Weaponry

[NinjaMonkey]

I'm fine with the stuff that they had in Awakening.

I wouldn't mind bronze weapons if they didn't have piss might.

Awakening had this feature known as "weapon forging". You could use this mechanic to increase the might of a weapon, even Bronze Weapons...

Edited January 17, 2015 by NinjaMonkey

[Aiddon]

Ew, no thank you. I'd much rather FE stay medieval.

Uh, firearms have been around for nearly seven-hundred years in Europe i.e. during the Late Middle Ages. Cannons were in use by the 13th century in Europe. Heck, the earliest known gun is a Chinese one dated to the 13th century and the earliest cannon is also Chinese, dated in the 12th century. Plus, interesting thing about the trailer is that soldiers at one point there are soldiers wearing Morion helmets, a type of armor best associated with Conquistadors and Portuguese pikemen. Those weren't in use until the 1500s....which is right around the time Japan and Portugal made contact. That was actually when firearms were introduced. They were inaccurate, but they could bust through platemail like nobody's business. You could arguably make guns the archer equivalent of the Armourslayer or Hammer

@ That One Person

Holy crap, that happened? Need to brush up on my Tearring Saga info. I would say I'd like to see steampunk elements brought into the series due to hints that they're moving past just being in the Early Middle Ages...but Code Name S.T.E.A.M. is already scratching that itch. Speaking of which, someone needs to unlock the thread for that considering we got new info for the game and it's out in less than two months.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Aiddon

[Hong]

It also inflated the worth of certain weapons (case in point, why would I use a steel weapon when a killer weapon was better in just about every way?). Plus, this could apply to most units. And Durandal was just an example. What about all the higher ranked tomes in FE7 and FE8??

You are leaving value out of the equation. Weapon rarity or cost can be a measure in which a weapon is designed. For instance, steel weapons are roughly 60% more expensive than iron, while silver is double the price of steel (a hundred gold give or take based on entry). Generally in terms of performance, silver is superior to steel in both damage and accuracy with some wiggle room with each entry, but cost significantly more than steel. This is not the case with iron versus steel, or a heavy weapon versus a light weapon, where hit and, in some games, weight might give incentive to use a lower tier of weapon even if it has less mt. Killer weapons are not meant to be compared to steel because they either cost way more and/or the game offer scarce supply.

And again, if multiple statistical elements are unfavourable in the late game, it can just reflect the state of game development or the distribution of testing versus a flaw with the mechanic. The weight/con system holds up just fine prior for the most of the game, meaning it can work.

Bold: I'm not sure what you mean by this example, given that in general, the most accurate weapon type is iron, and fighters generally have enough strength to make even those sting.

That's not a fair comparison because an iron axe, in damage and accuracy, is meant to be compared to other weapons within its tier, and axe-wielders are statistically tailored to be facing mostly weapons of an iron make early on in the game. The iron weapon has a higher hit value as a way to provide leverage to keep it valuable in the late game (like the weight system), but to have the greater mt of the steel axe at a later part of the game while still having the accuracy of that iron axe, you would come at the cost of a forging.

[ClassyWolf]

I'll post this here too quoting myself from the trailer analysis thread because I noticed something that might belong here:

Just a random thing a noticed, is the magic fan thignie maybe supposed to be some ofuda (don't know how to put that in plural in English), or whatever they are called?, The paper charm... cards?, I don't really know hoe to explain them, but it seems like it, just noticed it cause of how many times you replayed and paused that part.

And the staff, mace, thing, that is used by the partner dual attacking in the same shot, could maybe be a khakkhara, or sounding staff in English, so maybe a monk class?

[Shadow Mir]

You are leaving value out of the equation. Weapon rarity or cost can be a measure in which a weapon is designed. For instance, steel weapons are roughly 60% more expensive than iron, while silver is double the price of steel (a hundred gold give or take based on entry). Generally in terms of performance, silver is superior to steel in both damage and accuracy with some wiggle room with each entry, but cost significantly more than steel. This is not the case with iron versus steel, or a heavy weapon versus a light weapon, where hit and, in some games, weight might give incentive to use a lower tier of weapon even if it has less mt. Killer weapons are not meant to be compared to steel because they either cost way more and/or the game offer scarce supply.

And again, if multiple statistical elements are unfavourable in the late game, it can just reflect the state of game development or the distribution of testing versus a flaw with the mechanic. The weight/con system holds up just fine prior for the most of the game, meaning it can work.

That's not a fair comparison because an iron axe, in damage and accuracy, is meant to be compared to other weapons within its tier, and axe-wielders are statistically tailored to be facing mostly weapons of an iron make early on in the game. The iron weapon has a higher hit value as a way to provide leverage to keep it valuable in the late game (like the weight system), but to have the greater mt of the steel axe at a later part of the game while still having the accuracy of that iron axe, you would come at the cost of a forging.

