Want to make a new tier list?

[Mekkah]

I understand what you wanted to change. My point is that Reyson's team makes better use of Reyson's vigoring even after considering his 1-turn disadvantage. Whether turn 1 matters the most or not depends on the map I think. It's worth noting that Reyson, despite only being able to vigor one guy on turn 1, still enables the 1-turn clear of two maps (3-5 and 4-5).

[XeKr]

Though those 2 chapters aren't hard to 2 turn without him, so what Reyson is expected to do there is at best equal to how much better Rafiel is (relative to Reyson/Leanne) in Endgame (4-E-1, 4-E-3, 4-E-5). And probably not even that, since some of those require significantly more fighting being Routs/vs Auras

So simplifying, it's 1-8, 1-E, 4-1, 4-4 vs 3-7 (timed), 3-8, 3-10, 4-2 at best which Reyson probably doesn't win anyway considering the first turn advantage.

Edited April 3, 2015 by XeKr

[Ownagepuffs]

Can 4-5 be 2 turned without Reyson?

I would actually say that Rafiel makes a bigger impact on his team than Reyson does on his.

1-E without Raf is a pain. 3-5 without Reyson not so much. Reyson does allow for many things in part 3 such as letting Haar get to the middle of the field in 3-10 on the first turn, Haar rescue dropping Ike at the first turn of 3-E, letting Haar get to the action that much faster in 3-8, but I still don't think it matches up with Rafiel's ridiculous 4-E. I know endgame isn't the only part of the game that matters but he's still really good in 4-1/4-4. he also recruits Oliver

[Eselred]

I don't get the Volug hype. A user on GameFAQs started a new tier list for RD as well and is hyping Volug like he's almost top tier with IKE and Haar.

He's strong when he first joins, but his halfshifted stats really start to lag quickly and by 1-E, he's rather vulnerable. In Part 3, he can get better stats, but now he has a laguz gauge to worry about and spends a fair amount of time smoking. I get that he can build solid supports with Jill, Zihark or Nolan, but even still, he seems average/above average to me, and there's no reason to use him in Part 4 or the endgame unless you're just having fun.

[Ownagepuffs]

Volug rapes part 1, then remains incredibly useful in Part 3 if he got S strike. His part 4 lacks but part 4 performance generally doesn't hold a lot of weight. He is very similar to Sothe. Their contributions relative to their team justify their position.

So I was looking at some of the lower tiers because lower tier comparisons are fun. Muarim > Lucia. Unshifted Muarim still has better combat than some of the DB in Part 1 and we know he is invincible otherwise. Lucia rapes 2-2 then never comes back. Muarim can also somewhat contribute in 4-4.

I don't see Neph > Shinon. They take the same resources (crit forge/adept) but Shinon's base parameters can last him for quite a while, especially when the Silencer comes around. GMs have the money for it, too. We all know about his 4-E. He's one of the few with Sufficient AS to double without a speedwings. Gatrie might even be too high.

Elincia is a bit too low as well. 2-P staves, 2-E self improvement, 4-2 self improvement, rape 4-5 with Paragon or just 1 turn it. Flying staves for 4-E. Neither of these guys should be below Soren T or Boyd.

[Eselred]

Volug is great in 1-5 and 1-6 (though Fire magic really hurts him with decent hit rates), and is still useful in 1-7, but when you get Nailah in 1-8, it's like, Volug who? He's a liability in 1-E, and that map is Pass!Nailah and BK stomp anyway.

I use Volug fairly heavily (I mean, he is a competent DB member and that means something), but he gets nowhere near S Strike. You'd have to go out of your way and slowplay to get Volug S Strike in Part 1.

In Part 3, again, a fairly competent DB member, but now he has to waste time smoking and you have some decent DB members by now.

Elincia has like no availability, requires a high amount of investment to be usable end game, and Tibarn can solo those Part 4 maps anyway. Not really worth it, though she's nigh-invincible in 2-P (but that Slim Sword...), and is great in 2-E (who cares though just Haar stomp the map).

[Ownagepuffs]

The only thing you've stated is that Volug is not as good as the DB win buttons. Characters A is not penalized because characters B and C are better than them otherwise any tier under top would be pointless to discuss (edit here to clarify: characters are rated based on their return on investment. What do you get if you actually decide to use them?). Volug can easily get S strike in Part 1 because he is very likely seeing a ton of combat. 1-6-2 alone gives him a bunch because he doubles the cavalier squad but does not kill them unless he gets the 1-2 Energy drop. Even if he does not, somewhere in the beginning of 3-6 is easy enough for him to achieve.

