euklyd Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 knife are you really unironically arguing that "a skilled roy can beat any fox" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knife Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) Yes. People undervalue a thing called "outplaying" your opponent, even if they have to work harder for the win. Those low tier mains are bad for continuing to use low tiers and then johning about losing because their character sucks. After all, there is no such thing as a 100:0 matchup. Those guys need to stop bitching about their character and actually do something, or use someone better. Poisoned Melee is a lazy way for these people to get better, instead of putting in REAL work. I main low tiers, but if there was a Smash mod where Link was much better, would I play it? Hell no. Example: Lawz almost beating Ally (search Lawz vs Ally) Edited April 23, 2015 by Knife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Yes. People undervalue a thing called "outplaying" your opponent, even if they have to work harder for the win. Those low tier mains are bad for continuing to use low tiers and then johning about losing because their character sucks. After all, there is no such thing as a 100:0 matchup. Those guys need to stop bitching about their character and actually do something, or use someone better. Poisoned Melee is a lazy way for these people to get better, instead of putting in REAL work. I main low tiers, but if there was a Smash mod where Link was much better, would I play it? Hell no. Example: Lawz almost beating Ally (search Lawz vs Ally) By the same logic are you against all the gameplay patches Nintendo keeps releasing to balance the game or is it an issue of official vs non official? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knife Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) I'm mixed on those patches. While they nerfed a character that was clearly better than the rest of the cast, they pretty much ignored buffing the bad characters (in fact they nerfed an average character like Link and made him bad). Honestly Diddy prepatch, wasn't too OP, people just need to DI more and not fight Diddy from above (the only ridiculous matchups he had were against heavies, everything else was pretty winnable). If they have to patch, do it right otherwise don't do it at all. Edited April 23, 2015 by Knife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 Are you guys seriously allowing Knife to call some people lazy crybabies and fanboys that touch themselves to nude pictures and call PM trash and such? Why is he allowed to do this while I've been called out for saying things like "Splatoon looks dumb, imo" and such? Maybe I've said some things one too many times, and I apologize for being forgetful about what I say in the past (honestly, how is it that I have a really good memory EXCEPT for when it comes to my own mouth?), but that doesn't make it right for Knife or anyone else to go spouting similar things even ONE time. I'm not interested in PM myself though, mainly because of the Melee similarities. Anyway, I wish I could play some more today, but I got a lot of stuff going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knife Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) Hey. I'm just spouting my opinion on stuff. Don't like it? Though, why do people get mad at you for sharing your opinion? I thought this was America. I guess that's why I can't talk about Abomiinations. Also, I guess you've never heard of satire. Here you go. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire Edited April 23, 2015 by Knife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) Sure! I should be free then too. Hey you free in about 10 minutes? I might not be able to play much, I have to go around 3:30. EDIT: Oops, forgot about time zones! You might still be in school, my mistake. Edited April 23, 2015 by Carter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zera Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (in fact they nerfed an average character like Link and made him bad) But they buffed him in 1.0.6 as well. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Link_%28SSB4%29#Update_history First hit of jab no longer has any IASA frames, hindering Link's reliable kill setups, combos, and offensive ability. No more jab1 -> jab2 -> Spin Attack. Spin Attack's damage increased from 12% > 14% uncharged, and 19% > 22% fully charged. Start up time has also been slightly decreased as well. But the Spin Attack itself was buffed to compensate. Dash attack's non-tip hitbox deals 1% less damage. (13%>12%) One percent less damage if you sourspot? Wow, that's a serious nerf right there (/sarcasm). Dash Attack's hitbox comes out sooner, allowing Link to hit opponents above him. But it also comes with a buff. Link can no longer F-smash or F-tilt while holding a bomb. This is part of the new item throwing rules, which affect everybody. Down tilt can no longer spike from the ledge. Okay, that's a legit nerf. Link's Hylian Shield now blocks Falco and Fox's lasers. But now Link has better matchups against animals in space. Link is a very good character if you're good with him, and he's much better than he was in previous Smash games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) Are you guys seriously allowing Knife to call some people lazy crybabies and fanboys that touch themselves to nude pictures and call PM trash and such? Why is he allowed to do this while I've been called out for saying things like "Splatoon looks dumb, imo" and such? Maybe I've said some things one too many times, and I apologize for being forgetful about what I say in the past (honestly, how is it that I have a really good memory EXCEPT for when it comes to my own mouth?), but that doesn't make it right for Knife or anyone else to go spouting similar things even ONE time. I'm not interested in PM myself though, mainly because of the Melee similarities. Anyway, I wish I could play some more today, but I got a lot of stuff going on. I imagine it's either A, we just don't have many people who feel passionately about PM, or B, knife is being so vicious about his dislike, no one wants to go to the effort of arguing about it. Edited April 23, 2015 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knife Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) But they buffed him in 1.0.6 as well. