I'm tired of people saying games are too easy these days.

[Magical Glace]

On ALBW Hero mode (specifically this one, idk about the others), you basically have to be perfect to survive... I once ran into a moblin near Ravio's house, from behind, with all 7 of my current hearts full... died instantly.

That said, ALBW has tough enemies by Zelda standards, even on normal. so Idk. Its boss patterns are simple but their damage output is ludicrous,

As for games in general, I don't find them too hard or too easy. Unless it's Unidentified Fantastic Object. 2 hard 4 me

[Anacybele]

Skyward Sword is my least favorite Zelda game for just how much the game holds your freaking hand, and how Fi constantly, constantly, constantly interrupts the gameplay.

This is the only time I don't like when people say Skyward Sword is their least favorite. They didn't like the gameplay or dungeons or whatever, fine, that's your opinion. But imo, hating it only because of ONE thing in it is silly.

Skyward Sword is WAY more than just Fi's dialogue. It's my favorite Zelda because of the story, characters, gameplay, the overworld, and the dungeons. I didn't mind the linearity or anything at all, personally. And I like Fi's voice and her dancing.

[Draco]

Fun fact: SS is the only Zelda game (not counting CDi) I still haven't played.

[Czar_Yoshi]

If a game is too challenging the first time through and there's no OP newgame+ benefits, self-impose a challenge. Get creative. If the game feels like a babby-made slogfest, then get creative to add challenge. Why do you think Nuzlockes and monotype runs and their ilk are so widely done in Pokemon now?

Being easy is only bad when it makes the game more boring, and as such self-imposed challenges only help with that problem if the difficulty increase makes the game less boring. Can a self-imposed difficulty increase to Skyward Sword do anything about the excessive tutorials and hand-holding? Nope. Challenge runs are great but they don't work on every game.

If you think there are too many easy games, play harder games.

If you think there are too many hard games, play easier games.

Unfortunately, difficulty is not the one and only factor to take into consideration when choosing what game to play, so that doesn't work. A game could have many selling points but also be rock-bottom in difficulty- would you suggest that I fix that by moving to a game with fewer/different/less important to me selling points that has higher difficulty? If what I want is to play easy game A and be challenged, changing to difficult game B is not a fix for that because I'm not getting what I want- it would be challenging, but not game A and I want both.

This is the only time I don't like when people say Skyward Sword is their least favorite. They didn't like the gameplay or dungeons or whatever, fine, that's your opinion. But imo, hating it only because of ONE thing in it is silly.

I don't like...

-Forced padding. Too many things that should have been optional sidequests are part of the main quest, forcing you to do them when the game wants you to.

-No exploration. A product of the above; when you take optional things and put them in the main story there winds up being nothing left to find/do when you wander away from the present objective.

-The Imprisoned. Such an annoying boss, and fought far too often.

-Looong unskippable tutorial. Takes ages to get to do anything.

-Fi interrupts everything and can't be turned off. I don't want to be told what I already know.

-New forest and water races aren't even remotely cool.

-Tadtones. They come out of nowhere and serve no purpose.

-The Bird has no plot significance.

-Clawshots aren't nearly as useful or fun to use.

-Music. The e3 trailer theme isn't in the game (one (bad) remix that doesn't loop and only plays in one spot doesn't count).

-Ganondorf. As a result of his not getting an updated design in SS SSB4 is still using TP dorf, who's kind of boring.

Are Fi and handholding on that list? Yes. And in a discussion about difficulty, they're going to get brought up. But why would someone bring up, say, that Bird in this context? It doesn't make sense and would just be an out-of-context rant against a game that may or may not deserve it. I'm sure Jedi has plenty of other things about SS that bug him, but Fi was the only one relevant to bring up here.

Skyward Sword is WAY more than just Fi's dialogue.

Brawl is way more than tripping, but does that make tripping not completely intrusive and annoying?

[Loki Laufeyson]

Skyward Sword was fake difficulty incarnate and its bad design. I hate that game.

