FE4 LTC [Theory and Planning Stage]

[Yojinbo]

Now that Marty's 0% LTC run is finished I'm going to reveal that I've started planning an LTC run with growths some time ago. I still gotta figure out a few [mostly technical] things first but I'll start test runs as soon as I finish my current FE4 draft. In the meantime I'm going to concern myself with the theoretical aspects of planning ahead.

I plan to do the following pairings in generation 1:

Aideen x Azel, Aideen x Claude; I need to pair up Aideen with Azel to obtain the Rescue staff in the beginning of Ch.4 but I also want to pair her up with Claude so Lana can inherit Rescue. That means that once Aideen obtains the Rescue Staff, Azel will get killed asap and Claude takes his place as Aideen's lover. I may need a jealousy set-up to get Aideen and Claude paired up without losing turns.

Lachesis x Beowulf; I really don't see a reason why I shouldn't do this pairing. There's plenty of time for it and Beowulf won't be really needed on the frontlines. I get two early Charismabots in gen 2 and can pass down stuff to them. Since Sigurd won't obtain the Silver Sword in this run, Delmud may even inherit a 50 kill Steel Sword and become a serviceable auxiliary unit.

Sylvia x Alec; I want Leen to get access to the Leg Ring and Knight Ring asap so she needs a lot of money. If I can pass down rings that nobody else needs [barrier, skill or shield?] she should be able to get at least the leg ring right away. Since a lot of money is needed to get all these expensive items onto your dancer, Leen's ability to inherit stuff is a lot more important than Laylea's Charisma. This pairing should be pretty easy to do, Sylvia will almost always be near the frontline and Alec will also tag along to get as many kills onto the Light Sword as possible.

Here's what I'm looking at regarding turn counts:

Prologue - 9 turns is the best possible afaik [4 to Jungby, 5 to Evans];

Chapter 1 - I'm looking at 19 turns here [4 to Genoa, 5 to Marpha, 10 to Verdane]. Getting from Marpha to Verdane in 10 turns may be a bit utopic but if I can get a very good setup at the spirit forest chokepoint I think it's possible. I may have to rig some continue procs or lovercrits with Cuan though

Chapter 2 - From looking at the map I'd say Sigurd is physically able to seize Agusty castle on the 22nd turn but I'm really not sure. Maybe some clever return/dance/warp setup could help to shave off another turn. Then again there are a couple of inconvenient choke points around Mackily and Agusty castle so it may take longer than that.

Chapter 3 - Marty cleared this chapter in 12 turns without growths and I've seen Mekkah do it in 11 turns with Master Knight Lachesis so I'm looking at a 11 turn clear for now. Having Lachesis promoted by the start of this chapter may require the Elite Ring and her clearing both arenas with prayer sword abuse.

Chapter 4 - Could be done in like 17 turns? I don't know, Silesia castle might be skippable and I don't actually need Holsety in this run so I'd rescuedance to Thove, return, wait until the "cutscene" is over and then head straight for Zaxon?

Chapter 5 - Marty did it in 13 turns, which seems like a reasonable benchmark. IIRC pairing up Claude and Fury cost him a turn or two but the same thing will likely happen with Claude and Aideen for me so 13 seems like a safe estimate.

Chapter 6 - I have no idea what the optimal turncount for this chapter is since I'm using Marty's run as my benchmark. His 20 is pretty high though because of his RN situation that I don't have to deal with [plus I have Libro!Lana to help if shit hits the fans]. I'm being consevative and estimate that about 2 or 3 turns can be cut off with growths [and maybe a rescue somewhere?] but I really have no idea yet.

Chapter 7 - This is where I can potentially cut down a massive amount of turns compared to Marty's run. Lana can rescue Celice through the desert. If I can get Leaf to promote here and Leen can afford the Leg Ring I can probably start rescuedancing already. I have idea how many turns it'll take overall but considering Marty cleared the chapter in 21 turns without rescue or growth I'm confident that it's possible to clear this chapter in 15 or 16 turns.

Chapter 8 - Should be super fast with full availability of rescue dance and OP Leaf/Celice, there's a chokepoint before Conote castle but I think 3 turns to Conote and like 4 turns to mease is possible. I don't need to recruit Hawk because Claude!Lana can fullfill all the staffbotting tasks I need to get done so I think a 7 or 8 turn clear is doable.

Chapter 9 - 8 turns is the absolute maximum here.

Chapter 10 - Marty does it in 10 turns but I think there's a turn or two that can be shaved off with growths so I'm going with 9 turns until somebody confirms that 8 turns is possible.

Final Chapter - Again using Marty's turn count as a benchmark and estimating a 9 turn clear

The overall turn count I'm having in mind would be somewhere slightly above 150 with most room for improvement being in Ch.6 and Ch.7 and possibly a few turns in the early chapters. The nicovideo 161 run is still the one with the lowest turncount so far but I couldn't find any videos except the final segment so I can't use that for my plannings. Any constructive input would be highly appreciated.