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Link_(SSB4)#Update_history First hit of jab no longer has any IASA frames, hindering Link's reliable kill setups, combos, and offensive ability. No more jab1 -> jab2 -> Spin Attack. Spin Attack's damage increased from 12% > 14% uncharged, and 19% > 22% fully charged. Start up time has also been slightly decreased as well. But the Spin Attack itself was buffed to compensate. Dash attack's non-tip hitbox deals 1% less damage. (13%>12%) One percent less damage if you sourspot? Wow, that's a serious nerf right there (/sarcasm). Dash Attack's hitbox comes out sooner, allowing Link to hit opponents above him. But it also comes with a buff. Link can no longer F-smash or F-tilt while holding a bomb. This is part of the new item throwing rules, which affect everybody. Down tilt can no longer spike from the ledge. Okay, that's a legit nerf. Link's Hylian Shield now blocks Falco and Fox's lasers. But now Link has better matchups against animals in space. Link is a very good character if you're good with him, and he's much better than he was in previous Smash games. But they buffed him in 1.0.6 as well. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Link_(SSB4)#Update_history First hit of jab no longer has any IASA frames, hindering Link's reliable kill setups, combos, and offensive ability. No more jab1 -> jab2 -> Spin Attack. Spin Attack's damage increased from 12% > 14% uncharged, and 19% > 22% fully charged. Start up time has also been slightly decreased as well. But the Spin Attack itself was buffed to compensate. Dash attack's non-tip hitbox deals 1% less damage. (13%>12%) One percent less damage if you sourspot? Wow, that's a serious nerf right there (/sarcasm). Dash Attack's hitbox comes out sooner, allowing Link to hit opponents above him. But it also comes with a buff. Link can no longer F-smash or F-tilt while holding a bomb. This is part of the new item throwing rules, which affect everybody. Down tilt can no longer spike from the ledge. Okay, that's a legit nerf. Link's Hylian Shield now blocks Falco and Fox's lasers. But now Link has better matchups against animals in space. Link is a very good character if you're good with him, and he's much better than he was in previous Smash games. Oh by no means is he the worst character. But he sure dropped since the jab nerf. I'm guessing you don't know that I could previously true combo a jab 1 into grab or jab 1 into a smash attacks. Losing a kill setup is a big deal. I'm currently played a nerfed version of my character and it's noticeable. Toon Link is better, no one cares about the other buffs. They forgot the dair buff though. Edited April 23, 2015 by Knife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 I imagine it's either A, we just don't have many people who feel passionately about PM, or B, knife is being so vicious about his dislike, no one wants to go to the effort of arguing about it. Oh. Huh... Well, I suppose either one of those makes sense. Hey. I'm just spouting my opinion on stuff. Don't like it? Though, why do people get mad at you for sharing your opinion? I thought this was America. I guess that's why I can't talk about Abomiinations. Also, I guess you've never heard of satire. Here you go. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire I don't know, honestly. I think it has something to do with the words I choose, but like I said, you use similar terms as well and don't get called out like I do. I do my best to choose appropriate wording so I don't offend anyone, but I still struggle with that a bit at times. But I really am trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 knife PM kinda gives people a not stupid (brawl's problem) game with depth (sm4sh's problem) and more than 10 viable characters (melee's problem). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 What do you mean by depth in a fighting game? :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) What do you mean by depth in a fighting game? :/ http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano%E2%80%99s-perfect-marth-class%E2%80%94advanced-frame-data-application.337035/ you can click on about any of of the links in the op and that will pretty much have more (relevant) intricacies than sm4sh ever will. knife, the roy vs fox matchup is 40-60 on FD at best. that matchup is awful at everywhere except FD (where it's still bad), and real roy mains would tell you that as well. Edited April 23, 2015 by Comet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moishe Oofnik Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) Yes. People undervalue a thing called "outplaying" your opponent, even if they have to work harder for the win. Those low tier mains are bad for continuing to use low tiers and then johning about losing