While I do think that being older and having more playing experience (better reflexes, more critical thinking, etc) does play a role in the difficulty (or lack thereof) in games being released at present, I don't think it's the sole factor.

Take examples of some classic NES games, for instance. Even adult gamers with decades of playing experience still have trouble clearing Battletoads on the NES because it can be that unforgiving. You have to remember that games made back for the NES, Genesis/Mega Drive, SNES, etc., especially those that did not contain the capacity to save, were created to be difficult as a means of padding out playing times. Players were expected to do poorly, forcing them to replay the game until they were able to master it and beat the game.

Nowadays, some games have in-level checkpoints/auto-saves, meaning you can just revert to a backup and redo something if you fail, significantly reducing the amount of content that you'd need to play through to get back to where you were. Plus, with the advent of more storage capacity for discs and/or digital storage, some of the constraints that were imposed on older games (possibly) due to technology limitations (thereby making the game more difficult) are no longer issues.

Do I think that all games need to be "NES-Hard"? Absolutely not. As you said, games like Pokémon need to be accomodating to new players. Plus, with the influx of the "casual" market (mobile/tablet gaming, the Wii explosion, etc.), those players need to be accomodated too. However, it's basically empirically proven that Pokémon (for example), even factoring in player age, has gotten easier over time. I mean, just look at Sabrina's team in Yellow - three Level 50 Pokémon (only two of which really count though, being the Kadabra and Alakazam) and all of the undisputed best type in Gen 1! Nowadays, we get cases where the Elite Four consists of a "Choose your own order, we only have four Pokémon to choose from, and we don't even have a Round 2!" setup, which isn't really challenging, even if you self-impose challenges on yourself.

The statement I most agree with is your last, though. It's 2015 - I can't understand how all games (unless they're expressly tailored to a specific crowd like Battle Kid or something like that) aren't created with difficulty settings from the beginning*. It's a world where games are released so frequently that developers are basically fighting over the available pool of money more than they ever had before, and in that environment, don't you want your product to be readily accessible to the most amount of people, thereby increasing your likelihood of making a sale? (Note, this does not mean reducing the game to the Lowest Common Denominator just to attempt to draw in crowds that weren't going to buy the game and still won't buy it anyway.)

*Plus, speaking as somone holding a degree in Computer Science, it's basically a tenet of development that it's much harder to add/force something in to your product after you've already started than if you include that idea from the beginning and plan you development schedule accordingly; that is, if you say "We must have scalable difficulty levels for this game" when you're in early development, you can set that in motion in the beginning such that all of the other systems work with it in mind, which would be a much harder task if you try to add it in later. As someone who studied software engineering, this is astounding that major development companies don't want to factor it in (probably under the excuse of costing additional resources, but I digress).

Preach, ser! Preach!

I beat the OG Castlevania when i was like, 10. I cant beat that game now. (same with Legendary Wings and other NES oldies)
It cracks me up so hard when people say today's gaming is marketed toward "filthy casuals". You know, the old school gaming scene was for casuals too. Like, RPGs were kinda rare up until the SNES era, and we had more arcade style games for one shot play sessions. Games like Shadowgate were hardcore, despite the point-and-click nature of it. Metroid and Zelda were also pretty hardcore cuz it required more than one sitdown to play them, and how big those worlds were. But shit like Double Dragon was "casual".

We get all these huge game worlds to explore, so shit doesnt need to be hella difficult. I dont think games are too easy now. I think its just the industry is different and thats all there is to it. They will always make games for newcomers or "casuals".

If a game is too challenging the first time through and there's no OP newgame+ benefits, self-impose a challenge. Get creative. If the game feels like a babby-made slogfest, then get creative to add challenge. Why do you think Nuzlockes and monotype runs and their ilk are so widely done in Pokemon now?

I feel like people are bitching at the developers for their personal lack of creativity - if it's not fun because the game is intristically bad then it's one thing, but if you enjoy the game outside of the lower-than-desired gameplay, then make it harder on yourself in some way. Spice it up, try something new, stop bitching about games you don't hate just because they aren't Dark Souls-hard.

