Want to make a new tier list?

[dondon151]

Volug is great in 1-5 and 1-6 (though Fire magic really hurts him with decent hit rates), and is still useful in 1-7, but when you get Nailah in 1-8, it's like, Volug who? He's a liability in 1-E, and that map is Pass!Nailah and BK stomp anyway.

i'm 99% sure you can't 4-turn 1-E without volug.

I use Volug fairly heavily (I mean, he is a competent DB member and that means something), but he gets nowhere near S Strike. You'd have to go out of your way and slowplay to get Volug S Strike in Part 1.

i've gotten volug to S strike before 1-8 while getting the minimum turncounts on 1-5 through 1-7 inclusive.

No contest, Boyd (N) >>> Shinon. Shinon is pretty useless for LTC runs.

boyd (N) blows so much, he's almost completely useless. in runs without transfers (which is what we should assume if boyd is (N)) he's 4 AS short of doubling threshold for early part 3 maps and one speedwings is guaranteed for haar to 1-turn 2-E. titania doesn't need the speedwings to function in part 3, but she's at substantial risk of not being able to double 4-1 enemies without it.

shinon enables the 3-turn for 3-1 much more than boyd does and he's better at feeding kills to better units.

[Baldrick]

Boyd has 2-range and Shinon doesn't. Thing is, this isn't LTC. And Shinon's no slouch in combat despite that issue.

Rhys > Shinon, make it happen.

Yeah, Boyd definitely has a better EP than Shinon, but it probably wouldn't mean much in practical terms if all the top GMs are around. If he leaves enemies alive that would otherwise die, he might even be negative utility (Shinon can take Shade or hang back and have a neutral EP). And like you imply, Shinon has the better PP so his contribution is more meaningful.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Baldrick

[Eselred]

I'm not a super pro like you dondon, as most players aren't. The tactics and planning you use in some of your videos is pretty amazing stuff. In all of my playthroughs as an above-average FE player, I've never gotten Volug to S Strike in Part 1. Mind you, I'm not saying he's bad; quite the opposite in fact. Volug is a competent DB member in an army full of losers, and that is very valuable. I just don't get all the hype that Volug is one of the best units in the game.

In reference to Haar being his own tier, others have already addressed it. His SPD issues are easily solved, and he basically solos most maps right up to Endgame. Just park him in the middle of the opposing army with an inventory full of Hand Axes and laugh all the way through enemy phase. He's literally a flying tank.

I guess I could see Gatrie above IKE in Part 3, since all he requires in an early crown and Celerity to become a mobile tank. Celerity is also super useful on Haar however, and Haar > all, so that's a thing. Part 4 and Endgame IKE is no contest, however. Even forged Hand Axes pale in comparison to Ragnell, and Aether is great and can keep IKE topped off in the middle of a pack of enemies (if he even gets hit at all).

Boyd just isn't that great, even with transfers. He requires so much investment to get going, and there are so many other great GM members that are better that it's not really worth it.

As an aside, I'm fairly certain that this is not an LTC list, just an "efficiency" list. LTC players will obviously have different values since they play for absolutely the best turncounts and nothing else matters.

[Ownagepuffs]

I have gotten him to S strike in part 1. Really, you just aren't using him enough. His comparative performance to his team is exactly why he is so high up. 1 range lock would suck if the DB's hardest chapters weren't all 1 range. Fire weakness would suck if the DB even fought fire mages at all in part 3.

Ike's not being given enough credit here. Gatrie above him would nuke the credibility of the list. He's still a top tier unit, it's just that Tits and Haar are better. He beats everyone else by a pretty big margin because of how low investment he is for his returns. No forge, no skills, no statboosters, no nothing. Just BEXP.

[Eselred]

IKE is definitely top tier, due to his dominance of Part 4 and Endgame. However, at least from my perspective, there are a few GMs during Part 3 that are more useful during that chapter, but then IKE promotion happens and it's all over. That promotion is quite late though...

I don't know if anyone was arguing for the "other" GMs like Gatrie or Boyd over IKE in the overall tier list, and if they were, that would be quite silly.

