Who is the worst unit in FE:A ?

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Those people might not care about efficiency or turn counts, but usually real time and effort are universal (consider that a lot of turns can be blitzed through in a very low amount of real time). Perhaps approaching from that angle would be more convincing?

[Eselred]

I can see three possibilities for this.

1. Your mind is made up, and you're literally not going to budge (that's closer to "preaching" than "discussing").

2. Your idea of discussion is hypotheticals (I was on someone else's cases for this in another thread).

3. You didn't read what I said carefully.

The entire point of this isn't to disprove that Donnel is terrible (like, reread my early stuff - now do it again) - it's to show why those who are in the lower difficulties will think that he's not terrible. If someone's on Normal/Hard, do you think they care about things like efficiency/turn counts?

I'm not the one discussing hypotheticals; in fact, I was kind of pointing out how silly all of these scenarios are when they require extreme circumstances to even start to show Donnel being useful.

I haven't seen many "lower difficulty players" in this thread, at least not lately, other than the one who was very adamant about Donnel being the best ever which set off this whole Donnel powder keg. They haven't posted in this thread for a while. So what is all the arguing about was kind of my point.

And for someone who just lectured another user on effective communication, you are coming across as quite rude. You are implying (or in some cases blatantly stating) that I'm not reading or understanding when all I'm trying to do is say that Donnel is bad because he requires a high degree of investment for a result that is worse than other units, only I'm attempting to do so without breaking out tons of math or writing a novel when it really isn't necessary in this case.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this thread now, because if someone really likes the bucket-head, it makes no difference to me. Play the game the way that's most fun to you. If you want to grind EXPGrowth for hours to make Donnel a solo machine, have at it.

It's just bothersome when things like "Donnel is better than X!" or " Donnel isn't the worst unit in the game!" are being seriously argued. That's like saying "Nino is better than Marcus!" or "Marcus is the worst unit in the game!". It's just wrong, and all it requires is paying attention while playing the game to see how wrong it is. It doesn't even require all this intense math and wordy posts; for example, if someone thinks Nino is great and Marcus is terrible, simply ask them to play HHM. Their mind will be changed quickly. Practical experience and all that.

[eclipse]

I'm not the one discussing hypotheticals; in fact, I was kind of pointing out how silly all of these scenarios are when they require extreme circumstances to even start to show Donnel being useful.

Why did you feel the need to do that?

I haven't seen many "lower difficulty players" in this thread, at least not lately, other than the one who was very adamant about Donnel being the best ever which set off this whole Donnel powder keg. They haven't posted in this thread for a while. So what is all the arguing about was kind of my point.

Two things:

1. Less than 48 hours ago.

2. You honestly think someone's going to post that in this thread, given both your stance and the way you defend it?

And for someone who just lectured another user on effective communication, you are coming across as quite rude. You are implying (or in some cases blatantly stating) that I'm not reading or understanding when all I'm trying to do is say that Donnel is bad because he requires a high degree of investment for a result that is worse than other units, only I'm attempting to do so without breaking out tons of math or writing a novel when it really isn't necessary in this case.

You're fairly easily offended, given that you come across a lot worse (no I don't try to break down people's motives for them unless I have a good reason to). See that bolded sentence? Nice and neutral, and may need a bit of proof, but I'd let that fly.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this thread now, because if someone really likes the bucket-head, it makes no difference to me. Play the game the way that's most fun to you. If you want to grind EXPGrowth for hours to make Donnel a solo machine, have at it.

. . .and this is where your claim of reading the entire thread falls flat on its face.

It's just bothersome when things like "Donnel is better than X!" or " Donnel isn't the worst unit in the game!" are being seriously argued. That's like saying "Nino is better than Marcus!" or "Marcus is the worst unit in the game!". It's just wrong, and all it requires is paying attention while playing the game to see how wrong it is. It doesn't even require all this intense math and wordy posts; for example, if someone thinks Nino is great and Marcus is terrible, simply ask them to play HHM. Their mind will be changed quickly. Practical experience and all that.

Oddly enough, Nino is used in ranked HHM runs - goes to show that she's got a use. Also ties into my previous sentiment that you didn't read the entire thread.

