List all the wasted potential in Awakening. And think of ways to improve them for the next Fire Emblem.

[Interceptor]

But why couldn't they have made Hawkeye be a skill that gives general all-around +50, or x2 hit? Heck I would even go with something like +100 hit (Exaggeration, but you get the idea). My point is that the concept of Hawkeye now completely ignores the Avoid on your character, making one of the aspects of battle not play a role at all.

This would be more complicated, difficult to properly plan for, and harder to make relevant as the game went on. Hawkeye would then become the one L+ skill that actually had a random result attached to it. I don't see any particular advantage gained; it would be like having Pass or Vantage+ only work 80% of the time.

If you want tiny chances to avoid damage, that's what Dual Guard does.

[Kreekakon]

This would be more complicated, difficult to properly plan for, and harder to make relevant as the game went on. Hawkeye would then become the one L+ skill that actually had a random result attached to it. I don't see any particular advantage gained; it would be like having Pass or Vantage+ only work 80% of the time.

If you want tiny chances to avoid damage, that's what Dual Guard does.

Ok I can see your point in saying that it would be harder to keep relevant as the game goes on. That's a good point.

I'm simply curious though: Why would doing what I proposed make the game more complicated or difficult to prepare for? Shouldn't that if anything make the mode possibly easier in a few select parts? Because now for example your one higher speed unit has a chance to dodge the attack, while in the current Hawkeye he wouldn't be able to dodge just like all the other units.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Kreekakon

[Interceptor]

I'm simply curious though: Why would doing what I proposed make the game more complicated or difficult to prepare for? Shouldn't that if anything make the mode possibly easier in a few select parts? Because now for example your one higher speed unit has a chance to dodge the attack, while in the current Hawkeye he wouldn't be able to dodge just like all the other units.

In the current scenario, there's no question as to whether or not a Hawkeye-loaded enemy is going to be able to hit someone (outside of a DG). That greatly simplifies the decision tree, because you don't have to crunch any numbers.

What's the upside? If the enemies are going to have accelerated hitrates anyway, you're not adding strategy, you're adding randomness.

[Baldrick]

Even if it ended up with something like x2 hit, then what it would be would probably be that normal units would always get hit, and dodge-tanks would be extremely weakened in effectiveness.

Is that factoring in avoid or not? In the former, it wouldn't work because it would have a smaller effect the better you can dodge. Unless there were several Hawkeye users in a pack, the skill might as well not exist. In the latter, it would provide such a large boost that in practice it'd be pretty much the same as a guaranteed hit.

[Buttocksinator]

The removal of Lunatic + woudn't benefit anyone. The people who like it would be pissed and the ones who don't wouldn't care because they never play that difficulty anyway. It obviously has an audience, I can't stand it personally but it being in the game doesn't affect my experience in the slightest.

I can see the problems with pair up from a gameplay perspective, but from an aesthetic perspective the combat animations are where I get to see a lot of the characters personalities. So i'm indifferent on that point. If they could figure out a way to keep the character banter in combat while removing pair up that would probably be ideal though.

Also enemy reinforcements are a-okay, but enemy reinforcements that can move on the same turn they appear? No. Even though that didn't start in Awakening, it's definitely something that needs to end in Awakening.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i agree with removing the reinforcements moving on the same turn, it doesn't allow for counterplay outside of hindsight knowledge.

"oh random unit spawned from a non fort title and killed someone? fuck you player :^)"

[Kreekakon]

In the current scenario, there's no question as to whether or not a Hawkeye-loaded enemy is going to be able to hit someone (outside of a DG). That greatly simplifies the decision tree, because you don't have to crunch any numbers.

What's the upside? If the enemies are going to have accelerated hitrates anyway, you're not adding strategy, you're adding randomness.

I still don't understand though. It adds randomness to the mix instead of guaranteed hit true, but what is confusing me right now is that isn't the "possible result (Not being hit) of the now added randomness" a good one for the player?

I'm saying that if anything this wouldn't make the mode too much different from it is now, and may actually be beneficial to the player in some cases, because attacks that would definitely hit with normal Hawkeye won't do it anymore. It's a chance of not taking damage, and isn't that what players would love to have to be able to get past a level easier? Why would that "complication of the outcome" be bad for the player? One of the outcomes is now not taking any damage. There are indeed rare cases where you do want to get hit, but I assume in most scenarios, you want to take as little damage as possible.

