Best Trueblade?

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Zihark has better end stats and affinity, but it doesn't mean at all that Mia is bad.

She's weaker physically, but a better magic weapon user.

I prefer FE9 vantage over adept, because it can give you a free kill with a crit.

Actually I think no single unit in this game is really bad, which is one of the huge pluses of this game.

A few units like Bastian or Lucia are outclassed, but they're not useless.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Mister IceTeaPeach

[Augestein]

Zihark has better end stats and affinity, but it doesn't mean at all that Mia is bad.

She's weaker physically, but a better magic weapon user.

I prefer FE9 vantage over adept, because it can give you a free kill with a crit.

Actually I think no single unit in this game is really bad, which is one of the huge pluses of this game.

A few units like Bastian or Lucia are outclassed, but they're not useless.

He has better starting stats as well. His stats are pretty much her stats or higher sans res. Mia having 2 points of magic higher than Zihark doesn't make her noticeably better than Zihark with magical weapons. Even with supports, she's only getting about 3 attack more with them. 5 magic sounds like a lot until you realize that this would be supported Mia versus Unsupported Zihark.

But adept has a higher chance of leading to an enemy's death than a critical from Mia.

She's certainly not unusable. Bastian would have been a lot better if they gave him staves rather than knives, because knives were just awful for mages. Lower might weapons that a lower strength class uses just sounds disastrous. Lucia has... An interestingly high base magic. So that's always nice.

I don't agree with that either.

I'm curious then, what chapters would you say she's a good unit to deploy?

Edited October 18, 2015 by Augestein

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Zihark has better starting starts, because he's four levels higher than Mia when she joins.

When she reaches Zihark's level she's in total the same.

He has slightly strength and skill, though.

[Snowy_One]

No. Mia is pretty terrible in PoR. Zihark isn't great either, but the strength leads he has is far better than anything Mia has over him-- because she has to get like 4 levels to be on part with him.

And? She's also around for several more chapters than him. Also... STR lead? Mia's Rhys support will be kicking in very soon after Zihark joins and said supports will ensure her an attack lead come endgame. +4 attack is nothing to scoff at at all.

Mia starts out lame in her first and then Zihark comes along and has like the same exact stats that Mia does. Even if you argue with support bonuses, Zihark's makes him crush her because Earth affinity is just silly.

Zihark's main supporter isn't even around till chapter 16. It will be about 19 before he actually gets anything out of that. Sure, Ilyana will get him something, but Ilyana also gives Mia stuff and vantage occasionally critting or finishing off weakened foes will trump the +5 evade Zihark will get until he B's her. Especially if Mia gets her hands on a killing edge.

Also, Adept is a better skill than Vantage.

PHAHAHA! No. Adept only helps out when 3HKOing or 2HKOing on the first strike of the player phase. Otherwise having it activate is pretty much useless. Vantage allows for foes to be killed before striking on the EP and can be comboed with Wrath, adept, and guard to drastically reduce the incoming damage, nevermind KE's/VK. Vantage chews up adept and spits it out.

I don't think it's that people ignore it, they just notice that Zihark's advantages in PoR are far greater than Mia's.

Any advantage Zihark has in PoR is negligable or minor, especially when you consider things like how Mia is one of three people who can viably use the SS (Tanith and Mist being the other two) and vantage is far more potent than in RD. The only real edge he has on her is avoid... which he has to wait till Muarim to use and Muarim is pretty meh on the whole.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Snowy_One

[Shadow Mir]

PHAHAHA! No. Adept only helps out when 3HKOing or 2HKOing on the first strike of the player phase. Otherwise having it activate is pretty much useless. Vantage allows for foes to be killed before striking on the EP and can be comboed with Wrath, adept, and guard to drastically reduce the incoming damage, nevermind KE's/VK. Vantage chews up adept and spits it out.

I don't think it's that people ignore it, they just notice that Zihark's advantages in PoR are far greater than Mia's.

Any advantage Zihark has in PoR is negligable or minor, especially when you consider things like how Mia is one of three people who can viably use the SS (Tanith and Mist being the other two) and vantage is far more potent than in RD. The only real edge he has on her is avoid... which he has to wait till Muarim to use and Muarim is pretty meh on the whole.

As I see it, Vantage only really makes a difference when the enemy's weak enough that the user can kill them before they get a chance to attack. You also get only two killing edges in the game.

WRT the SS comment: I'm not really seeing much difference before you get to 20/10 or so.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Augestein]

And? She's also around for several more chapters than him. Also... STR lead? Mia's Rhys support will be kicking in very soon after Zihark joins and said supports will ensure her an attack lead come endgame. +4 attack is nothing to scoff at at all.

She's there for chapter 7, where's she's on the wrong side of the map to really get a good start, fortunately she joins on her own, so she can start fighting immediately when she joins and she literally chases after Ike. Chapter 7 she can help a little bit, but most of the enemies are lance users, or in heavy armor here, so she'll have pretty slim pickings here. Really the same problems as Ike, but Ike can use the Oscar support to help with WTD, and will probably be higher in level and as a result, have a little bit of strength and defense for what it's worth. Usually I have Ike level once per chapter, so that'd put him at level 9 going into chapter 8. Being in more chapters in this case doesn't really help, because she isn't going to be reasonably gaining enough levels to actually have any real advantages over him. Even by end game, with the support bonuses of +4 attack, Zihark has a concrete durability lead, and any time an adept procs, he'll do more damage than Mia. That is more useful than Mia.

Zihark's main supporter isn't even around till chapter 16. It will be about 19 before he actually gets anything out of that. Sure, Ilyana will get him something, but Ilyana also gives Mia stuff and vantage occasionally critting or finishing off weakened foes will trump the +5 evade Zihark will get until he B's her. Especially if Mia gets her hands on a killing edge.

And yet you still have Brom or Ilyana to choose. Both of which give him more durability. Brom gives Zihark attack and defense while Ilyana gives both Mia and Zihark defense and for the most part, overkill accuracy. Adept is still being more useful than Vantage, and while the evasion isn't super special, nor is that attack. Unless +1 atk is something so incredible that you'll write off adept and the evasion bonuses. If this game had more mage enemies, I'd say Mia was better, but it doesn't. And relying on Killing Edge criticals is incredibly shaky. Like... Almost as shaky as relying off of Zihark's adept procs to kill enemies.

PHAHAHA! No. Adept only helps out when 3HKOing or 2HKOing on the first strike of the player phase. Otherwise having it activate is pretty much useless. Vantage allows for foes to be killed before striking on the EP and can be comboed with Wrath, adept, and guard to drastically reduce the incoming damage, nevermind KE's/VK. Vantage chews up adept and spits it out.

Adept can activate on the enemy phase, which could kill enemies that would still be alive on the player phrase, and clear the way for even more offense. Vantage can be combined with Wrath, yes, but Vantage / Wrath isn't something exclusive to Mia. You get the scrolls for both. By the time Mia can use it, anyone could use it, and I'd argue more people could use it better on the account of having higher durability and weapons with 1-2 range with easier access. Imagine someone like Boyd having Vantage / Wrath with a hand axe. Vantage ONLY works on enemy phase and ONLY has a point when you kill the enemy before it strikes you. Adept... Always has a point unless you're attack an archer and you proc adept when you were doubling it anyways and you 2HKO it anyways. Even... Zihark could theoretically have it by the time Mia has it. And with more evasion, in the events that it didn't critical and kill the enemy, you'd have the added health insurance of Zihark's evasion from supports.

