Difficulty.

[feplus]

You're posing a different question: is grinding in Awakening viable? That relies on data. Whether grinding should be factored into difficulty evaluation is a conceptual question and does not involve data.

I never recommended grinding against Luna+ Risen. That would be foolish.

[eclipse]

You're posing a different question: is grinding in Awakening viable? That relies on data. Whether grinding should be factored into difficulty evaluation is a conceptual question and does not involve data.

I never recommended grinding against Luna+ Risen. That would be foolish.

Your "trivialization" of Lunatic relies on grinding.

The Risen stats were an example of backing up your words with data. Your theory would be slightly less ridiculous if it involved DLC, as the stats on the grind-specific maps aren't stupidly out of the question (but your theory would still be terrible, because it only accounts for the stats/skill side and not the actual maps themselves).

Edited February 15, 2015 by eclipse

[Refa]

I picked FE5/FE11 because I want the only difficulty level that matters; the kind that can be trivialized with infinite range Warp. :3

[feplus]

More precisely, it recommends SpotPass grinding. Talking about Risen is a nonsequitur.

[eclipse]

Apparently "back your words up with data" is an alien concept to you. Therefore, as long as you continue with that attitude, your theories will be full of holes. Speaking of Risen skirmishes and stat inflation, Spotpass teams get the same bonuses. I'm pretty sure base Karel doesn't have 43 Speed.

[feplus]

I will repeat myself:

1. Whether or not we consider grinding when evaluating difficulty is a conceptual question.

2. You are asking, instead, whether grinding is viable in Awakening. I have said that SpotPass grinding is viable.

Are you under the impression that even the easiest SpotPass team is too difficult to grind against? If so, I am happy to correct that misconception with data.

[eclipse]

I will repeat myself:

1. Whether or not we consider grinding when evaluating difficulty is a conceptual question.

2. You are asking, instead, whether grinding is viable in Awakening. I have said that SpotPass grinding is viable.

Are you under the impression that even the easiest SpotPass team is too difficult to grind against? If so, I am happy to correct that misconception with data.

Concept means nothing without execution. And yes, I've been asking you for numbers for a VERY LONG TIME, now post them, as well as how/why you think this is feasible, and I'll be glad to tell you where the flaws in your logic are.

[feplus]

You do not understand what is meant by "conceptual question."

Here is the data for Nanna's Luna(+) SpotPass team. There are several other comparably easy teams. Which units stand out as to make grinding unfeasible?

[eclipse]

You do not understand what is meant by "conceptual question."

You don't understand what my problem is with you and your assertions, and that's to your detriment, not mine. Take the time to read and question, because I don't demand things like numbers unless I have a good reason to. If you honestly think you can make assertions that go against what the rest of the community is saying, and do so without proof, you're going to run into problems here.

Now, for that team. . .

Myrmidons - Frederick 3HKOs them (assuming no dual strikes, and an Iron Lance, because using the Silver Lance to grind is really stupid). In turn, he's 6HKO'd (assuming no Defense levels. . .but that's 3RKO'd unless he gets +3 Speed in some way, shape, or form)

Archers - Assuming Avatar is an overleveled powerhouse (as he/she should be), it'll take +9 Speed (including levels) to double these guys. Since Avatar can hit Res (and it's way more efficient, even with a Mag-screwed one), and assuming that Thunder is used, it'll take (33 - Avatar's Mag stat) + 1 turns to kill an archer.

Nanna - No one cares about her offense, but her ability to heal is pretty annoying, given the parameters I just outlined.

Why do I give specific examples? Chrom can keep himself from being doubled (on average, it'll take 9 levels to naturally hit 13 Speed), but he'll be 3-4HKO'd (that's the price of 11 Def on average). Sumia will have no problems NOT being doubled, but she's dead the minute an arrow comes close to her. Kellam can take the abuse from the myrmidons, but that's still a 5HKO at base (which is three rounds, because he's going to be doubled unless he gets +8 Speed). Pair-ups can alleviate several of these problems, namely "have X be not doubled, ever" (or in Kellam's case, "mitigate even more damage"). However, unless your name is Chrom, you will burn through your weapons, and early-on, this will hurt. By the time you get to the point where it's "LOLmoney", the stat gap between "doable" and "trivial" is such that you're better off trying to think of how to get through a map, as opposed to burn through more weapon uses. Do NOT get me started on skill grinding - that's going to burn through even more money, especially since Chrom has only so many classes where he can abuse Falchion.

Thus, my point stands - you're full of theory.

