next version of FE7 HHM 0% growths: control enemy glitch?

[dondon151]

horace, are you using ninis grace on canas on turn 1, or are you dancing someone over on the right?

[General Horace]

I was just having ninian dance priscilla to spam for experience every turn with barrier and physic (I don't expect you need any more physic uses than what Pent's provides). NInian doesn't need to dance anyone useful to 3 turn.

I had him use a pure water though, don't know if you need those for later, looked like you had lots.

She gets 123 exp this way, I don't think any other unit would accomplish getting as much.

also hilariously enough i had not switched everyone's growths to zero initially and Rath got a blank.

Edited December 10, 2014 by General Horace

[dondon151]

i'm confused. how did jasmine attack raven on turn 2? you must have rescue-dropped him.

[General Horace]

i'm confused. how did jasmine attack raven on turn 2? you must have rescue-dropped him.

affirmative

i would expand on it but i've gotta catch a plane so if you have any query beyond that i'll answer it tomorrow

Edited December 10, 2014 by General Horace

[dondon151]

i can't even come close to 3-turning this map without marcus. i can't figure out how to get heath any kills because he ORKOs nothing on EP, and i can't figure out how to deal with the nomads and cavaliers at the top of the map.

i suppose i've always been bad at rout objectives but this really takes the cake...

[kirbymastah]

that run wasn't LTC by any standard of "L."

as an example of a trick that interrupts the flow of a session, there's the desert item trick. i do think consistency is important, and for those of you saying that the CEG should be used because its impact is small, the logic works the other way, too.

Fair enough. I'm mostly saying that as I've seen countless discussions like this before for speedrunning, and a lot of people who are anti-glitch generally think they're so gamebreaking and make the game boring when I doubt that's the case here, so ECG being "too gamebreaking" isn't exactly a legit argument against it. Again, I'm looking forward to watching your LTC 0% playthrough regardless of your decision :P

[dondon151]

if i were speedrunning, i would CEG without hesitation. but this is a bit different as far as context goes.

[General Horace]

Why exactly does Isadora need the body ring? I'm 99% sure i've found a way to 3 turn with 700 exp without the ring, I'm not sure if I can work getting it into my strategy.

As for Heath's exp, he kills the first boss on turn 2, and a mage canas weakens on the player phase on the EP, along with countering a monk. He kills the other boss on turn 3, along with the same monk he weakened from before (Priscilla physic's him)

Rath aggros the first nomad and cavalier after killing a knight on turn 1, and he kills the first nomad on turn 2 EP (he orkos with Brave) and draws the cavalier. Him and hawkeye can combine to kill the 1st cavalier (rig Hawkeye to not crit or rig a killer bow crit with Rath, one or the other). Raven orko's the other nomad with the hand axe on turn 2 EP since the boss breaks his killing edge. The last cavalier kinda sucks to kill, I needed a Hawkeye killer crit or two brave axe hits, not sure which is more reliable (1 52% crit @ 64 hit vs 2 54 hits @ 22 crit) i'm inclined to say brave is slightly better odds but i'm too lazy to figure it out.

The only other stuff that really needs to happen is Raven needs a crit + hit on each boss with the KE, and Pent needs to tank a certain amount of damage so wyverns target him over Fiora on turn 3 (maybe, not sure where the wyverns show up on HM).

[dondon151]

Why exactly does Isadora need the body ring? I'm 99% sure i've found a way to 3 turn with 700 exp without the ring, I'm not sure if I can work getting it into my strategy.

she needs it to ORKO some enemies in genesis before the magic seal lifts (actually just a sage i think), i recall she needs it in FFO (remember i'm recruiting wallace), and she also needs it in cog to double monks with a javelin, but i haven't even hammered out cog yet. if you're deploying canas on the map and he's covering the enemies from the left, he should be able to reach a body ring tile on turn 3 unless you really need him to hold back. the wyvern rider that spawns near him on turn 3 PP has a steel lance and can be manipulated to have a low enough HP + res to be ORKO'd with flux.

As for Heath's exp, he kills the first boss on turn 2, and a mage canas weakens on the player phase on the EP, along with countering a monk. He kills the other boss on turn 3, along with the same monk he weakened from before (Priscilla physic's him)

Rath aggros the first nomad and cavalier after killing a knight on turn 1, and he kills the first nomad on turn 2 EP (he orkos with Brave) and draws the cavalier. Him and hawkeye can combine to kill the 1st cavalier (rig Hawkeye to not crit or rig a killer bow crit with Rath, one or the other). Raven orko's the other nomad with the hand axe on turn 2 EP since the boss breaks his killing edge. The last cavalier kinda sucks to kill, I needed a Hawkeye killer crit or two brave axe hits, not sure which is more reliable (1 52% crit @ 64 hit vs 2 54 hits @ 22 crit) i'm inclined to say brave is slightly better odds but i'm too lazy to figure it out.

i guess where i'm logistically confused is what you do with canas, raven, and heath on turn 1. if heath kills paul on turn 2, that means that either raven was free to move on turn 2 or raven countered with a KE on turn 1. but there doesn't seem to be a way to attack paul on turn 2 while also being in melee range on jasmine, so either you countered paul on turn 1 or you attacked paul on turn 2 and then rescue dropped raven with fiora and either ninian or some other character.

also, heath can't KO paul from raven's KE hit + crit, which means that you either fit in chip damage from elsewhere or raven got a double crit..