Any advantage Zihark has in PoR is negligable or minor, especially when you consider things like how Mia is one of three people who can viably use the SS (Tanith and Mist being the other two) and vantage is far more potent than in RD. The only real edge he has on her is avoid... which he has to wait till Muarim to use and Muarim is pretty meh on the whole.

Not really. 7 magic + 4 atk isn't exactly anything to get excited about. Especially when someone like Stefan comes right out of the box with higher magic than Mia, higher durability than Mia, and can get bonuses from Soren for extra magic attack. Stefan would have more magic attack power than Mia for most of the game, if now all of it by virtue that Mia needs to be promoted before she really start's squeaking out an advantage attack wise from it. There's also Lucia that can use it as well, Astrid if you gave her swords might be able to pull it off too. Marcia's magic is almost the same as Mia's, and 2 points of attack is not "one unit can't use it and the other can." That said, this is an advantage for Mia, but THIS might be the most negligible advantage the both of them have. I honestly wish PoR just had more mage enemies, because if it did, Mia would definitely have a significant advantage at moments. Zihark's res is terrible.

The only edges Zihark has on her is his skill being more versatile , having like the same stats as her when she reaches the chapter he joins, and then concrete durability -- he takes less damage from most attacks, he is also less likely to be hit by attacks as well. It's not really even here.

[Snowy_One]

As I see it, Vantage only really makes a difference when the enemy's weak enough that the user can kill them before they get a chance to attack. You also get only two killing edges in the game.

​And when Mia crits on that first strike. Remember, as a SM she gets boosted critical. Giving her wrath gives it a noticeable boost as well. Anyways, so? Adept only matters to Zihark on that first attack on the player-phase as well unless you're attacking a 3HKO strike in the hopes of either adept or a crit, so I don't see why Zihark's adept should be praised and Mia's vantage ignored. Especially since vantage is the best skill to combine with adept (but adept not the best for vantage).

She's there for chapter 7, where's she's on the wrong side of the map to really get a good start, fortunately she joins on her own, so she can start fighting immediately when she joins and she literally chases after Ike. Chapter 7 she can help a little bit, but most of the enemies are lance users, or in heavy armor here, so she'll have pretty slim pickings here. Really the same problems as Ike, but Ike can use the Oscar support to help with WTD, and will probably be higher in level and as a result, have a little bit of strength and defense for what it's worth. Usually I have Ike level once per chapter, so that'd put him at level 9 going into chapter 8. Being in more chapters in this case doesn't really help, because she isn't going to be reasonably gaining enough levels to actually have any real advantages over him. Even by end game, with the support bonuses of +4 attack, Zihark has a concrete durability lead, and any time an adept procs, he'll do more damage than Mia. That is more useful than Mia.

'Wrong side of the map' means 'almost right by where the party starts'. Yea... Nice try. Not to mention that there are things like armor slayers IIRC. Regardless... why is she being penalized for joining earlier and being able to help out when Zihark's contributions are an outright 0? Even if it's a mere 1, 1 >>>>>>>>> 0. Lastly his durability 'lead' requires him to stay close to Muarim. You want to talk about suck? Muarim either needs the demi-band or struggles with the laguz gauge which means he's untransformed half the time. His UNCHANGEABLE claw has a measly 9 attack, on par with an iron blade or steel bow. If he's demied his transform bonus is knocked down to a measly +4 meaning a 20/20 Muarim ends up with 36-37 attack or 0 attack half the time and 40 attack otherwise. By simply wielding a silver blade a 20/10 Mia CAN TIE endgame Muarim's ATT if he's demied and she can further tap into forged and specialized weapons. Nevermind if she hits 20/20. At least Rhys can heal and attack RES from ranged and is an anti-magic tank.

And yet you still have Brom or Ilyana to choose. Both of which give him more durability. Brom gives Zihark attack and defense while Ilyana gives both Mia and Zihark defense and for the most part, overkill accuracy.

Brom is also a general, has no use for the extra AVO, and +1 attack is only going to make him tie with endgame Mia, not surpass her. Not to mention that an A Brom still takes much longer than Mia's +ATT support (and Mia's Ilyana support finishes faster as well). So, yea, no dice.

Adept is still being more useful than Vantage,

In the same sense that a pistol is more useful than a SMG. Namely, it isn't. Adept only has one window of opportunity (the first strike of the player phase) to make a difference. Even then it maxes out at 29%. That's nothing to the 28% crit chance Mia gets EVERY EP attack to kill the foe before it can strike her. Sure, Zihark can take Vantage, but then Mia can take adept for the same effect, guard for a similar effect (in that it negates an enemy attack), or wrath to jump it up to a 78% chance, 100% chance with a KE or VK. That's also ignoring that pretty much everyone will want vantage because it goes good with almost everything while Mia has options. Yea. Mia's vantage trounces adept into the ground and spits it out.

and while the evasion isn't super special, nor is that attack. Unless +1 atk is something so incredible that you'll write off adept and the evasion bonuses. If this game had more mage enemies, I'd say Mia was better, but it doesn't. And relying on Killing Edge criticals is incredibly shaky. Like... Almost as shaky as relying off of Zihark's adept procs to kill enemies.

Zihark's adept maxes out at 29%, before any skill gets factored in a KE has 30% and the VK 35%. With the SM crit bonus that becomes a 50/55%. With skill factored in that grows even more. Crit-kills destroy adept kills in every way feasible.

Adept can activate on the enemy phase, which could kill enemies that would still be alive on the player phrase, and clear the way for even more offense. Vantage can be combined with Wrath, yes, but Vantage / Wrath isn't something exclusive to Mia.You get the scrolls for both. By the time Mia can use it, anyone could use it, and I'd argue more people could use it better on the account of having higher durability and weapons with 1-2 range with easier access.

The same can be said with vantage as Nephenee has an innate wrath AND 1-2 range as does Soren (though why you'd dangle him out there is suspect). But here's the thing. Zihark getting vantage/wrath requires him to use TWO scrolls. It only requires Mia ONE as the key skill (vantage) is already hers.

Imagine someone like Boyd having Vantage / Wrath with a hand axe. Vantage ONLY works on enemy phase and ONLY has a point when you kill the enemy before it strikes you.

Then let him have it. Mia still has adept and guard to work with. Zihark has diddly.

Adept... Always has a point unless you're attack an archer and you proc adept when you were doubling it anyways and you 2HKO it anyways. Even... Zihark could theoretically have it by the time Mia has it. And with more evasion, in the events that it didn't critical and kill the enemy, you'd have the added health insurance of Zihark's evasion from supports.

Dead enemies deal no damage. A 50% chance to kill may as well be an additional 50% avoid so long as they strike first. Zihark does not without vantage.

Not really. 7 magic + 4 atk isn't exactly anything to get excited about. Especially when someone like Stefan comes right out of the box with higher magic than Mia, higher durability than Mia, and can get bonuses from Soren for extra magic attack.

LMAO. No.

Mia has a maximum potential magic of 23-24 (12 base + 4 support + 4 dust + 3-4 mage band).

Zihark has a maximum magic potential of 15 (7 base + 4 dust + 3 band + 1 support).