[Knusperkeks]

That feeling when somebody ignores your post but answers to others. :(

[eclipse]

Gimme a break, Yours Truly isn't being paid for this!

And since I'm a lazy git, I'm gonna link it instead!

WRT chipping - Chrom does not chip. He MURDERS things (especially wyverns, unless you went and bought him an Iron Sword). . .well, he can "chip" archers, in a sense that they'll be on their last legs, begging for a swift, merciful death. Hand Axes/Javelins provide 2-range chip against melee units, which are far more common.

WRT statistical deviation - It's an actual part of statistics, not something that's unique to Fire Emblem. It can be tested by flipping a coin, rolling a dice, utilizing one of the other RNG generators out there to spit out numbers, etc. It's also why personal experience is usually not factored into a unit's worth, BUT it should be considered if you want to understand why the other person may be defending a character (especially a growth one).

WRT shafting other units - I'd need to study statistics to fully explain this - what little I remember isn't a sufficient explanation IMO.

I. . .think that should be the important stuff. Now I need to get back to real life. My dinner won't cook itself.

[Knusperkeks]

I've got nothing to add.

I knew you might be busy, so I waited 24 hours, at which point I assumed the post was missed because it was burried.

Thanks for the response! o/

[The Fir Coat]

*Is The Fir Coat*

I was summoned to this topic by Colin Kaepernick.

Donnel is a much better unit on L+ than most of the cast.

1. He is the best unit in the game for Leif's Blade, which allows you to pimp out everyone else with Brave, Rescue/Physic/Fortify spam to level up Lissa and Anna, Forge weapons when you need them, etc. He has 100% Luck growth so it isn't possible to be Luck screwed. Using Donnel makes everyone else stronger. It also allows you to not waste time dragging the Avatar and Lucina through Mercenary and can start on their bow rank asap.

2. He has the second best class in the game in Mercenary. Armsthrift + his ridonk luck means he can forge a Brave Bow early and use it for the entire game. This makes up for his lack of Bowfaire. Bow Knight is the second strongest promoted class, only losing to Sorcerer.

3. Leveling him up is simple if you drain the enemy weapons and surround the archers. Sure it takes 200-400 turns, but 80%+ of those are just spent ending turn or having Lissa heal MU and then ending turn. MU needs 17 Defense by Paralogue 1 to take no damage from the Archers and Short Axe dudes and 4 from the Steel Axe guys. Considering you've been resetting and taking forever doing the water trick in the prologue just to get through Chapter 2 taking extra turns isn't a big deal. It is possible to get him to 10 by the end of Chapter 4, and potentially it can happen in Paralogue 1 if you get lucky with the skill distribution.

4. He's the best father for anyone you might want to use. Aptitude is just that strong. It is especially helpful for the boost it gives to the defenses. Donnel!Laurent (What I used) has 70%+ in the offenses and 56% in the defenses.

5. His "low caps" don't even matter. He's doing fine in combat with the Chapter 24 dudes assuming you don't just Nosferaskip that Chapter. He can't really solo the dreadlords but he can still fight many of them. There are some enemies that 40 Speed won't double, but that's why god gave you Tonics, Pair Up, Rally Speed and Rally Spectrum, and most of the cast isn't doubling the Balmunk guy.

6. He will max his avoid fairly early in the game, and he gets Patience to boost this further. It won't help vs. Hawkeye but otherwise it is still very useful.

There are some characters that are really bad in this game, but Donnel is not one of them. He has all of the tools he needs to succeed on the highest difficulty. Personally I think the worst Character in the game is Gaius.

[Glitchy]

I would say Donnel if he didn't get so overpowered once he hits Hero. As much as I like Virion, he isn't too great of a unit, however. But most if not every unit has utility.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I was summoned to this topic by Colin Kaepernick.

Then it's his fault this topic got bumped.

Donnel does generate loads of money but the game already gives you so much later on that it barely even matters (and he won't be giving as much at the very start due to needing to get his Swd rank and Lck going), and I'd still be going through Merc anyway on Robin (strong promotion options and gives good pairup boosts to get other units going). Having forges is nice but KOing power generally isn't a problem either way once units can use Braves, and Donnel doesn't really have any way to help with weapon rank gain on other units which is what's really lacking.

