13.

sorry if i sounded too dismissive. that wasn't the tone i was trying to convey, now that i think about it. the 473-turn buffer is the number one reason why i think FE6 ranked runs are stupid, though.

I really do wish the turn requirement was higher, but as I played through it savestateless I can see why they gave you so many. They were expecting more casual players to play it, and as I pointed out, taking time killing everything on the map actually puts you at Par for a lot of the chapters. 10 turns for Idoun is ridiculous, though.

Maybe you know more about this than me, but I feel as though training 5 units to godly levels and rushing for a large period of time and only stopping to arena abuse to meet the exp and power ranks could cause problems, especially considering how difficult savestateless arena abuse can get.

now this i can disagree with. in many circumstances in ilia route i had to give milady the delphi shield because she's not invincible, even with 44 HP, 18 def. in an actual game context, no single flier should claim sole possession of the delphi shield,

This is hard mode, so what you quoted as a level 20/4 Miledy actually has 52 HP and 20 DEF, which makes quite a bit of difference. The ballista in 17 (Sacae) were annoying, but even they didn't cause too much trouble. I assume the ballista were what you were thinking of when you made this comment.

Edit: Those stats also match what would happen if you promoted Miledy right off the bat and kept her at level 10/1, which matches a 0% growth run. Is that what you meant?

unless the player forgets that the trade option exists.

Do I see a new challenge option? =D With some tweaking, of course.

Edited September 2, 2014 by PowerOfKaishin

[dondon151]

Hard mode is difficult by itself, even excluding Sacae from the picture. Thieves give you stuff to make it easier, as well as obtaining a good chunk of the promotion items.

chest keys

Don't you RNG abuse to make that work? >_> For purposes of entertainment, that's fine, but uh... it's usually pretty difficult to pull off tasks like recruiting Percy in 13.

i RNG abuse more than is needed because it's 0% growths. a lot of RNG manipulation wouldn't be necessary with growths.

I really do wish the turn requirement was higher, but as I played through it savestateless I can see why they gave you so many. They were expecting more casual players to play it, and as I pointed out, taking time killing everything on the map actually puts you at Par for a lot of the chapters. 10 turns for Idoun is ridiculous, though.

you can't use the casual player assumption in a tier list. a less casual paradigm might yield different results, and more casual paradigms can't be sustained because their inherent bad decisions are exposed.

This is hard mode, so what you quoted as a level 20/4 Miledy actually has 52 HP and 20 DEF, which makes quite a bit of difference. The ballista in 17 (Sacae) were annoying, but even they didn't cause too much trouble. I assume the ballista were what you were thinking of when you made this comment.

Edit: Those stats also match what would happen if you promoted Miledy right off the bat and kept her at level 10/1, which matches a 0% growth run. Is that what you meant?

i meant ilia, and this video will help demonstrate my point:

http://youtu.be/uaz2owgscK0

zeiss is way bulkier than either tate or shanna, but it's advantageous for him to hold the delphi shield because of this specific context. as units move in and out of ballista range, the best candidate for the delphi shield changes.

EDIT: overall it's probably a better idea to, rather than make a tier list, make instead a list of suggestions for what units to use and what units to avoid in a ranked run. the difference is subtle, but there should be a category of units whom you should never touch because everyone else is better. you can probably do this by calculating how best to fulfill the EXP rank with the smallest number of units, and then figure out which units those are.

since you pretty much have infinite time, the suggestions are inclined to favor units with good stats, who join early, and who start at a low base level. we can make a modest assumption that units should be expected to hit 20/12 at the end of the game. so going down the list:

EDIT 2: never mind, i made a list for you.

definitely use:

- allen

- lance

- ellen

- deke

- shanna

- clarine

- rutger

- saul

- astore

- shin

- tate

- lalum

- elphin

- milady

- perceval

- zeiss

these units can be expected to contribute ~320 levels altogether.

strongly consider:

- lugh

- sue

- treck

- noah

- fir

- gonzalez

- fae

these units have various advantages, and are recommended.

briefly consider:

- ward

- lot

- ogier

- geese

- raigh

- hugh

these units are pretty bad, but may still be usable.

utility units:

- marcus

- zealot

- klein

- echidna

- cecilia

- igrene

- garret

- niime

- juno

- dayan

these units are useful, but don't gain EXP quickly.

don't touch unless necessary:

- wolt

- bors

- chad

- lilina

- wendy

- barth

- cass

- sophia

- douglas

- karel

don't bother using these guys unless they're forced.

untiered units:

- roy

- joder

roy is forced, joder can't gain EXP.

between the "definitely use," "strongly consider," and "utility units" tiers, you should be able to get 501 levels no problem in the easiest way.

Edited September 2, 2014 by dondon151

[GreatEclipse]

I did an S rank run a few years back that made no use of the arena and went for the lowest possable turn count, and it certainly makes a difference who you use under that kind of a requirement, but the results are at odds with conventional wisdom. The best units are the unpromoted HM boosted ones, since they can be rotated in and out to maintain high exp gains while still giving a strong enough performance. Allen, Lance and Dieck are, by contrast, quite medioce when used that way.

[dondon151]

Allen, Lance and Dieck are, by contrast, quite medioce when used that way.

you are making it difficult for yourself if you pick the socialist approach to experience distribution.

[GreatEclipse]

you are making it difficult for yourself if you pick the socialist approach to experience distribution.

The problem the three of them have is that they can't be under-leveled to the same degree as some of the other units and remain viable, that is all. They are still perfectly usable, in fact way more units are than on an efficency list, they just need more attention paid to them before promotion than someone like Fir, who has the same base STR and SPD as Lance 10 levels up, so they would drop relative to her on a tier list.

Edited September 16, 2014 by GreatEclipse

[dondon151]

"needing more attention paid to them" is not a negative when they're tied for the largest availability of any unit in the game.

fir having those good base stats may even be somewhat irrelevant, because it's very likely the case that using alance at that point in the game is easier than using fir. fir would help the EXP/power ranks more, but her contribution towards those ranks is not mandatory by any means whereas alance and deke's contributions are mandatory (as indicated by the usage list that i wrote above).

you would pick fir over a worse unit like hugh, and maybe even over a similar unit like gonzalez, but the gulf of separation between her and other earlygame units still exists. her HM bonuses serve primarily to stop her from being trash rather than to help make her great.

Edited September 16, 2014 by dondon151

[GreatEclipse]

"needing more attention paid to them" is not a negative when they're tied for the largest availability of any unit in the game.

fir having those good base stats may even be somewhat irrelevant, because it's very likely the case that using alance at that point in the game is easier than using fir. fir would help the EXP/power ranks more, but her contribution towards those ranks is not mandatory by any means whereas alance and deke's contributions are mandatory (as indicated by the usage list that i wrote above).

you would pick fir over a worse unit like hugh, and maybe even over a similar unit like gonzalez, but the gulf of separation between her and other earlygame units still exists. her HM bonuses serve primarily to stop her from being trash rather than to help make her great.

They are manditory early on just because you don't have many options and almost everyone else is much worse, but they still end up getting most kills fed to them by Marcus. What makes Fir so good is that you can get her from 1/-- to 20/1 with deployment on 3 or 4 midgame chapters, because she can take care of herself vs. axes at almost any level, and you face tons of them at that point. By contrast, Allen and Lance need supports and a decent level relative to the enemies to have good combat, so they end up stealing a lot more early kills and mid-game deployment slots.

Edited September 16, 2014 by GreatEclipse

[Irysa]

How can they be "stealing" kills when Marcus can't secure ORKO's anyway vs the majority of earlygame enemies that aren't Soldiers without resorting to innacurate Silvers? Deke also doesn't need to be fed kills for the most part either, so I don't get where that criticism is coming from.