Stefan has a maximum magic potential of 16 (10 base + 4 dust + 1 band + 1 support)

Even if we were to rewind back to when Mia is 20/1 Mia has 14 (6 + 1 band + 4 dust + 3 support) to Stefan's... 12. (8 base + 4 dust). Want to argue that the dusts/band is too valuable? Even if Mia got nothing she'd still clock in at 16 and, remember, she's attacking RES. The SS has 10 MT for a total of 26 ATT, 33-34 if she's maxed. An endgame paladin has ~40 HP and ~7 RES meaning Mia would deal 54 damage, enough to kill. Base-level clocks in at 38... except the RS is now available for use and has 15 MT meaning base Mia has 31 MT with it. Base Zihark has 24.

There is no contest. In the realm of magic sword use Mia destroys the other swordmasters (I didn't forget about Lucia. She has the highest base magic, but also only gets +1 from the band at most and no + ATT supports). Since this means Mia is the only SM who can reliably counter at ranged, even if it is only for as long as the SS/RS holds out, it's a HUGE advantage in her favor.

Mia has the better skill since it can be comboed and trounces Zihark's adept regardless.

Mia has the earlier join time.

Mia has better support partners (Muarim sucks later on and Rhys at least offers something)

Mia can use the magic swords viably.

How is Zihark better? He's not.

[Shadow Mir]

​And when Mia crits on that first strike. Remember, as a SM she gets boosted critical. Giving her wrath gives it a noticeable boost as well. Anyways, so? Adept only matters to Zihark on that first attack on the player-phase as well unless you're attacking a 3HKO strike in the hopes of either adept or a crit, so I don't see why Zihark's adept should be praised and Mia's vantage ignored. Especially since vantage is the best skill to combine with adept (but adept not the best for vantage).

Which only means much of anything if that enemy's weak enough that she can kill it with a critical, which won't happen on more durable enemies. And I love how you outright ignored the fact that you get only two killing edges and one VK, and none of them have that many uses.

LMAO. No.

Mia has a maximum potential magic of 23-24 (12 base + 4 support + 4 dust + 3-4 mage band).

Zihark has a maximum magic potential of 15 (7 base + 4 dust + 3 band + 1 support).

Stefan has a maximum magic potential of 16 (10 base + 4 dust + 1 band + 1 support)

Why are we using 20/20 stats again??? You oughta know full well they don't tell the whole story by now.. Also, another issue I have is that you're assuming that Mia gets the Ilyana support when it doesn't do either of them any real good - all they get out of it is overkill hit for the most part.

Zihark's adept maxes out at 29%, before any skill gets factored in a KE has 30% and the VK 35%. With the SM crit bonus that becomes a 50/55%. With skill factored in that grows even more. Crit-kills destroy adept kills in every way feasible.

.

I dunno about you but 50/55% crit ain't exactly something to be proud of - it's barely any more reliable than a coinflip. And that's wrong anyway, since the Swordmaster crit bonus is 15, not 20.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Augestein]

​And when Mia crits on that first strike. Remember, as a SM she gets boosted critical. Giving her wrath gives it a noticeable boost as well. Anyways, so? Adept only matters to Zihark on that first attack on the player-phase as well unless you're attacking a 3HKO strike in the hopes of either adept or a crit, so I don't see why Zihark's adept should be praised and Mia's vantage ignored. Especially since vantage is the best skill to combine with adept (but adept not the best for vantage).

15% + 50%. 65%. That's dangerous. It's completely dangerous to have a unit that's not known for durability being at half health with most of their weapons being 1 range. And no, that's not true at all. Any time Adept activates it's useful in the event that you wouldn't have killed the enemy. It's also useful if it procs on a player phase when you are attacking an enemy and can 2HKO it. It's useful on both enemy and player phase, because if you needed to 3HKO or 4HKO, there's a chance that it'll happen. Also, with adept activates, it gives him a better chance of getting a critical on attacks overall because he's more likely to land a critical more often because he's getting more attacks in. There's also the fact that it's just plain more useful on bosses than vantage. It's not ignoring Mia's Vantage. It's taking note of when both skills are useful, and in the case of Adept, there are more scenarios were it produces a desirable effect than Vantage. Vantage produce a desirable result in one scenario and one scenario alone. Enemy phase, and when there were enemies that were still alive, AND the unit has enough attack to kill it. Your only talking about "avoiding damage" for adept being useful, which is entirely not true about Adept at all.

'Wrong side of the map' means 'almost right by where the party starts'. Yea... Nice try. Not to mention that there are things like armor slayers IIRC. Regardless... why is she being penalized for joining earlier and being able to help out when Zihark's contributions are an outright 0? Even if it's a mere 1, 1 >>>>>>>>> 0. Lastly his durability 'lead' requires him to stay close to Muarim. You want to talk about suck? Muarim either needs the demi-band or struggles with the laguz gauge which means he's untransformed half the time. His UNCHANGEABLE claw has a measly 9 attack, on par with an iron blade or steel bow. If he's demied his transform bonus is knocked down to a measly +4 meaning a 20/20 Muarim ends up with 36-37 attack or 0 attack half the time and 40 attack otherwise. By simply wielding a silver blade a 20/10 Mia CAN TIE endgame Muarim's ATT if he's demied and she can further tap into forged and specialized weapons. Nevermind if she hits 20/20. At least Rhys can heal and attack RES from ranged and is an anti-magic tank.

Normally I run left immediately at the start of the fight, and then swoop up, and then kill the boss. The treasure is not really nice there either. She's not penalized for joining earlier, but there's the thing. Joining earlier isn't necessarily some good thing either. It's just that-- joining earlier. Joining earlier is only useful if your character is good enough to gain level advantages over subsequent joining characters and continue to hold your own with other advantages as well. See someone like say Florina versus Fiora, both are fine units, and both have comparable stats, but if you used Florina, she'd definitely be higher than Fiora's joining level by Chapter 18/19. Also Florina would have supports helping her to squeak at even further ahead. In Mia's case, Mia joins a little underleveled (not terribly), and doesn't have particularly good stats to go along with her level. They aren't bad, but there aren't outstanding, and the people that have inferior stats than her either 1) Heal 2) Have 1-2 range 3) Are Rolf and are objectively worse than her. Muarim is more likely to hit 20 than any Beorc unit in the game. He has a great mid game, and still crushes a lot of people in durability towards the end. The fact that you're saying that Muarim kinda sucks with his attack and a 20/10 Mia can rival it... Shows how mediocre Mia is. Not Muarim. Muarim has durability over her, and dominated the mid game. Mia... Never dominated anywhere. Mia will never hit 20/20 without abuse, and if she hit 20/20. 20/8 is a much more realistic level. All these things you're saying? Are the reason that I said Mia is "still usable, but not better than a lot of people."

Brom is also a general, has no use for the extra AVO, and +1 attack is only going to make him tie with endgame Mia, not surpass her. Not to mention that an A Brom still takes much longer than Mia's +ATT support (and Mia's Ilyana support finishes faster as well). So, yea, no dice.

But he DOES have a use for the water affinity that he brings to the table for himself. He can't get that without a support, and regardless, his support options are pretty lousy. I'll grant that he'd prefer Boyd, but that doesn't change the fact that Zihark is the next best support for him. At B. Nephenee is even worse. Not only is it slower, but it's even more redundant than Zihark could ever hope to be. And regardless of that, Ilyana would much rather support with Zihark over Mia anyways. Getting more evasion for a mage is much more useful than a little bit of attack. Avoid cannot be duplicated. Atk can be replaced by forges. As a matter of fact, if we're going to be straight up honest on supports, Ilyana wants nothing to do with Mia. Mordecai and Zihark are her best supports.