Maybe I don't use Volug enough with my playstyle, but I do use him quite a bit since he's one of the few decent DB members. I still can't see S Strike in Part 1, because 1-6-1 has him splitting combat with Sothe, Taureneo and Zihark, 1-6-2 I usually have him tag along with Jill on the right side (and he does his part but those fire mage enemies...), 1-7 has fire mage enemies and Muarim joins, 1-8 has Nailah, and by 1-E his halfshifted stats become a major combat liability. It seems like, at least in my opinion, that you'd have to go out of your way to get S Strike in Part 1.

[Chiki]

Boyd has 2-range and Shinon doesn't. Thing is, this isn't LTC. And Shinon's no slouch in combat despite that issue.

"Efficient LTC" sounds pretty on-point, yeah.

Make up your mind, will you?

[Moishe Oofnik]

Effeciency=/=LTC

LTC is lowest possible turn count

Effeciency is a rather low turn run

So make up your mind

and if this is "Reliable LTC"

you are going to have a superbly small amount of high tiers and the tier list would be split to 2 ranks

Use>Dont use

and Volug would probably above sothe by helping for more 1-4 turn clears

also shinon has 2 range he doesnt have 1 range

Boyds AS is really bad with no transfer too

Edited April 8, 2015 by TTPK_Tal

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think Volug's Part 3 is that great honestly. He has to grass for a lot of 3-6(misses like the first 2 turns and a few others which is kind of a big deal). 3-12 is a bad map for him, high enemy density with a lot of 1-2 range means a lot of no counters and untransforming. I guess he can serve as your Ike killer in 3-13 if you didn't train Jill or Nolan (what are you doing in this playthrough lol).

I think he's around the right spot though.

[Ownagepuffs]

Ike's part 4 isn't any better than anyone you've been training and his endgame isn't special because even without royals now you have several badasses packing 18-25 Mt weapons. Jill, Elincia, Shinon, and Tanith make him look silly there. Strict LTC has you doing a royal rush regardless.

Here's how to S strike Volug.

1-5 He handled the entire west side of the map. Gets the soldiers that spawn north and the Myrms that spawn south.

1-6-1 He goes to the top right to munch on armors. Taur is dropped west by Jill.

1-6-2 He takes the western cavalier squad.

1-7 He can get some units around the boss area or charge through the corridor with Z.

1-8 Bandits

1-E Volug with pass can munch on archers if he isn't shoving them.

That's the jist. Specifics can be seen in dondon's playthtrough.

Make up your mind, will you?

Low turn count and lowest turn count are different, wouldn't you say?

I don't think Volug's Part 3 is that great honestly. He has to grass for a lot of 3-6(misses like the first 2 turns and a few others which is kind of a big deal). 3-12 is a bad map for him, high enemy density with a lot of 1-2 range means a lot of no counters and untransforming. I guess he can serve as your Ike killer in 3-13 if you didn't train Jill or Nolan (what are you doing in this playthrough lol).

I think he's around the right spot though.

Depending on how much you concentrate on Jill it might be hard for even Nolan to catch up. Jill makes 3-12 and 3-13 look silly and 3-6 is her playground. Volug is more clutch in part 1 than Nolan is so I'd even be okay with the two of them switching positions.

[Chiki]

Efficient LTC is a kind of lowest turn count playthrough. It's just getting the lowest turn counts while playing reliably.

[dondon151]

I don't think Volug's Part 3 is that great honestly. He has to grass for a lot of 3-6(misses like the first 2 turns and a few others which is kind of a big deal). 3-12 is a bad map for him, high enemy density with a lot of 1-2 range means a lot of no counters and untransforming. I guess he can serve as your Ike killer in 3-13 if you didn't train Jill or Nolan (what are you doing in this playthrough lol).

volug is okay in 3-6. jill is obviously enabling the lowest turncount because you need a flier to intercept laguz reinforcements from different points on the map. volug can pretty much do the same thing as an invested nolan even though he's untransformed for the first 2 turns; S strike volug with beastfoe OHKOs a couple of cats near the beginning and then he should be transformed for the rest of the map. he's not good in 3-12, but compared to a fully invested nolan and assuming that jill isn't trivializing the map, he probably only loses a turn.

