Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?

[XeKr]

Isn't life just like arbitrary tho?????

Discussion evolves naturally. The original topic mostly died out and this is still relevant in the context of judging characters. Given the number/length/quality of posts (with MATH) and people who chimed in, some people like discussing it. I'm definitely glad you told us of a topic you don't care about though. >_>

But I was thinking of making a new topic anyways, for this purpose.

Edited February 26, 2015 by XeKr

[Knusperkeks]

The original topic didn't die. Since people generally agree that building a tier list for lunatic or higher isn't worthwile, this is essentially a reverse tier list. We started finding the worst and worked ourselves up from there. That's why I started mentioning characters like Gaius, even though Gaius has - without a doubt - strong points and could never be considered worse than donnel, objectively speaking.

[Vascela]

@Carmine

My thoughts on Armsthrift are somewhat negative. I want to say there is a happy medium between complete garbage and best skill ever. It has no combat value unless your weapon will break (An Apo example would be if you were V/V'ing and your strat revolved around using 21+ uses of Ceclia's Gale in one end phase, notably the first turn of the 2nd phase). Of course, the real answer to that situation is... don't end your turn on a silly tile like that lol. But for in the game world, you never have 100% proc. But does that make it completely useless? I want to say there is some value in extending forged weapon life--even if it isn't combat related (as using too many weapon usage than you can handle). The game does throw so much money your way, but I want to say there is a luxury benefit for it. I think it falls under the same category as PavGis. You never [should] bank on it happening, but it's nice to have.

And I want to make it perfectly clear, that it isn't that I find Sumia to be the worst unit (making sure people know that my vote is definitely Donnel as I posted earlier). It's just that I want to note that Sumia isn't really that great at what she does. Sumia definitely has certain flaws that put her back. Sumia certainly has pros that go her way too. While I do think Sully is a better spouse for Chrom than Sumia on Lunatic assuming we aren't sweeping with FeMU x Chrom, I also don't think this is the topic for that discussion (nor do I want to continue it).

[XeKr]

The original topic didn't die. Since people generally agree that building a tier list for lunatic or higher isn't worthwile, this is essentially a reverse tier list. We started finding the worst and worked ourselves up from there. That's why I started mentioning characters like Gaius, even though Gaius has - without a doubt - strong points and could never be considered worse than donnel, objectively speaking.

Ah, well fair enough. The way I see it is, besides a few driveby posts that didn't instigate much discussion, things were already wandering like with the Ricken statbooster thing.

This particular tangent really started when we were idly discussing uses for Virion. As a Frederick Pair up? Okay, but some contended Sumia is way better (and is also a bad frontliner). And then we got into whether Sumia should be in Frederick's pocket or fighting. So, pretty natural line of discussion; not too far from the tree.

edit: for posterity's sake, if I or someone doesn't make a new topic because of laziness or time or whatever, then I'll just state here that Irysa and I seem to agree on a majority of positions, wrt to efficiency and ranking characters, to a very high degree. He explained some stuff very well.

edit2: Actually will reply to this too for posterity and because it's more directly relevant. If Donnel is really bad as many feel itt, I want to point out the absurdity of Sumia~=Donnel (approx).

Sumia doesn't need a second seal to do this. Those are a big deal in earlygame.

Edit: I'm going to spam edits too now, so we're on even ground.

With 8 movement and flight, you can evade that which is strong (wind/bows) and attack that which is weak. You can also occupy territory of importance much more easily (like forts)

Fine, fair, not really something I care to argue/discuss. However, the whole point of this tangent (of a tangent) was that, if assuming an arbitrary pace (wherein we might do things like baby Sumia to Galeforce or train Donnel), we can get absurd conclusions like Sumia ~= Donnel, being "pretty even all things considered" in your words, which few people would agree with in general (I think).

Edited February 26, 2015 by XeKr

[Interceptor]

Sigh.

Those of you saying that Armsthrift will never proc consistently/100% in-game... sorry, but you're wrong. There are a bunch of ways to goose someone's LCK stat (tonics, icons, Pair-ups, etc), and anyone who is either 2nd gen or has Veteran (or both) has a decent shot of a good/maxed Armsthrift percentage. I mean, FFS, the proc chance is LCK*2, which gives you a serious activation rate rather quickly. And yes, even in no-grind: my L+ playthrough was no-grind, and I had two powerhouse Armsthrift units.

Getting a little tired of rolling out the pillory here, so if people could stop making silly claims, that'd be super cool.

