Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?

[Knusperkeks]

Archer Chrom is great in my playthrough. I didn't reclass Chrom at lv 10 though. I waited until lv 14.

Just because you can re-class Chrom/Vaike doesn't mean that it's the best approach to the game.

On the other hand, reclassing Donnel is the only way to get him out of the trash that is the villager class.

[Irysa]

Knusperkeks, I think that your calcs for Donnel are incorrect. Where are you getting him only have a 70% hp growth from?

His growths should be this as a villager

105 75 35 65 70 100 65 40

Edited March 1, 2015 by Irysa

[Knusperkeks]

I took it from http://serenesforest.net/awakening/characters/growth-rates/base/

This is incorrect since it's donnel's base growth without class. I'll correct it.

Edit: I'll use these numbers now: http://serenesforest.net/awakening/characters/growth-rates/full/

Edited March 1, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[General Horace]

10/1 fighter donnel

34.45 HP, 17.75 str, 3.15 mag, 11.85 skl, 13.3 spd, 20 lck, 11.85 def, 3.6 res

This is what he posted. It's not what I calculated. Even if you add +5 HP as fighter, he only has ~31.3 hp.

Consequently all the math in his post is flawed.

i'm also getting 34.45 hp by calculating it manually. I'm not actually sure how you're getting 31.3.

1.05*9 is 9.45, and this added to his HP from classes and his base (16 base, +4 from fighter, +5 from skill) is 34.45.

edit - ninja'd and still think donnel's a worthless turd

Edited March 1, 2015 by General Horace

[Vascela]

You are telling me to disagree with it without addressing [probably] the 3 largest points against Donnel?

Well for starters, to say Panne "only has better defense and flying" seems a little misleading. A 2 point stat advantage doesn't really mean much, that's true, but if that were the case, then bringing up growths doesn't actually put Donny in a good position. Having a 10% better growth translates to 1 stat every ten levels. Now it's worth noting that Panne does suffer from 30% Str deficit (the actually only notable growth worth mentioning). Granted, Donnel will end up with quite the Str lead. The problem is, however, that Axe users have the ridiculous AT advantage due to weapons--not growth potential. A steel axe has 11 whopping AT (3 more than the sword counterpart). It just goes to show that Panne with axes will cover up 2-3 AT worth due to weapon alone compared to your sword and lance users. It isn't that Don is outperforming her, it's that axe users don't mind losing out on STR. The other stats show that Don will only have a 2-3 stat lead over the course of 30 level ups--all while losing out to flying and Mov (arguably the most potent stat in the game).

3 Weakness is nothing. It's player error to fall into that miscalculation. Now it does allow Don to be able to be in more situations without that weakness, but from what I can tell, this is a tier debate. And if we're regarding tiers, it means you are at least someone at the top of your game. An S rank FE7 HHM tier list doesn't concern the players who don't play for ranked. Being able to assess the situation and use up to 8 Mov to isolate the targets that don't have Xbane on you is a player skill factor, not a character factor. That being said, post Wyvern Lord, she'll have access to beast killers which will basically eliminate a large factor of enemies regarding that weakness.

It's always the case in FE that the early game maps are the hardest. You have less resources, units, and enemies don't care about your end game team. Chapter 2 is harder than chapter 22. Chapter 4 is harder than chapter 24. It's a management issue--you just aren't stabilized yet. Once you get your grounding the game gets easier. This is a very large selling point to why availability and high bases are an extremely large factor when regarding a character's usefulness. We don't care if you end up with 3 stats more than another character 30 levels down the line. Anyone can ORKO later down the line with 30 levels to their name.

For the next part is semantics about competition. That I'm not willing to really get into. On the other hand, if both were to get a second seal to get into their preferred class (just for arguments sake), Panne benefits morefrom Wyvern Rider than Don benefits from Fighter (or Merc). The jump to extra Mov, access to range fairly soon, etc. is much better than "welp, I'm finally out of the worst class in the game; now I'm in a new mediocre class."

Based from what I see K posting, I'm not very trusting of these stats, but I will assume some sort of precision. Don does make use of AT, but I don't think that's a very large selling point in his favor. I also see that Don is only beating on Panne in sheer tonics. Which is a little embarrassing considering he's supposed to be a powerhouse. It's also one thing to say "Panne has better growths, but it's by ~10 in str/spd/def each, so the leads don't get really massive until super late."