Or, i dunno, go indie? Leik...

Seriously, im kinda done with mainstream gaming outside the Nintendo franchises i follow. (FE, Animal Crossing, Zelda, etc) Indie devs are making junk that appeals to every kind of gamer on the planet, because they are the demographic. So im gonna trust someone to create a game with an inventive new idea and implement challenge, because they too, are gamers. They know what they want, they know what i want. I dont want Skyrim, Assassin's Creed, etc. I want fun stuff to play and uncharted territory. A lot of indie games can be really hard too. Some are NES hard because they are deliberately trying to recapture that kind of difficulty.

[Anacybele]

I personally enjoyed not having Ganondorf in the game since I don't like him much. I never mind the long tutorials. In fact, I rather like them because it gives you a taste of the characters' lives before all the bad stuff starts. I've already talked about Fi. I thought that the Kikwis were kinda cute and that the water race was kinda cool. The Mogmas were funny lol. The robots in Lanayru were eh though.

Normally, I don't like a lack of exploration either, but the story was enough to keep me entertained. I also loved the music.

I will agree that the Imprisoned WAS an annoying boss though.

This is just my opinion though.

Brawl is way more than tripping, but does that make tripping not completely intrusive and annoying?

Sure, but does that automatically make Brawl a bad game? No.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Anacybele

[shadowofchaos]

I'm just going to drop this here because I see this topic a lot and I often use this video as the source for arguing about game difficulty, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWFzFsHc75U

I'll drop this too because it's also relevant. Based Extra Credits is based (despite what their stance on the "Gamersgate" issue may be...).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs

Extra Credits is amazing source material when it comes to discussions like these.

The hit the finer points of complaints.

Even looking at the reasons behind those complaints. Like how even people themselves don't know the cause of why they're complaining.

It's glorious.

I might sound elitist from this, but thanks to Interceptor and others, I've learned to appreciate the genius that is Lunatic+ in Awakening. People are too fast to say "It's not difficult enough" and when they are given it, they say "it's stupid! It's crap design and fake difficulty!" when they are given exactly what they want and just can't look past the surface.

Edited February 4, 2015 by shadowofchaos

[Kon]

This is the only time I don't like when people say Skyward Sword is their least favorite. They didn't like the gameplay or dungeons or whatever, fine, that's your opinion. But imo, hating it only because of ONE thing in it is silly.

Skyward Sword is WAY more than just Fi's dialogue. It's my favorite Zelda because of the story, characters, gameplay, the overworld, and the dungeons. I didn't mind the linearity or anything at all, personally. And I like Fi's voice and her dancing.

It's a legitimate complaint, and one of the many reasons I really don't care for Skyward Sword. I love the characters and the story isn't too bad, but every time Fi opens her fucking mouth to tell me about some random thing that I could have figured out on my own I like the game less and less. I do not appreciate being pulled away from the game just to get some stupid trivia. If I wanted it, I would have asked for it.

Really it just makes me love Paper Mario more, because if I wanted to know something about an enemy/person/place, I could just take out Goombario or Goombella (I've only played the first and second games ~o3o~) and have them tell me. It's entirely optional and in no way disrupts the gameplay because you made that decision. It's even beneficial because they straight up tell you the stats of an enemy and their HP bar is visible for every encounter afterwards.

And from what I've found, most who don't like Skyward Sword have more reasons than Fi, she just happens to be the most obnoxious offender. The gameplay itself was also pretty ass since you were forced to use the motion controls because it was supposed to make things more "challenging" and make you think your actually using the sword. Nice concept, except there's no option for even left-handed players (which makes it more difficult to actually play) and the controls themselves are finicky and constantly need to calibrate and recalibrate, which breaks the immersion even more and just makes it a pain to even play.