Regarding the upside....it's mainly the idea that I like the idea of the player still having his Avoid acknowledged by the game. It's a rewarding feeling to the player, because they know that their Speed stat will matter in battle even if it is only just a little.

Is that factoring in avoid or not? In the former, it wouldn't work because it would have a smaller effect the better you can dodge. Unless there were several Hawkeye users in a pack, the skill might as well not exist. In the latter, it would provide such a large boost that in practice it'd be pretty much the same as a guaranteed hit.

Yes it is factoring in the avoid. My main issue with Hawkeye I stated before is that it didn't factor the avoid, and just resulted in a 100% hit.

I didn't put much thought into my examples I'll admit, but those were just examples. If someone really decided to make Hawkeye such a skill which greatly boosts enemy hitrate, it would require some balancing as to not make it too irrelevant, or make it so that it's so powerful that you might as well proc it 100% anyways. As Interceptor said, another thing to take into account is the rapidly increasing stats of the player units in comparison with the enemy units AKA not losing relevance the later you go into the game.

[Baldrick]

I didn't put much thought into my examples I'll admit, but those were just examples. If someone really decided to make Hawkeye such a skill which greatly boosts enemy hitrate, it would require some balancing as to not make it too irrelevant, or make it so that it's so powerful that you might as well proc it 100% anyways. As Interceptor said, another thing to take into account is the rapidly increasing stats of the player units in comparison with the enemy units AKA not losing relevance the later you go into the game.

That seems like a lot of effort for not much reward; I don't see why having avoid taken into account is inherently a good thing. A better solution to this problem would be to allow the player to choose what pool of skills the enemies will have. So you could remove Hawkeye, other players could remove any skill they don't like, etc. Unless there's an easy implementation that's appropriately balanced, my belief is that Hawkeye isn't broken and doesn't need fixing.

[Kreekakon]

That seems like a lot of effort for not much reward; I don't see why having avoid taken into account is inherently a good thing. A better solution to this problem would be to allow the player to choose what pool of skills the enemies will have. So you could remove Hawkeye, other players could remove any skill they don't like, etc. Unless there's an easy implementation that's appropriately balanced, my belief is that Hawkeye isn't broken and doesn't need fixing.

I never said it was broken, and actually needed fixing. The community's experience with, and various playthrough's of Lunatic+ are evidence enough that it is not broken at all. Balance-wise it seems to work fine, because it is perfectly able to be dealt with.

I am merely stating that out of design I do not like the skill very much, because it removes acknowledgment of a part of a player's effort. It's just a feeling that I get.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Kreekakon

[Interceptor]

I still don't understand though. It adds randomness to the mix instead of guaranteed hit true, but what is confusing me right now is that isn't the "possible result (Not being hit) of the now added randomness" a good one for the player?

It's "good" in a macro sense, but it's annoying from a tactical perspective to have to account for it, because we're still talking about small chances to avoid damage. I'd probably just simplify the process by assuming it'd still be a hit (just like I do for Dual Guards).

Regarding the upside....it's mainly the idea that I like the idea of the player still having his Avoid acknowledged by the game. It's a rewarding feeling to the player, because they know that their Speed stat will matter in battle even if it is only just a little.

Avoid still works on the other 70% of enemies that don't have Hawkeye. Since avoid is the most powerful form of defense (a max DEF Morgan in lategame is still going to get rekd by 72 mt Berserkers), it makes sense to have such a strong counter to it.

L+ kills off a lot of pet strategies... avoid-tanking isn't anything special in that respect. Comes with the territory.

[Sleepy_Tactician]

Come back when you have more solid evidence of "luck based".

Did you have to sound so condescending? Not necessary dude. Might as well have said something like, "Get gud or gEt r3kt no0b". I apologize for... whatever I said that pissed you off. While I'm not particularly bothered by it much, this kind of thing is what scares off newcomers. I appreciate the insight though.

While this isn't "solid evidence", IIRC some of your videos show how much of a factor luck can play (I haven't watched in a very long time, don't quote me on that) They might have been early game though. Which you yourself said is flawed. Still, it's something that could have and should have been handled better imo. That was my main point from the start.

Also Just because people have gotten through something doesn't mean not luck. But I see your point. If you go by my posts, that means I got through it too. Although my L+ early game was just Frederick Emblem and a LOT of resets. My opinions probably are a bit biased because of that, but I still do think it can be luck based.

i agree with removing the reinforcements moving on the same turn, it doesn't allow for counterplay outside of hindsight knowledge.