because their character sucks. After all, there is no such thing as a 100:0 matchup. Those guys need to stop bitching about their character and actually do something, or use someone better. Poisoned Melee is a lazy way for these people to get better, instead of putting in REAL work. I main low tiers, but if there was a Smash mod where Link was much better, would I play it? Hell no. Example: Lawz almost beating Ally (search Lawz vs Ally) Isn't your point really flawed by your proof because even if he was really skilled with Link he still lost to a skilled Snake A skilled roy would lose to a skilled fox because A.Fox has a superior matchup B.Fox is a better character C.Fox has a superior matchup against him Your point is only half true a very skilled Roy could only beat some foxes Roy is also way harder to use and master then Fox or Falco because they are much easier to pick up and use (unless you use a dolphin emulator and don't have a GC controller :( ) Its like saying melee Kirby can destroy Melee fox when you need to be a ridiculously skilled player to do that while battling a rather average player P.S:its nice to say you can outplay but it doesn't actually say anything Show us how your ridiculously trained player with link can actually defeat snake in brawl not ALMOST especially when snake isn't exactly the best character in the game show me how he beats meta-knight or ice climbers or possibly Marf Match-ups and How it works in SMASH: Match-ups as an idea how 2 roughly as skilled players using different characters/mains would faire in a fight whoever would usually win would be a positive match-up aka more chances to lose in a fair fight if it has a negative match-up hence why a character like kirby is very bad it has alot of negative match-ups Tier lists Judge characters by their match-ups average and there options in a fair game if they operate rather poorly mostly they are rated low if they are in a fair fight usually perform in an excellent way like meta knight they would be top tiers not a very hard concept to grasp Edited April 23, 2015 by Moishe Oofnik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Sorry Carter, there's been a change in my schedule. Have to go shopping then stop by a relative's place. Said place has internet access and I should be free for,awhile if you're interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano%E2%80%99s-perfect-marth-class%E2%80%94advanced-frame-data-application.337035/ you can click on about any of of the links in the op and that will pretty much have more (relevant) intricacies than sm4sh ever will. I still don't understand, people can't do the same amount of research and such on Smash Wii U/3DS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) I still don't understand, people can't do the same amount of research and such on Smash Wii U/3DS? there just aren't that many techniques or things that would be worth researching that would be significant. people could check the fastest way possible to down tilt with x character out of a dash, but the engine just doesn't have many options for much of anything. it's actually the most simple engine so far of all the smash games. there is some stuff about percents for when certain combos work (like falcon's falling up air to knee) but nothing that comes close to what was there. more options (like being able to crouch out of a dash, for starters) would give smash 4 more depth because there would be more that you could do. Edited April 23, 2015 by Comet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Mom let me stay home. I should be free, like, all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 there just aren't that many techniques or things that would be worth researching that would be significant. people could check the fastest way possible to down tilt with x character out of a dash, but the engine just doesn't have many options for much of anything. it's actually the most simple engine so far of all the smash games. there is some stuff about percents for when certain combos work (like falcon's falling up air to knee) but nothing that comes close to what was there. more options (like being able to crouch out of a dash, for starters) would give smash 4 more depth because there would be more that you could do. Oh. Huh... That's kind of ironic, having such a simple engine on the most advanced home console so far (Nintendo console, anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zera Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Oh by no means is he the worst character. But he sure dropped since the jab nerf. I'm guessing you don't know that I could previously true combo a jab 1 into grab or jab 1 into a smash attacks. So, if you hit me with a jab1, you get a free grab or smash attack? That sounds cheap. I would totally nerf it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Woo, how about at the next hour? Does 6:00 PM EST work for you, Dracocoa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Nearly any time today should work for me. So yeah, sure. Just tell me when you'd like to play. My 3DS FC is 3411 - 3105 - 1635. Just Draco is fine btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Piano teacher ended up leaving early, how about some matches now? My FC is 3196-3029-8357. Mii name is "Tommy". I'll make a room! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 haha the beginning of that one. I should probably stop trying to Thoron when I'm not on the ground though.Wanna try a few rounds with customs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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