The dungeons were largely boring, and having to go through the same dungeons just made the game hat much more of a chore to play. There wasn't even enough (read: any) exploration to do, which happens to be my favorite part of fucking Zelda games. I want to be let loose to find secret treasures and caves, not run into dead end at every corner, and not even the sky was fun to go through, because you're not allowed to get this thing or do that thing yet. Why not? If I found a thing I should be able to do something with it, not have to wait around to find some asinine block to unlock a goddamned chest. By the time I get to open those stupid chests I don't even care what's in it anymore, I just want to open it so I can move on. Where is the fun in that?

And fuck the tutorials. I shouldn't have to slog through an hour+ just to play the fucking game. There are much better ways to introduce the characters and far better ways to teach me to play the game like, oh I dunno, letting me play the fucking game?

Fuck Skyward Sword

[Jave]

I agree with a lot of the points presented, but I think an influential factor is that gamers' mentality has changed. This image illustrates what I mean:

[Sentacotus]

Wow when did this turn to a Skyward Sword hate thread?

Personally, I still have my favorite being OOT and MM (probably always will) but I still think SS was a damn good game. The Imprisoned was annoying to fight three times and I dreaded fighting it but I think that's the point each time it came back stronger and harder to beat. Ghirahim is one of my favorite villans in Zelda ever perfect combination of creepy, dark, and flamboyant also extremely fun to fight sword to sword with. Same with Demise just damn was that boss fight epic. I never had any problems at all with the motion controls and thought that Skyward Sword is a demonstration of what the Wiimote should of been from the begining. Hell its all we were expecting. The Silent Realm was probably one of the hardest parts of the game especially the last one just fuck those guardians. The music and presentation was some of the best in the series but to me thats no suprise it kinda always is with each subsequent Zelda title the main theme is one of my favorites. Groose nuff said. As for the story I actually thought is was done better than previous titles with references and allusions to practically all past games in the series and since it was an orgin story it was actually really interesting. The Master Sword was no longer just a blade but you witnessed seeing it become the mythical legendary weapon it is.

Either way everyone is entitled to their opinion but I think the flaws or seeming bad parts of the game are overshadowed by its good aspects.

[algae]

Sure, but does that automatically make Brawl a bad game? No.

If it happens often enough to get in the way, it can. I can pretty easily see someone losing a match to a poorly timed trip, which (obviously enough) is pretty bad for something you don't have any control over and can't exactly play around.

You can pretty easily like a game in spite of its flaws (it's something everyone does with everything they like), but that doesn't really make them go away.

[Anacybele]

It's a legitimate complaint, and one of the many reasons I really don't care for Skyward Sword. I love the characters and the story isn't too bad, but every time Fi opens her fucking mouth to tell me about some random thing that I could have figured out on my own I like the game less and less. I do not appreciate being pulled away from the game just to get some stupid trivia. If I wanted it, I would have asked for it.

Really it just makes me love Paper Mario more, because if I wanted to know something about an enemy/person/place, I could just take out Goombario or Goombella (I've only played the first and second games ~o3o~) and have them tell me. It's entirely optional and in no way disrupts the gameplay because you made that decision. It's even beneficial because they straight up tell you the stats of an enemy and their HP bar is visible for every encounter afterwards.

And from what I've found, most who don't like Skyward Sword have more reasons than Fi, she just happens to be the most obnoxious offender. The gameplay itself was also pretty ass since you were forced to use the motion controls because it was supposed to make things more "challenging" and make you think your actually using the sword. Nice concept, except there's no option for even left-handed players (which makes it more difficult to actually play) and the controls themselves are finicky and constantly need to calibrate and recalibrate, which breaks the immersion even more and just makes it a pain to even play.

The dungeons were largely boring, and having to go through the same dungeons just made the game hat much more of a chore to play. There wasn't even enough (read: any) exploration to do, which happens to be my favorite part of fucking Zelda games. I want to be let loose to find secret treasures and caves, not run into dead end at every corner, and not even the sky was fun to go through, because you're not allowed to get this thing or do that thing yet. Why not? If I found a thing I should be able to do something with it, not have to wait around to find some asinine block to unlock a goddamned chest. By the time I get to open those stupid chests I don't even care what's in it anymore, I just want to open it so I can move on. Where is the fun in that?