Then we get "Donnel's growth leads are 10-15 points each in HP/str/spd/def." You look one way and condemn something, then you turn the other to praise the "not really massive leads"

And Veteran > Aptitude, But that's a story for a difference day!

[Knusperkeks]

i'm also getting 34.45 hp by calculating it manually. I'm not actually sure how you're getting 31.3.

I made an error, it's corrected now. My formula reflects the same smash fanatic's stats after fixing the growth numbers.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Irysa]

A steel axe has 11 whopping AT (3 more than the sword counterpart). It just goes to show that Panne with axes will cover up 2-3 AT worth due to weapon alone compared to your sword and lance users. It isn't that Don is outperforming her, it's that axe users don't mind losing out on STR. The other stats show that Don will only have a 2-3 stat lead over the course of 30 level ups--all while losing out to flying and Mov (arguably the most potent stat in the game).

The gap isn't that large because of weapon rank bonuses.

Also, why is mov the best stat in the game? Can you articulate? We're already going hilariously slow so I'm not sure how mov matters an awful lot.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Irysa

[Vascela]

You are almost spending an equal time form E-C as you are from C-A (where the bonus would matter)

It's worth noting that regardless of pace, 8 Mov lets you hit farther targets, escape from generic movement targets if low on HP, and having flying bonus ignores terrain movement penalties.

[Knusperkeks]

Based from what I see K posting, I'm not very trusting of these stats, but I will assume some sort of precision.

This is the best approach. I made a crucial mistake in my calculations, and that's my fault (though it is 3:30 a.m. in germany), so please forgive me for that.

I'd like for this discussion to continue on the current path. It's much more fruititious in the long run, and we can actually learn more about the game from each other by sharing information. I love it.

To get back on topic, I also believe that the flying ability is very strong in this game. Especially for tactical maneuvers like flying to the eastern island in chapter 16. (random example from the top of my head)

Edited March 1, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Irysa]

You are almost spending an equal time form E-C as you are from C-A (where the bonus would matter)

False. 35 instances of combat get you from E to C. 55 instances get you from C to A.

It's worth noting that regardless of pace, 8 Mov lets you hit farther targets, escape from generic movement targets if low on HP, and having flying bonus ignores terrain movement penalties.

Why does hitting farther targets matter if pace is irrelevant? Why do terrain movement penalities matter? Let them come to you. Escaping from enemies whilst low on hp can be dealt with in manners that don't require high movement, such as chugging healing items, get physic staffed, get rescue staffed, etc. If we don't care about turns, more mov basically saves you a bit of money but money is pretty superfluous in this game, especially so if we're allowing dlc/grinding or whatever.

[General Horace]

even if you're playing super slowly, having more move/flight can help in getting some items that thieves steal (while they are pretty irrelevant when grinding or w/e) or doing stuff like saving the stupid villagers that suicide themselves on pegasus knights in one of the early paralogues.

ane even if you're playing super slowly, like someone else mentioned earlier, 8 movement is always better than 6. If you get unlucky and miss an 85 or something, the odds of an 8 move unit being in range to help remedy the mishap is much higher than a 6 move unit.

[XeKr]

edit - ninja'd and still think donnel's a worthless turd

And I still agree. But why is the key point under consideration. It certainly doesn’t seem like that’s the case from the spreadsheet (currently not even showing later in the game when Donnel’s growths really kick in) and our friend smash fanatic. >_>

You are telling me to disagree with it without addressing [probably] the 3 largest points against Donnel?

*snip*

I’m showing why we need something of that ilk to make truly compelling arguments.

I’m going to ask you a direct question (apologizes in advance of any perceived condescension). Do you honestly think your response comprehensively, or even adequately covered his main points? Yes/no is fine, I don't particularly care if you want to defend yourself.

(to be clear, I feel you made some fairly good points, but a lot were tangential to the point at hand or read like “no u r wrong” without substantial, hard evidence the other way)

You are almost spending an equal time form E-C as you are from C-A (where the bonus would matter)

It's worth noting that regardless of pace, 8 Mov lets you hit farther targets, escape from generic movement targets if low on HP, and having flying bonus ignores terrain movement penalties.