[Vascela]

I'm sorry Interceptor. It's when you are at 16/1 (my preference being +Def/-Skl since 1, I don't like Luk flaw out of personal preference and 2, it would only be in my favor) is still a base 4 + 0.6x. So at 16 Tactician you get 13 Luk (26% isn't really that noticeable) before and after reclass. Transition to 16/10 with 18 Luk (36%, not the greatest, but now it's showing up). Luck doesn't have promo gains. 10/16/5 Hero gets you 21 Luk (42% is pretty noticeable). Zip ahead to promoted/15 with 27 Luk (54%).

Again, it's very, very nice to have. Having every other use saved is nice. Of course, if you add on the Tonic, 2 Icons, and +2 pair up (you have 27, let's not assume someone has 30 behind you) gives Avatar a total of 35 Luk per chapter (70%). This doesn't assume Luck pair up, which you could tack on top of the boosts).

Like I commented early, it isn't perfect, but it's very, very nice. Nothing I would bank on, but it's convenient.

edit out my skilled math

Edited February 26, 2015 by Vascela

[Knusperkeks]

Fine, fair, not really something I care to argue/discuss. However, the whole point of this tangent (of a tangent) was that, if assuming an arbitrary pace (wherein we might do things like baby Sumia to Galeforce or train Donnel), we can get absurd conclusions like Sumia ~= Donnel, being "pretty even all things considered" in your words, which few people would agree with in general (I think).

I know it's ridiculous, I'm probably still affected by a "discussion" from yesterday I had with a donnel fanboy over at gfaqs.

I agree with Armsthrift being a useful skill. Currently on chapter 16 in L+ and my Avatar has 46 base luck. She used a total of 3 Goddess Icons to get there.

All hail +5% luck growth from speed asset.

Edit: She went 20 Tactician -> 17 Mercenary -> 11 Bow Knight. I could have even higher luck by going 20 Mercenary, would have lost me at least one level in Bow Knight though, which I didn't want because Bow Breakers are coming in Valm, which I need to be prepared for.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Interceptor]

Christ on a cracker, did you read anything I wrote?

I see your bullshit made-up numbers, and raise you an actual no-grind playthrough that had four (FOUR!) units that were all in pissing distance of 100% AT activation. Go click on the link in my sig, grab some popcorn, and see for yourself. By the end of Ch21, all of Robin/Morgan/Lucina/LAURENT! had what amounts to infinite uses of whatever weapon they wanted.

It's not just "nice" to have an unbreakable forged Nosferatu and Brave weapons, it's how you snap lategame over your knee like a twig.

I'm sorry Interceptor.

Should have just stopped your post right there.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Interceptor

[Vascela]

I find it odd that you look down on Ownagepuff for calling something "fucking stupid" but then turn the corner and just call my numbers bullshit. (Although the Christ on the Cracker was close enough to a refreshment). And no, Nosferatu doesn't need any help snapping the game like a twig. It does just fine by itself.

The phrase personal experience means nothing is something everyone should be familiar with. It's not a matter of "bullshit" numbers. They're the numbers that are the same across all games in averages. It's nice to know that you've got some luck blessed units (and 60% is something that goes your way more than it doesn't). On top of that I stopped at 10/16/15. It's very likely that you will probably only be more than halfway through the game (~chapter 15/16 depending on how many units you use would be my estimate since 3 man run doesn't get anyone promoted 15 by chapter 13's end; closer to promoted 12). But for half of the game--even with tonics and stat boosters--is only about half the time. Assuming we go 10/16/16/X where X is Sorcerer constantly repeated using 4 +0.6x as the given stat expression for Luck we need to be 10/16/16/20/15 (so 2nd time through Sorc at 15) to reach Cap (47 Luck). Now if we want 50, and we are assuming tonic + 2 boosters + 3 pair up (since we're dealing in 40s for the lead, we can assume 30 in the back) we only need 41. That's still 10/16/16/20/4 (which is pretty far in the game and taking in +4 from stat boosters, if we take those away then we need 45 Luk after 6 more Level ups).

[Interceptor]

Should I start handing out shovels, here?

I find it odd that you look down on Ownagepuff for calling something "fucking stupid" but then turn the corner and just call my numbers bullshit. (Although the Christ on the Cracker was close enough to a refreshment).

I'd say I find it interesting that you find it odd, but I wasn't raised a liar. Ownage was both wrong and banal. Even if you don't particularly like my use of metaphor, I do have the advantage of being correct.

And no, Nosferatu doesn't need any help snapping the game like a twig. It does just fine by itself.

I invite you to step outside of whatever Carebear mode difficulty you are playing, and take a crack at Lunatic+ some time, where three out of every ten enemies comes with Counter. Give it a spin, see if you change your tune on the value of increasing the chances for one of your units to OHKO something. I'll wait; I've been here a while, won't hurt to hang out a little bit longer. Use my guide if you need a hand with it.