[feplus]

I'm not arguing against "the community"; I'm arguing against you.

Your analysis is mostly pointless since, as you say, Pair Up will mitigate any statistical deficiency. Money issues are dealt with via free Renown rewards, a point I have made repeatedly. And the more you grind, the easier grinding gets.

[Jedi]

I'm not arguing against "the community"; I'm arguing against you.

Your analysis is mostly pointless since, as you say, Pair Up will mitigate any statistical deficiency. Money issues are dealt with via free Renown rewards, a point I have made repeatedly. And the more you grind, the easier grinding gets.

You've been arguing against the community since you joined here, and you continue to not actually read eclipses posts and make assumptions

[feplus]

You've been arguing against the community since you joined here, and you continue to not actually read eclipses posts and make assumptions

I read eclipse's posts just fine.

I've been involved in two major arguments: that Casual hurts the FE experience, and that Luna+ is overblown in terms of challenge. Neither are majority opinions, but I'm not the only one who feels this way. This community, like any community, has a plurality of views. I think that's a positive.

[Florete]

You've been arguing against the community since you joined here

This is not a good way to act. By posting here, feplus is part of the community. The arguments may have been against the majority, but please don't make ostracizing comments like these.

[T-Bone]

However, unless your name is Chrom, you will burn through your weapons, and early-on, this will hurt. By the time you get to the point where it's "LOLmoney", the stat gap between "doable" and "trivial" is such that you're better off trying to think of how to get through a map, as opposed to burn through more weapon uses. Do NOT get me started on skill grinding - that's going to burn through even more money, especially since Chrom has only so many classes where he can abuse Falchion.

I feel like Feplus didn't give a very good example. If I were going to DLC grind abuse I would use this map http://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Awakening_LM_Enemy_Data:_Binding_Blade_SpotPass. Axe users are nice and easy (Also lol DLC doesn't have L+ abilities?) and mainly they're here to be good fodder for Vaike. Why Vaike? Because as you mentioned before you might run out of money grinding these teams, and Despoil alleviates this problem entirely. In fact once you're high enough support level with Chrom or Lissa (Both give decent +Luck supports in their default classes iirc) you'll make gold per map.

There is honestly probably a better map for Vaike to steal gold from everyone on, this was just the first one I saw that would be possible. Idk how soon you would be clear it but its obviously nothing to difficult to farm.

Obviously no one is forcing you to sit here and farm gold until all your characters have maxed supports/weapon levels (remember you can use those cheesy A rank weapons from the bonus box if you grind the skill) or levels if you're really patient, but I hope you can see how this breaks the balance of the game by removing the limited chances you normally have to power up your characters.

[Kaoz]

Money issues are dealt with via free Renown rewards, a point I have made repeatedly.

It's also a point nobody else has agreed with yet I believe - let's assume we had less Renown than the 1000 you assumed, would you still say that grinding is the way to go, and at which point does it become not worth it in your opinion? Furthermore, at which point would you start grinding exactly, right when it becomes available or would you wait a few chapters?

Also, will you grant my request and grind for an hour to see how many levels you get out of it? I frankly have a hard time making a good estimate.

[feplus]

It's also a point nobody else has agreed with yet I believe - let's assume we had less Renown than the 1000 you assumed, would you still say that grinding is the way to go, and at which point does it become not worth it in your opinion? Furthermore, at which point would you start grinding exactly, right when it becomes available or would you wait a few chapters?

Also, will you grant my request and grind for an hour to see how many levels you get out of it? I frankly have a hard time making a good estimate.

Why assume less? I think 1,000 Renown is a super conservative estimate already.

Sure, I'd be happy to try it. Using the Wolt map sounds intriguing.

[Kaoz]

Why assume less? I think 1,000 Renown is a super conservative estimate already.

Because you can start a L+ file with as little as 270 Renown or so (I had around 300 personally), so having a benchmark for when you have a chance to "trivialize" the mode seems relevant to me. I'm not really asking for more than a rough estimate here though.

What I'm more curious about is if it's more efficient to tackle the spotpass maps right after chapter 3 when they first become available, or if it'd be faster to clear a few more regular chapters first to gain some extra levels there and make the spotpass maps a bit faster instead.

Also looking forward to your test results.

[eclipse]

I read eclipse's posts just fine.

I've been involved in two major arguments: that Casual hurts the FE experience, and that Luna+ is overblown in terms of challenge. Neither are majority opinions, but I'm not the only one who feels this way. This community, like any community, has a plurality of views. I think that's a positive.

The Casual one - I think I've made my views plenty clear on this.