In the same sense that a pistol is more useful than a SMG. Namely, it isn't. Adept only has one window of opportunity (the first strike of the player phase) to make a difference. Even then it maxes out at 29%. That's nothing to the 28% crit chance Mia gets EVERY EP attack to kill the foe before it can strike her. Sure, Zihark can take Vantage, but then Mia can take adept for the same effect, guard for a similar effect (in that it negates an enemy attack), or wrath to jump it up to a 78% chance, 100% chance with a KE or VK. That's also ignoring that pretty much everyone will want vantage because it goes good with almost everything while Mia has options. Yea. Mia's vantage trounces adept into the ground and spits it out.

Pistols make for less bloody kills and can be concealed easier than a SMG. They are also more silent when suppressed. If you're planning on killing someone and trying to get away with it, a pistol is probably a better option. Pistols also require less training than SMGs to use. And in a bind, you can use them with one hand. You never know, your hand might get injured and you need to fire it. It's easier to fire a pistol with 1 hand than a SMG. They are also lighter for what it's worth. Assault Rifles versus the SMG would be a much better comparison. Anyways, Adept has windows of opportunity on defense. I already stated why. 28% chance every EP to try to kill a foe before it can strike her is... Definitely worse. Because there's a 72% chance that she won't and eat it to the face instead. Yeah, and if Mia takes Adept it still doesn't give her evade for if both fail. Not almost everyone wants vantage. That's wrong. People that are heavy hitters that are kind of frail want it. A person like Largo is the type that wants it-- unfortunately for him, he joins very late so someone like say-- Boyd is probably the best choice for it if you're not putting it on a pally or Jill. No, Vantage does not does not trounce it. Vantage has better defensive merit than Adept, but Vantage requires a specific situation to work. Adept does not.

Zihark's adept maxes out at 29%, before any skill gets factored in a KE has 30% and the VK 35%. With the SM crit bonus that becomes a 50/55%. With skill factored in that grows even more. Crit-kills destroy adept kills in every way feasible.

Fortunately, in Zihark land, Zihark can be nice and allow other people on the team to have KE, and they are happier for the extra random spurts of EXP they might get on enemies. Sounds like an advantage for team Zihark. It also makes Zihark more valuable to have around overall sense I don't have to waste time insuring that he has all of this wonderful gifts to perform ... Like the rest of my team.

The same can be said with vantage as Nephenee has an innate wrath AND 1-2 range as does Soren (though why you'd dangle him out there is suspect). But here's the thing. Zihark getting vantage/wrath requires him to use TWO scrolls. It only requires Mia ONE as the key skill (vantage) is already hers.

So what's your point? Anyone can still do it. And considering how you're willing to forsake other units by shoving unique/rare weapons, forged blades, supports that people wouldn't even want, stat boosters in both the bands and the boosting items, AND EXP to make her reach level 20/20, I'd say giving Zihark 2 skills in a hypothetical situation where I'd even want to abandon Adept is completely fair, and still doesn't make him look worse than Mia.

Then let him have it. Mia still has adept and guard to work with. Zihark has diddly.

Why? If you gave Zihark Vantage, why would he suddenly not have it? That makes no sense.

Dead enemies deal no damage. A 50% chance to kill may as well be an additional 50% avoid so long as they strike first. Zihark does not without vantage.

And alive ones do deal damage. So this doesn't mean anything.

LMAO. No.

Mia has a maximum potential magic of 23-24 (12 base + 4 support + 4 dust + 3-4 mage band).

Zihark has a maximum magic potential of 15 (7 base + 4 dust + 3 band + 1 support).

Stefan has a maximum magic potential of 16 (10 base + 4 dust + 1 band + 1 support)

I'd much rather shove Arms Scrolls on Mist or just use Tanith than waste my time giving Mia a band to raise her magic a few points, and then give her an item that's not even used for her primary form of attack. Seriously, even Soren would have a better use of Energy Drops than Mia has for Spirit Dust, at least the +2 strength would let him wield Elwind without AS loss. And after promotion, he'd be able to possibly use Elfire without AS loss. You have to be joking thinking that this even makes even a modicum of sense to do. Regardless, Stefan right off the bat when he joins makes much better use of that magical sword than Mia does. Saving things only for Mia to use them makes it out that Mia is worse. Why are we only allowing Mia things? Imagine if you will we play RD. Should we say Zihark is better if I let him kill every Laguz in 3-6 with Paragon equipped, and then transfer him over the the GMs with Resolve on and compare Resolve Zihark versus Mia? No. That's ridiculous and in no way proves that Zihark is better than Mia in RD. All that proves is that with effort, the unit can be worth using.

Even if we were to rewind back to when Mia is 20/1 Mia has 14 (6 + 1 band + 4 dust + 3 support) to Stefan's... 12. (8 base + 4 dust). Want to argue that the dusts/band is too valuable? Even if Mia got nothing she'd still clock in at 16 and, remember, she's attacking RES. The SS has 10 MT for a total of 26 ATT, 33-34 if she's maxed. An endgame paladin has ~40 HP and ~7 RES meaning Mia would deal 54 damage, enough to kill. Base-level clocks in at 38... except the RS is now available for use and has 15 MT meaning base Mia has 31 MT with it. Base Zihark has 24.

And Zihark doesn't care about it. Zihark can kill stuff on enemy phases because he doesn't have to worry about taking several blows and dying. Are we really just ignoring all of Zihark's defensive merit? And even worse, is that Mia is not hitting 20/20. So let's be realistic here: that's not even a remotely realistic scenario outside of you playing easy mode, and if you're playing easy mode, everyone is so good that it's a moot point. Everyone is higher in level and can kill things easier.

There is no contest. In the realm of magic sword use Mia destroys the other swordmasters (I didn't forget about Lucia. She has the highest base magic, but also only gets +1 from the band at most and no + ATT supports). Since this means Mia is the only SM who can reliably counter at ranged, even if it is only for as long as the SS/RS holds out, it's a HUGE advantage in her favor.

No really. It doesn't. Magic swords last for 35 attacks over the course of the game. That's... 1 chapter. Maybe a portion of 2 before they break. That's not a huge advantage at all. And even then, I just funneled all of my best weapons to a unit in your scenario to make her better than Zihark. If anything, you just proved why Mia is worse in PoR. And if you're even thinking of saying the Hammerene Staff for her as well, I'm just going to write you off as completely insane for Mia and impossible to even talk to. Mia < Zihark in PoR. Zihark < Mia RD.

[Snowy_One]

Ahhh... The scent of Mia vs. Zihark always warms the cockles of my heart.

Which only means much of anything if that enemy's weak enough that she can kill it with a critical, which won't happen on more durable enemies. And I love how you outright ignored the fact that you get only two killing edges and one VK, and none of them have that many uses.

And adept only means something if the enemy could be 2HKO'ed and it activates on the first strike. Claiming Vantage doesn't matter for Mia's potential 50+ crit percent then claiming Zihark's 29% max skill does is hypocritical.

Also, let's do some math, shall we? Between them the VK and KE's have 65 uses. If we throw in the SS that's 90 uses. The Runesword is 105, and the brave sword is 135. With the Hammerine that grows even more. Now, BEFORE you go 'but you're favoring her with weapons'. No. I'm not. All those swords work well with any sword-user and are a shame to toss aside. Swordmasters get the best out of these swords in general though and most other people will want to keep to axes/lances anyways. Mia doesn't have a monopoly but that sheer number is also NOT a small amount, especially since the KE and VK are crit-boosted so their weapon uses go farther (since there is a good chance of there not being a second strike in the first place).