[dondon151]

if there is no one else around to take such kills, alance can't be "stealing" kills in the first place.

and to elaborate on irysa's comment about deke, he ORKOs most chapter 2 enemies at base and generally has 2nd or 3rd-best offense on the team prior to chapter 7.

By contrast, Allen and Lance need supports and a decent level relative to the enemies to have good combat, so they end up stealing a lot more early kills and mid-game deployment slots.

these are supports and a "decent level" that they will already have in a ranked playthrough. it's not unlikely that they'll be L11+ with C supports by the time that fir joins, and there is a lot of incentive to continue using them. using all three of these units concurrently, particularly in chapters 10 and 11, is not impossible.

interesting that you accuse alance of "stealing" mid-game deployment slots while neglecting to make the same consideration for fir. i think you need to revise your conceptual understanding of theft.

Edited September 16, 2014 by dondon151

[GreatEclipse]

if there is no one else around to take such kills, alance can't be "stealing" kills in the first place.

and to elaborate on irysa's comment about deke, he ORKOs most chapter 2 enemies at base and generally has 2nd or 3rd-best offense on the team prior to chapter 7.

these are supports and a "decent level" that they will already have in a ranked playthrough. it's not unlikely that they'll be L11+ with C supports by the time that fir joins, and there is a lot of incentive to continue using them. using all three of these units concurrently, particularly in chapters 10 and 11, is not impossible.

interesting that you accuse alance of "stealing" mid-game deployment slots while neglecting to make the same consideration for fir. i think you need to revise your conceptual understanding of theft.

By stealing kills, I just meant someone else set them up, so that anyone else in range can take them. It has more to do with Allan/Lance not being too amazing in their own right early on. Rutger is the only unpromoted unit at that point who can reliably kill generics without massive assistance.

I explicity said that Fir needs less deployment slots to get up to promotion. All she really needs is her join chapter, 10A/11B and the desert, since we can camp for reinforcements on a run like this. Fir is giving only a slightly worse performance in combat vs. Allan/Lance 10 levels up when she isn't using the Wo Dao, and is gaining way more exp. I have no idea why you wouldn't use her at least up to 20/--, though if you do promote her, her player-phase offence is among the best on the team. She may even promote before they do, since they have one move in chapter 14, and won't have the rank for Killing Edges.

Edited September 16, 2014 by GreatEclipse

[dondon151]

I explicity said that Fir needs less deployment slots to get up to promotion. All she really needs is her join chapter, 10A/11B and the desert, since we can camp for reinforcements on a run like this.

1. why would you use fir in the desert

2. if fir needs 3 chapters to get from L1 to L20, how many chapters do alance need to get from L11 to L20? certainly fewer than 3, but it doesn't matter because they're the second-line choice for pretty much every map anyway by virtue of superior movement and good stats.

once more, i spy the blindness that comes with favoritism. either fir shouldn't be able to get to L20 within the span of 3 chapters, or one of alance should be able to get to L20 long before perceval joins and render your opinion "Third best combat unit is Percival, vastly outranking Allen and Lance in usefulness" incorrect. which is it? in your run, you said:

It would not be an issue if they started out better, but early on they just finish off stuff Marcus weakened just like everyone else, and with mid-game combat experience so spread out, they become mediocre fast.

and yet "with mid-game combat experience so spread out," "all she really needs [to get to promotion] is her join chapter, 10A/11B and the desert." i challenge you to be more consistent with your evaluations, thanks.

[GreatEclipse]

1. why would you use fir in the desert

2. if fir needs 3 chapters to get from L1 to L20, how many chapters do alance need to get from L11 to L20? certainly fewer than 3, but it doesn't matter because they're the second-line choice for pretty much every map anyway by virtue of superior movement and good stats.

once more, i spy the blindness that comes with favoritism. either fir shouldn't be able to get to L20 within the span of 3 chapters, or one of alance should be able to get to L20 long before perceval joins and render your opinion "Third best combat unit is Percival, vastly outranking Allen and Lance in usefulness" incorrect. which is it? in your run, you said:

and yet "with mid-game combat experience so spread out," "all she really needs [to get to promotion] is her join chapter, 10A/11B and the desert." i challenge you to be more consistent with your evaluations, thanks.