This one - I think everyone else that had an opinion against this has written you off (as I was not the first one to raise an objection, but I AM the most persistent).

Again, I see nothing about how to use the "assets" you continuously bring up, so my point that you're full of theory still stands. Until you can actually convert theory into application, complete with strategy, you're not going to change my mind.

I feel like Feplus didn't give a very good example. If I were going to DLC grind abuse I would use this map http://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Awakening_LM_Enemy_Data:_Binding_Blade_SpotPass. Axe users are nice and easy (Also lol DLC doesn't have L+ abilities?) and mainly they're here to be good fodder for Vaike. Why Vaike? Because as you mentioned before you might run out of money grinding these teams, and Despoil alleviates this problem entirely. In fact once you're high enough support level with Chrom or Lissa (Both give decent +Luck supports in their default classes iirc) you'll make gold per map.

There is honestly probably a better map for Vaike to steal gold from everyone on, this was just the first one I saw that would be possible. Idk how soon you would be clear it but its obviously nothing to difficult to farm.

Obviously no one is forcing you to sit here and farm gold until all your characters have maxed supports/weapon levels (remember you can use those cheesy A rank weapons from the bonus box if you grind the skill) or levels if you're really patient, but I hope you can see how this breaks the balance of the game by removing the limited chances you normally have to power up your characters.

Things that this requires: A Chrom support (he can dual attack for free, literally), a Second Seal, Vaike to not suck and gain seven levels, some rigging (since Despoil is based on Luck). This isn't something that can be done early, unless you sacrifice the Renown seal for this. The crux of this issue is the fact that Vaike will hit decently hard, but will face existent crit chance for a while because fuck Gamble, and that he'll probably be 2HKO'd regardless. Assuming Vaike survives the enemy phase, a healer will be needed if he was hit (hence, Lissa, since she gets Healtouch). This looks feasible on Casual, since it's possible to screw with the RNG via battle saves, and get Despoil to trigger that way.

However, this is still extremely inefficient, because once those weapons are gone, they're gone (unless you got insanely lucky and Anna sold you a Hammerne or something). The best you can hope for is a small profit before you're back to using store-bought weapons. Second, not everyone has those things unlocked - Kaoz is asking from that standpoint, and it's a perfectly valid point.

The fact that you brought up Despoil, and feplus didn't is interesting, but it's more telling of the latter than you.

This is not a good way to act. By posting here, feplus is part of the community. The arguments may have been against the majority, but please don't make ostracizing comments like these.

I wouldn't mind if said opinion could be backed up with stuff like numbers (whether by videos or numbers) - but instead I have a bunch of vague nonsense that sounds like someone who WANTS to be part of the discussion, but has no way besides handwaving to support his arguments. FE is a game of numbers - I expect that anyone who wants to claim things should be able to provide the numbers, as well as the explanation for their significance, to whoever asks. T-Bone has, somewhat, which is why I'm happier with his explanation.

[T-Bone]

The enemies don't have gamble, try booting up the chapter yourself to check!

Also since its kind of a narrow pass type map you can sort of build a wall with Fred and 2 or 3 other dudes that can tank a hit (The enemies are only level 3). Despoil only procs on player phase anyways so ideally Vaike can finish off a weak barb and tank a second while your other dudes rotate.

I'll try this out if FEPlus doesn't get back with results.

Edit: Hm I guess you can't use this specific map before chapter 7, maybe I'll look for another one, I know you can SS Vaike at the end of chapter 5 at the least on L+, possibly earlier if you're a better player than I am. I'll see whats unlocked at that point.

Edited February 17, 2015 by T-Bone

[feplus]

You may be a moderator, eclipse, but understand I am not obligated to alter my debate style to satisfy your preferences. You have been rude throughout our exchange and I have been exceedingly patient and cordial despite your feigned incredulity and insults.

If T-Bone's offer to collect data stands, I will happily hand this off to him. No reason to involve myself in senseless drama.

[T-Bone]

Got Vaike to 10 after 3x (I did 4 before 3x). Granted this would be harder on L+ (I'm playing regular lunatic), but 5 is still entirely reasonable and it might be better to wait until 5 so your dudes are a bit more buff. Also gives you the chance to staff abuse Maribelle instead of Lissa if you like her more.

Beat Wolt in one try, Fred+Kellam even at base stats can basically tank all the brigands at once, as could my +Def avatar who was slightly but not super fed (I water glitched but fed a lot of kills to Chrom also, in a real L+ run where you give him all your kills he could solo the map at this point). The dark mages have pretty mag/def/hp but since everyone can double them it doesn't really matter.

