Titania is the best in the game.

[Swordsalmon]

Combat - Nothing can hurt your combat rank. I'd like to see someone with a 1-star combat rank, just because it's a hell of a better accomplishment than 5-stars.

Experience - How? Getting one more experience, and the enemy isn't even hurt. It isn't much, but it's something.

Tactics/BEXP - If you're letting it hinder these, you suck and you aren't doing it right. Plain and simple.

No, I would not. If I can use archers abilities to the best possible, and turn their one weakness into a strategical strength (Which I can do, by the way), that's all I care about it. Let me keep my opinions, and you can keep yours.

Using an Archer will damage Combat, because they can kill one enemy at best per turn and can't defend themselves.

They can't kill nearly as much as other classes, so they're reducing Experience.

Try playing ranked HHM or FE6 HM with an Archer. They are the single biggest hindrance to Tactics/BEXP because an Archer can't defeat multiple enemies.

When it comes down to everything, Archer is the overall worst class. >__<

[Florete]

Using an Archer will damage Combat, because they can kill one enemy at best per turn and can't defend themselves.

They can't kill nearly as much as other classes, so they're reducing Experience.

Try playing ranked HHM or FE6 HM with an Archer. They are the single biggest hindrance to Tactics/BEXP because an Archer can't defeat multiple enemies.

When it comes down to everything, Archer is the overall worst class. >__<

How is that hurting combat?

That would be helping more than hurting, considering that's always the case (which it isn't).

I will. HHM anyway (I'll never bother with FE6 ranks, the archers there suck anyway). With Rebecca. In my past ranked runs, she's consistently been among my most helpful characters. PEMN? I don't care, it still happened.

Your opinion. Think that all you want, I don't care.

[Raven]

How is that hurting combat?

That would be helping more than hurting, considering that's always the case (which it isn't).

I will. HHM anyway (I'll never bother with FE6 ranks, the archers there suck anyway). With Rebecca. In my past ranked runs, she's consistently been among my most helpful characters. PEMN? I don't care, it still happened.

Your opinion. Think that all you want, I don't care.

I agree with this. If it's happened, nothing can prove it's not fact. And with that, good night.

[Tino]

Indeed, it happened for Fox. Hurrah! Now all party.

It's happened to me, too. It's a fact that it happened, and that can't be denied.

On average though, Rebecca does hurt your rankings, no matter how many times you got her to be one of yuor most helpful units.

[Florete]

Indeed, it happened for Fox. Hurrah! Now all party.

It's happened to me, too. It's a fact that it happened, and that can't be denied.

On average though, Rebecca does hurt your rankings, no matter how many times you got her to be one of yuor most helpful units.

I find it funny you think we care about what happens "on average." Thing is, you're just as likely to prove that statement as you are to "prove" that archers suck as a class. Meaning, you can't. Opinions. Understand them.

[CGV]

Using an Archer will damage Combat, because they can kill one enemy at best per turn and can't defend themselves.

They can't kill nearly as much as other classes, so they're reducing Experience.

Try playing ranked HHM or FE6 HM with an Archer. They are the single biggest hindrance to Tactics/BEXP because an Archer can't defeat multiple enemies.

When it comes down to everything, Archer is the overall worst class. >__<

(This post contains 7 too many statements that should be opinions, but are labeled like they're facts which pisses off a lot of people)

[Tino]

I find it funny you think we care about what happens "on average." Thing is, you're just as likely to prove that statement as you are to "prove" that archers suck as a class. Meaning, you can't. Opinions. Understand them.

Debating. Understand it.

(This post contains 7 too many statements that should be opinions, but are labeled like they're facts which pisses off a lot of people)

Let's take a look at all those statement then.

1. They can attack and therefore only kill one enemy once a turn. So they indeed hurt Combat.

2. They can't counter, so they can't defend themselves. True again.

3. They can attack once a turn, so they kill only half the amount of enemies non-archers can kill. Yet again, it's true.

4. They gain less EXP than others because they gain half the EXP others gain. They indeed hurt Experience.

5. They hinder at least two Ranks (explained in 3 and 4). True again.

6. They can't attack twice a turn, so they can kill only one enemy a turn.

7. When you consider all the above, they're indeed the worst.

[Florete]

Debating. Understand it.