The phrase personal experience means nothing is something everyone should be familiar with.

PEMN only applies to the RNG. Personal experience means everything when it comes to, you know, actual experience in how the game flows. You didn't appear to actually look at my unit's stats -- to nobody's great surprise -- otherwise you would have noticed that my 20/20/10 Bow Knight Robin had 33 LCK at the end of Chapter 11, which is only a point above the expected average. Or 34 LCK at the end of Ch13, which at 20/20/15 is actually below average.

Why Ch13? Because that's when the 2nd gen children and Veteran-powered units show up (Lucina, Morgan, LAURENT!), and if anyone has been following along, those are exactly the units that I said have the chops for an AT strategy. They quickly get to the point where their weapons are invincible, and Robin is nearly there herself.

[...] pair up (since we're dealing in 40s for the lead, we can assume 30 in the back)

Random interjection: you DO know that there are classes that give legit +LCK Pair-ups, right? Lord is one of them, and the one in this game is some guy who's actually kind of a big deal. He can easily give +7-9 to his support partner, without batting so much as an eyelash. Just sayin'.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Interceptor

[Chiki]

How reliable are your playthroughs though? Most of yours appear to be quite unreliable, requiring a large amount of rigged stats or resetting for optimal outcomes, and I think that is a key factor for what is actually efficient.

Do you think I enjoy doing those resets? Lol. I wish I could do a reliable playthrough for once. That would be nice.

Interceptor just isn't capable of playing as fast as I can, so he doesn't agree with my arguments against Nowi being bad.

So efficiency really is an arbitrary thing and a matter of opinion in the end.

Also, you guys shouldn't have a debate with Interceptor. He never really makes any logical arguments. He's more of a funny troll than a debater.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Chiki

[dondon151]

actually, more people should argue with interceptor precisely because he's a funny troll. otherwise we wouldn't have such classics like neph getting 4HKO'd by houses.

[Interceptor]

Do you think I enjoy doing those resets? Lol. I wish I could do a reliable playthrough for once. That would be nice.

I think that you could do a reliable playthrough any time that you wanted. If you're not confident, just ask for advice. Lots of people here know how to minimize resets.

Interceptor just isn't capable of playing as fast as I can, so he doesn't agree with my arguments against Nowi being bad.

If I am following your logic correctly, I believe that this means that you think I'm an animated GIF of a dog that only communicates by text, because you've seen no evidence that I have hands or am able to speak.

Also, you guys shouldn't have a debate with Interceptor. He never really makes any logical arguments. He's more of a funny troll than a debater.

Well, on this point, I must defer to your expertise as an authority on trolling.

[Vascela]

1. I have completed L+/Classic many, many times. You are not the only one who has beaten it (nor are you the only one with a guide). In fact the first guide I followed was a long time ago by RenamonFOX which was made almost a year ago. But the funny thing is, L+ is actually pretty carebear mode once you unlock wireless for the Celica's Gale + Second Seal. It also gives you access spotpass Nos.

2. It's cute that you have your personal story there. I'm not against any fun whatsoever. You've played the game before. I get it. But when we are discussing a stat, that has an average stat, which has the same growth rate across all game modes-- it doesn't really matter what your luck stat has been in previous games. It will always follows 4 +0.6x (at least for +Def/-Skl). There is no RNG factor that I'm talking about. Take it for face value (I'm not attacking you or your credibility). Having ~50% AT halfway through the game is a respectable amount whether you like or dislike Armsthrift. Trust me when I say that I'm on your side saying Armsthrift is not bad.

3. That's exactly why I said assuming non Luck pair up. Chrom does give a nice Luck bonus, but look at other +Luck classes: Myrmidon/SM (pretty frowned upon), Griffon Rider (really frowned upon), Priest/Cleric/Promo (very much so frowned upon as they should just be on the map), Villager (not happening), Dancer (not happening), Lodestar (not happening), Bride (I don't have this DLC, so I'm not qualified to rate this, but I don't think this is a heavily requested class). It's also worth noting that Chrom might be in Great Lord. A certain someone who made a popular L+ guide once said that Depending on the strategy, bows are helpful, and Chrom might have reclassed archer and/or it's promotions which give no more than +3 Luck. You should be familiar with that person since you are the pretty popular with the bows.