It seems pretty obvious to me you cap at A relatively fast and spend most of the game there.

Why does it matter when Donnel gets there anyway? He gets there.

He also gets defensive bonuses, which can be pretty big for forts and mountains. He’s also not scared of Bows/Wind/Beastkillers and so he can just leisurely walk through everything (easier that way too, no? Less thinking and chances for mistakes).

Discounting pace, you still telling me Donnel and Panne are not even comparable? 2 move and flight is still that good compared to a stat lead, no effective weakness, terrain bonuses, and Armthrift/Sol?

Edited March 1, 2015 by XeKr

[Vascela]

The jump from E-C and C-A are roughly very close (considering you do get 2 per combat) having a +/- 2-3 chapters is definitely reasonable for me to say that. Post A rank, yes, but from the time C-A is indeed close to equal the time during E-C (a much more notable time period). When we live in the A rank lifestyle, then Str becomes moot when you factor in availability to use braves and legendary weapons. But the time from E-C is easily identifiable to weapon constraints (read: no A access)

My answer to you is this: Donnel's growths are not as amazing as you perceive. Seeing aptitude on top of poor growths to make the a little bit above average is not that good. The additional 1 stat point every 10 levels is not a lead worth recognition considering he has bases that abysmal. When stats are near cap, it doesn't matter that he has a 3-4 stat lead. That's nothing from the work you've put in that anybody could have succeeded with.

The defensive bonuses of terrain only matter in early chapters of the game, and they die off in use as late game progresses. Early game +2 def > late game +2 def. Those stats don't translate to value in the last few chapters of the game. Don can capitalize on them during the early game... but so does Panne before reclassing. By the time you second seal, it should be noted around that time you already have access to Def tonic (which is the equivalent barring the small heal), and that is not needed in the later parts of the game.

Discounting the pace, 2 Mov and Flight is still that good compared to 150g and poor player execution.

[General Horace]

And I still agree. But why is the key point under consideration. It certainly doesn’t seem like that’s the case from the spreadsheet (currently not even showing later in the game when Donnel’s growths really kick in) and our friend smash fanatic. >_>

I’m showing why we need something of that ilk to make truly compelling arguments.

I’m going to ask you a direct question (apologizes in advance of any perceived condescension). Do you honestly think your response comprehensively (or adequately) covered his main points? (to be clear, I feel you made some fairly good points, but a lot were tangential to the point at hand or read like “no u r wrong” without substantial, hard evidence the other way)

It seems pretty obvious to me you cap at A relatively fast and spend most of the game there.

Why does it matter when Donnel gets there anyway? He gets there.

He also gets defensive bonuses, which can be pretty big for forts and mountains. He’s also not scared of Bows/Wind/Beastkillers and so he can just leisurely walk through everything (easier that way too, no? Less thinking and chances for mistakes).

Discounting pace, you still telling me Donnel and Panne are not even comparable? 2 move and flight is still that good compared to a stat lead, no effective weakness, terrain bonuses, and Armthrift/Sol?

What mode are we assuming here? Why are we assuming Donnel is an equal level? If we assume infinate exp from grinding, what's stopping us from just capping out whoever we're comparing Donnel to, in which case they'll likely win unless they're someone like Virion who has no proc skills. It's stupid yes, but it's very easy (albeit very time consuming).

If we're on an easier difficulty, what use is Sol if Donnel (or whoever is using it takes no damage? What use is armsthrift is we're using DLC or grinding in general?

Also I might be kind of slow here since i'm far too lazy to read this entire topic to find it, but is the spreadsheet you're referring to the one on the last page with Donnel/Vaike/Chrom stats?

EDIT: shit, that was a lot of questions

Edited March 1, 2015 by General Horace

[Knusperkeks]

I looked at Smash Fanatic's post. I don't know what kind of "tier list" they are refering to, but I never used Panne in any of my playthroughs, same with Lon'qu.

I have a single one where I trained everyone, it's lunatic difficulty. Thats the one I used to experiment with and learn more about the game (and beat tson secret path).

Personally, I'm talking about L+ classic no risen skirmish, no dlc. Any other mode isn't really worth having such an elaborate discussion over.

Of course thats my opinion, feel free to talk about normal-lunatic, but please make note of it.