Money for expensive Staves to train healers? If you're going to spend 200+ turns breaking weapons (a strategy I've used that definitely has its uses), you should be getting plenty of damage from the Luna+ enemies anyway for the staffers to heal off, giving boatloads of exp anyway with much cheaper and higher useage staves.

Even without Aptitude the children grow insanely fast due to their low ILs. It might make them become invincible a few levels earlier, but they'll become invincible and get those levels with relatively similar amounts of effort whether they have it or not. I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as, say, giving Cordelia the ability to pass GF to two children at once, or starting Laurent with Vantage.

[The Fir Coat]

Then it's his fault this topic got bumped.

Donnel does generate loads of money but the game already gives you so much later on that it barely even matters (and he won't be giving as much at the very start due to needing to get his Swd rank and Lck going), and I'd still be going through Merc anyway on Robin (strong promotion options and gives good pairup boosts to get other units going). Having forges is nice but KOing power generally isn't a problem either way once units can use Braves, and Donnel doesn't really have any way to help with weapon rank gain on other units which is what's really lacking.

Money for expensive Staves to train healers? If you're going to spend 200+ turns breaking weapons (a strategy I've used that definitely has its uses), you should be getting plenty of damage from the Luna+ enemies anyway for the staffers to heal off, giving boatloads of exp anyway with much cheaper and higher useage staves.

Even without Aptitude the children grow insanely fast due to their low ILs. It might make them become invincible a few levels earlier, but they'll become invincible and get those levels with relatively similar amounts of effort whether they have it or not. I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as, say, giving Cordelia the ability to pass GF to two children at once, or starting Laurent with Vantage.

But you can go through Archer instead on Robin's way to Sniper which allows Longbow use in Valm and lets you start Bow Emblem as soon as Chapter 9/Paralogue 3, with two participants rather than relying on the enemies to obligingly not have counter. Allowing MU, Lucina and (potentially) Morgan to skip Mercenary entirely DOES help their weapon rank problem, as you can start giving them bow EXP as soon as Paralogue 12 by starting them in Archer. Having a forge that allows Donnel to KO Aegis+ Generals fairly reliably with a Hammer instapromoted Cherche pair up does help his case.

The expensive staves aren't just for EXP farming, having infinite Rescue and Physic at your disposal allows your healers to have uses in Chapters where you don't have the ability to put them on the front lines, which is a lot of them in this game considering Pass is a Lunatic+ Skill. You can be spamming Physic every turn instead of bringing your healers into the fray.

If you're going to not use Chrom as MU's Waifu then I guess MU is the best man material, I'll give you that.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Avatar's family tend not to be the ones with weapon rank issues, it's all the peripheral supporting units that could take occasional kills to help out that have trouble (stuff like Lissa's Tomes).

Avatar also shouldn't need to wait for Cht.9 to promote when there's a perfectly good MS in Cht.8 and a SS in the Renown. Before Cht.8 is usually the standard promotion time after one base reclass.

For what it's worth, I've never had issues with running out of Rescue on GF-heavy playthroughs unless I just forget to buy them or something.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Knusperkeks]

Hello, my name is Knusperkeks. Don't give me a nickname without my permission, it's rude.

[spoiler=Oh my god that's a lot to read!]

You are ignoring many, many valid points of criticism which have been made in this thread in the past, therefore, you are no true scotsman. This means I already won this debate the moment you committed this logical fallacy.

This one time I will make an exception to point out exactly how much nonsense you talk, by showing you undeniable numbers which leave no room to argue, firsthand.

Using Donnel makes everyone else stronger...

By definition, using Donnel makes everyone else weaker on behalf of reduced experience gains, but please, do continue with your "analysis"...

Donnel is a much better unit on L+ than most of the cast.

