Carter Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 That being said...I'm not at all against the idea of a tier list, but this is really jumping the gun. Most of us have only had a chance to play as 5 characters, if even that, and have only been able to watch the rest. It's like tiering all the characters in an FE game based on the first quarter. At most this can be considered tier list speculation. "What do you think it will look like?" And in that case, the most I've heard is that Robin and Palutena seem really good. I've even heard from a few people that Palutena could be this game's Meta Knight, but that's likely overreacting. I see. Changed the title to be kinda more suiting. But, tier lists are fun! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 that would be 256 variations per character assuming that there are (3 custom options + default) ^ (4 specials) per character which would be over 10000 positions on the tier list I'm pretty sure my math is right, although if my assumptions re: # of options are off then I'm totally wrong ...right. well, i'm sure there'll also be some moves that'll be banned from tournament play... these custom moves may prove to be quite vexing for tier lists... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ema Skye Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Regarding Rosalina, I think she's that high because people have figured out how to desync her (autocancelled Dairs). As a result, this basically turns her into the Ice Climbers, only she isn't as one dimensional and has a sidekick that respawns infinitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruity Insanity Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I'M JUST HAPPY THAT A FIRE EMBLEM CHARACTER HAS A CHANCE AT BEING TOP-TIER AGAIN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiseki Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 serious question: in what ways was meta knight nerfed? He can no longer glide and a number of his attacks are slower and weaker. Even though it's too early to draw conclusions, I'll drop some of my thoughts made from what I've seen so far here: Captain Falcon and Ganondorf have been given enough buffs to pull them out of bottom-most tier. They probably can't go any lower than mid-low tier now. Pit and Dark Pit will most likely be directly next to eachother on the list, much like Link and Young Link in Melee. Kirby and Mario for A tier. Unless something has changed since the E3 build, Marth is (sadly) dirt bottom. Everyone else is viable in no particular order. Diversity appears to be a common theme among preliminary top tiers. Shulk and Robin are built around this, so it seems ideal for them to be that high up on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ema Skye Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 To be honest, nerfed Meta Knight is really just Meta Knight that doesn't outclass everyone by leaps and bounds anymore. I also disagree with Marth being anywhere near low tier. Even with the nerfs, he's still a solid character. Nerfed doesn't mean garbage, it just means worse than before. Marth was top tier in Melee and so even a high tier standing for Marth would still be considered a nerf. In order for Marth to be bad, you'd basically have to redesign the character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I meant to put Fox under A-, unless you think he should be higher...? Rosalina (I'm assuming) because of Luma. She might become the next Ice Climbers (keep in mind this is a casual saying this). Samus was buffed a ton, Sakurai said at E3 2014 (could be wrong) was the best at game. Link: http://youtu.be/edCQDRuL8Dk?t=26m58s Donkey Kong... I have no idea. -Fox should probably be in A from what I've seen in Shofu and Zero's streams, A- is ok. -I feel like Rosalina's meta game will have to develop a bit before I can safely call her S worthy. -Going off what Sakurai said doesn't really mean much I'm afraid. -Unfortunately zero hasn't uploaded any DK footage so I'm stuck here. To be honest, nerfed Meta Knight is really just Meta Knight that doesn't outclass everyone by leaps and bounds anymore. This. A million times this. MK has lag and worse priority, yes, but his toolkit is still very solid and can really apply a lot of pressure to most opponents. I think Little Mac should be a little higher since people in Smashboards are saying Airgame is not as good as it used to be in Melee and Brawl. And Little Mac has high priority in his attacks so I don't think he'll be in that low of a tier. But who knows, SSB4 just came out and we know so little, he could truly be that low. He does have a few approaches but most of them are punishable which could justify why he is low. Not as good doesn't mean any less important. Considering how large blast zones are in this game there's a very vocal group of people saying, arguably with justification, that off-stage tactics are key and Mac doesn't have those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 speaking of streamers, who are some entertaining and good folks? i pretty much only watch competitive melee for big tournaments, but come smash4 i want to actually start learning advanced techniques and stuff like that. get a little more involved in the competitive game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 (edited) http://www.twitch.tv/zero is pretty much streaming non-stop, is really really good at the game (he won the invitational) and plays a wide variety of characters so you'll probably get some strats on at least one character you want to play. edit: there's also http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios http://www.twitch.tv/shofu but they don't stream as often. Shofu's probably the most entertaining. Edited September 15, 2014 by kirsche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ema Skye Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 speaking of streamers, who are some entertaining and good folks? i pretty much only watch competitive melee for big tournaments, but come smash4 i want to actually start learning advanced techniques and stuff like that. get a little more involved in the competitive game. I've been watching VG BootCamp since launch and I really like them. They rotate players every few hours and they're always playing different characters. When I'm looking for a bit more casual stream, I like shofu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 http://www.twitch.tv/zero is pretty much streaming non-stop, is really really good at the game (he won the invitational) and plays a wide variety of characters so you'll probably get some strats on at least one character you want to play. Oh that selection screen is oh so glorious. Ness lookin' snazzy over there with the other single-rep characters. That could've been avoided though, had a certain Earthbound character survive the newest iteration of Smash... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 M2k has claimed in Zero's chat that DHD may single handedly ruin tournaments as his projectiles are op but they're not fun to watch or play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester Capri Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 This is just my judgement to the ones I seem to find interesting, so don't expect me to make a judgement for everyone (because no one does). Duck Hunt Dog, from what I see, is a pretty nasty character. He has a bunch of projectiles, his smash attacks have great range and knockback, though his recovery is pretty shit despite the vertical distance gained. S-A tier possibility. Meta Knight's crown is lost from all those massive nerfs he has gotten. He'll prolly be in B-Tier. Marth (I've personally played him in Smash Fest) I've already noticed he's not as good as he was in the past two Smash games. Range is nerfed much more, damage is a bit lowered, and his attack speed has been lowered, probably to make Lucina seem faster. B-C tier. Villager, a person I hate and now grown scared of. His recovery is OP as hell, he has some ranged options, pocket is pretty strong, and his normal attacks are from what I heard really good. He'll prolly place in A-B. Robin, I'm kinda underwhelmed by him/her. He's slower than I expected, and his Thoron tome is pretty damn weak (9% damage). Robin fits his Tactician stats: balanced. His running speed is pretty shit compared to Marth, but much better than Ike and his attack speed plus low damage with the bronze sword kinda makes him have to rely on his arsenal rather than swordplay. His Levin Sword makes his aerials deadly finishers, which is good for edgeguarding or just otherwise finishing people quickly. Still, I find Robin pretty versatile, just not as strong as I thought. A minus - C+, though I might think otherwise (ppl that play him were pretty shit). I'll think of some others later, but these are kind of my highlighted people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samias Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Marth (I've personally played him in Smash Fest) I've already noticed he's not as good as he was in the past two Smash games. Range is nerfed much more, damage is a bit lowered, and his attack speed has been lowered, probably to make Lucina seem faster. B-C tier. Either Marth was sped back up, or Lucina isn't really as fast as we thought she would be from the trailers. I think it's the former, at least for ground speed Marth is incredibly fast. But I do agree he's been nerfed and will probably be mid tier. But his and Lucina's Dancing Blade customizations put a really interesting spin on the move, making it either easier to link and consistent or to give it huge knockback. The Crescent Dolphin Slash also has a certain sweetspot on it that makes it a kill move in the right situation. Villager will probably be very high. Pocket is just so OP. Only thing missing is consistency in KO moves, buuuut if you play Villager right, you are more denying people their recovery than you are sending them straight into blast zones. But some matchups like Link are extremely difficult because Link's shield passively blocks projectiles moving towards him so long as he's not attacking. Speaking of Link, I doubt he'll be in bottom tier again. His recovery is still not great but in certain matchups, he has a very safe approach due to the new mechanics of his shield. Not sure if he'll be in the highest tier due to his overall speed and his weight being in that sweet spot to be easily punished, but definitely not awful like he was in Brawl. This all depends on people's stances on custom moves, but Palutena's default B moves are weak. If she has to use her default, she doesn't have much going for her other than her fsmash and usmash being phenomenal. Yeah, her roll is good, but I feel like her ability to keep applying pressure isn't so hot. BUT her custom moves are a LOT better than her defaults and if she can use those, then she has a whole lot more options. Still probably not top of top tier but they definitely improve her. I don't think Pikachu is super good. Maybe ordinary amounts of good. Highly mobile and with better recovery than before, but I feel like Pikachu lacks oomph somehow? Everything comes out faster but I also feel like it lacks pressure. And I think the fsmash is hit by stale move negative at a higher ratio than most other characters. Jigglypuff's Rest got better! And if you KO, it's always a star KO, giving you time to wake up every time! ...But it's not quite the 0-KO that Melee Rest was due to the larger blast zones on every stage. Weeelll it's better than it used to be but I have to see the rest of Jigg's kit. I'm begging that she plays better than Brawl though. BEGGING. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 (edited) ohhhh yeah, looking at dhd and villager, i'm not liking what i'm seeing. they look pretty op. but i also feel like villager counters dhd pretty well, too. edit: also, thanks a bunch for the suggestions! Edited September 15, 2014 by Phoenix Wright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyFireMage Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 (edited) Does Ness's PK Magnet make him a massive counter against Robin/Pikachu/etc? Edited September 15, 2014 by KwehKweh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 From the demo and streams I've watched. I'm going to say this is the best balanced smash game yet, and even people on the lower end of the spectrum are gonna be viable, just everyone has their strengths to use as well as their weaknesses some are more pronounced but dedicated players can win out with their favorites easier then before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingddd Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFXOgPi6_N5QGmgr2kUW3Uj2EDsfhvfhY There are some nice matches from the swiss invitational. Bowser is looking great in the battles going on in here. It seems like the general agreement is to play 2 or 3 stock matches. More leaning to 2 stock matches from the competitive community. Most of reasoning seems to stem from the lack of edge guarding/hogging that makes matches last longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 How can you rate peach when she breaks online play jkjkjk that's my contribution so long folks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Stewart Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFXOgPi6_N5QGmgr2kUW3Uj2EDsfhvfhY There are some nice matches from the swiss invitational. Bowser is looking great in the battles going on in here. It seems like the general agreement is to play 2 or 3 stock matches. More leaning to 2 stock matches from the competitive community. Most of reasoning seems to stem from the lack of edge guarding/hogging that makes matches last longer. Well that and the fact that the blast zones are so far away. That seems to be the biggest reason I'm hearing for 2-stock matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Nintendo and the competitive community both seem to be gunning for 2 stock, 5 mins. Which honestly seems like a good deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I'm not a fan of 2 stock because it punishes errors more than it rewards skillful play. One SD and you're suddenly looking at a 2 stock vs 1 situation, whereas with 3 stock it's 3 v 2 which is both a lot less intimidating and a lot easier to come back from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I dunno 5 stock always seemed like a more reliable staple for any Smash tourneys that I participated in back in the Melee/Early Brawl days, and I'd like to see that brought back instead of 2 or 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 5 stock would take absolutely forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyFireMage Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 At the moment it feels like Bowser/Bowser Jr/DHD/Dedede/Greninja are top tier because everybody is using them and just assuming they are. I haven't seen any Ness/Wario/Peach/Zelda/etc played seriously yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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