They're comparing Fighter Donnel to Wyvern Rider Panne/Lon'qu. And Hero Donnel with Wyvern Lord Panne/Lon'qu, which is fine. Donnel wins by stats, the other two by utility.

I argue that the renown second seal is best used on Avatar, since he/she is hitting lv 20 really fast, which makes it a necessity to use the second seal on her, lest one falls behind by wasting exp on a capped character.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[XeKr]

@General Horace: Pick a mode/conditions/ground-rules, smash fanatic was arguing on Hard I think.

While I feel comfortable enough knowing the essence of what smash (or other such debaters) would say here (I'm sure one could peruse the link or google things, if interested), I’m going to just let the remarks stand for posterity, or until discussion becomes more genuinely interesting, as I have little enough time to argue positions I actually like. >_>

Edited March 1, 2015 by XeKr

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

My experience generally comes from Lunatic+ Classic, No DLC, No Renown, No Grinding, No Nos.

Panne is generally pretty solid, but takes a Second Seal and has to go through 4 levels of Taguel, which is 1-range locked, which is bad news when Counter's around. Even after reclassing, she's stuck at 1 range thanks to E Axes. Not exactly the smoothest power growth, but she's at least tanky-ish when leveling (at least she doesn't immediately implode if something sneezes at her).

Donnel has the honour of having Aptitude work against him. His Str keeps up with his HP closely that if even if he does get semi-online, he's not only stuck at 1 range thanks to E weapons twice, but if he ever has to face Counter (and he will with how often the mode spams it), he will murder his own face swiftly and mercilessly.

[Knusperkeks]

I’m going to just let the remarks stand for posterity, or until discussion becomes more genuinely interesting, as I have little enough time to argue positions I actually like. >_>

I don't know which remarks you mean, maybe I'm just tired. Does this mean you want to leave the debate just a few hours after we* finally burried the hatchet? It just got good. :(

Edit: We as in, everyone in this thread

Edited March 1, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[XeKr]

Sorry. :\

Perhaps later. After that initial rush of posts, tbh it’s lower priority than the Sumia thingy, which is of more immediate interest to me, even if it’s mostly died down (I probably will make a topic someday)

Edited March 1, 2015 by XeKr

[-Cynthia-]

Maybe Donnel is more usable at base in Hard Mode or Normal Mode, but he just seems too far behind the curve in Lunatic Mode. Panne's not great at base either (1 range lock while being 2HKOd by everything with no WTA), but she can double things with a speed Pair Up and only has 4 levels to go before she can reclass into something useful.

[eclipse]

I'm using that size 48 font and red characters in an attempt to get through to the blockheads defending donnel. I bring pristine proof, yet you ignore everything and answer with pathetic excuses for arguments.

The vast majority of people who actually know how to play this game agree that Donnel sucks. This is when somebody comes in and claims "Donnel isn't the worst unit". This is your claim. If you claim something, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

The reason why you do not provide math is that it would serve as proof for my point.

. . .why does it matter that this person thinks that Donnel isn't the worst? Like, I reserve that kind of judgment for those who I think are attempting to incite a riot with an unpopular opinion (and I do have a method to my madness), and I don't think this is happening here.

However, the math would be interesting, but for experience gain. I know he gets a lot of experience per kill, but is it that much more than everyone else?

Is this assuming DLC btw?

Because I'm not exactly sure where or when Donnel is getting to level 10 to seal in the first place, or if we need to give him 2 forges (villager and then for his reclass) to secure kills properly. He can be fed the entire second half of his paralogue without much hassle, but Chapter 4 and 5 seem a bit too demanding for him to get anything other than the odd magic user. C6 seems more feasible, and C8 and P2 pretty easy to soak in, but I think you'd probably need a forge (Dark Mages have non negligble def). Then assuming reclass to Merc, he needs another Bronze Sword forge. That's quite taxing for the earlygame wallet...

(Hard mode musings)

The most painful time for him is the first few levels of villager, when he doesn't have access to the forge (unless you prepped ahead of time and give him one from your inventory). IIRC, the best time to do Paralogue 1 is after Chapter 4, so you train/boost someone with Lon'qu. Chapter 5 is pretty painful, thanks to the reinforcements - I might be able to feed him a weakened swordy, but I have to do so carefully, thanks to those wyverns (seriously, who puts those things so early?). Assuming you managed to get him some experience in Chapter 5, he should be able to kill an archer or two on Paralogue 2 and reclass - I usually wait until Level 15 for Underdog.