Also, I didn't mention this earlier, but I thought another good example would be FE3's Bolganone - the strongest tome in the game, excepting Aura, which was only usable by Linde, but it's so heavy that it destroys your AS, making it impractical (and note that unlike the other examples, FE3 has no buffer [by which I mean a stat that mitigated the AS loss from weapon weight], and thus a weapon's weight is directly subtracted from your speed to come up with your AS). That being said, in general, heavier weapons wound up impractical because the tradeoff wasn't worth it for most characters, and those who COULD use such weapons without suffering much, if any penalties were the ones that DIDN'T need them. What's fair about that?

Okay. Not all games had forging, though.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[CazTGG]

2. The reaver weapons from the GBA games. Wow, I'm saying I want something from the GBA era back? Yes, yes I am. I thought that these were just genius. The Swordreaver, Axereaver, and Lancereaver actually reversed the weapon triangle, therefore making you think harder and adding challenge to the game.

Perhaps it's just me, but I noticed the myrmidon in the trailer was using a new sword and said sword was given a boost while attacking a bow unit. Perhaps this new sword specializes in taking out bow units?

[Shadow Mir]

Perhaps it's just me, but I noticed the myrmidon in the trailer was using a new sword and said sword was given a boost while attacking a bow unit. Perhaps this new sword specializes in taking out bow units?

I doubt it, given the damage - I'd expect a weapon specialized for taking out a certain unit type to deal more damage than that if that were the case.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[hammerene]

Perhaps it's just me, but I noticed the myrmidon in the trailer was using a new sword and said sword was given a boost while attacking a bow unit. Perhaps this new sword specializes in taking out bow units?

Also, the sword she's using is just an Iron Sword. (Unless I translated it wrong...)

Edited January 17, 2015 by ???

[Neoleo21]

Perhaps it's just me, but I noticed the myrmidon in the trailer was using a new sword and said sword was given a boost while attacking a bow unit. Perhaps this new sword specializes in taking out bow units?

That's an iron katana, I think its just the weapons triangle being tweaked

[Hong]

Also, I didn't mention this earlier, but I thought another good example would be FE3's Bolganone - the strongest tome in the game, excepting Aura, which was only usable by Linde, but it's so heavy that it destroys your AS, making it impractical (and note that unlike the other examples, FE3 has no buffer [by which I mean a stat that mitigated the AS loss from weapon weight], and thus a weapon's weight is directly subtracted from your speed to come up with your AS). That being said, in general, heavier weapons wound up impractical because the tradeoff wasn't worth it for most characters, and those who COULD use such weapons without suffering much, if any penalties were the ones that DIDN'T need them. What's fair about that?

Fire Emblem has imbalances or mistakes in item statistics... Much like it has imbalances in character effectiveness, class worth, chapter design. That is not a problem with the weight system.

Okay. Not all games had forging, though.

I was not making the example of the forged iron axe to say forging exists to offset the weaknesses of a particular weapon or class. I was making the example of the forged iron axe to illustrate cost being among the various factors that balance a weapon or allow a character to operate out of their typical bounds.

[Shadow Mir]

Fire Emblem has imbalances or mistakes in item statistics... Much like it has imbalances in character effectiveness, class worth, chapter design. That is not a problem with the weight system.

Whether it's a problem with the weight system or not, I still think it's an example of weight taking away tactical options.

[Hong]

Whether it's a problem with the weight system or not, I still think it's an example of weight taking away tactical options.

No. It's an example of poor balance taking away tactical options. A character can have all the Con in the world but if the rest of the package doesn't hold up, they're garbage.

[Sentacotus]

So, the weapons we can have our units use in this game! What do you want to see return and/or go away?

I'm sure many of us want to see Light magic back, and I agree there. Light magic is so pretty and it made me appreciate Rhys more in the Tellius games. He's frail and sickly, yet still goes out there in the battle and starts kicking tail! He might not ever be the best magic user, but still.

But there are two groups of weapons I REALLY want to see back.

As for what I would want to be ditched, the bronze weapons plz. They were okay in Awakening, but besides that, they've just been useless. In RD, you got access to iron weapons pretty fast, making the bronze ones totally redundant. I also don't like crossbows. Either make them a bit stronger, or get rid of them all together. They're so weak and regular bows outclass them in every way. I'm glad they weren't in Awakening.

Oh, and if this counts, I want the laguz or laguz equivalent, as usual. I never liked the dragonstone and beaststone business. I very much preferred the claws, breath, talons, and fangs that the laguz had. The laguz could transform without stones and although this meant that they couldn't do much offensively when they had to return to their human forms (due to their transformation gauge), this can still be useful too. Their punches and kicks aren't strong, so they can potentially weaken enemies for your weaker units to kill and get exp from. Also, the laguz's transformation gauges filled up faster when they were attacked, so they'll be able to transform again in no time. They could also use certain items to fill it up or transform again quicker. The laguz are really powerful in their animal forms too, so I felt that their transformation gauge balanced them out so you couldn't just spam them. A weakness to certain types of magic also balanced them.