In Part 3 HM you're only decent DB members are Nolan and Jill (maybe Aran. Maybe.) There is not enough Cexp or Bexp in in Part 1 to have a full squad of good DBs. Especially if we're prepping Jill to 2 turn 3-13 (which Volug can also do according to dondon). 3-12 is likely the Crowneo and Super Jill show, but Volug still pulls his weight.

Tibarn cannot solo 4-2 in a reasonable time frame because enemies spawn from 3 sides of the map. There are 1-2 range enemies as well to specifically stop a Royal solo. This applies to every part 4 map save 4-5, where a Tibarn solo is still a pain in the ass because lolrewarp staff. Guess which unit helps the 1 turn of this map. Spoiler alert: it's Elincia. Even if you don't train her she's still worth taking to Endgame because flying staves + a respectable magic base. You should train her anyway, because she can have some of the best offense on your team going into 4-E. Hello ORKOing Wardwood auras w/Dragon tides. Hello ORKOing 51 HP/31 Def Generals in 4-E-1 (even Base Tibarn leaves them with 1 HP. Tibarn.). Hello not having to compete for an SS weapon. She needs literally nothing save Paragon, which is a lot more than what most units in this game can say.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Mekkah]

Ownagepuff, you are doing a fine job of listing the pros of individual units in a vacuum, but those are not good arguments for moving anything. You gotta actually compare people. Now I know that's a shitty job because RD availability is all over the place, but that's just how it is.

[Ownagepuffs]

You have a point there, Mekkah. I suppose I'm just curious for the reasoning behind some of these placements. I'm not Narga_Rocks tier, so don't expect a mountain of awesome text and numbers. I'm just doing a general comparison.

Lucia vs Muarim isn't even hard.

Muarim helps in 1-7, 1-8, and 1-E. Dude's more or less invincible there. Come 4-4 he might even get by with some chip against the reinforcements.

Lucia dominates 2-2 and... that's it. She comes back in 4-2 and kind of just flops. She can also chip some reinforcements. Both units have outlived their usefulness at this point but I'm pretty sure Muarim's god tier 3 chapters are better than Lucia's high tier 1 chapter.

Boyd vs Shinon? Shinon has 6 more AS at base. Shinon's oportunity cost has always been adept and a crit forge. Both of these things he can take from the DB via Ilyana, which lets Mia have her crit forge and adept as well. Boyd isn't Boyd T. Even a speedwings still leaves him with an AS rut. Shinon doubles everything in 3-P sans the Swordmasters. He's likely to be manning the Ballistae but it's worth mentioning. Base Boyd is doubled by the SMs and doubles nothing on this map. 3-1 is tricky because everyone is assumed to be in play. People are ganging up for kills. Still, on an enemy by enemy comparison, Shinon still doubles everything on the map except SMs and since Mia's offense is lol due to not having a crit forge or Ike support then Shinon does pretty well with it. 3-2 comes along, Boyd has proc'd 2 speed and takes a speedwings, leaving him with lol 22 AS. Only getting the mages (edit, Paladins as well, so that's something). Swordmasters are still a pain in the ass, Shinon is also one of the go to boss killers of this map with a crit forge for the 2 turn(?) clear because the boss moves first IIRC. Sure Boyd could take adept but there was already a big discussion in the old tier list thread on how much better adept is on a high AS unit than a borderline doubling unit. Boyd has a hard time with BEXP because warrior caps are high and he's far from them, whereas Shinon's 2 points away from capping his highest stats. 3-3 sucks for the both but it's worth noting that Shinon can get some significant enemy phase action around the boss area since he has the AS to take them all on and there's a wall there, 3-4 sucks for both but with Silencer's wtf 100 Hit + Shinon's wtf Skl he can actually shoot the guys on ledges with respectable accuracy. 3-5 is defend, both can take some ledges and kill things, 3-7 is lol for both, 3-8 and beyond is where Boyd would start to have the advantage thanks to 1-2 range on a rout map, but can Boyd really be expected to have 24-25 AS here? There's also the durability difference but that doesn't really matter. We already know what's up come 4-E.

Funny thing about training Shinon is that because he's so close to his caps all you have to do is give him some Cexp in each map then finish off his levels with Bexp. After he's capped Skl/spd he has a really easy time getting up his Str and Defense. Boyd is not so fortunate. Without the speedwings he's doomed to a mediocre life. Speedwings are used to get our gods (Tits and Haar) off the ground immediately while forges are easy to come by (there's enough money) and adept's competition boils down to other high AS units such as Ike, Mia (take Soren's), Ulki, and Janaff (with an energy drop he ORKOs everything forever regardless). These characters are already above him on the list anyway.