And fuck the tutorials. I shouldn't have to slog through an hour+ just to play the fucking game. There are much better ways to introduce the characters and far better ways to teach me to play the game like, oh I dunno, letting me play the fucking game?

Fuck Skyward Sword

Whatever, I'm not going to sit here and listen to people bash my favorite non-FE game and complain to me for liking it.

And for the record, I don't like Paper Mario games (except for SPM). I ignored Sticker Star because it wasn't going to be like SPM. Fuck Paper Mario.

[Jedi]

Well skyward sword did have some solid dungeons and gameplay, its just the fact that Fi gets rid of one of the main elements of Zelda (the mystery), irked me. IMO hero mode was an awesome idea, its just that every time I play I'm dreading the next time fi is going to interrupt me. Or that the tedium will continue.

[Interest]

Extra Credits is amazing source material when it comes to discussions like these.

The hit the finer points of complaints.

Even looking at the reasons behind those complaints. Like how even people themselves don't know the cause of why they're complaining.

It's glorious.

I might sound elitist from this, but thanks to Interceptor and others, I've learned to appreciate the genius that is Lunatic+ in Awakening. People are too fast to say "It's not difficult enough" and when they are given it, they say "it's stupid! It's crap design and fake difficulty!" when they are given exactly what they want and just can't look past the surface.

Actually...Lunatic+ is arguably punishing difficulty. It injects randomness to the point it's pretty much "so these enemies have those skills? Restart." I wouldn't say the difficulty is fake or artificial so much as it is poorly designed because it's next to impossible to play around it earlier on short of being forced to restart and pray RNG is kind. Later on I'd argue the design is tolerable since there is, from what I can tell, far more room to play around enemies with certain skills (your characters are stronger, you have access to more characters and combinations, etc.)

Edited February 4, 2015 by Interest

[Dual Dragons]

While I think games are getting easier, I think it's just because I'm getting older and adapting to particular genres of games (SRPGs, JRPGs, puzzle games like Prof Layton). Or just I'm getting older and my controls are getting refined. I barely touched platformers but I can still do DuckTales Remastered, the main game of SNES Donkey Kong 1 and 2, and Sly Cooper. I bet as a kid, I would be crap at them.

But I'm still shit at old school Mario and Sonic. I'm ashamed to admit that.

As a kid, I barely put into thought of studying gameplay mechanics or taking risks for great rewards. So the rolling jump off cliffs for Donkey Kong or the chances for Sly to stand on the second closest pole instead of the first to shave off time, those would probably be unthought of to a younger me.

So I guess my own example for complaining about easy games would be Awakening when it made Casual mode available for the first time to people outside of Japan. I hated it in the way that it felt like they were "accommodating" to "filthy casuals" and not keeping to the niche status they were. I had to bite my own tongue down hard in the realization that that "accommodation" and "loss of dignity" that I felt they were doing was to save Fire Emblem. Now it, like as shown in Interest's posted videos, was adapting to make itself be "more approachable." I mean, the perma-death was still there for me as a difficulty setting, which I was glad for, but this was my initial reaction. Now I kind of don't care as much... minus that I use Casual mode on Lunatic+ for the extra save slots. I still reset if a person goes down.

Whatever, I'm not going to sit here and listen to people bash my favorite non-FE game and complain to me for liking it.

And for the record, I don't like Paper Mario games (except for SPM). I ignored Sticker Star because it wasn't going to be like SPM. Fuck Paper Mario.

You know, a game is not an extension of you as a person. If you really were "whatever" about it, why do you feel the need to say "fuck Paper Mario" as a retaliation?