1. He is the best unit in the game for Leif's Blade, which allows you to pimp out everyone else...

Leif's Blade is a C ranked sword. Donnel can't use it in earlygame at all. Robin can use it before Donnel is even recruitable. Your argument is invalid. By extension, this statement, too, is invalid:

...which allows you to pimp out everyone else with Brave, Rescue/Physic/Fortify spam to level up Lissa and Anna, Forge weapons when you need them, etc. He has 100% Luck growth so it isn't possible to be Luck screwed. Using Donnel makes everyone else stronger.

So Donnel not using the Leif's Blade to not create money because he can't hit with it will not make everyone uncertainly stronger!

*sigh* this is so complicated man... oh wait.

That means that whether Donnel doesn't use the Leif's Blade to not create money or not has no impact on the game whatsoever. Hmm...

DONNEL CAN'T USE THE WEAPON, ROBIN CAN! THIS MEANS DONNEL IS - IN FACT - NOT THE BEST USER OF LEIF'S BLADE!

I'm glad we got that out of the way.

It also allows you to not waste time dragging the Avatar and Lucina through Mercenary and can start on their bow rank asap.

2. He has the second best class in the game in Mercenary. Armsthrift + his ridonk luck means he can forge a Brave Bow early and use it for the entire game. This makes up for his lack of Bowfaire. Bow Knight is the second strongest promoted class, only losing to Sorcerer.

First you tell people to not waste Avatar's/Lucina's time in Mercenary (which is - according to you - the second best class in the game(AFTER BOW KNIGHT AND SOCERER)(wait what?) to get bow rank exp.(which they do not need in the slightest, but that's beside the point right now)

The same guy who is serious in telling others to waste FOUR HUNDRED turns in paralogue 1 suddenly starts to argue about time efficiency.

You argue most of these turns last no more than a couple of seconds? Let me tell you a thing about time efficiency.

Part of the reason why Robin goes through Mercenary is to get Armsthrift en passant to Bow Knight to let Morgan inherit said Armsthrift.

Just to remind you, that's the same Chrom!Morgan you want to make a rally bot.

The same Chrom!Morgan who had 84% Armsthrift after his recruitment chapter. At this point, your Donnel has 90% Armsthrift.

It took me one chapter accomplish what you wasted your whole early game - every move in up to including chapter 13 - on.

The audacity it takes to deny other's the "second best class in the game" just to create a pseudo Bowfaire for your Donnel.

What a pathetic excuse for reasoning.

Rally bot Morgan is where it's at, boys!

3. Leveling him up is simple if you drain the enemy weapons and surround the archers. Sure it takes 200-400 turns, but 80%+ of those are just spent ending turn or having Lissa heal MU and then ending turn. MU needs 17 Defense by Paralogue 1 to take no damage from the Archers and Short Axe dudes and 4 from the Steel Axe guys. Considering you've been resetting and taking forever doing the water trick in the prologue just to get through Chapter 2 taking extra turns isn't a big deal. It is possible to get him to 10 by the end of Chapter 4, and potentially it can happen in Paralogue 1 if you get lucky with the skill distribution.

I didn't reset and take forever on prologue. (That's just the way you do things, high grade personal inrcredulity right here.)

I didn't need 200-400 turns on paralogue 1.

I didn't need 17 defense Avatar to my my strategy work.

All I needed was two dozen turns on paralogue 12 and I created my Morgan. Below is the Donnel you had after paralogue 12. [spoiler=Let's compare]

         HP ST MG SK SP LK DF RS
Donnel   61 34 15 35 40 45 29 10
Morgan   64 32 17 38 39 37 32 18

The best idea I can come up with is to make Morgan a rally bot!

Rightful King gives Morgan +10% Armsthrift, which is worth +5 Luck. Let's ignore the fact that your Donnel got screwed in res, it happens. They're basically identical.

After paralogue 12: Your Donnel has an internal level of 4+20+16=40, my Morgan has 4+20+7=31.

Donnel has +20% to all growths, Morgan has +50% EXP. Who do you think will grow faster? If Mercenary truly was a waste of time, you wouldn't go for it on your Donnel.

4. He's the best father for anyone you might want to use. Aptitude is just that strong. It is especially helpful for the boost it gives to the defenses. Donnel!Laurent (What I used) has 70%+ in the offenses and 56% in the defenses.

He gives those growths at the cost of a different skill.