1) There are waves and waves of Brigand reinforcments, and we want the exp. She can fight them just fine even at a low level.

2) What I meant by that was that Allen/Lance can't be underleveled, and then thrown into a chapter against a particular enemy type and gain lots of exp, because they need a high level and supports to have good combat vs. anything, unlike Fir, or Gonzales, or Shin. They can certainly get to promotion by the time Percival joins (though he still has way better stats and weapons), they just wouldn't have been as good for the exp rank as many of my other team members, and that was my overriding concern that whole run. They do have high move, yes, so they can carry around Roy and finish off enemies left alive by Marcus/Zealot/Thany, but that hardly strikes me as top-of-the-line performance.

Also, I've been reluctant to bring this up in the past, but you've always come across as overly harsh and judgemental in your tone, DD151, and it makes having these kind of arguments with you unpleasant. I have a lot of respect for you as a player, I just wish you were less defencive when challenged. These discussions are just not that big a deal at all.

Edit: Thinking it over, it would be better to frame my argument in terms performance relative to a units level, than in deployment slots, as that the root of the issue. When you try to S rank without the arena, you face the challenge of trying to extract 51,000 EXP from a fixed number of enemies, and so when a unit is said to be good for the EXP rank, what that really means is that they need fewer kills over the span of the game to reach whatever level they end up at relative to other units, and this free's up kills for others to take. Ideally then, you would clear the game with the lowest leveled units possable, but this goal needs to be ballenced against the combat rank and, if you want an extra challenge, turn counts, hence performance relative to a unit's level being the best indication of quality. My argument for Fir > Allen/Lance is that at 20/-- Fir will have needed to kill far fewer of the games finite enemies, without giving a markably worse performance when all of them were present. Perhaps you disagree, and find their unique advantages to outweigh her's. That's fine, but I still don't understand why she would not be used on an S rank run, ever, unless you didn't like her. Her joining time, stats and level are just too perfect, and the same goes for Shin and Gonzales.

Edited September 16, 2014 by GreatEclipse

[dondon151]

1) There are waves and waves of Brigand reinforcments, and we want the exp. She can fight them just fine even at a low level.

i was getting more at the fact that the desert is a better place for fliers and magic units. but even supposing that we're going triple flier + lugh + staffer, there are still 5 more unit slots, and we need not deploy thieves in this map now that we have the desert item trick. so i suppose you can make fir backtrack and find the speedwings while milking the reinforcements.

2) What I meant by that was that Allen/Lance can't be underleveled, and then thrown into a chapter against a particular enemy type and gain lots of exp, because they need a high level and supports to have good combat vs. anything, unlike Fir, or Gonzales, or Shin. They can certainly get to promotion by the time Percival joins (though he still has way better stats and weapons), they just wouldn't have been as good for the exp rank as many of my other team members, and that was my overriding concern that whole run. They do have high move, yes, so they can carry around Roy and finish off enemies left alive by Marcus/Zealot/Thany, but that hardly strikes me as top-of-the-line performance.

realistically, alance will not be in the circumstance that you described because of their earlygame use and because this is sandbagging. either cavalier in a ranked run surpasses marcus and zealot rather quickly. if every unit used is expected to contribute to the EXP rank, then it should not matter if alance's performance is the same as that of another unit several levels lower (disregarding the mov disparity). alance is ideally going to reach 20/12 or higher anyway, so what is there to be gained in taking an overall more strenuous route?

by the way, i think it's amusing that you describe their role as "finishing off enemies left alive by shanna." shanna's offense is horrible. she's pretty useful given a solid chunk of favoritism, but this statement should really be the other way around.