I do understand it. I believe you've already seen it. But, just because I know it, doesn't mean I care about it.

[Tino]

I do understand it. I believe you've already seen it. But, just because I know it, doesn't mean I care about it.

I highly doubt it, because you keep saying things about opinions/statements (they're practically the same things) not being able to be proven true. But seriously, that's perfectly possible. If I say Oscar > Rolf, and I give arguments as to why this is true, then I've proven it true.

[Florete]

I highly doubt it, because you keep saying things about opinions/statements (they're practically the same things) not being able to be proven true. But seriously, that's perfectly possible. If I say Oscar > Rolf, and I give arguments as to why this is true, then I've proven it true.

Let's just keep this in the other topic, shall we?

[CGV]

1. They can attack and therefore only kill one enemy once a turn. So they indeed hurt Combat.

2. They can't counter, so they can't defend themselves. True again.

3. They can attack once a turn, so they kill only half the amount of enemies non-archers can kill. Yet again, it's true.

4. They gain less EXP than others because they gain half the EXP others gain. They indeed hurt Experience.

5. They hinder at least two Ranks (explained in 3 and 4). True again.

6. They can't attack twice a turn, so they can kill only one enemy a turn.

7. When you consider all the above, they're indeed the worst.

1. Archers CAN attack on enemy phases...

2. That's new to me. I never knew archers didn't have the ability to counter at all, and not even against enemy archers or mages?

3. Every unit can attack once per turn on the player phase and then some of the enemy phase. A good amount time, there's at least one enemy with a ranged weapon in range. I mean, not every unit will be attacking an enemy unit on the enemy phase

4. You're kidding me, right? So if an archer at level 1 kills and enemy mage and gets (just and example) 50 exp and a cavalier kills a mage equal to the one the archer killed, he'll grow a level? Are you literally saying that archers get half the exp than every other unit type would? Or are you just going with the "they can't counter on the enemy phase" thing again...

5. Read numbers 3 and 4... (this is going nowhere fast...)

6. I hope you mean enemy phase. If you do, read number 2

7. I think you're looking at them from the worst possible view and I see them at the best possible view, so I wont consider yours and i can guarentee you wont consider mine

Edited September 23, 2008 by CGV

[Tino]

1. Archers CAN attack on enemy phases...

2. That's new to me. I never knew archers didn't have the ability to counter at all, and not even against enemy archers or mages?

3. Every unit can attack once per turn on the player phase and then some of the enemy phase. A good amount time, there's at least one enemy with a ranged weapon in range. I mean, not every unit will be attacking an enemy unit on the enemy phase

4. You're kidding me, right? So if an archer at level 1 kills and enemy mage and gets (just and example) 50 exp and a cavalier kills a mage equal to the one the archer killed, he'll grow a level? Are you literally saying that archers get half the exp than every other unit type would? Or are you just going with the "they can't counter on the enemy phase" thing again...

5. Read numbers 3 and 4... (this is going nowhere fast...)

6. I hope you mean enemy phase. If you do, read number 2

7. I think you're looking at them from the worst possible view and I see them at the best possible view, so I wont consider yours and i can guarentee you wont consider mine

1. They can't. They can't counter anything that attacks them (enemy archers/mages aren't stupid enough to attack one who counters when there are enough characters who can't counter them(.

2. See #1.

3. Indeed, but at least non-archers can attack on the enemy phase while archer can't.

4. No, I'm saying they get only half the EXP because they can attack only half the time.

6. They can kill on player phase, not on enemy phase.

I want you guys to do something for me. Don't counter what I said right now, but convince me that archers are actually useful with your own arguments. And no things such as personal experience and playing styles, because they mean nothing.

[Florete]

1. They can't. They can't counter anything that attacks them (enemy archers/mages aren't stupid enough to attack one who counters when there are enough characters who can't counter them(.

2. See #1.

3. Indeed, but at least non-archers can attack on the enemy phase while archer can't.

4. No, I'm saying they get only half the EXP because they can attack only half the time.

6. They can kill on player phase, not on enemy phase.

I want you guys to do something for me. Don't counter what I said right now, but convince me that archers are actually useful with your own arguments. And no things such as personal experience and playing styles, because they mean nothing.