The only other stuff that really needs to happen is Raven needs a crit + hit on each boss with the KE, and Pent needs to tank a certain amount of damage so wyverns target him over Fiora on turn 3 (maybe, not sure where the wyverns show up on HM).

if fiora's grabbing filla's might, then she's not in range of any wyvern rider reinforcements.

and actually, depending on where pent is, if fiora can grab filla's might on turn 2 somehow, she can get the body ring on turn 3 and pull the bottom wyvern rider reinforcement within pent's range. or something.

[General Horace]

she needs it to ORKO some enemies in genesis before the magic seal lifts (actually just a sage i think), i recall she needs it in FFO (remember i'm recruiting wallace), and she also needs it in cog to double monks with a javelin, but i haven't even hammered out cog yet. if you're deploying canas on the map and he's covering the enemies from the left, he should be able to reach a body ring tile on turn 3 unless you really need him to hold back. the wyvern rider that spawns near him on turn 3 PP has a steel lance and can be manipulated to have a low enough HP + res to be ORKO'd with flux.

i guess where i'm logistically confused is what you do with canas, raven, and heath on turn 1. if heath kills paul on turn 2, that means that either raven was free to move on turn 2 or raven countered with a KE on turn 1. but there doesn't seem to be a way to attack paul on turn 2 while also being in melee range on jasmine, so either you countered paul on turn 1 or you attacked paul on turn 2 and then rescue dropped raven with fiora and either ninian or some other character.

also, heath can't KO paul from raven's KE hit + crit, which means that you either fit in chip damage from elsewhere or raven got a double crit..

if fiora's grabbing filla's might, then she's not in range of any wyvern rider reinforcements.

and actually, depending on where pent is, if fiora can grab filla's might on turn 2 somehow, she can get the body ring on turn 3 and pull the bottom wyvern rider reinforcement within pent's range. or something.

The sages have 12 speed right? Promoted Heath wouldn't be able to do her job then, I assume. I'm pretty sure the other two uses definately aren't needed though.

turn 1, canas used heal on Raven after he handaxed the mage near the start and was rescuedropped by heath/fiora

the wyverns suicide on canas, along with the archer.

And yeah, it appears that in this load while rigging the wyvern durability Paul spawned with 1 less defence. I'd have to figure something else out in that case.

Raven can get into melee range of jasmine on turn 2 here though.

WRT to Canas, the mage I have the cursor on is blocking him from moving ahead unless he's killed.

fiora does orko him, but there's usually another mage next to Paul that she kills (raven had the handaxe equipped here because I forgot to equip the KE and killed him) and Heath needs the exp from said mage to reach 700 I think (in a successful run, I got 715 exp, not sure how fiora killing the mage would alter things, i'll try it out).

Fiora has totally got attacked by a wyvern before, I think it's the turn 2 dude that spawns to the south though, he's normally not in range of anything so he probably flies towards Pent.

But I did manage to three turn without the ring, heath hits level 10 so he's promotable for the next chapter if you need another 8 move dude.

I think I might be able to get the ring though, give me a bit. Only if Paul spawns with one less defence though, otherwise i'd need a double crit I guess.

Edited December 10, 2014 by General Horace

[dondon151]

the wyverns that start near jasmine also don't fully suicide on canas unless you rig their durability.

it's so lame that canas doesn't get even +1 mag on promo. 17 atk is not enough.

EDIT: in light of the information in the above first sentence, it might just be worth not deploying ninian here and using legault instead...

Edited December 11, 2014 by dondon151

[General Horace]

Yeah, I rigged their hp/res so it works out obviously. The thwomps near Rath need to have proper HP/def so he orko's with a brave bow too.

honestly at least fe7 enemies are lame enough that 10 magic and 11 speed orko's almost half the map anyway.

EDIT: I think i can do it if Heath kills Paul with a javelin @ 40 hit. It does require a Raven double crit though.

Edited December 11, 2014 by General Horace

[dondon151]

ugh fiora doesn't kill the mage next to paul without rigging spd or durability either

[General Horace]

She does kill the elfire mage in Canas's way though (unless he proc's defence and hp or something when reloading for Wyvern HP/res) at the very least.

I think I've figured out another three turn, not sure if it gets 700 exp though.

[dondon151]

i still can't figure it out. rath keeps dying and i have no free units to kill the wyvern riders that canas leaves alive.

[General Horace]

I don't think it's possible to reach the 700 exp threshold without rigging the wyvern stats.

Rath should really only face death on turn 1, and odds are in his favour.