As for the Hammerine, no, she does not 'deserve' any of them; but if you're wasting it on a replaceable weapon like a forge you're not really using it as well as you could. Use it on a Brave weapon at the LEAST!

As for the magic swords... There are only three real potential wielders. Tanith has access to both throwing weapons and the flame lance so she can go without the SS without much problem. That just leaves Mist as competition. So Mia has a fairly solid chance to get the weapons.

Why are we using 20/20 stats again??? You oughta know full well they don't tell the whole story by now.. Also, another issue I have is that you're assuming that Mia gets the Ilyana support when it doesn't do either of them any real good - all they get out of it is overkill hit for the most part.

In this case they do. The dusts are a hard boost as are her supports. She could be level 1 with 0 base magic and still have a MT of 18 with the SS. The difference between a level 20/10 Mia's magic and 20/20 is also 3 points (4 with the band), so of that potential magic, assuming we're talking a 20/10 Mia, a very sizable chunk of it is 'hard' stat boosts.

As for Ilyana, all Mia needs is a B support and none of her support options really give her anything good. Even with a Mordi/Gatire A/B she's only getting +5 DEF, and Mordi has a better A option in Mist and Gatrie is Gatrie. Heck, if anything Mia's attack is more useful than Zihark's AVO since no one will want her exposed on the EP and she's not dodgy in the first place. All around Ilyana's supports are meh in terms of use for Ilyana.

I dunno about you but 50/55% crit ain't exactly something to be proud of - it's barely any more reliable than a coinflip. And that's wrong anyway, since the Swordmaster crit bonus is 15, not 20.

15 + (26/2) + 30 = 58% Even if you want to argue a 20/1 Mia that's still 15 + (18/2) + 30 = 54%. And if Mia basically needs to flip one coin and have it come up heads, Zihark has to flip two coins and have them both come up heads. That's MUCH less to be proud of.

15% + 50%. 65%. That's dangerous. It's completely dangerous to have a unit that's not known for durability being at half health with most of their weapons being 1 range.

Mia's natural critical is already high before wrath gets factored in. Having wrath active just makes it all the better since she can get well over 80% critical when she hits half-health. Zihark supports are under the misconception that I'm intentionally dropping her down to 50% then NOT healing her. That is stupid. As stupid as, say, having Zihark attack a 3HKO or more enemy and depending on Adept to kill. But of COURSE they'd never be stupid enough to do that.

And no, that's not true at all. Any time Adept activates it's useful in the event that you wouldn't have killed the enemy.

As are criticals. Except unlike adept, criticals can be boosted up via weapon choice.

Also, with adept activates, it gives him a better chance of getting a critical on attacks overall because he's more likely to land a critical more often because he's getting more attacks in.

If an adept critical would really make a difference you're either attacking a 3HKO enemy and NEED it on the first strike or attacking someone Zihark probably shouldn't be fighting in the first place due to extremely high HP/DEF.

There's also the fact that it's just plain more useful on bosses than vantage.

One enemy per map that is probably

Edit: For some reason it's now allowing the full post. Figures.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Snowy_One

[Shadow Mir]

In this case they do. The dusts are a hard boost as are her supports. She could be level 1 with 0 base magic and still have a MT of 18 with the SS. The difference between a level 20/10 Mia's magic and 20/20 is also 3 points (4 with the band), so of that potential magic, assuming we're talking a 20/10 Mia, a very sizable chunk of it is 'hard' stat boosts.

As for Ilyana, all Mia needs is a B support and none of her support options really give her anything good. Even with a Mordi/Gatire A/B she's only getting +5 DEF, and Mordi has a better A option in Mist and Gatrie is Gatrie. Heck, if anything Mia's attack is more useful than Zihark's AVO since no one will want her exposed on the EP and she's not dodgy in the first place. All around Ilyana's supports are meh in terms of use for Ilyana.

15 + (26/2) + 30 = 58% Even if you want to argue a 20/1 Mia that's still 15 + (18/2) + 30 = 54%. And if Mia basically needs to flip one coin and have it come up heads, Zihark has to flip two coins and have them both come up heads. That's MUCH less to be proud of.

Yeah, hard stat boosts that she ain't entitled to, other than her Rhys support.. I don't see a gimmick setup as worth blowing either, let alone both, of the spirit dusts on, and the mage band is virtually useless other than on - you guessed it - mages.

Maybe, but it's still Ily's least useful support by far, given that 1 extra attack ain't gonna set the world on fire.

What about the part where Mia can have said coinflip turn up heads, and STILL fail to kill because of her strength woes?

[Radiant head]

after seeing Snowy complain about Zihark fans ever since I joined this site, it's fun to finally see him have a sparring partner.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Radiant head

[Snowy_One]

Yeah, hard stat boosts that she ain't entitled to, other than her Rhys support.. I don't see a gimmick setup as worth blowing either, let alone both, of the spirit dusts on, and the mage band is virtually useless other than on - you guessed it - mages.

All the mages get high MAG and the enemy usually has low RES. Not to mention Forged Thunder is powerful and siege tomes won't likely double. The mages in general don't care that much for it. Plus, here's the beauty of this... Mia doesn't care that much. Seriously. Take the dust away and she can take the band, she will always have her supports as well. Adding in all that extra stuff just increases the potency.

Maybe, but it's still Ily's least useful support by far, given that 1 extra attack ain't gonna set the world on fire.

None of her supports will. It's better for her to support to help others than try to help herself unless you're planning to use both Zihark and Lucia (lol) in the same run.

What about the part where Mia can have said coinflip turn up heads, and STILL fail to kill because of her strength woes?

Thanks to her supports, if Mia's coinflip turns up heads and she fails to kill, Adept isn't gonna help Zihark out at all. In fact, unless Zihark supports Brom, Mia will likely end up with MORE attack overall (thank you +4 supports!) At 20/1 they're basically only 1-2 points apart and it's only by 20/20 that Zihark really gets a lead on her...of 3 points. Heck, Mia could close the gap further because Zihark is capped at that point while Mia isn't.

[Shadow Mir]

All the mages get high MAG and the enemy usually has low RES. Not to mention Forged Thunder is powerful and siege tomes won't likely double. The mages in general don't care that much for it. Plus, here's the beauty of this... Mia doesn't care that much. Seriously. Take the dust away and she can take the band, she will always have her supports as well. Adding in all that extra stuff just increases the potency.

None of her supports will. It's better for her to support to help others than try to help herself unless you're planning to use both Zihark and Lucia (lol) in the same run.

Thanks to her supports, if Mia's coinflip turns up heads and she fails to kill, Adept isn't gonna help Zihark out at all. In fact, unless Zihark supports Brom, Mia will likely end up with MORE attack overall (thank you +4 supports!) At 20/1 they're basically only 1-2 points apart and it's only by 20/20 that Zihark really gets a lead on her...of 3 points. Heck, Mia could close the gap further because Zihark is capped at that point while Mia isn't.

Magic doesn't exactly have high Mt in this game with the exception of the siege tomes, Rexbolt, and the A ranks (except Tornado), and enemy units tend to have higher Resistance in this game than in most other FEs. And if she doesn't care that much, I'm sure she would't care much about missing the mage band either.