The realistic answer is Chrom is giving his spouse ~+6 Early on while giving +9 Later (specifically as a Great Lord). The only spouse who has AT is the Avatar (which I did not instantly assume FeMU x Chrom). Unless you are telling me Chrom is no longer supporting his wife, he is actually participating as an A rank support with an Armsthrift user. Which I'm doubting. I'm simply saying that it does take time to develop AT. It's not online early on. It's coming online mid game. It's very likely to be online later in the game. That's all it is.

[Chiki]

Pairing Fred and Sumia is fucking stupid.

Ummm.. no it's not.

[Irysa]

Do you think I enjoy doing those resets? Lol. I wish I could do a reliable playthrough for once. That would be nice.

Whether you enjoy them or not is irrelevant, the fact that your LTC runs are highly unreliable compared to regular gameplay means that as evidence for efficiency they are lacking in an important feature, and thus can't be used as a benchmark for an "efficiency" tier list or something along those lines. They would however, be perfectly legitimate for an LTC tierlist which does not care about unreliable strategies.

Interceptor just isn't capable of playing as fast as I can, so he doesn't agree with my arguments against Nowi being bad.

So efficiency really is an arbitrary thing and a matter of opinion in the end.

Can't comment, haven't read them, don't really care to go read them since I highly doubt there's anything of substance in there judging by the level of discussion you're currently having.

Efficiency is arbitrary as everything is arbitrary, because we need to agree on definitions of anything (including all the words that we're using to communicate) in order to actually progress in a discussion. I think efficiency as outlined by XeKr and myself in this thread is well defined enough to allow it to be discussed within fairly conservative benchmarks.

[Chiki]

I think efficiency as outlined by XeKr and myself in this thread is well defined enough to allow it to be discussed within fairly conservative benchmarks.

Really? So you've come up with an efficiency ratio (a turns saved vs. reliability ratio) that everyone agrees with? I'd like to see that.

[Vascela]

There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and calling out their skill level.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Vascela

[Irysa]

Really? So you've come up with an efficiency ratio (a turns saved vs. reliability ratio) that everyone agrees with? I'd like to see that.

It's at least solid enough to simulteanously disregard extremely rig heavy unreliable strategies and extremely slow and reliable grinding. I don't think everyone neccessarily has to agree with something for it to not be categorised as arbitrary, otherwise ignorant dissenters would be able to claim any discussion was arbitary due to the nature of the conversation involving definitions they didn't agree to. In addition, most people in this topic (or on this forum even) are comfortable taking assumptions about how Donnel is bad due to the time and resources required to use him, which means by extension they're signing up to one of the basic principles of what we've outlined already. To add to that, most people in this thread also seem to be happy with disregarding the inherant low chance (unreliable) nature of dual guards as a defence against low durability, so they've also signed up to the second principle.

The main sticking point is whether or not people accept the utilisation of previous evidence as a way to gauge the whole ratio, but that hasn't really been contested here...yet. Maybe if XeKr makes a thread about it it can gather discussion until people are comfortable. If it's even of any interest to members present.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Irysa

[Chiki]

I don't think everyone neccessarily has to agree with something for it to not be categorised as arbitrary

Yes they do, otherwise people just talk past each other in debates, like me and Interceptor. This is a very basic part of any debate--before you can argue about something, you need to have the basics agreed on. Otherwise it's meaningless.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Chiki

[Irysa]

The key word is everyone. If enough people are willing to agree on it, then a few dissenters don't make the entire thing meaningless. Otherwise, like I repeatedly outlined, we'd have to admit that even our methods of communication are arbitrary because of the ability of someone else to insist on the definition of a word not being what it is widely agreed to be.

[Interceptor]

I have completed L+/Classic many, many times.

Oh, well then I apologize for assuming that your ignorance came from a lack of experience, although that does still leave open the question of where it DOES come from. Anyone who has been through the crucible of L+ -- especially no-grind L+ -- knows the value of the OHKO. Forged weapons are extraordinarily powerful in L+, and money is not so abundant that you can use them for everything... unless, of course, you have units that never actually break their weapons.

But when we are discussing a stat that has an average stat, which has the same growth rate across all game modes-- it doesn't really matter what your luck stat has been in previous games.

You appear to have forgotten what you said, but you say a lot of things (apparently at the expense of listening), so it's understandable. I will refresh your memory:

"It's nice to know that you've got some luck blessed units"

Generally when you sarcastically congratulate someone for having LCK-blessed units, it's a pretty good idea to verify whether or not said units were actually LCK-blessed first. Mine were not: anyone who can add and multiply can figure that out in less than a minute. If anything, they were slightly screwed. Fortunately for us, things like tonics/icons/Pair-up aren't subject to the RNG as such.