You don't see me seething at the fact you said that to one of my favorite games on the N64. I mean, come on.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Dual Dragons

[Loki Laufeyson]

Fuck Skyward Sword

So much. Those videos Interest posted actually address the issues with that particular title. (even though the second video conveniently ignored that in FE13, the game warns you of Asshole Reinforcements.) The tutorial part of Skyward Sword is bullshit and exceedingly long. It tried to give us a Noob Cave, but players are left wanting. The game then, becomes punishing with Silent Realms nonsense. Plus the repetition. Having to fight a big boss 3 times in one game is actually really lame and the only issue i had with the game, Okami. Three times! Three times you fight that Orochi fucker! Instead of being "oooh fun! This fun boss again!" it becomes a giant anxiety attack. Skyward Sword is such a good example of bad game design for that particular genre. It was punishing, restricting, and tried to hold your hand when it wasnt necessary. I think this is why A Link Between Worlds is simply better, despite its rehashed world. The game gives you so many options and never holds your hand that tight.

Whatever, I'm not going to sit here and listen to people bash my favorite non-FE game and complain to me for liking it.

And for the record, I don't like Paper Mario games (except for SPM). I ignored Sticker Star because it wasn't going to be like SPM. Fuck Paper Mario.

Stop missing the point. Shes talking about design, not your damn opinion.

[Anacybele]

You know, a game is not an extension of you as a person. If you really were "whatever" about it, why do you feel the need to say "fuck Paper Mario" as a retaliation?

You don't see me seething at the fact you said that to one of my favorite games on the N64. I mean, come on.

Well, I suppose. I wasn't actually talking about the N64 Paper Mario, as I've never played it. I meant TTYD for the GC. I'm probably going to sell it, I quit playing it a long time ago.

EDIT: I don't care what her point was. My point was that people here are needlessly dissing Skyward Sword all over the place just because I'm saying I like it.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Anacybele

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I think games now in days just seem easier because the more you play them the better you get at them. For games like Zelda and Metroid you get used to seeing the same kinds of puzzles so you know what to do from the get go. That being said Metroid Prime on the GCN was one of the hardest most frustrating games I have played same for FE7 granted I was 13 at the time and it was my very first but still. I even find Lunatic on FEA to be a challenge I didn't even want to try + after that. Another more modern release that's quite challenging is Bayonetta 2. Third Climax and Musselpheim portals are straight up torture and go ahead and try and get Pure Platinum on all acts.

Nah, generally speaking, game series that were born in like the NES days have definitely toned down in terms of difficulty. But does saying "games are easier these days" strictly apply to ALL games of today? Fuck no, as Red Fox said there ARE games out there specifically made to either be difficult or pay homage to the older days in terms of difficulty. Some examples of these are Dark Souls, Volgarr the Viking and Oniken (the latter 2 being the 'homage to the old days' type).

It is not wrong to say "games these days are easier", it is wrong to say "ALL games of today are easier". Let's take Zelda for example

You got Zelda 1 and 2 which are probably the 2 most difficult games in the series due to enemy placement, damage they can do, lack of instruction that isn't cryptic, etc.

Then let's fast forward to Ocarina of Time where as Egoraptor has pointed out, much of the combat is just an exercise in waiting and then move on to Twilight Princess where THE KING OF EVIL deals less damage to you than a freaking crab in Link to the Past.

Plus some of the games in the past were deliberately made more challenging than needed to be since the hardware restrictions back then didn't allow for much content and the way to get more playtime on such games is through making it challenging enough so that people had to struggle and get better at the game in order to see new content.

The main reason why games today are generally easier is because there's just a greater focus on presentation. Gaming has become more mainstream than it was in the past and publishers aren't looking to get money from people looking for a challenge, they're looking to sell it to more people and presentation plays a big part in getting the game acknowledged by a broader audience.

And man, you complain a lot.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Sirius

[shadowofchaos]

Haha...actually...Lunatic+ is arguably punishing difficulty. It injects randomness to the point it's pretty much "so these enemies have those skills? Restart." I wouldn't say the difficulty is fake or artificial so much as it is poorly designed because it's next to impossible to play around it earlier on short of being forced to restart and pray RNG is kind. Later on I'd argue the design is tolerable since there is, from what I can tell, far more room to play around enemies with certain skills (your characters are stronger, you have access to more characters and combinations, etc.)