My argument for Shinon is that he's extremely low investment for high payoff. He's Sniper Mia with what might as well be a Prf bow from 3-4 onwards. Neph is harder to argue for since I never really used her. Mia-lite is a good way to describe her. Her worth really hinges on how much we're milking 2-E. Personally, I don't. I give Haar all the part 2 Bexp, a speedwings, stick around for about 4 turns to get the energy drop and then end the chapter. Neph is higher investment than Shinon and her ROI is never anything more than Mia-lite. The cost of training her is the same as Shinon (crit forge + adept) + some of part 2's bexp (more contested for than Part 3's Bexp) and some turns in 2-E. I might just go into the old tier thread and read arguments for Neph since she really strikes me as average.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Chiki]

Third tier Lucia with some bexp invested is great in 4-2. It's not so clear as you think. Both seem to be pretty equal.

[Ownagepuffs]

Is it not still 3 chapters of contribution to 2? Although Muarim may not actually do anything in 1-E if we're doing the Nailah/BK stomp so it depends it is probably equal. I do think Muarim's no investment 1-7 and 1-8 contributions beat Lucia 2-2 and investment 4-2.

Your thoughts on Shinon vs Boyd (N)?

[Eselred]

Just finishing up my recent playthrough of RD (it's been a while...), and Elincia is more useful than I initially gave her credit for. She has next to no availability and requires a BEXP investment to be useful in Part 4, but she does help clear her Part 4 maps quicker and is decent for Endgame. She's not amazing as has been claimed, but I'd say she's at least above-average. Her lack of availability is brutal and probably the biggest mark against her.

I get that Volug is a competent Fail Brigade member, and that in of itself makes him valuable. Halfshifting really starts to hurt him towards the end of Part 1, and in Part 3/4 he has to smoke a lot. I've never gotten him to S Strike in Part 1, and I lean on him pretty heavily because he's a decent unit in an army full of scrubs. I just don't get or agree with all the "Volug for Top Tier!" hype. In all my games, the all stars of the DB (if there is such a thing) are Sothe (Part 1 carrying), Jill, Taureneo (when he's actually around) and Zihark. I personally rate Volug right around Zihark, because while he can be more powerful, laguz gauge (or halfshifted) and 1-range lock are very real negatives.

IKE is actually mortal before promotion, and roflstomps the rest of the game after promotion, so I'm not sure about Top tier for IKE believe it or not. Haar is clearly the best unit in the game and it's hilarious how broken he is. I'd split up the top tiers like this:

I ROFLStomp Most Of The Game:

Haar

I ROFLStomp After Promotion:

IKE

The rest...

I've never considered using Lucia in Part 4, because she's gone for so long and kind of underwhelming when she returns. Elincia seems like a much better BEXP target than Lucia, because Elincia's flying can help speed up clearing 4-2 and 4-5, and Amiti is an infinite Brave Sword.

Muarim is a beast (no pun intended) in Part 1, but then he's just gone until 4-4, where he's not really doing much other than chip damage or soaking a few hits. Still, he helps out the DB, and they suck, so that is a big plus.

Boyd's SPD is a big problem, especially Boyd (N), so IMHO Shinon > Boyd, but Shinon has his issues too. He has no Enemy Phase without using crossbows, and they don't do very much damage to non-fliers. Enemies also love to target Shinon, even with a crossbow and Shade equipped and tons of other targets available to choose from. Shinon is pretty easy to BEXP abuse though, and the lack of EP can actually be a good thing because you can leave him close to a level but not have to worry about a counterattack pushing him to a level up.

I used to love Neph in older playthroughs of RD, but I think "Mia-lite" is a great way to describe her. She just doesn't seem worth it.

[Junkhead]

Before I go on, let me say this:

Ike's overrated. He doesn't have the means to dominate Part 3 against the likes of Haar, Tiamat, Oscar and even Boyd and Gatrie (with good investment). He doesn't. In fact, normal Ike has trouble doubling. okay, so he promotes and dominates Part 4, that's a granted.

And don't worry, ownagepuffs. Senpai always notices. ( ・ˇ∀ˇ・)

Edited April 8, 2015 by The Red Queen

[Eselred]

Before I go on, let me say this:

Ike's overrated. He doesn't have the means to dominate Part 3 against the likes of Haar, Tiamat, Oscar and even Boyd and Gatrie (with good investment). He doesn't. In fact, normal Ike has trouble doubling. okay, so he promotes and dominates Part 4, that's a granted.

And don't worry, ownagepuffs. Senpai always notices. ( ・ˇ∀ˇ・)

I actually kind of agree, surprise I know. In Part 3, IKE is definitely below Haar and Titania, maybe Oscar, but not Boyd and Gatrie (IMHO). That Part 4 and Endgame domination is so thorough, however, that IKE gets major points for just destroying everything after promotion. You have to look at a unit's contribution throughout the whole game, and while Hero IKE isn't anything special, Vanguard IKE crushes everything before him.