[-Cynthia-]

Not really seeing how Volug is more "clutch" than Nolan in Part 1. I'm not sure we can even reliably complete 1-1 or 1-2 at all without Nolan- Volug is nice to have around, but Nolan's turn impacts on the first few chapters are pretty huge.

If we get Nolan into reliable doubling range, I dunno how he only gets to be a turn faster than Volug who takes 2 turns to even enter combat, lacks 1-2 range, and can't be exposed to that many enemies for fear of untransforming.

[Eselred]

I tend to agree with Cynthia. Volug is good, but I just don't view him as great. Sothe is carrying the DB for a few maps when Volug isn't even around, and Nolan is one of the rare early DB members who can actually take a hit. Getting Volug to S Strike in Part 1 seems like a lot of work when you can just use Jill, Taureneo (when he's around), Sothe and Zihark to help clear faster. Halfshifting really starts to hurt Volug quickly in Part 1, and after that, it's a few Part 3 maps and Volug just isn't that great in any of them, while Sothe can at least Beast Killer some laguz in 3-6 and 3-13 without having to smoke. I personally view Sothe as more valuable than Volug, with Zihark and Nolan being right around the same level as Abs of Steel Wolf.

I also overestimated how great IKE was in Endgame. His Part 4 maps are still his playground though, as I usually throw Paragon on him and he gains a ton of levels in just two maps. Royals make everyone look silly in Endgame, especially if you BEXP a few of their key stats like STR and SPD. I don't get at all what Tanith is doing in Endgame, as you shouldn't even be getting the Wishblade because of MC Hammertime IKE. Elincia really helps to clear 4-2 faster, and she helps fast clear 4-5 by clearing up space for Tibarn, but she's really not great in Endgame either. IKE solos entire parts of his two Part 4 maps, and he doesn't have a Kill Boss map that goes by quick so him taking out a ton of enemies really helps. Shinon isn't that great without the Double Bow, and by the time you get it, the Royal Stomp is in full effect so it really doesn't make much of a difference.

[-Cynthia-]

You can get the Wishblade and still 1 turn 4-E(2). Use siege tomes/heron and stuff.

[Radiant head]

Yeah lefail can be killed faster than BK, and Resolve won't even save him.

[dondon151]

Not really seeing how Volug is more "clutch" than Nolan in Part 1. I'm not sure we can even reliably complete 1-1 or 1-2 at all without Nolan- Volug is nice to have around, but Nolan's turn impacts on the first few chapters are pretty huge.

edward should also be top tier for being virtually the only usable unit in 1-P

If we get Nolan into reliable doubling range, I dunno how he only gets to be a turn faster than Volug who takes 2 turns to even enter combat, lacks 1-2 range, and can't be exposed to that many enemies for fear of untransforming.

no enemy that you'll face within the first two turns on the right hand side will have 1-2 range, and volug can transform turn 1 with a laguz stone stolen from lethe or mordecai in 3-6.

[Eselred]

I will have to try that strategy to take out Levail for E-2 in my current HM playthrough. I always go IKE Hammertime out of habit, and I almost never bring a spear user to Endgame anyway. Wishblade still doesn't move the meter much for a spear unit, however, because the Royals are doing the heavy lifting in Endgame.

So I just finished Part 1 HM, and my opinion of Volug got even lower. He's good in 1-5 and 1-6 (those fire mages though...), but by 1-7, he starts getting blown up pretty quick with very shaky avoid chances and has trouble 1RKOing most non-squishy enemies. In 1-8, he's getting blown up again, and he even has trouble doubling the axe dudes. He was poisoned and almost dead after just the first turn, so I had him hide in a corner with Rafiel while Nailah did all the work on the left side. To top off all the disappointment, he's only about 2/3 the way to S Strike, and he only gains like 1-2 EXP per enemy. Sothe and Volug both serve in utility roles for 1-E, and when 3-6 rolls around, Sothe can at least take out some laguz without having to smoke half the time; the same goes for 3-13. They're both not terribly useful in 3-12.