I can definitely say it's not perfect by a longshot. It ALIENATES people at the beginning and understandably so. Only if you get past Chapter 2/3 and start going with it that you can appreciate the genius of the random skills. Understanding the reasons behind the design prevents/mitigates the ragequit.

...Also my gosh the Skyward Sword drama here, haha.

I love Skyward Sword and I need to finish it, but I can acknowledge the criticisms here, especially Fi.

But for someone to say "stop bashing my favorite non-FE game" only shows the lack of understanding of the flaws of the game they love.

If you love a game, you should love it for what it is and be familiar with the flaws of the game, instead of refusing to see it.

Loving a game does not mean it is immune from criticism or that people can just not like the game because they don't like it.

[Anacybele]

I never said that Skyward Sword didn't have flaws. I agreed that the Imprisoned is annoying and I can see why some people would dislike Fi. But that's all. I always disagreed that the gameplay and dungeons were bad and that it's an easy game and such.

[Shin]

I got really bored reading the thread, but I like to think games nowadays just have a lot more variety in games. Back in the day, games couldn't be particularly long due to various limitations so they often made up for length with difficulty.

Nowadays, games can be a lot longer, so they don't have the same restraints. Modern games tend to have difficulty settings, which older ones often lacked. Like I may have disliked SS's gameplay, difficulty and level designs, but it was a game some people enjoyed and it did have a more difficult mode for people who wanted it. Plus, gaming's a way wider market now, so there's easier and harder titles which target different audiences. There's no point making games that people aren't going to finish, but on the flip side, there's usually some higher challenge for those who want it.

TLDR: Modern games either have easier modes included or are for a more casual market, woop.

[Kon]

Whatever, I'm not going to sit here and listen to people bash my favorite non-FE game and complain to me for liking it.

And for the record, I don't like Paper Mario games (except for SPM). I ignored Sticker Star because it wasn't going to be like SPM. Fuck Paper Mario.

Except I'm not bashing it? I'm stating why I did not like the game and explaining why. It's not like I just walked into the topic to say "Skyward Sword fucking sucked!!!11!!1" and leave. That's just dickish. And I never once said that you were wrong for liking it (and no one else did either), you're free to like whatever you like, I'm not about to judge you for it. But saying that I'm bashing it is

And that was really rude and completely unnecessary to just insult the Paper Mario series just because I brought it up as a comparison. If it was to retaliate to the "Fuck Skyward Sword" remark, that's just... childish. I said that because while I don't hate it at the same time it's something that really frustrates me because it wasn't a fun game to play even when I really wanted to like it.

EDIT: I don't care what her point was. My point was that people here are needlessly dissing Skyward Sword all over the place just because I'm saying I like it.

Obviously you didn't. You're the one that brought up your opinion about Skyward Sword in the first place, in the first post, even. It's natural for other people to give their own opinion on it, whether it's positive or not. No one's even telling you to not like the game because they don't, they're just explaining why they didn't like the game.

I never said that Skyward Sword didn't have flaws. I agreed that the Imprisoned is annoying and I can see why some people would dislike Fi. But that's all. I always disagreed that the gameplay and dungeons were bad and that it's an easy game and such.

And just because you disagree doesn't make them wrong or you right. But throwing a fit because people don't like one of your favorite games is not a good way to go about things.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Kon

[Dual Dragons]

Well, I suppose. I wasn't actually talking about the N64 Paper Mario, as I've never played it. I meant TTYD for the GC. I'm probably going to sell it, I quit playing it a long time ago.

EDIT: I don't care what her point was. My point was that people here are needlessly dissing Skyward Sword all over the place just because I'm saying I like it.

I took your "fuck Paper Mario" towards the whole series except SPM.

I don't think it's because you like it that people are starting to pour what they hated into Skyward Sword (which I haven't played so I'm saying this as a third-party comment on what happened). It was the comment you made that people only seemed to dislike it for the hand-holding and Fi as only one thing to dislike the game, when those comments were the only relevant points to make for the original topic's discussion. They wanted to then provide further why they hated it to you so it wasn't just the hand-holding and Fi statements. How a couple of them got incensed and expressed it in their posts, yeah, maybe was very charged but don't take it as an insult to yourself. You're not the game, right?