Also slight correction some of the brigands did have gamble (2 I believe). This could potentially lead to some restarts but their hit is already pretty low that it shouldn't happen to often. If Avatar tanks with Chrom support he can't even get crit, and full hp Fred+Kellem can tank a crit+2 other axe hits to the face if he has a sword. The map is pretty quick regardless.

I got three bullions, a bunch of support experience and a bunch of experience for Lissa (Staff exp isn't reduced). Three bullions was pretty lucky won't lie about that, but I don't think I spent more than 500g worth of weapons on the map. Chrom can kill everything he needs to with Falchion, and since I didn't use Miriel I can use her fire w/ MU even if I had really bad bullion RNG for a few maps. I fed Vaike at least 6 of the kills, so with 11 luck from Chrom support I should see a bullion every 2 maps on average.

Also something I totally forgot about is that while you don't get much exp for hitting the enemies, you DO get full exp from the event tiles. Also you can get various items you can sell if nothing else.

Tomorrow I'll try to just grind for an hour and see how much of a benefit I get.

[Irysa]

Granted this would be harder on L+ (I'm playing regular lunatic),

Uhhhh that's kinda a big deal dude.

[T-Bone]

Uhhhh that's kinda a big deal dude.

No it's not. The enemies I'm farming are exactly the same on L+ and L. The only thing that would be harder is that it would be harder to get Vaike to 10 by chapter 3x. At the least you can do it by 5, I did it after 3x just to see how early I could avoid doing the main story.

Edited February 18, 2015 by T-Bone

[T-Bone]

Just to finish this up:

You can rig what map the team you want spawns on by repeatedly summoning/dismissing teams until there's only one left. I used the chapter 3 map because of all the handy corridors which meant I could usually trap 6 enemies on one side behind Fred while I killed off the other 4 and usually fed 2 of them to Vaike. Once you've got them in a corridor it's pretty easy to feed them all appropriately though a little time consuming.

Vaike+Chrom A support is 12 luck. Assuming 7 kills if for whatever reason you mess one up or can only get 1 at the beginning. Approximately 59% chance to get a bullion per map, or 600g per map. (I think? It could be higher depending on how math works)

Over the course of 3 maps I used 18 fire charges (270g), 36 bronze sword charges (245g), 21 heal charges (400g), 21 bronze axe charges (160g). 1075 total gold over three maps is around 360 gold per map.

So that leaves you with a net gain of approximately 240g per map.

What else did I get? Remember 3 maps total over the course of about a little over an hour.

A supports between Vaike/Chrom/MU, B supports for Chrom+Fred and Fred/Lissa/MU (Chrom doesn't take hits very often so he didn't get heals).

25 exp for MU, 22 exp for Fred, 7 exp for Chrom, 294 exp for Lissa, 106 exp for Vaike (I was giving him all my event tiles, was probably a bit higher exp than average, but you could give this exp to whatever unit you like).

Broad Axe, Superior Edge, Reeking Box.

30 renown I think? (Didn't really keep track but I think its 10 per map)

No weapon skills. Although you can get them through event tiles enemies stopped giving them. I think it was because I had already cleared the map? I definitely got some skills the first time I cleared it. Maybe killing off Wolt and re-recruiting him would reset that, not sure.

A few other things....

Gamble existed but Fred+Kellam could take a crit+2 axe hits and survive (Which happened twice), and so long as he didn't get crit twice in two rounds I would have him in range of MU for the 10% avoid everytime he needed to tank.

The TLDR is that you could grind infinitely here if you wanted, making gold and (Slowly) levels. Is it worth it? Well probably not, if you're playing a FE game you probably aren't in it to grind anyways, but you can still break a lot of mechanics here. I got the A supports in a total of 6 maps without really trying to min max them (So like 2 hours, or less if I didn't care about giving Vaike kills) and that alone can DRASTICALLY reduce the difficulty of a lot of the early L+ levels where you want to kill X enemies on turn 1. Also Lissa was buff enough towards the end that she wouldn't get doubled by archers or 1 rounded by barbs, which has some obvious campaign applications.

Anyways take from that what you will. I don't really remember what the original argument you guys were having was about, I'm just here to say that you can use DLC to break the game if you try.

[Kaoz]

Thanks for testing that, T-Bone.

Personally I wanted to know how many levels you could get in an hour of grinding. I have to say I'm not particularly impressed by ~200 total combat exp, but if you deem 2 or 3 hours an acceptable investment, I could see this being beneficial overall.