Klok's Procedurally Generated Maps

[Fateborn]

Strongly considering making FE8CM on FEXNA with all new maps. FE8's maps are terrible anyway.

OH GOD NO.

^{do it}

^{with the whole lyon resurrection spam, a new map would be needed for it anyway!}

[Klokinator]

It'd honestly kill like, 5 birds with one stone. Only thing holding me back is a way to get FEditor animations into FEXNA, but I'll be paying Obviam to add that functionality. If anyone wants to helpme and thusly fexna out,feel free to donate some money to Obviam.

...It's gonna cost me $350, just fyi.

Edit: HAVE ANOTHER MAP

Edited November 28, 2014 by Klokinator

[Fateborn]

...It's gonna cost me $350, just fyi.

Cough up some doughs and we'll talk.

[Klokinator]

Well, in other news, yeti added some more features.

-Tile lock. You can now lock down tiles you don't want to change, and even if you regenerate a whole new map, those tiles won't change.

-Auto-draw. You can now press a button and watch it fill in everything to the end instead of leaving blank squares. P. Cool.

-Mappy support. Herp.

-Custom tileset support. Yes, you can seriously make your own tilesets work with the generator. It's freaking sweet. I'll be testing it out with FE5 tilesets in a bit.

[deranger]

Programming in rules of random generation for each tileset could be fun.

[Klokinator]

It's easier than that. Find an obscure tileset, like the pirate FE7 one, make me a good map, and send it to me. I then convert it to a map file, and the editor reads the data and says "well hmm pillars don't go in water ever, but they do go on blank tiles or next to bla bla" and it sets up rules for each tile. Literally, if the community want to help me out, make some good maps with your favorite tilesets like the pirate ship one, send them to me, and I can make it get smarter automatically. Eventually it won't make any errors ever.

Edit: Remember Map 1 from the OP? Have some alternate versions. Note they aren't edited. I made the right-side unrandomizable and generated everything else however the editor pleased. The results were badass.

Don't you just love it?

Edited November 28, 2014 by Klokinator

[CT075]

this is my favorite (yes this should look familiar, klok)

[47948201]

I'm still partial to

[Klokinator]

Yeah, this is why we need more good pirate ship maps XD

[deranger]

Well, map 2 of the most recent shrine of seals maps has no height errors. Because it has no staircases or two high walls. (Every time stairs or two high walls are used except for 1's top left corner in your most recent post, Klok, height errors occur.)

Programming in proper indoor maps would need to consider tile placement on more than just the surrounding tiles. It'd need to keep track of wall heights and floor heights.

Edited November 28, 2014 by deranger

[fengaridotdll]

Yeah, this is why we need more good pirate ship maps XD

Yeah, Pirate Ship maps are rather annoying. Especially Chapter 11 of Sacred Stones (Ephraim route)

[Klokinator]

Mountains, after the newest update of Yeti's tool, are now officially the easiest terrain type to create. Life is hilarious.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Klokinator

[Rubidium]

I need this tool in my life because I'm crap at making mountains.

[Primefusion]

A lot of the designs this tool comes up with are equatable to noise. Just a bunch of "stuff" without any flow (a lot of the stuff is useless to boot). The tool also neglects some shading, especially on the Bern tileset.

[Chocolate Kitty]

Maybe I don't have to suffer in silence regarding this tool anymore...

[Klokinator]

A lot of the designs this tool comes up with are equatable to noise. Just a bunch of "stuff" without any flow (a lot of the stuff is useless to boot). The tool also neglects some shading, especially on the Bern tileset.

You're right. It doesn't make perfectly designed maps, so we shouldn't use it. We'll just let all the terrible mappers continue requesting from the less-than-half-a-dozen good mappers who actually take requests, even while the fanbase grows exponentially. Never mind that you can totally spit out a procedurally generated map and then edit it, or you can use Terrain Tags to form a basic map outline, generate, repair function, and then manually edit any leftover inconsistencies.

Nope, we don't want that. We'll just let people keep on making the best maps ever.

Serious talk now, it makes quite good outdoor maps which need a little TLC, and it gives noobs a way to make pretty good maps without begging for maps, or releasing projects with terrible maps from the outset. I don't see how you can argue with that.

And if the tileset isn't making shading properly, just make some more high quality maps for it so it has better data to draw off. It's that simple. More maps to draw data from = better maps it can make.

[Chocolate Kitty]

You're right. It doesn't make perfectly designed maps, so we shouldn't use it. We'll just let all the terrible mappers continue requesting from the less-than-half-a-dozen good mappers who actually take requests, even while the fanbase grows exponentially. Never mind that you can totally spit out a procedurally generated map and then edit it, or you can use Terrain Tags to form a basic map outline, generate, repair function, and then manually edit any leftover inconsistencies.