Of course, there were also the laguz royals who were broken because of their ability to remain transformed. My solution to that? Keep them NPCs. :P Or make one or two playable ONLY at the last chapter or last couple of chapters. PoR did it right with how you got to choose between Naesala, Tibarn, or Giffca in the Endgame, though Giffca wasn't a royal. You could also make the enemies strong enough to be a potential threat to them unless you add in your other units to help them out. Or, the ability to remain transformed can just be removed all together, though that would make the royals stand out a bit less.

Bronze is ok as long as its available for enough of the early game to make worth using another consideration is needing to give it to units to raise their weapon level from E. Of course a solution to this is to have their secondary weapon status start either at D or C status.

As for the stones I actually liked them better because I didn't have to worry about manaketes or taguels being completely defenseless and effectively not use them for the first few turns (in most cases the whole chapter) for them to transform. I was also one of the dicks who just went straight to using laguz stones or using royals only.

[Florete]

But on the other hand, you get situations where the people who would want to use a stronger weapon get punished for it, which just serves to widen the gap between units (and I think this applies to all weight systems). And honestly, I don't like instances like the likes of FE7's Durandal, where a weapon is rendered bad to outright unusable for being too heavy.

This is where balance comes in. Implementation will always be flawed somewhat, but you can at least have a good system.

[Baldrick]

A heavy weapon might be bad in some circumstances, that is true. But the same can be said for low might/low hit/low use etc. weapons. Should we make all weapons have the same might/hit/uses? And remove any extra effects, too: if a special weapon is the best one to use in any situation, that "takes away our tactical options" and we can't have that. A dodgy sword-user means we can't use axe users against him, so remove the weapon triangle, it limits our tactical options. A tough unit can't be damaged by a low-str unit? Make all units have the same stats, no unit has growths that could mess that balance up, our tactical options will be maximised then!

On topic: all weapons should have 10 might, 200 hit (a miss might limit our tactical options) 0 crit, no added effects

Edited January 18, 2015 by Baldrick

[Neoleo21]

I just don't want a weapon combo so Powerful that it breaks the game, like Nosferatu/galeforce that's approaching MK brawl levels of OP. Having a go to weapon is fine, just make sure that it doesn't make positioning brain dead.

[Hong]

If they want to take the east/west references to the extreme that they have, eastern weapons will probably be more fragile and focused on sharpness (mt/crit?) than the more robust and meaty western counterparts. Good minerals were relatively scarce in that era and reflected on the armour and equipment compositions of that time. Not saying weapons in a game will be realistic to their inspirations, so much as they could see it as an inspiration for game design.

Worthy of note is also how the series famous rapier was historically designed to get between plates of mail or links of chain and is of course European in origin. Using such examples in this game, if a choice of faction is involved it could influence which kind of special weapon we get. That fan and club reflects on more to come on the eastern side of things.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Hong

[ClassyWolf]

That fan and club reflects on more to come on the eastern side of things.

I've posted this already earlier, but I think the fan may be actually based on ofuda, paper charms.

[Missile]

I wonder what the Ice tome seen in the trailer has side effects

[Neoleo21]

Interestingly, why IS ice magic here? Statistically the original 3 elements were covered, so ice magic has to do something other than damage right?

[Trickster]

The Ice tome could literally be the blizzard spell that was in previous games, we've had them before guys....

[Missile]

The Ice tome could literally be the blizzard spell that was in previous games, we've had them before guys....

Either it was a powerful wind tome or a long distance tome.

This ice tome looks kinda weak so what's the point to have a weak Ice tome when you already have a wind tome as powerful ?

[Aiddon]

Either it was a powerful wind tome or a long distance tome.

This ice tome looks kinda weak so what's the point to have a weak Ice tome when you already have a wind tome as powerful ?

Yeah, ice spells were typically for VERY powerful wind magic. Maybe we'll also see some water spells.

[Magical Glace]

Personally:

1. Light magic, heh.

2. Reaver weapons. On top of that, have special weaponry that doubles the triangle but doesn't reverse it. Because, ya know, Reavers doubled it too.

3. Have magic reavers cuz wynaut. Of course, this comes with the return of the trinity of magic, preferably the GBA one or the RD dual one. I'm not a fan of the Jugdral/PoR trinity on its own, I can't remember it that well.

4. Bring back FE10's supreme physical weapons. Really, why ditch Wind Edges, Storm Swords, and Tempest Blades, but keep Javelins/Short Spears/Spears and Hand Axes/Short Axes/Tomahawks? You were a step closer to actually balancing your game IS!

5. 1-5 range bows, just like FE2.

6. Magic has variety. It's great.

[Shadow Knight]

The Ice tome could literally be the blizzard spell that was in previous games, we've had them before guys....

I'm wondering if the elements are going to play a larger role in this game than previous games. There's one scene in the trailer where a female dual supports and attacks an enemy with a physical sword or staff that suddenly becomes engulfed in fire.

Perhaps we'll be able to customize weapons to have certain elemental effects.