Once reclassed (at level 10), and assuming that Aptitude was always active, he should have 27-29 HP, 13-14 STR, 15ish SPD, and 11-12 DEF on average as a mercenary. That's about a level 10 Chrom on average (someone smack me if my math is off); thus, I think he'll be able to survive just fine without a sword forge. This is mostly because villager bases SUCK - reclassing him is like a promotion, minus the gigantic experience nerf (think Panne). I can see why people would want to use Donnel during the main game, but IMO I'd rather use the time to get other units up to par.

The additional 1 stat point every 10 levels is not a lead worth recognition considering he has bases that abysmal. When stats are near cap, it doesn't matter that he has a 3-4 stat lead.

20% increase is one stat point every FIVE levels - or at least +2 to a given stat, assuming early promotions/reclassing. It's pretty helpful, but if I want to see gigantic numbers everywhere, I'll just get DLC Marth.

[Vascela]

20% is one every 5, but Donnel doesn't have 20% leads. His actual bases before apt cancel out half of it. Villager!Donnel has the exact same HP and Str growth as Vaike post aptitude. Upon reclass, the only lead that's notable against Vaike is Spd. Having 10-15% growth leads doesn't really justify much.

When was the last time someone argued to use Donnel because of his Spd values? Not as much as someone arguing for his Hp/Str/Def prowess--and that is not really above the curve.

[Knusperkeks]

. . .why does it matter that this person thinks that Donnel isn't the worst? Like, I reserve that kind of judgment for those who I think are attempting to incite a riot with an unpopular opinion (and I do have a method to my madness), and I don't think this is happening here.

However, the math would be interesting, but for experience gain. I know he gets a lot of experience per kill, but is it that much more than everyone else?

I have as much problems with people who believe Donnel is not the worst as I have with people who believe in god, none.

The issue here is that they claim something without proof, and expect others to believe it.

I went out of my way to show them how foolish that kind of perspective is by appealing to their emotions taking the same approach to the subject as they do.

After that happened they finally brought up pertinent arguments.

From there on, the discussion evolved into something more than an utter waste of time became worthwhile to pursue in a scientific sense.

I won't calculate average experience gains, because that formula involves the units as well as the enemies level.

I would have to develop two different runs, each one using/not using Donnel, and track every single round of combat between any unit whatsoever to fabricate something useful.

Calculating average stats at certain thresholds is easy. Scripting every single round of combat according to your wishes is improbable in regards to being forced to reset each time your unit accidenally crits or misses an enemy for every single enemy unit in the whole game, twice.

[eclipse]

I won't calculate average experience gains, because that formula involves the units as well as the enemies level.

I would have to develop two different runs, each one using/not using Donnel, and track every single round of combat between any unit whatsoever to fabricate something useful.

Calculating average stats at certain thresholds is easy. Scripting every single round of combat according to your wishes is improbable in regards to being forced to reset each time your unit accidenally crits or misses an enemy for every single enemy unit in the whole game, twice.

It's possible to ballpark it - for example, it's pretty clear that Donnel will gain more experience per kill than someone like Frederick (extreme example). Donnel can hit at least level 4 on Hard in his own paralogue, assuming you fed him archers, and there's three that are relatively easy to trap (the one in the treasure room and the two in the boss area). This method probably won't work in L+, because of Pass/Counter. He should be able to hit D lances, or be pretty close to it, as well.

I don't think precise numbers are absolutely necessary, but as long as the ballpark is in this dimension, it should be okay.

[Knusperkeks]

This is pure conjecture on my part without any proof:

I'd assume that a unit with internal of lv 1 needs "X" raw experience (without taking into account your own/enemy levels) to get to lv 10.

The same unit with a total level of ((4 cumulative level from reclassing at lv 10)+1(displayed level))=5, would get to around lv 7 or 8 after their reclass.

I'd assume a unit at lv 10 getting "X" experience would reach lv 15 or 16. Again, zero proof.

Feel free to calculate it yourself if you want. I'm interested, but not interested enough to put effort into it, surely you can empathize with that notion, eclipse.