Also, I've been reluctant to bring this up in the past, but you've always come across as overly harsh and judgemental in your tone, DD151, and it makes having these kind of arguments with you unpleasant. I have a lot of respect for you as a player, I just wish you were less defencive when challenged. These discussions are just not that big a deal at all.

i don't think i will apologize for being firm, because i don't engage in the practice of circumlocution for the purpose of sounding nice. i'm not going to feign a lack of confidence in my opinion because it doesn't suit my state of mind. i could be meaner if you were really being stupid, but this is usually about as amiable as i get.

Edit: Thinking it over, it would be better to frame my argument in terms performance relative to a units level, than in deployment slots, as that the root of the issue. When you try to S rank without the arena, you face the challenge of trying to extract 51,000 EXP from a fixed number of enemies, and so when a unit is said to be good for the EXP rank, what that really means is that they need fewer kills over the span of the game to reach whatever level they end up at relative to other units, and this free's up kills for others to take. Ideally then, you would clear the game with the lowest leveled units possable, but this goal needs to be ballenced against the combat rank and, if you want an extra challenge, turn counts, hence performance relative to a unit's level being the best indication of quality. My argument for Fir > Allen/Lance is that at 20/-- Fir will have needed to kill far fewer of the games finite enemies, without giving a markably worse performance when all of them were present. Perhaps you disagree, and find their unique advantages to outweigh her's. That's fine, but I still don't understand why she would not be used on an S rank run, ever, unless you didn't like her. Her joining time, stats and level are just too perfect, and the same goes for Shin and Gonzales.

i don't think your conclusions follow from your premise. optimizing the EXP rank in conjunction with tactics doesn't indicate that the ideal situation is to "clear the game with the lowest leveled units possible." you could also clear the game with the fewest units at the highest level possible. suppose that only these two extremes exist: which philosophy leads to the easier clear? there's numerous evidence that the easiest way to trivialize a fire emblem game is to use a single very strong juggernaut, and not to use a team of only decent units. so i assert that the ideal situation is to clear the game with the fewest units at the highest level possible.

granted, EXP gain slows down drastically past L12 promoted or so, so there's another tradeoff between maximizing individual units' levels to make the game easy and using enough units to still meet the EXP requirements. but that was the whole point of that usability list that i wrote: it provides a core rotation of units whose long-term use will make the game as easy as possible, and they can meet the majority of the EXP requirements on their own. also, because the marginal utility of the last deployment slot is so small, that last unit can be chosen from a lower tier in order to make the rest of the EXP requirement.

if you paid attention to that list at all, it should be clear that i did not say that fir should never be used in an S rank run. she's in the same group as gonzalez - they don't really help out in any meaningful way, but they can provide a good EXP contribution at minimal cost to combat.

[GreatEclipse]

i don't think i will apologize for being firm, because i don't engage in the practice of circumlocution for the purpose of sounding nice. i'm not going to feign a lack of confidence in my opinion because it doesn't suit my state of mind. i could be meaner if you were really being stupid, but this is usually about as amiable as i get.

You see, this is what I'm talking about. You have no right to be mean, to smart or stupid people. Such comments doesn't make you look confident at all, in fact, you've always struck me as somone who was deeply insecure. I can pick up on it easily in others, because I've felt that way about myself at many points in my life. Being charitable in how you interprete people's arguments, and showing tact in how you express your disagreements, makes you come across as someone who trully believes every word the're saying.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not interested in debating with you anymore.

Edited September 17, 2014 by GreatEclipse

[Irysa]

This has to be most roundabout attempt at an ad hominem exit I've ever seen in my life.

[GreatEclipse]

This has to be most roundabout attempt at an ad hominem exit I've ever seen in my life.

I'm not the first person to feel this way. I know Solid Sense personally, btw, and he's the most intellegent guy I've ever seen. He was right when he told me to leave this place behind.

Edited September 17, 2014 by GreatEclipse