Your Laurent didn't come with Sol. You had to go through Mercenary10 -> Hero 10 -> Sorceror.

I went through Mercenary10 and immediately reclassed to Dark Mage. Last time I checked, Dark Mage had more suitable growths in magic offensive stats than Hero. Your Aptitude is negated already.

It took you until the start of chapter 18 to make Laurent a Sorceror.

I had him in Sorceror one chapter earlier.

[spoiler=Let's compare stats]

                                             HP ST  MG  SK SP LK DF RS
 *post ch.18 Donnel!Laurent    10/10/11/3.60 71 27 32+2 35 35 44 32 29
**post ch.16 Gregor!Laurent 10/10/20.00/3.68 67 19 33+7 31 33 34 28 25  A Tme
  post ch.18 Gregor!Laurent 10/10/20.00/9.24 73 19 37+7 35 36 37 32 29

*Internal levels: Donnel!Laurent: 4+5+20+3=33
**internal levels: Gregor!Laurent: 4+4+20+3=31

As you can see, the boost aptitude gives you is negated by the time wasted leveling up in a class with unneeded growths.

Yours has Aptitude and 7 luck, mine has Anathema (and hex).

Mine has 2 more hp, 10 more magic.

You mentioned something about glorious growths? Does 7 luck and 8 strength weight more than 10 magic?

5. His "low caps" don't even matter. He's doing fine in combat with the Chapter 24 dudes assuming you don't just Nosferaskip that Chapter. He can't really solo the dreadlords but he can still fight many of them. There are some enemies that 40 Speed won't double, but that's why god gave you Tonics, Pair Up, Rally Speed and Rally Spectrum, and most of the cast isn't doubling the Balmunk guy.

Of course, you decide to ditch Donnel just before he falls behind. That way it "doesn't matter". Let Laurent and Lucina pick up the slack. Donnel is still the best unit in the game, even though we can't use him effectively anymore! Pure genius.

6. He will max his avoid fairly early in the game, and he gets Patience to boost this further. It won't help vs. Hawkeye but otherwise it is still very useful.

What is this "max avoid" you're talking about? Nobody can reach 100% listed avoidance ever. Who needs hit from patience when you have hit+20, or if the hit is not needed: Bowfaire? Huh? on top of +5 Mt forge AND 100% ARMSTHRIFT?

Who cares about 100% armsthrift morgan with bowfaire? Let's make Morgan a rally bot!

But you can go through Archer instead on Robin's way to Sniper which allows Longbow use in Valm and lets you start Bow Emblem as soon as Chapter 9/Paralogue 3, with two participants rather than relying on the enemies to obligingly not have counter.

If you didn't waste your experience on the scrub that is Donnel, you would have had a Chrom which is a very reliable unit, who happens to have the Archer tree available to him, which enables Bow Emblem as soon as Chapter 6/Paralogue2. Good riddance.

You wouldn't believe how amazing Chrom is even with only a base Frederick as support.

Fact of the matter is, Avatar will gain access to bows before Valm happens, even if one decides to go through Mercenary. Your complaints about enemies "obligingly not having counter" is void.

Allowing MU, Lucina and (potentially) Morgan to skip Mercenary entirely DOES help their weapon rank problem, as you can start giving them bow EXP as soon as Paralogue 12 by starting them in Archer.

Yoshi already mentioned it: Avatar, Lucina and Morgan do not need help with their non-existent weapon rank problem.

Having a forge that allows Donnel to KO Aegis+ Generals fairly reliably with a Hammer instapromoted Cherche pair up does help his case.

Nobody cares about Aegis+ Generals because they are not a threat, therefore the ability to KO them with a single unit is inconsequential. Why do you bring them up now?

The expensive staves aren't just for EXP farming, having infinite Rescue and Physic at your disposal allows your healers to have uses in Chapters where you don't have the ability to put them on the front lines, which is a lot of them in this game considering Pass is a Lunatic+ Skill. You can be spamming Physic every turn instead of bringing your healers into the fray.

I did not use Leif's Blade on Donnel, I used it on Avatar, it didn't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things, comparing the Luck stat of your Donnel and my Avatar.