1. You want us to make a video of an archer countering on the enemy phase? Just because it isn't as likely to happen doesn't mean it can't.

4. That still isn't hurting experience in any way.

6. Yes. They. Can.

Saying playing styles means nothing is bullshit. If that's true, I'd have to stop playing the game and only "play" the game by looking up everything about it on the internet, and so would everyone else.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Fox

[Phoenix Wright]

Before I get into this, why do personal things not count? When was the last time someone told you they got all of their characters to their average stats? Those mean nothing, they are just something to look at to see if your character is balanced or not in my opinion.

Okay, now:

1. Archers can attack on (of course the player phase) and if the right enemy, the enemy phase.

2. What about half experience? How is that true at all? Who an archer attacks will gain just as much as anyone else in that game.

Alright Tino, how are archers helpful?

1.They provide support, just like a healer. Are those not helpful too?

2. Most are strong, even Rebecca. (She maxes STR)

3. EXP again. It won't hurt your rank it just means that that archer didn't gain those EXP points, someone else did.

4.AVD. If you have avoid like Rebecca, or DEF like Wil, how can that hurt your team?

5. I'll agree its probably a bad class, but its still a great one to use! The worst class is Assassin, and everyone still uses those.

[Swordsalmon]

Before I get into this, why do personal things not count? When was the last time someone told you they got all of their characters to their average stats? Those mean nothing, they are just something to look at to see if your character is balanced or not in my opinion.

Okay, now:

1. Archers can attack on (of course the player phase) and if the right enemy, the enemy phase.

2. What about half experience? How is that true at all? Who an archer attacks will gain just as much as anyone else in that game.

Alright Tino, how are archers helpful?

1.They provide support, just like a healer. Are those not helpful too?

2. Most are strong, even Rebecca. (She maxes STR)

3. EXP again. It won't hurt your rank it just means that that archer didn't gain those EXP points, someone else did.

4.AVD. If you have avoid like Rebecca, or DEF like Wil, how can that hurt your team?

5. I'll agree its probably a bad class, but its still a great one to use! The worst class is Assassin, and everyone still uses those.

Because debating relies on facts, not opinions.

1. Melee enemies target Archers first. Indirects will attack different characters. Archers as such, won't be able to counter.

2. They battle one enemy a turn. All other non-healers can battle multiple enemies a turn.

Now, to prove you wrong.

1. Don't even compare them. Healers give a near-essential benefit of recovering injured characters. They keep everyone alive to destroy more. Archers are just a sub-par fighting class.

2. Show me the averages. Besides, even with capped Strength, an Archer is still killing less than everyone.

3. There isn't enough time to weaken enemies to boost Experience. You need them killed quickly. That increases both ranks. Archers hinder in both categories.

4. Because Wil's Speed is atrocious and Avoid isn't always reliable.

5. Assassins at least have Swords, Lockpicks, and FOW clearing.

[Phoenix Wright]

Because debating relies on facts, not opinions.

1. Melee enemies target Archers first. Indirects will attack different characters. Archers as such, won't be able to counter.

2. They battle one enemy a turn. All other non-healers can battle multiple enemies a turn.

Now, to prove you wrong.

1. Don't even compare them. Healers give a near-essential benefit of recovering injured characters. They keep everyone alive to destroy more. Archers are just a sub-par fighting class.

2. Show me the averages. Besides, even with capped Strength, an Archer is still killing less than everyone.

3. There isn't enough time to weaken enemies to boost Experience. You need them killed quickly. That increases both ranks. Archers hinder in both categories.

4. Because Wil's Speed is atrocious and Avoid isn't always reliable.

5. Assassins at least have Swords, Lockpicks, and FOW clearing.

Gotcha.

About your first #2. What if they are surrounded by other archers? Then they attack more don't they?

2. She doesn't cap, but she does for me every time. I know, personal opinion.

3.Seriously? Everyone can't kill every enemy in one or two hits, its not just the archers that weaken enemies. Especially in the beginning of the game.

4.True. True, but she also has awesome speed and luck, but mediocre DEF.

5. But their caps are HORRIBLE. If you're using an Iron Sword, whats the chance of pulling the skill off?

[Swordsalmon]

Gotcha.