Very funny that you say that, because guess who Mia's supports help? Herself.

I still see Adept helping more than Vantage, because it can potentially turn a non-kill into a kill, be it on enemy phase or player phase. And I already went over Ily not caring for Mia's support.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Snowy_One]

Just an FYI, I'm keeping my posts short to try and ensure that I don't end up like last time, where I spend two hours working to only be able to post 1/3rd of the post. Not fun.

Magic doesn't exactly have high Mt in this game with the exception of the siege tomes, Rexbolt, and the A ranks (except Tornado), and enemy units tend to have higher Resistance in this game than in most other FEs. And if she doesn't care that much, I'm sure she would't care much about missing the mage band either.

I'm not going to speculate on PoR's relationship to other games, but even in-so-far as chapter 27 on Hard there are units with only single-digit RES.

Also, you seem to be missing the point. Mia has options. Zihark simply does not. Mia can use her support, the dusts, or mage band or two or all three to help her become capable of using the SS to great efficiency. Meanwhile even Zihark at his most efficient for MAG growth will end up falling short of a Mia who simply has her supports, nevermind if she gets the dust or band. Even Tanith doesn't have quite this flexibility as her natural Earth support means she'll only get an ATT bonus of +2 for a total of 15-16 at 20/20. If you're seriously planning on using the SS there really is no doubt. Mia, when used properly, is the second best (arguably the best) person to give it to. She has the magic, she has the options, and she gets the delicious SM crit bonus.

Very funny that you say that, because guess who Mia's supports help? Herself.

The thing is that Ilyana really has nothing to her name. Even if she goes full-on DEF she's still slightly squishier than a swordsmaster, who already people want to find some alternate form of defense. A form of defense Ilyana does not naturally have (especially since no one has a clue as to how Shade works). On the player phase you'll want to attack from 2-range just because, and on the EP you won't want her exposed. Tagging on extra DEF to a unit who you'll want to keep away from fighting in general really helps no one.

That isn't true for Mia though who WILL be fighting. Obviously an avoid support would be best for her, but since IS chopped out her Ike support, +attack is the best thing for her to get; both for offensive and defensive purposes. With an element that compliments that goal Mia is a unit who wants her boosts. There is no shame or anything wrong with that at all. Some characters have support options that help them out a lot, some do not. Ilyana does not, but Mia does, as does Zihark.

I still see Adept helping more than Vantage, because it can potentially turn a non-kill into a kill, be it on enemy phase or player phase. And I already went over Ily not caring for Mia's support.

Your choice as to which is better isn't decisive in deciding which is actually better. The fact is that SM's already have a good way of turning non-kills into kills (crit bonus) and need to find ways to negate incoming damage to do their job to the best of their abilities. Mia has both a method to do that (vantage) as well as several complimentary choices (adept for 2HKO enemies and a potential second chance to crit-kill, wrath for sheer crit boost, and guard for simple negation). She can afford to spread the love. Zihark cannot.

Even if Adept were superior to vantage on its own vantage becomes far more potent when combined with other skills. Adept only becomes more potent when combined with vantage.

[Shadow Mir]

I'm not going to speculate on PoR's relationship to other games, but even in-so-far as chapter 27 on Hard there are units with only single-digit RES.

Also, you seem to be missing the point. Mia has options. Zihark simply does not. Mia can use her support, the dusts, or mage band or two or all three to help her become capable of using the SS to great efficiency. Meanwhile even Zihark at his most efficient for MAG growth will end up falling short of a Mia who simply has her supports, nevermind if she gets the dust or band. Even Tanith doesn't have quite this flexibility as her natural Earth support means she'll only get an ATT bonus of +2 for a total of 15-16 at 20/20. If you're seriously planning on using the SS there really is no doubt. Mia, when used properly, is the second best (arguably the best) person to give it to. She has the magic, she has the options, and she gets the delicious SM crit bonus.

The thing is that Ilyana really has nothing to her name. Even if she goes full-on DEF she's still slightly squishier than a swordsmaster, who already people want to find some alternate form of defense. A form of defense Ilyana does not naturally have (especially since no one has a clue as to how Shade works). On the player phase you'll want to attack from 2-range just because, and on the EP you won't want her exposed. Tagging on extra DEF to a unit who you'll want to keep away from fighting in general really helps no one.

That isn't true for Mia though who WILL be fighting. Obviously an avoid support would be best for her, but since IS chopped out her Ike support, +attack is the best thing for her to get; both for offensive and defensive purposes. With an element that compliments that goal Mia is a unit who wants her boosts. There is no shame or anything wrong with that at all. Some characters have support options that help them out a lot, some do not. Ilyana does not, but Mia does, as does Zihark.

I still see Adept helping more than Vantage, because it can potentially turn a non-kill into a kill, be it on enemy phase or player phase. And I already went over Ily not caring for Mia's support.

Your choice as to which is better isn't decisive in deciding which is actually better. The fact is that SM's already have a good way of turning non-kills into kills (crit bonus) and need to find ways to negate incoming damage to do their job to the best of their abilities. Mia has both a method to do that (vantage) as well as several complimentary choices (adept for 2HKO enemies and a potential second chance to crit-kill, wrath for sheer crit boost, and guard for simple negation). She can afford to spread the love. Zihark cannot.

Even if Adept were superior to vantage on its own vantage becomes far more potent when combined with other skills. Adept only becomes more potent when combined with vantage.

1st part: Having options is one thing. Having legitimate options is another thing entirely. And I do not consider Sonic Sword Mia "legitimate" by any stretch of the imagination whatsoever. And another thing. I'd argue that the Sonic Sword is best used by swordies who really want to get rid of one of their counters, those being wyverns. Guess what starts becoming common around the time you get the Sonic Sword?

Second part: Maybe, but still, it doesn't really change the fact that it isn't necessarily what's good for her, since the effects could be replicated with a forge.

Third part: Fair enough, though as I see it, Vantage only really makes a difference if it allows the user to kill their attacker before they can get to attack, or if combined with Guard, which isn't really all that reliable.

[Dark Holy Elf]

The best trueblade in FE10 is either Zihark or Mia, and they're difficult to compare. Both are quite good on their own paths (Zihark really good at first), so it depends if you value Zihark helping out on a harder route more, or the fact that Mia will be stronger going into part 4/endgame. I could see voting either way on this one.

Edward isn't even in the conversation. As has already been observed, his "greater potential" is a myth; he beats Mia in nothing beyond a barely-relevant amount of concrete durability, and that's it. Even Zihark, who has worse stats, is probably better at Endgame due to earth supports, since the stat disadvantage is only slight and earth affinity is far better than light affinity for a swordmaster (or almost anyone, really). And of course, both crush him at every point before Endgame.


Re the FE9 discussion which has randomly spiralled off, I think Mia vs. Zihark is a decent fight but not one worth caring about given that both are mediocre and generally inferior to Ike, Makalov, and Stefan as sword-users.

[Snowy_One]

1st part: Having options is one thing. Having legitimate options is another thing entirely. And I do not consider Sonic Sword Mia "legitimate" by any stretch of the imagination whatsoever. And another thing. I'd argue that the Sonic Sword is best used by swordies who really want to get rid of one of their counters, those being wyverns. Guess what starts becoming common around the time you get the Sonic Sword?

And? Mia is a swordie. One of her counters is wyverns. She is capable of using it for more than just taking down wyverns. Why is this 'illegitimate' again?