I never have trouble doubling with IKE however. He's fairly easy to BEXP abuse into SPD, especially with transfers because he can get some sick transfers due to his ridiculous growths in PoR.

[momogeek2141]

What makes Haar so good? He has doubling issues on 2-E, yet he does 70%+ damage to every unit he encounters. Plus he flies and canto and move and defense. But the speed...I'm missing some use of him, can you guys point it out?

[Junkhead]

I actually kind of agree, surprise I know. In Part 3, IKE is definitely below Haar and Titania, maybe Oscar, but not Boyd and Gatrie (IMHO). That Part 4 and Endgame domination is so thorough, however, that IKE gets major points for just destroying everything after promotion. You have to look at a unit's contribution throughout the whole game, and while Hero IKE isn't anything special, Vanguard IKE crushes everything before him.

I never have trouble doubling with IKE however. He's fairly easy to BEXP abuse into SPD, especially with transfers because he can get some sick transfers due to his ridiculous growths in PoR.

Oscar will always have the advantage on mobility. That's the sealing factor, pretty much. Sure, he does have Atk issues and even Spd issues himself. But those can be aided with an Energy Drop, maybe a Speedwings and BEXP. Once he's over that issue, you can promote him with the Crown and he's doing a great job all up to the start of Endgame. Gatrie can get Celerity and be an 8 Mov juggernaut (he's actually a decent Not-Haar option) and Boyd, while he does take quite an investment (Angelic Robe, a Secret Book, BEXP...maybe even a Speedwings, he'd really want it), he can become a main Solo Force and even do what Ike does in Part 4 (so can Gatrie, by the way). Best part? They're also doing that in Part 3, and carrying the team with them.

Ike is a great unit. But he can only do so much, and be in one place and not as fast as the others (metaphorically speaking).

What makes Haar so good? He has doubling issues on 2-E, yet he does 70%+ damage to every unit he encounters. Plus he flies and canto and move and defense. But the speed...I'm missing some use of him, can you guys point it out?

Sure thing.

Haar's so good because he flies and does what you said. But he can also turn into a ridonculous killing machine that flies and gets everywhere before others all the time, with good investment. In 2-E, you give him the Speedwings and he can 1-turn that chapter reliably. You also dump BEXP into him to aid his Spd, it caps and then you promote him with the 3-3 Master Crown. He's ridiculously good, and it isn't that much of an investment that he isn't putting to a great use.

Edited April 8, 2015 by The Red Queen

[Radiant head]

2-3 speedwing or bexp dumb is all Haar needs to double things. The latter is viable if you want to give Titania the speedwing.

In addition to his movement, Haar has the defense of a general, and can 2HKO anything besides actual generals with ordinary hand axes. He can just hold a stack of hand axes and dominate maps with 1-2 range. And he can just hold on to a Steel Poleaxe in case he runs into a tanky unit.

[momogeek2141]

Oh, I thought he was so good that he didn't need any investment. Well I'll just pray he caps something soon and then give him some BEXP. Thanks.

[Junkhead]

Many if not most characters need a thing or two to shine out to their true potential:

- Jill needs a few statbooster off the DBs team

- Reyson HIGHLY appreciates a Laguz Stone

- Tiamat loves the Speedwings

- Oscar also does...and an Energy Drop...and BEXP...

- Mia, Adept + Forge

Edited April 8, 2015 by The Red Queen

[Radiant head]

When I first played this game, I actually defended all 15 turns, so Haar got a lot of grinding and proc'd enough speed to reach his god status when he joins the GM's.

I would probably still prefer to wait all 15 turns in 2-E (since I'm not an LTC player) and grind if it weren't for the fact that the CRK's are terrible when they show up and it becomes stressful to just keep them alive, let alone get through that corridor.

[Chiki]

Your thoughts on Shinon vs Boyd (N)?

No contest, Boyd (N) >>> Shinon. Shinon is pretty useless for LTC runs.

[Baldrick]

What does Boyd do? I can't imagine it much being three greater than signs more than Shinon, considering no horse and doubling issues.

[Ownagepuffs]

No contest, Boyd (N) >>> Shinon. Shinon is pretty useless for LTC runs.

It's hard to imagine use for either of them in a strict LTC setting. Boyd's doubling rut is fierce. Boyd T is a different story.

[Junkhead]

Boyd has 2-range and Shinon doesn't. Thing is, this isn't LTC. And Shinon's no slouch in combat despite that issue.

[Radiant head]

Uh, I'm guessing you mean 1-range.

And Boyd is so awful without a speed transfer. 1-2 range is only useful if you're not getting doubled by swordmasters.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Radiant head