That being said I don't think i'll make any more progress today

EDIT: cleared it in 3 turns with 703 exp... the HP/Res of 4 wyverns needs to be rigged though, which is pretty annoying. Aside from Raven double critting the first boss, the rest of the chapter really isn't that bad either. I dunno if that's too much abuse for your liking though. I'll try to put some screencaps together at some point but I don't think i'll have time tonight.

Edited December 11, 2014 by General Horace

[dondon151]

i might have an idea for a 3-turn without resetting to rig enemy stats, but i probably can't pick up the ocean seal (which i need to recruit farina)...

basically hector needs to kill the near-death wyvern riders with ninian's help, which means that ninian can't dance priscilla. in order to get more EXP, priscilla probably has to use the sleep staff a couple of times. neither hector nor priscilla have the time to step on the ocean seal tiles.

one other thing that i can do if i fall slightly short on EXP is to re-do kinship's bond and not give rath the bosskill; at 1 level lower he gains about 3 more EXP per kill.

the only qualm i have about rigging starting enemy stats is that i've never done it in any other chapter. if i were to record the map, i'd have to include starting the map and then suspend -> restart to shift the RNG. that's not really a problem, but it's something i'd rather not do if i had the option to.

EDIT: i have a strategy that successfully 3-turns with 676 EXP and no need to reset for the starting wyverns. i end up deploying lucius instead of priscilla in order to help kill the wyverns that canas can't finish off.

now how to get that last 24 EXP... rath gets 4 kills, so him entering the map at L9 instead of L10 will give him an extra 12 EXP. lucius gets 3 kills plus 2 rounds of combat, and he could enter the map at L3 instead of L4. i'll change their levels in the memory viewer tomorrow and see if i can get to 700 EXP.

EDIT 2: i can get 700 EXP exactly if i go back to chapter 20 and prevent lucius from reaching L4, then prevent rath from reaching L10 in chapter 22. hector also takes a kill in chapter 21 that elevates him to L8; i can switch the attack order on the kill so that he stays at L7.

Edited December 11, 2014 by dondon151

[dondon151]

lucius saves the day, and this chapter can go to hell.

enjoy the variations on the desert item trick

and a big thanks to horace for giving me at least 4 great discrete ideas to 3-turn this chapter with (exactly) 700 EXP gained

now i need to figure out how to shave a 5-turn of genesis down to a 4-turn

EDIT: https://db.tt/xaFsYxxv

here's a link for the chapter 23x battery save, if any intrepid players want to try this out.

Edited December 13, 2014 by dondon151

[General Horace]

thank god you got it, lucius mvp, 700 exp exactly is pretty crazy

i might give 23x a shot tomorrow, but i'm pretty behind on some stuff I have to do around the house (namely an operational kitchen sink).

i've played 23x like 3 times ever though so i might not be very helpful anyway

who did you give the chapter 22 bosskill to instead of Rath? (it probably doesn't matter tbh though)

Edited December 13, 2014 by General Horace

[Florete]

What does that say about potential mine usage?

(the strat is pretty amazeballs btw)

[Belf]

I fucking hate rout maps. I too like to do 0% runs, and I feel like rout maps never really make it possible to have an "elegant," or efficient, strategy unless you happen to have an OP unit that can still reliably ORKO all enemy units on the map. Of course, I'm not talking about fe7, (fe9 maniac mode, chapter 18 is a good example, fuck that map). In general, it seems that rout maps are all about brute forcing your way through with whatever decent characters you have and are generally favored by players who routinely rout every map anyway (non-efficiency players). Otherwise, it just involves a lot of unattractive rigging to get a low turn count.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Belf

[sim]

that's a pretty great strat! cool stuff using canto to snag two items.

[dondon151]

who did you give the chapter 22 bosskill to instead of Rath? (it probably doesn't matter tbh though)

isadora got the bosskill

What does that say about potential mine usage?

i'm probably not going to use CEG if it can't shave chapter 23 from 3 turns to 2 turns.

I fucking hate rout maps. I too like to do 0% runs, and I feel like rout maps never really make it possible to have an "elegant," or efficient, strategy unless you happen to have an OP unit that can still reliably ORKO all enemy units on the map. Of course, I'm not talking about fe7, (fe9 maniac mode, chapter 18 is a good example, fuck that map). In general, it seems that rout maps are all about brute forcing your way through with whatever decent characters you have and are generally favored by players who routinely rout every map anyway (non-efficiency players). Otherwise, it just involves a lot of unattractive rigging to get a low turn count.

i mostly agree; i think rout maps are actually way easier with growths because you have many units who can rambo all over the map. i play almost exclusively 0% growths or FE12, so i'm not that good at planning a rout. FE9 routs are probably nightmares, and FE10 routs are frustrating because you have only laguz to work with.

chapter 23x is even worse because it's rout, most enemies 2HKO all player units, and there's stupid shit like LRTs and 60+ hit status flying around.

Edited December 13, 2014 by dondon151

[PKL]

Lucius OP plz nerf

[Mekkah]

That chapter is going to be so much fun to commentate. The Killing Edge breaking, the double item finding with Fiora, the way Lucius, Rath and Heath snag a bunch of EXP, Canas going on a solo mission...