I absolutely did not need Donnel's luck to make money through Leif's blade.

All it takes is to make every single unit besides Donnel or his son a pile of sh*t to demonstrate how great Donnel is.

Rally Bot Morgan, for Christ's sake.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[eclipse]

First, let's start with this:

There are some characters that are really bad in this game, but Donnel is not one of them. He has all of the tools he needs to succeed on the highest difficulty. Personally I think the worst Character in the game is Gaius.

Gaius is actually useful in back, and his bonuses are nothing to sneeze about. Unless you hate extra movement and speed or something.

Donnel is a much better unit on L+ than most of the cast.

While I strongly disagree with your stance, you took the time to attempt to justify it using stuff like stats and strategy, so thanks (not being sarcastic).

1. He is the best unit in the game for Leif's Blade, which allows you to pimp out everyone else with Brave, Rescue/Physic/Fortify spam to level up Lissa and Anna, Forge weapons when you need them, etc. He has 100% Luck growth so it isn't possible to be Luck screwed. Using Donnel makes everyone else stronger. It also allows you to not waste time dragging the Avatar and Lucina through Mercenary and can start on their bow rank asap.

That's ten levels of villager, plus fifteen whacks with a sword and an Arms Scroll before he can even think about doing that. Y'know who can do that without wasting a Second Seal and Arms Scroll? Gregor. Granted, Gregor's Luck will forever be overshadowed by Donnel's, but I doubt you'll need that much gold, unless you're a compulsive Anna shopper like me.

And why in the world would Lucina need Armsthrift, given that she has an unbreakable sword to her name? She can stay in back and smack people with it.

2. He has the second best class in the game in Mercenary. Armsthrift + his ridonk luck means he can forge a Brave Bow early and use it for the entire game. This makes up for his lack of Bowfaire. Bow Knight is the second strongest promoted class, only losing to Sorcerer.

. . .Brave. . .Bow? So he needs ten levels of villager, ten of mercenary, either lose out on Sol or take an additional ten levels of Hero, and a LOT of whacks with a bow before he can get there. Have fun?

3. Leveling him up is simple if you drain the enemy weapons and surround the archers. Sure it takes 200-400 turns, but 80%+ of those are just spent ending turn or having Lissa heal MU and then ending turn. MU needs 17 Defense by Paralogue 1 to take no damage from the Archers and Short Axe dudes and 4 from the Steel Axe guys. Considering you've been resetting and taking forever doing the water trick in the prologue just to get through Chapter 2 taking extra turns isn't a big deal. It is possible to get him to 10 by the end of Chapter 4, and potentially it can happen in Paralogue 1 if you get lucky with the skill distribution.

Breaking all enemy weapons is a viable training strategy for everyone, so I don't see why this is unique to Donnel.

4. He's the best father for anyone you might want to use. Aptitude is just that strong. It is especially helpful for the boost it gives to the defenses. Donnel!Laurent (What I used) has 70%+ in the offenses and 56% in the defenses.

I'm not a fan of Aptitude, because it'll eventually wear out its welcome. On average, you're looking at an extra stat point every five levels. I'd rather have Underdog (as his kids can reclass to his not-terrible classes on their own time), but that's because I abuse Second Seals.

5. His "low caps" don't even matter. He's doing fine in combat with the Chapter 24 dudes assuming you don't just Nosferaskip that Chapter. He can't really solo the dreadlords but he can still fight many of them. There are some enemies that 40 Speed won't double, but that's why god gave you Tonics, Pair Up, Rally Speed and Rally Spectrum, and most of the cast isn't doubling the Balmunk guy.

. . .why Chapter 24, of all things? And if you're arguing Tonics and the like for Donnel, then I think that it should apply to everyone else ('cept the ralliers, but who's counting?). The Tonics are cheap, to the point where my perpetually broke army could make use of them.

6. He will max his avoid fairly early in the game, and he gets Patience to boost this further. It won't help vs. Hawkeye but otherwise it is still very useful.

Tell me how that fares against the breakers - even though I've stuck to vanilla Lunatic, they've still given me hell.