Summary, in case this one is slow to penetrate your Reality Distortion Field: if I offer up my LCK-screwed units as proof of concept of 100% AT viability, and your reply is "PEMN", this is an occasion for laughter at your expense.

That's exactly why I said assuming non Luck pair up. Chrom does give a nice Luck bonus, but [...]

No "buts" here. Chrom is forced in every map, and Lucina is an excellent LCK pair-up partner in her own right. The case doesn't even need to be made for other classes, because those two by themselves constitute overkill justification for the availability of strong LCK bonuses, even though they can both be reclassed.

The realistic answer is Chrom is giving his spouse ~+6 Early on while giving +9 Later (specifically as a Great Lord).

No, the realistic answer is that Chrom is giving +6-9 as a Great Lord to anyone with whom he can form an A-rank support with (which includes the entire Family of Destruction <tm> as well a few other handy targets), to say nothing of the fact that's he's still giving +4-7 to degenerates that he can't even build a support with in the first place. This is a substantial, RNG-agnostic boost to the AT activation rate, and you have access to it in every game.

I'm simply saying that it does take time to develop AT. It's not online early on. It's coming online mid game. It's very likely to be online later in the game. That's all it is.

Oh, is that all you're saying? Here I thought you said something like: "But for in the game world, you never have 100% proc". Was that someone else, perhaps?

Yes they do, otherwise people just talk past each other in debates, like me and Interceptor.

Oh come now; we've never debated anything.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Interceptor

[Vascela]

1. Nos eclipses all weapon types. I'm speaking for RTA on L+/Classic. No forges are necessary. Effective weapons are not as valuable, and not all recruitment is done. What you and I might define as "success" probably varies, RTA is something that you should at least understand my point of view (even if you disagree with it).

2. I pointed out that using tonics and boosters gives you a nice bonus to AT. I've already pointed out average stats to you around general chapters. Around midgame is approximately 50% +/- 10%.

3. I brought up Chrom's classes because Chrom is only providing +Luk in a specific class that even you recommend he seals out of (mainly into Bow Knight/Sniper). I think it's definitely worth bringing up simply because it's you and not someone else. You look one way and say be a bow user, then come into a topic and say he should be a great lord. He can't be both at the same time.

4. It's completely realistic of me to say that in the real game world, 100% AT isn't something to be attained. We're going into promoted classes for the 3rd time on average to reach these goals without a specific instance especially in said instance where you recommend not having Great Lord.

Being very likely online != 100%. It's just going to be more than relevant.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yes they do, otherwise people just talk past each other in debates, like me and Interceptor. This is a very basic part of any debate--before you can argue about something, you need to have the basics agreed on. Otherwise it's meaningless.

Specifically, it's meaningless to people who don't agree with your definition.

Which raises the question: who you do those LTC/challenge runs for? Are they for your own personal enjoyment? Then you shouldn't need to convince anyone of their legitimacy (or even have rules for them to be legitimate by sticking to). You could slow down for a run as much as is needed to make things reliable enough for your tastes, and if you're not playing as fast as possible, there's nobody to "disqualify" your run for not holding up to a standard of rules.

If they're a performance for an audience, then all you really need to do is make it be entertaining. Nobody cares about what specific rules you're following so long as it looks cool (which even a loosely defined efficiency run in the hands of a skilled player who doesn't make too many obvious mistakes can). In the case of you vs Int, you're both playing with personally defined rules and thus will have separate rankings for character usefulness, and nothing can be done to change that unless one of you plays by the other's rules.

If they're a competition against someone else to see who can do something better, though, then yeah, you both need to be playing by the same rules. And that's also a problem: if you want to say you're better than someone else and be able to prove it, you need to beat them on level ground. I've seen your stuff and don't doubt your ability, but since you don't have a common metric to compare performance by, you're going to get nowhere using personal skill as a factor in arguments. In Nowi's case, it's less of Int not being capable of playing as fast as you and more of Int just not playing as fast as you, regardless of talent. Nowi performs good in one setting and bad in another. It's that simple.

[eclipse]

The main sticking point is whether or not people accept the utilisation of previous evidence as a way to gauge the whole ratio, but that hasn't really been contested here...yet. Maybe if XeKr makes a thread about it it can gather discussion until people are comfortable. If it's even of any interest to members present.

. . .aaand scope. Is it about efficiency in general? Efficiency in Awakening? Efficiency in terms of how I should do my dishes? This will determine what subforum said thread goes into. Please do a quick search to make sure that there isn't an active thread that's about the same subject (if you can post in it without necroposting, it's active). No need to do a poll about it in this thread~!

Lastly, please keep your ill-cloaked affection for each other out of this thread!