Second part: Maybe, but still, it doesn't really change the fact that it isn't necessarily what's good for her, since the effects could be replicated with a forge.

No. Because a forge cannot replicate the bonus of a forge + a support. Or boost defense. Or grant a 30%+ crit rate (outside of the Japanese version). Supports can do things forges cannot. Plain and simple.

Third part: Fair enough, though as I see it, Vantage only really makes a difference if it allows the user to kill their attacker before they can get to attack, or if combined with Guard, which isn't really all that reliable.

Not everything is 'reliable'. You're saying adept is better than vantage because of the chance Zihark will either kill a 2HKO'ed enemy on the first strike that he wouldn't have critted or it will activate when you have him attack an enemy he couldn't 2HKO that, for whatever reason, you're attacking. Except unlike adept, Vantage can be predicted and controlled because it's always active. Tossing on crit or a skill only enhances it.

[Shadow Mir]

And? Mia is a swordie. One of her counters is wyverns. She is capable of using it for more than just taking down wyverns. Why is this 'illegitimate' again?

No. Because a forge cannot replicate the bonus of a forge + a support. Or boost defense. Or grant a 30%+ crit rate (outside of the Japanese version). Supports can do things forges cannot. Plain and simple.

Not everything is 'reliable'. You're saying adept is better than vantage because of the chance Zihark will either kill a 2HKO'ed enemy on the first strike that he wouldn't have critted or it will activate when you have him attack an enemy he couldn't 2HKO The issue is, for her to that, for whatever reason, you're attacking. Except unlike adept, Vantage can be predicted and controlled because it's always active. Tossing on crit or a skill only enhances it.

I don't have a problem with her using the sword to defeat wyverns. The issue is, for her to do more with it, she needs an alarming amount of resources, and that's a red flag. And that's ignoring the fact that you always bring up 20/20 stats when this comes up, despite the fact that by the time you even get there, if you do at all, there's not much game left.

Point taken. But still, if Ily's supports won't make a difference for her either way, I wouldn't see why she'd take the one who has the least benefit for her overall (Mia), short of her other supporters not being fielded.

I agree that not everything is reliable. That said, Adept's chance of activation isn't lowered by enemy luck like crit is. And unless you're using rare weapons, Adept's activation chance will eventually equal or surpass crit chance.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Snowy_One]

Apologies. I totally overlooked this.

I don't have a problem with her using the sword to defeat wyverns. The issue is, for her to do more with it, she needs an alarming amount of resources, and that's a red flag. And that's ignoring the fact that you always bring up 20/20 stats when this comes up, despite the fact that by the time you even get there, if you do at all, there's not much game left.

I also brought up her 20/1 stats. It's true that she is weaker at 20/1, but the power of her combo comes from that she can get between +4 and +11 ATT from up to potentially three various sources (supports, band, and dust).

And here is what you seem to be missing and constantly mis-representing. This 'alarming amount of resources' is OPTIONAL. From her support a 20/1 Mia is 2 points ahead of a 20/20 Zihark with a Brom support, AND on-par with Tanith. Heck, if we DID give her the dusts and band she'd only be about 2 points behind MIST! Granted, unsupported Mist, but still. That's the character people usually save the SS FOR in the first place!

That's not to mention that none of these items are high-demand items like the vantage scroll or other, general, stat-boosters as only a few units even have a point to getting it. At least luck can be used to hit and dodge after all.

Point taken. But still, if Ily's supports won't make a difference for her either way, I wouldn't see why she'd take the one who has the least benefit for her overall (Mia), short of her other supporters not being fielded.

Actually Ilyana's worst supports are Lucia and, arguably, Gatrie. The former due to late joining and the latter due to Gatrie already having a bunch of DEF and Ilyana desiring to avoid combat anyways. And... Seriously? If Ilyana's supports don't matter, she should take the ones that don't matter to her the least? What's the point? They don't matter. Maybe if she built both Gatire and Mordi or both Zihark and Lucia they would, but those are questionable even if you're just going pro-Ilyana since Gatrie has poor move and speed and Lucia simply joins so late (not to mention is pretty much the worst SM).

I agree that not everything is reliable. That said, Adept's chance of activation isn't lowered by enemy luck like crit is. And unless you're using rare weapons, Adept's activation chance will eventually equal or surpass crit chance.

Adept's activation caps out at 29 skippy. It's true that, without specialized weapons, Adept will EVENTUALLY pass as unmodified SM's crit... Later on. But it's going to be hovering pretty low for most of the game. Plus there are a multitude of ways to get bonus crit. Forged weapons and the several crit-boosted weapons mainly. It's not going to be by much that adept wins out over crit. You like saying that 20/20 stats don't matter? Check it. Zihark, at 20/1, has only 20 SKL. That means a 20% activation rate. However it also means his innate critical is 10%, then he gets the SM crit boost to 25%. Zihark is probably better off relying on critical than adept.

Also, this is ignoring the biggest aspect. Adept could have a 100% activation rate and it wouldn't matter BECAUSE HE DOESN'T STRIKE FIRST ON THE EP WITHOUT VANTAGE! This is the big thing you keep MISSING! All the stats in the world don't matter if the game mechanics say he MUST deal with that first strike to even get on the board while Mia has a chance to simply stop the attack entirely.

[Shadow Mir]

Apologies. I totally overlooked this.

I also brought up her 20/1 stats. It's true that she is weaker at 20/1, but the power of her combo comes from that she can get between +4 and +11 ATT from up to potentially three various sources (supports, band, and dust).

And here is what you seem to be missing and constantly mis-representing. This 'alarming amount of resources' is OPTIONAL. From her support a 20/1 Mia is 2 points ahead of a 20/20 Zihark with a Brom support, AND on-par with Tanith. Heck, if we DID give her the dusts and band she'd only be about 2 points behind MIST! Granted, unsupported Mist, but still. That's the character people usually save the SS FOR in the first place!

That's not to mention that none of these items are high-demand items like the vantage scroll or other, general, stat-boosters as only a few units even have a point to getting it. At least luck can be used to hit and dodge after all.

Point taken. But still, if Ily's supports won't make a difference for her either way, I wouldn't see why she'd take the one who has the least benefit for her overall (Mia), short of her other supporters not being fielded.

Actually Ilyana's worst supports are Lucia and, arguably, Gatrie. The former due to late joining and the latter due to Gatrie already having a bunch of DEF and Ilyana desiring to avoid combat anyways. And... Seriously? If Ilyana's supports don't matter, she should take the ones that don't matter to her the least? What's the point? They don't matter. Maybe if she built both Gatire and Mordi or both Zihark and Lucia they would, but those are questionable even if you're just going pro-Ilyana since Gatrie has poor move and speed and Lucia simply joins so late (not to mention is pretty much the worst SM).

I agree that not everything is reliable. That said, Adept's chance of activation isn't lowered by enemy luck like crit is. And unless you're using rare weapons, Adept's activation chance will eventually equal or surpass crit chance.

Adept's activation caps out at 29 skippy. It's true that, without specialized weapons, Adept will EVENTUALLY pass as unmodified SM's crit... Later on. But it's going to be hovering pretty low for most of the game. Plus there are a multitude of ways to get bonus crit. Forged weapons and the several crit-boosted weapons mainly. It's not going to be by much that adept wins out over crit. You like saying that 20/20 stats don't matter? Check it. Zihark, at 20/1, has only 20 SKL. That means a 20% activation rate. However it also means his innate critical is 10%, then he gets the SM crit boost to 25%. Zihark is probably better off relying on critical than adept.

