omega zero Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 He's got like three promoted classes, compared to the standard up to six for first gen units and up to twelve for 3nd gen units. That's pretty much nothing when a long-term non-Veteran Lunatic+ combat unit is expected to be in their third promoted class by endgame- other than different class paths he's got literally no variation in what his set allows him to do. All of the classes he does have are mostly ending classes on top of that- he doesn't really have room to take a class path other than reclassing back into what he already is. His skill pool as a result is very small and doesn't compliment him well- you can throw together a few that are good/decent on paper but never get any combos going. Sol Warrior is definitely his best option on Lunatic+ nogrind but he'll be reaching Bows A fairly late (he doesn't really want to go through Fighter and has no Discipline), and with a Spd cap of 39 he'll run into some trouble doubling stuff lategame depending on his pairup. Oh, so you mean fewer and less synergistic class options. As a general question, though maybe this is off topic, but why do characters have varying stat total? I just checked a bunch of promoted classes in Excel by copying and pasting the SF table. MU has 365, Kellam has 367, Donnel has 361, Fred has 344, etc. I can see why children characters have higher totals lore-wise/story-wise, but what's preventing IS from adding/subtracting some points here and there to give all other characters equal totals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Are you talking about stat caps there? Different classes have different caps and I guess some are given higher ones to compensate for not having as powerful skills as the others. If you look at the stat cap modifiers for each character, though, they should be roughly equal. It's really not a fair comparison to be doing totals without having everyone character in the same class (or, since no one has a common class across the board in their set, just using their raw stat modifiers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 So first off that's including their class caps, and classes have vastly differing totals because stats alone don't determine class balance: how do you factor in movement, weapon types, weaknesses and overall statistical synergy in determining how good a unit is (this is largely why the game's rating system is bogus)? For example, General has the highest stat total in the game of any class, but due to giving slightly lackluster pairup bonuses, having 5 Mov and not existing on anyone fast enough to use it well bar Morgan, it's not used very often. On the other hand you have the likes of Dark Flier, which has its highest non-Lck stat cap at 42 (after Grandmaster, tied for lowest highest non-Lck cap with a bunch of classes, including Paladin, DK and Bride)- but it's regularly considered to be one of the best classes in the game due to giving Galeforce, having excellent 2nd gen distribution, and having 8-Mov flying Tomes. If you look at the mod totals of individual units, they're a little more balanced numbers wise. You've got a net +5 on the three transforming girls, +3 on all variants of Robin, and +1-2 on most of the others (except Olivia and Vaike, who have +0). However, this doesn't add up to gameplay balance, due to Skl and Spd being much more important than Lck, Def and Res, and having something like +3/-3 Str/Mag is a lot better than having +0/0 Str/Mag. As a result you get units like Vaike (+0) who is incredibly good due to giving +3/1/1 Str/Skl/Spd, and Nowi (+5) who is really lackluster due to giving -1/-2 Skl/Spd, on top of having her strengths and weaknesses not matching up well with any of Robin's possible combinations. Another example would be Robin's constant +3: even though mod totals are always the same, there are some sets that are undeniably better than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega zero Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) Right, I forgot about class totals. But in Awakening, all males can be Dread Fighters, and all females can be Brides. I checked a few guys as Dread Fighters, and the stat totals are almost the same, but there are occasional totals that are 1 point greater or less. I guess that +/- 1 point doesn't matter much. As for classes and characters in general, I guess imbalances are bound to arise given the complexity of all the interacting variables. Schedule and budget must be limiting factors for balancing attempts. Edited March 9, 2015 by omega zero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 More like the DLC wasn't a thing yet when the game was first released, so they had no way to see what would happen when you inflate enemy stats to huge degrees and try to fight them with the game's present balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) You'd be surprised. A breaker skill on top of durability (a la Swordbreaker!Cherche) can make an enemy phase much easier to bear. While enemies are varied, they are also grouped in repeated formations. Speaking from experience, Cherche learned S.Breaker at C20 end. This was immediately put to use against C21 Assassins and Swordmasters, the 51 speed C22 Balmung Swordmaster, C23 Silver Sword Heroes and Assassins, C24 Paladins and C25/26 got 1 turned so whatever. Bow breaker makes dealing with those same assassins much easier because they tend to attack at 2 range with their Silver Bows anyway like assholes. B.Breaker also works for the snipers in Excellus's group in C20 if you have it by then. Tome breaker is even more helpful. C21 Mire sorcs and the 50 crit (60 with Anathema, 75 with Hex/Anathema) become less threatening. Don't underestimate breaker skills. They basically act as a complete nullifier to their respective weapon type. Edit: If for nothing else, Rally skill improves hit vs Grima, who is a major asshole. Grima has 90 Avo on lunatic, and I'm not even sure I'd that includes Grima's Ire (+20 Avo). As mentioned in my response to RFoF, they aren't the only sword wielding threat you see late in the game. Not to mention even after WTD they have massive hit anyway. The only one that really isn't that useful is Axe Breaker, since late game axes tend to be Berserkers and Great Knights, who have pitiful hit. Axe heroes are rare later on too. News flash: That 3/4 Mt hit they're taking from WTD kinda takes some of the bite out of swordies. A note on Swordbreaker: guess what weapon type Paladins, Bow Knights and Dark Knights all have in common, and guess which major boss is incredibly fond of spamming huge waves of those at you? The problem with that is that all three of those classes, especially Dark Knights and Bow Knights, are more prone to use their other weapon types. Edited March 10, 2015 by Levant Caprice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega zero Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 More like the DLC wasn't a thing yet when the game was first released, so they had no way to see what would happen when you inflate enemy stats to huge degrees and try to fight them with the game's present balance. It would have been interesting to see their play-testing protocol for Awakening. It would help answer if they really did balance L/L+ around DLC/Bonus team aid, etc. Clearly, no grind is quite possible, but it would be interesting nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I hear Bench warmer is a good class. Good skills and caps. Hue. Benchwarmer is best for Donnel. Also, I read that on the parenting front, Donnel makes everyone lackluster - his "best" child winds up essentially being no different from their mother mod wise. I mean, sure, mods aren't everything, but they certainly don't help Donnel's case... Aptitude exists. Don't underestimate breaker skills. They basically act as a complete nullifier to their respective weapon type. Omg this. Breakers are pretty reliable for the most part. Dragoncat, do you grind? Hero is a pretty good class for Donnel if you are gonna bother using him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoncat Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Dragoncat, do you grind? Yes I do. Edited March 10, 2015 by Dragoncat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) While PEMN, yeah, my last Lunatic run was an avatar run, with avatars' setup and class paths picked by my friends, and my dark flier (no galeforce at the time) coming from sorcerer had tomebreaker which made her very useful. I think there was only one unit that had significant resistance at that point and even that wasn't strong enough to take lategame tomes. Dark Flier with Tomebreaker just stops giving a fuck and nullifies any magic user that isn't a sorc, despite being in Lunatic lategame. It's certainly nice to have. Edited March 10, 2015 by Thor Odinson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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