In my opinion, Sothe is the MVP of Part 1. He carries the DB scrubs in 1-2, 1-3 and 1-4 when Volug isn't even around. Forge him a few +MT Iron Knives (costs like 1700 per forge IIRC) starting in 1-5, and he's even better at combat than Volug, at 1-2 range to boot. He has chest utility if you choose to utilize it, and there's a neat trick I like to use for 1-7 and 1-8 by having Sothe equip Savior and Rescue Micaiah to keep her scrubby self from getting one shot and to also get their support bonus.

I'd even say that Zihark is better than Volug. He has free Adept, nice Crit, 1-2 range, a Killing Edge, a Brave Sword and doesn't have to deal with halfshifting or a laguz gauge nor does he get blown up by fire. I will say that Volug is probably better than Nolan, who I dropped by 1-6 when the big boys (and Jill) showed up.

Edit: Typo

Edited April 10, 2015 by Eselred

[Baldrick]

edward should also be top tier for being virtually the only usable unit in 1-P

That's fair, he is a Jeigan after all.

a laguz stone stolen from lethe or mordecai in 3-6.

How practical is that, though?

[-Cynthia-]

edward should also be top tier for being virtually the only usable unit in 1-P

no enemy that you'll face within the first two turns on the right hand side will have 1-2 range, and volug can transform turn 1 with a laguz stone stolen from lethe or mordecai in 3-6.

Yeah I know Nolan's 1-1 and 1-2 kind of fall under 'we don't have any better units and we need him', but it's hard to argue that Nolan is not as 'clutch' as Volug in Part 1. If people want to argue that Volug's Part 1 is better because he's better in the later chapters where we have more units, more power to them I guess.

I've never stolen a Laguz Stone from Lethe/Mordy tbh, but if that works then Volug's 3-12 is better than I thought.

[Chiki]

It follows from my "analysis" of forced units that Nolan gets more points relative to Edward because there's more forced units in Nolan's chapters than on Edward's chapter. Even so, Edward probably gets more points for his contributions in 1-P alone (simply because he saves like what, 40 turns).

Nolan can do things in 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5. 1-6, 1-7, 1-8 and 1-E Part 3 that Edward can't, which is good.

[dondon151]

How practical is that, though?

doable in a 7 turn clear; maybe doable in a 6 turn clear depending on how many enemies are in that area by the time sothe gets there. but if you're 6-turning 3-6, then you probably don't need volug for 3-12.

[Chiki]

I doubt 3-6 can be 6 turned. It would be nice if I could turn the fog off somehow to be sure, though.

[dondon151]

wait, i spat out the wrong numbers. i meant to say that stealing a laguz stone is doable in an 8-turn and probably not needed in a 7-turn since you need juggernaut jill for a 7-turn.

[Ownagepuffs]

I tend to agree with Cynthia. Volug is good, but I just don't view him as great. Sothe is carrying the DB for a few maps when Volug isn't even around, and Nolan is one of the rare early DB members who can actually take a hit. Getting Volug to S Strike in Part 1 seems like a lot of work when you can just use Jill, Taureneo (when he's around), Sothe and Zihark to help clear faster. Halfshifting really starts to hurt Volug quickly in Part 1, and after that, it's a few Part 3 maps and Volug just isn't that great in any of them, while Sothe can at least Beast Killer some laguz in 3-6 and 3-13 without having to smoke. I personally view Sothe as more valuable than Volug, with Zihark and Nolan being right around the same level as Abs of Steel Wolf.

I also overestimated how great IKE was in Endgame. His Part 4 maps are still his playground though, as I usually throw Paragon on him and he gains a ton of levels in just two maps. Royals make everyone look silly in Endgame, especially if you BEXP a few of their key stats like STR and SPD. I don't get at all what Tanith is doing in Endgame, as you shouldn't even be getting the Wishblade because of MC Hammertime IKE. Elincia really helps to clear 4-2 faster, and she helps fast clear 4-5 by clearing up space for Tibarn, but she's really not great in Endgame either. IKE solos entire parts of his two Part 4 maps, and he doesn't have a Kill Boss map that goes by quick so him taking out a ton of enemies really helps. Shinon isn't that great without the Double Bow, and by the time you get it, the Royal Stomp is in full effect so it really doesn't make much of a difference.