I get it. It's very hard when the game you like others don't. I think it's just best to say "well that's more of the game for me to like" and move on. A weird analogy but it's like when a friend and I were discussing food and I mentioned some fruit and my friend said they don't like it. All they said after was, "Well, that's more for you to like, right?" You can't do much to change people's opinions about certain things so sometimes you got to change it to a positive for yourself.

The whole point of this post is so you don't feel like you're getting attacked for your likes. Hope that came across.

[Sentacotus]

Nah, generally speaking, game series that were born in like the NES days have definitely toned down in terms of difficulty. But does saying "games are easier these days" strictly apply to ALL games of today? Fuck no, as Red Fox said there ARE games out there specifically made to either be difficult or pay homage to the older days in terms of difficulty. Some examples of these are Dark Souls, Volgarr the Viking and Oniken (the latter 2 being the 'homage to the old days' type).

It is not wrong to say "games these days are easier", it is wrong to say "ALL games of today are easier". Let's take Zelda for example

You got Zelda 1 and 2 which are probably the 2 most difficult games in the series due to enemy placement, damage they can do, lack of instruction that isn't cryptic, etc.

Then let's fast forward to Ocarina of Time where as Egoraptor has pointed out, much of the combat is just an exercise in waiting and then move on to Twilight Princess where THE KING OF EVIL deals less damage to you than a freaking crab in Link to the Past.

Plus some of the games in the past were deliberately made more challenging than needed to be since the hardware restrictions back then didn't allow for much content and the way to get more playtime on such games is through making it challenging enough so that people had to struggle and get better at the game in order to see new content.

The main reason why games today are generally easier is because there's just a greater focus on presentation. Gaming has become more mainstream than it was in the past and publishers aren't looking to get money from people looking for a challenge, they're looking to sell it to more people and presentation plays a big part in getting the game acknowledged by a broader audience.

And man, you complain a lot.

I gotta agree some of the NES games are just brutal just look at the Ninja Gaiden trilogy and yeah Zelda II is just nightmarish. I do think there are hard games out there though like some of the ones I mentioned and I still love em to death though.

And sorry I guess I didn't realize I was complaining at all. I'll try to refrain...

Edited February 4, 2015 by LordTaco42

[Anacybele]

And that was really rude and completely unnecessary to just insult the Paper Mario series just because I brought it up as a comparison. If it was to retaliate to the "Fuck Skyward Sword" remark, that's just... childish. I said that because while I don't hate it at the same time it's something that really frustrates me because it wasn't a fun game to play even when I really wanted to like it.

Well, that "Fuck Skyward Sword" comment really ticked me off, so I thought I'd try to show you how I felt about it.

I took your "fuck Paper Mario" towards the whole series except SPM.

I don't think it's because you like it that people are starting to pour what they hated into Skyward Sword (which I haven't played so I'm saying this as a third-party comment on what happened). It was the comment you made that people only seemed to dislike it for the hand-holding and Fi as only one thing to dislike the game, when those comments were the only relevant points to make for the original topic's discussion. They wanted to then provide further why they hated it to you so it wasn't just the hand-holding and Fi statements. How a couple of them got incensed and expressed it in their posts, yeah, maybe was very charged but don't take it as an insult to yourself. You're not the game, right?

I get it. It's very hard when the game you like others don't. I think it's just best to say "well that's more of the game for me to like" and move on. A weird analogy but it's like when a friend and I were discussing food and I mentioned some fruit and my friend said they don't like it. All they said after was, "Well, that's more for you to like, right?" You can't do much to change people's opinions about certain things so sometimes you got to change it to a positive for yourself.

The whole point of this post is so you don't feel like you're getting attacked for your likes. Hope that came across.

This is a better way to explain things here to me. Thanks, Dual Dragons, now I see where I was misunderstanding others. I felt like I was being attacked because as Kon said, I was the first to bring up Skyward Sword, then someone else mentioned not liking it, then I responded and the rest is history.