This helped me to understand Knusperkeks's initial reaction to what I said earlier in the thread, so thanks. I'll have to echo him in the fact that if you're going to allocate all of the time/resources into Donnel, you might as well consider what would happen if you gave the rest of your army the same treatment. Unless you get screwed in everything, you'll probably have a decent unit on your hands.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Oh wow, I must not have been paying attention when I responded to those posts because that's a lot of stuff that I missed. Yeah if you want to use weapon breaking strats that's cool but please never mention doing so in any kind of efficiency context.

Quick thing about those scary Generals (assuming talking about Cht.23, because nobody cares about Cht.25 so they're the strongest in the game): base Lunatic Basilio with a Flavia pairup and his Hammer kinda has 51 Atk (71 against Generals), which against their 34 Def and 80 HP is a clean 74 damage. Flavia is packing a 61.56% chance of getting at least one DS, KOing them. Even if that should fail, Basilio's 27 Def and 72 HP is beefy enough to take two Silver Axe++ hits (no Luna+/Counter) and survive, so you're not even risking anything on failure. And if you know you won't be able to take the extra hit for whatever reason, engage with the Hammer on EP, then kill with the Short Axe or Silver Bow next PP. Luna+ won't be enough to OHKO him in that case.

Basilio and Flavia are recruited that chapter with all that stuff. Your Donnel has had 200+ turns of weapon break KOes, a forge and a pairup that needed a MS, and still only has "a chance" to KO the same enemy- so they're on just equal footing after that massive investment. That's really wimpy.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Ownagepuffs]

I want you to be honest with me. Did you really expect anyone here to take you seriously after the 200-400 turns remark?

[The Fir Coat]

I want you to be honest with me. Did you really expect anyone here to take you seriously after the 200-400 turns remark?

No, I know that SF is full of turncount tryhards. I posted my playthrough to gamefaqs instead of this place because at least when people are hostile on gamefaqs I can properly troll them back.

[omega zero]

I think it was more so in reference to ease of use and opportunity cost. Aside from those two, turn count only matters in Awakening if you place that restriction/challenge on yourself.

[Knusperkeks]

No, I know that SF is full of turncount tryhards. I posted my playthrough to gamefaqs instead of this place because at least when people are hostile on gamefaqs I can properly troll them back.

Why don't you just stop wasting time by trolling people on gfaqs and use the time you have gained to answer my post #512?

There are literally dozens of arguments in that post, turncounts is only one of them, and I only brought that one up because you started talking about time efficiency, not out of spite or anything thelike.

edit: typo

Edited March 11, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[omega zero]

Well, by 'wasting time to go through merc,' I took the statement to mean 'you can spend those turns on a different class instead of merc.'

[The Fir Coat]

You can switch to archer instead and spend that time levelling Bows and not taking Counter damage.

[Czar_Yoshi]

No, I know that SF is full of turncount tryhards.

Oh, most of us are fine with huge turncounts when there's no pretense of efficiency. The problem is that you've both got huge turn counts (and not just not small, really really huge) and are trying to justify using Donnel in terms of saving time elsewhere- either you care about time or you don't, make up your mind.

Want to spend 200-400 turns breaking weapons for him? That's fine. But it also means you should have no problem spending more time training up other units, and claiming to have a problem with doing that (or even that not needing to is a good thing) just reeks of Donnel bias.

[The Fir Coat]

"Time" in this case doesn't refer to turns, it refers to Chapters.

[Gradivus.]

that doesn't counter his claim that other units can be trained in the same way.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Czar_Yoshi]

"Time" in this case doesn't refer to turns, it refers to Chapters.

Says who?

[Interceptor]

No, I know that SF is full of turncount tryhards. I posted my playthrough to gamefaqs instead of this place because at least when people are hostile on gamefaqs I can properly troll them back.

LTC players are a minority here; a vocal one, for sure, but a minority still. There are plenty of expert players that don't worship the altar of the Turncount. Sorry not sorry if that takes away an excuse for you to be shitty to people.

The thing with Donnel is interesting as a sort of proof of concept of his viability in L+. As an argument, it's pretty poor: sunk by contradictions and hyperbole. As you noted, this isn't GameFAQs.