I just outlined how to get S strike. Tanith flies up the left side in 4-E-1 to take out the siege tome and the subsequent Sages that attack her on EP. Laguz do not have 2 range. Elincia is a rare case of being good for endgame whether you trained her or not. If you trained her, then her offense will make the rest of the team look like children and if you don't she is still contributing to the 1 turn clear of 4-E-3 and can fortify spam 4-E-5. I'm assuming we're sparing the turns to train Elincia because if an otherwise mediocre level 1 Halberdier with non existent contributions past 2-2 can get that high then we're going to train Elincia and Shinon (seriously why is Neph above them). You can 1 turn and get Wishblade, and why the fuck wouldn't you. Cap Strength Seraph Knight with Wishblade has 54 Atk, which is 2 less than Base Tibarn, 2 more than SS Strike Naesala, and equivalent to Base Nailah. Except Tanith (or Marcia) can attack with 1-2 Range. Double blood tide Brings that up to 64 AKA Base Giffca. Why yes, I'll take 1-2 Range Giffa offense in E-5 that can canto away. Even with a Royal Flush of 4-E you have like 5 deployment slots. There's room for contribution.

Ike does solo parts of his maps. Everyone you've been training does. Know why? Because they're rout maps. Everyone you've trained is expected to handle a clump of enemies. That's how you clear them. I'm not going to give Ike credit for doing what my other units are also doing.

I will have to try that strategy to take out Levail for E-2 in my current HM playthrough. I always go IKE Hammertime out of habit, and I almost never bring a spear user to Endgame anyway. Wishblade still doesn't move the meter much for a spear unit, however, because the Royals are doing the heavy lifting in Endgame.

So I just finished Part 1 HM, and my opinion of Volug got even lower. He's good in 1-5 and 1-6 (those fire mages though...), but by 1-7, he starts getting blown up pretty quick with very shaky avoid chances and has trouble 1RKOing most non-squishy enemies. In 1-8, he's getting blown up again, and he even has trouble doubling the axe dudes. He was poisoned and almost dead after just the first turn, so I had him hide in a corner with Rafiel while Nailah did all the work on the left side. To top off all the disappointment, he's only about 2/3 the way to S Strike, and he only gains like 1-2 EXP per enemy. Sothe and Volug both serve in utility roles for 1-E, and when 3-6 rolls around, Sothe can at least take out some laguz without having to smoke half the time; the same goes for 3-13. They're both not terribly useful in 3-12.

In my opinion, Sothe is the MVP of Part 1. He carries the DB scrubs in 1-2, 1-3 and 1-4 when Volug isn't even around. Forge him a few +MT Iron Knives (costs like 1700 per forge IIRC) starting in 1-5, and he's even better at combat than Volug, at 1-2 range to boot. He has chest utility if you choose to utilize it, and there's a neat trick I like to use for 1-7 and 1-8 by having Sothe equip Savior and Rescue Micaiah to keep her scrubby self from getting one shot and to also get their support bonus.

I'd even say that Zihark is better than Volug. He has free Adept, nice Crit, 1-2 range, a Killing Edge, a Brave Sword and doesn't have to deal with halfshifting or a laguz gauge nor does he get blown up by fire. I will say that Volug is probably better than Nolan, who I dropped by 1-6 when the big boys (and Jill) showed up.

Edit: Typo

It's a good thing your inability to properly use Volug will have no bearing on his rightfully deserved spot.

It follows from my "analysis" of forced units that Nolan gets more points relative to Edward because there's more forced units in Nolan's chapters than on Edward's chapter. Even so, Edward probably gets more points for his contributions in 1-P alone (simply because he saves like what, 40 turns).

Nolan can do things in 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5. 1-6, 1-7, 1-8 and 1-E Part 3 that Edward can't, which is good.

Nolan's 1-1 and 1-2 are sorta like Eddie's 1-P but I agree for the rest.

[Radiant head]

I would say that Nolan's ability to tank 1-1 and 1-2 is something consistent with what he can do throughout Part 1, whereas with 1-P you're dealing with dumbed down enemy units to where this is the only chapter where Leonardo can double (without Lungsadh) and Edward can take more than three hits.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Radiant head