Nope, we don't want that. We'll just let people keep on making the best maps ever.

Serious talk now, it makes quite good outdoor maps which need a little TLC, and it gives noobs a way to make pretty good maps without begging for maps, or releasing projects with terrible maps from the outset. I don't see how you can argue with that.

And if the tileset isn't making shading properly, just make some more high quality maps for it so it has better data to draw off. It's that simple. More maps to draw data from = better maps it can make.

Who said don't use it anymore; my biggest issue is the ridiculous glorification of this thing. I'm sick of looking at skype or SF and seeing you post maps that a generator made and calling it your creation; it's not. It's no different than going to a cake shop, picking one out, and then changing the color or flavor of the frosting vs making one from scratch(or even a damn box cake) yourself.

As it stands as one of "the less-than-half-a-dozen good mappers who actually take requests"(which is bullshit), we don't really mind requests in the first place as long as they're somewhat coherant(and from feedback from requesters, it's not us who turn people down, no one thinks they're allowed to ask).

It doesn't even draw data from existing maps what are you talking it about; it's literally an algorithm(it checks what tile was just used and looks for tiles that fit with it which is set when the tileset is configured to use in the first place).

[Primefusion]

Thanks for putting words I never said in my mouth, Klok.

Maybe I don't have to suffer in silence regarding this tool anymore...

SUFFER WITH ME

[CT075]

It doesn't even draw data from existing maps what are you talking it about; it's literally an algorithm(it checks what tile was just used and looks for tiles that fit with it which is set when the tileset is configured to use in the first place).

this is factually incorrect, the current iteration of the algorithm uses existing maps to see which tiles are most commonly used next to other tiles

(i agree with the sentiment of the rest of the post, though)

[Celice]

A lot of the designs this tool comes up with are equatable to noise. Just a bunch of "stuff" without any flow (a lot of the stuff is useless to boot). The tool also neglects some shading, especially on the Bern tileset.

This is the worst part of the tool. The lack of clear focus and flow makes these maps nothing more than filler. It can be appreciated, but it doesn't look anywhere good or fun to play on.

On the other side of the spectrum you have maps like FE Awakening or Advance Wars Days of Ruin or FE12's extra chapters, where maps are so focused that the player has no real choice in how they proceed and they feel flat and uninspired.

[Klokinator]

Yeti has already added terrain tags to negate "lack of flow" perceived issues. I can draw a line of "peak type" and those tiles will merge together seamlessly. I can draw plains, boat, mast, anything, and those tiles will always stick to that tile type. I can place a set of tiles manually, and then "pin" those tiles down and they will not change. I can even, BELIEVE IT OR NOT(!!!!) manually create a map, and fill in the leftovers like mountains with the auto-repair tool so I don't have to worry about those. The tool is a win-win.

I can't really blame ignorance though, as it hasn't been released yet. Once it's released I think there'll be a deeper appreciation for it. I just don't understand this focus of "if the map takes less time thanks to automation it's automatically inferior to hand drawn hurr durr". Humans constantly adapt technology to doing the tedious tasks that we don't enjoy, and this tool at the least does exactly that; it removes a lot of tedium.

[Primefusion]

tasks that we don't enjoy,

Excuse me?

Why do you think Skitty, Celice, and myself make maps? Because we enjoy them.

Honestly, you're getting backlash because of...

the ridiculous glorification of this thing.

[Klokinator]

Okay, fair enough. The great majority of people find it to be a daunting task though. Even those of us that enjoy it (Like me) find drawing out a map, sketching in the details, and trying to make a consistent appearance overall very tiring. I mean, I enjoy making advance wars maps, but putting a map on the forum after two hours of work and getting criticized heavily isn't something most people are up for. Trying to match that -one- tile that makes all the others line up properly is very annoying.

the ridiculous glorification of this thing.

Again, fair enough.

[Siuloir]

I just don't understand this focus of "if the map takes less time thanks to automation it's automatically inferior to hand drawn hurr durr".

That's not what people have been saying at all, though.

[Topaz Light]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty what people are saying doesn't have as much to do with how individual tiles fit together aesthetically as with the game flow of the maps as a whole. The generator can turn out maps that are perfectly fine to look at (although some of them do look weird, particularly the boat ones), but it doesn't seem to be able to pay any particular attention to how the map would actually play.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a very helpful utility and I'm sure many of the maps it makes can be fixed up to play much better than what the generator itself puts out by default, but I think the point of what others are saying is that the generator doesn't exactly single-handedly solve all map creation difficulties.