Also, this is ignoring the biggest aspect. Adept could have a 100% activation rate and it wouldn't matter BECAUSE HE DOESN'T STRIKE FIRST ON THE EP WITHOUT VANTAGE! This is the big thing you keep MISSING! All the stats in the world don't matter if the game mechanics say he MUST deal with that first strike to even get on the board while Mia has a chance to simply stop the attack entirely.

First part: There you go again, assuming that an Ilyana support is in the bag for Mia... Anyways, even if none of those items are high-demand, that doesn't change the fact that there are other units that they'd do more good on than Mia.

As for the second part: I ignored Lucia entirely because she comes late. Gatrie might have a use for the hit boost from Ily, though (granted, two of his other support partners also give him hit, but they're mounted, and thus wouldn't be expected to be in support range much, if at all).

As for the third part: It's not that I'm missing the point - It's that I think you put WAY too much emphasis on that point. It's like, geez, do you have to force your opinion that Vantage is the best thing since sliced bread on anyone who dares argue against you? I mean, sure, Vantage might help Mia stop the enemy from getting the attack off... but only if the enemy either:

-Is weakened enough for her to kill with the one preemptive strike

-Has low defense (Warriors, Swordmasters, mages - the former tends to have high HP to compensate, and the latter tend to attack from range, rendering Vantage ineffective)

-Is weak against whatever weapon she's using

Also, I don't really see 9 crit as worth the extra money on a forge. And what's more, during the point in time where a crit is more likely to happen by Adept, it's not by much, given that enemies don't have zero luck in this game (to be fair, this goes both ways).

Edited November 2, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Snowy_One]

First part: There you go again, assuming that an Ilyana support is in the bag for Mia... Anyways, even if none of those items are high-demand, that doesn't change the fact that there are other units that they'd do more good on than Mia.

There are none. The band is better used on units who join under level 20 and Soren desires +STR (at least initially) and Ilyana desires +SPD. Tormod cares more about BEXP in general than what band he gets. Calill and Bastion are too high to get any major use from it. The dusts are really the only point of contention but you've also seemed to miss this. These things are OPTIONAL things. I.E. They make Mia better, BUT SHE WAS ALREADY DOING BETTER WITH IT! Against Tanith they may both have the same MT, but Mia's crit rate means she'll deal critical damage more and it will last a bit longer in her hands due to the occasional first-hit crit. Tossing the bands and dusts on her simply makes this bonus much more pronounced.

As for the second part: I ignored Lucia entirely because she comes late. Gatrie might have a use for the hit boost from Ily, though (granted, two of his other support partners also give him hit, but they're mounted, and thus wouldn't be expected to be in support range much, if at all).

Gatrie's hit is not unusual in any way and lances are not known for being inaccurate. The only use he'd have is maybe against SM's... and no amount of hit can fix that his much bigger problem is his SPD (not to mention he gets a WTA against SM's). Also, both Marcia and Astrid grant hit and Astrid really doesn't have any better supports for at least a B-rank (unless you're planning on deploying Sothe, which you really shouldn't).

As for the third part: It's not that I'm missing the point - It's that I think you put WAY too much emphasis on that point. It's like, geez, do you have to force your opinion that Vantage is the best thing since sliced bread on anyone who dares argue against you? I mean, sure, Vantage might help Mia stop the enemy from getting the attack off... but only if the enemy either:

I wouldn't have to keep on mentioning it if your entire argument didn't hinge on mis-representing it! For example...

-Is weakened enough for her to kill with the one preemptive strike

-Has low defense (Warriors, Swordmasters, mages - the former tends to have high HP to compensate, and the latter tend to attack from range, rendering Vantage ineffective)

-Is weak against whatever weapon she's using

You also left off...

- Has a second skill that activates to stop/kill the foe.

and

- Crits the foe for a kill.

These are not minor things yet you left them off your list entirely. You're going BACKWARDS in your arguments against Mia! Ignoring how the game functions does not make them go away.

Also, I don't really see 9 crit as worth the extra money on a forge. And what's more, during the point in time where a crit is more likely to happen by Adept, it's not by much, given that enemies don't have zero luck in this game (to be fair, this goes both ways).

What you view as being worth the extra money on a forge is meaningless when the game is overflowing with ways to make money. Also, I don't really see how claiming that crit's 'advantage' over adept doesn't count 'for much' before turning around to praise adepts activation rate when they'll probably never be more than 5-7 points apart in terms of activation.

But, really, right now you're sliding backwards and I haven't even been bringing to light things like how Muarim is a questionable long-term deployment or how Zihark has rivals for vantage (like Nephenee). There really isn't anywhere for you to go when your strongest argument is that Ilyana might not want a Mia support as much as a Mordi support (+1 DEF... wooo...) and that Gatrie might want a hit boost.

[ClLoulD]

Your entire playthrough just revolves around Mia and you're unable to see past that. Nephenee can do exactly what Mia does at a lower resource cost with higher result.

- Giving Nephenee Vantage isn't as costly as giving Mia Wrath. The Vantage scroll also appears at chapter 14 as opposed to chapter 18, not forgetting that Day Breaks itself is essentially 4 extra chapters.

- Nephenee's growths are better than Mia's aside from 5% in speed, which becomes significantly less if we give Nephenee the Knights Ward for a few levels and then switching back to a different band if needed. Mia also wins in resistance and magic. Big woop.

- Nephenee has access to a stronger weapon as well as 1-2 range.

- Doesn't need a magic based weapon to kill enemy Generals/Paladins

- 80%+ Crit rate with killer lance + Wrath

- Doesn't need an energy drop

- Given a seraph robe Nephenee can easily be in Wrath! mode without being at too much risk of dying

- Has access to Knight Ward for increased durability

- Doesn't need additional units to fall in behind for support bonuses

Now obviously what I've just done is shown shear favouritism to Nephenee and highlighted a few points to make Mia look bad, this is exactly what you're doing with Zihark!

I agree with your case for Mia, to an extent. Someone says "Mia has no offense" and you reply with give her an energy drop which is a fair point...Until the argument for 1-2 range occurs and you suggest giving Mia a mage band for the sonic sword...Well...You only just made up the strength deficit on Mia a moment ago by giving her the energy drop to her which only just "evens" her strength out to Ziharks on average. If we give Zihark a strength boosting band, which let's be honest is the only one he needs; he's got a 15% strength growth higher than her with a higher cap as well. Rhys is also...Not an option to make up this strength deficit when Mist outclasses him as do the other Sage's in our party.

Ignoring Ziharks obvious 20% defense growth and increased HP growth/levels I guess you do have Zihark beaten somewhere...Skills. I'll admit here you have him beat on skills! You will need to combine it with something else to make it viable, pushing that aside though it really doesn't matter too much. Zihark is going to dodge pretty much everything, As could Mia! Which is why I don't understand the over-emphasis on vantage here?

Both are good units, Ziharks just more cost effective in my eyes...

[Shadow Mir]

@Snowy: I'm not going to bother quoting your post, but anyways...I'm not seeing why you over-emphasize Vantage. Second, Mia's Strength woes mean that unless I'm fielding and supporting her with an outclassed unit who has rock-bottom durability, she probably won't be killing many enemies with one critical hit. Those, among other reasons, are why I see Zihark as better.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Junkhead]

Edward's amazing