"oh random unit spawned from a non fort title and killed someone? fuck you player :^)"

While I can't speak for anyone other than myself, as someone who doesn't really play that often anymore, I don't remember every detail and thus, a lot of resets are made.

The pool of skills is always from the same seven, and none of them have random properties. You can prepare for any by preparing for all. This is how the Ch2 strategy I posted works: I just assume that all enemies have every skill, and solve the problem for that situation. You can do the same thing for reinforcements.

Your problems are completely self-inflicted. Sometimes you need to be creative to deal with reinforcements. Take a look at what I did for Ch16 in my playlog. This chapter is notorious for having both a mess of fliers, and reinforcements that arrive from behind your starting position. I deal with it by avoiding land-based enemies, unequipping people, and limiting their facings.

What I meant is that while they take out the randomness of an enemy getting a lucky 10% hit or unlucky 10% miss or guaranteed half damage or so, the luck factor I was referring to is simply which unit gets the skill. IIRC if one of the units in the prologue chapter had vantage + and luna+, reset. reset your game now or you lose. But I see you mentioned that. If I were to restart my l+ run, this is an excellent source of information. I never thought to utilize breaker skills bc I figured it would be a waste of a skill slot due to the hawkeye mooks running rampant. In fact, I never relied on dodging at all because of it. Maybe that's why my L+ runs always fail miserably... Well, one of many reasons. I should restart it and approach things differently.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Sleepy_Tactician

[shadowofchaos]

Did you have to sound so condescending? Not necessary dude. Might as well have said something like, "Get gud or gEt r3kt no0b". I apologize for... whatever I said that pissed you off.

I apologize for being so condescending.

But in all seriousness, it sounds like all of your problems, are pretty much self-inflicted.

What you did to pretty much get on my nerves, is you just sound like you were whining and taking your circumstances are the typical experience of Lunatic+.

Sure you can rage. Sure you can feel frustrated at the obstacles it throws at you.

But it just seems like you're not even trying to roll with the punches and sounding like you're blaming it all SOLELY on the mode and ranting in this thread.

IIRC if one of the units in the prologue chapter had vantage + and luna+, reset. reset your game now or you lose. But I see you mentioned that.

It's earlygame.

It takes what... 30 seconds of your time to reset?

Why are people so salty about this?

Earlygame is an uphill battle because it is earlygame.

Your options are limited.

Hell, it's the same with vanilla Lunatic if you couldn't kite the mage properly AND they had focus.

Edited September 8, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Sleepy_Tactician]

I apologize for being so condescending.

But in all seriousness, it sounds like all of your problems, are pretty much self-inflicted.

What you did to pretty much get on my nerves, is you just sound like you were whining and taking your circumstances are the typical experience of Lunatic+.

Sure you can rage. Sure you can feel frustrated at the obstacles it throws at you.

But it just seems like you're not even trying to roll with the punches and sounding like you're blaming it all SOLELY on the mode and ranting in this thread.

It's earlygame.

It takes what... 30 seconds of your time to reset?

Why are people so salty about this?

Earlygame is an uphill battle because it is earlygame.

Your options are limited.

Hell, it's the same with vanilla Lunatic if you couldn't kite the mage properly AND they had focus.

It's cool. I see what you mean now. I saw that a lot of people also felt the skills were unfair in a few other forums and I assumed it was the norm of L+. And so I spoke as if it was. I apologize for that. This thread showed me some interesting things though. Gonna restart my L+ when I get the chance. And hopefully not suck.

Also, I assure you I wasn't trying to blame it entirely on the mode. I did mention that I wasn't that good at the game. However, this thread is about things we feel could improve in the next fire emblem and I feel like L+ could use some improving, so I was stating negatives about the mode. Of course there's positives about the mode too. I may be salty but I don't hate it. Just I feel some aspects are unfair, which I was expressing here.

About early game, I agree with you there. that's why I didn't really want to make too big a deal about it. But luna+ should have been one of the skills that appeared at like chapter 2 imo. That skill is way too powerful to be in the freakin' prologue. But I guess it's fitting for a difficulty mode called "Lunatic+"

Even though that mage is nothing compared to the unlucky Vantage+/Luna+ Mercenary. I see what you mean. I had to sic ol' Freddy on him (probably not the best choice)

Edited September 8, 2014 by Sleepy_Tactician