About your first #2. What if they are surrounded by other archers? Then they attack more don't they?

2. She doesn't cap, but she does for me every time. I know, personal opinion.

3.Seriously? Everyone can't kill every enemy in one or two hits, its not just the archers that weaken enemies. Especially in the beginning of the game.

4.True. True, but she also has awesome speed and luck, but mediocre DEF.

5. But their caps are HORRIBLE. If you're using an Iron Sword, whats the chance of pulling the skill off?

How many groups of Archers do you see? :o

The Archer is often the weakest member of the group-three-rounding while everyone two-rounds.

Caps mean little. Besides, they have special utility shared only with Theives.

[Phoenix Wright]

How many groups of Archers do you see? :o

The Archer is often the weakest member of the group-three-rounding while everyone two-rounds.

Caps mean little. Besides, they have special utility shared only with Theives.

Well...not very many, just making a point

You won this time SS!

Caps mean liitle? Fine thieves on average have a strength of 12! Come on, I hate that thieves are only used for utility, they NEED a babysitter. Mediocre DEF, RES, and good SPD? That isn't enough.

[Reikken]

This topic seems to have veered way off-course. What happened? (I'm not reading 19 pages...)

Assuming you're talking about a ranking run, you don't use an iron sword with an assassin. You use a killing edge so you can get that doubled exp from pulling of silencer on top of that already increased exp due to the class exp bonus.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Reikken

[CGV]

This topic seems to have veered way off-course. What happened? (I'm not reading 19 pages...)

Assuming you're talking about a ranking run, you don't use an iron sword with an assassin. You use a killing edge so you can get that doubled exp from pulling of silencer on top of that already increased exp due to the class exp bonus.

It's mainly about Rolf...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure the "debating rules" say it's ok to use a killing edge to boost your critical chance. I think they go off of brute strength, not incredibly high critical luck with assassins and killing edge's

Edited September 24, 2008 by CGV

[Florete]

It's mainly about Rolf...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure the "debating rules" say it's ok to use a killing edge to boost your critical chance. I think they go off of brute strength, not incredibly high critical luck with assassins and killing edge's

The classes critical bonus is considered, so since they have a naturally better crit chance, you occasionally can say that.

[sandmanccl]

How many groups of Archers do you see? :o

The Archer is often the weakest member of the group-three-rounding while everyone two-rounds.

Caps mean little. Besides, they have special utility shared only with Theives.

I use archers to back up my slow units, and I usually have quite a few of those because defense and speed are very rarely both extremely good on the same unit. I value defense as the most important stat for how I play (I don't allow luck to ever be a factor.) Enemy comes to attack Brom, Brom hits them once and gets them near death, Rolf finishes them off next turn, Brom moves forward to kite the next bunch of enemies down to where I can milk them off. It works quite well, and Longbows (which while uncommon in previous FE titles, are quite common in both Radiant titles as you can buy them for relatively cheap due to the overabundance of cash you get) help extremely in tight quarters because 3 people being able to attack a bottleneck area is better than two guys being able to attack a bottleneck area.

Besides, I dropped Rolf at the chapter you recruit Shinon in because I just didn't have room for him in my party this run. Already got Astrid to bow people, so I didn't see much use in using a second main archer unit.

[Florete]

It's just a shame that Astrid can't use a longbow. A horse and canto means she pretty much has no need for it, but it would still be nice...

[Reikken]

It's mainly about Rolf...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure the "debating rules" say it's ok to use a killing edge to boost your critical chance. I think they go off of brute strength, not incredibly high critical luck with assassins and killing edge's

Whatever these arbitrary rules are, I can't say that I care. I'm talking about ranking runs, not...whatever that is.

Rolf? Yeah, he sucks. He joins extremely weak and never becomes good, so he sucks overall. Note that I mean relative to other player characters.

The classes critical bonus is considered, so since they have a naturally better crit chance, you occasionally can say that.

eh, wot? Assassins don't get a class crit boost.

[Florete]

eh, wot? Assassins don't get a class crit boost.

Are you sure? I thought for sure they did. *checks* Oh, I'm thinking Radiant Dawn. Never mind.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Fox