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

You can 17 turn Chapter 1 if I recall correctly. I think a 21 turn of chapter 2 might be possible, but I'm not completely sure. Chapter 10 and Endgame are both completable in 8 turns with growths. You save a turn in endgame because of the berserk staff and the ability to charge straight at the Weissen Ritter and two in chapter 10, one by being able to return and then warp Celice after the second castle (forgot its name) and one from being able to just bumrush the Rotten Ritter. I think that clear required Levin!Sety though (might have to re watch the video to make sure), which you won't have. Are you sure that you can 17 turn chapter 4? You won't have the rescue staff from the beginning with growths. And does killing and remarrying actually work? If so I'm tempted to redo my run... For chapter 6 I advise you give Celice the knight ring and after that it should just be a matter of counting squares, since with growths and a high kill hero sword he can probably rek everything really quickly. ~150 does seem like a fair estimate of what the lowest turn count possible is though.

Edit: I think a 10 turn of chapter 3 is also possible.

Edited March 19, 2015 by MartyTheDemonSlayer

[MacLovin]

what do you plan on doing with Tiltyu and Fury? Briggid probably takes too long to pair, unless you use jealousy. Idk about Ayra, since she's really difficult to screw over.

[momogeek2141]

Killing and remarrying doesn't work. You may as well just pair AideenxClaud from the start.

Also, I know you aren't getting Holsety, but there's nothing wrong in deploying Levin to Silesia anyways and then having him talk with Fury, no?

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

You'll want to do Aideen x Claude from the beginning then. You probably want Holsety to help kill Alvis in 8 turns, though if it costs turns and you think there's an alternate method you may want to reconsider. Also, if at all possible you should try and get Dew promoted for chapter 4. If you're foot slogging to Thove the extra movement he gets may save a turn.

[MacLovin]

out of curiosity, does the hero axe save any turns? I don't recall it doing so.

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

No, the hero axe would definitely cost quite a few turns.

[General Horace]

Depending on how lucky you're feeling with Cuan, you can recruit Jamka in chapter 1 too (in 17 turns). I honestly want to say the killer bow is required in chapter 2, but it might not be the case.

If you can get Dew the Light Sword and Elite Ring he can probably pick off a few kills in chapter 2 with it in the third castle (whoever gets it initially definately won't need it anyway) and then he can probably sell it at the third castle and Lachesis can pick it up and return spam or something. You should be able to promote her for chapter 3, although if you can't, promoted Alec/Noish with the light sword ORKO's the cross knights (they might need a couple magic procs or the light ring).

I think it's pretty important to have per promoted though, since if she is, she can warp Sigurd to the top castle (Madino?) after he seizes. Promoting Dew for chapter 4 will require some pretty hardcore arena abuse though, if he has the cash, buying the skill ring helps out a lot, since it gives him a much better chance to activate Sol.

16 turns in the lowest in chapter 6, even with rescue!Lana. Celice comes up one square short if you rescue him back and he goes south of where Arthur and Fee spawn :(

I'm not too sure on the other chapters, but it's definately possible to promote Leaf (it will be easier if you actually can get Nanna, since having her return Leaf means he gets to act out of the castle on turn 1. You can also rescue people over the water northwest of Lenster.

You probably don't need Holsety for Alvis, Aless almost ORKO's him with the Power Ring and continue procs.

If I think of other things i'll post them here too.

Edited March 19, 2015 by General Horace

[General Horace]

EDIT: I'm pretty sure you can 9 turn chapter 3, you need master knight lachesis, promoted Ethlin, knight ring Sylvia, and the Hero Lance on Fury.

EDIT EDIT: I hit quote instead of edit, oops double post.

I'm loading saves and seeing how fast it's theoretically possible to clear most castles by just moving units as quickly as possible, so I should be able to get estimates for the other chapters eventually. If you want saves for every castle i have them if you want them.

I don't think Holsety actually costs turn either, since Sigurd comes up one space short of seizing the last castle like a chump. I think it costs turn to get in gen 2 though, so it's probably not worth it anyway. I think Chapter 4 is 18 turns without rescue, and i'm pretty sure Chapter 5 will be 14 turns without rescue. Claude and Aideen can only fall in love by turn 9 at the earliest, so you won't be able to use rescue.

Edited March 19, 2015 by General Horace

[Refa]

I don't think Holsety actually costs turn either, since Sigurd comes up one space short of seizing the last castle like a chump.

This amused me way more than it should have. Petition to move Sigurd to Chump tier, worse than Ardan (who never comes up one space short of seizing).

[momogeek2141]

Well he can still do LevinxFury to pass down the Brave Lance to Fee, which can be useful vs the Jormung mage/Lenster.

[General Horace]

Actually, on second thought, Holsety might cost a turn, I don't think there's any way to kill the stoopid mage that blocks sigurd from seizing the castle. He should still do Levin!Fury regardless though.

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

Couldn't you have a unit like Midir kill the boss from 2 range then have Sigurd kill the Mage and Canto in for the seize?

[General Horace]

I don't think anybody can actually get in range (other than Fury, who has to kill the general at the other castle and can't be two places at once) but I could be wrong.

[sirmola]

have a link to a test run of a tas: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=280990#280990

Fair warning: The TAS and LTC goals tend to be similar, but are not always the same. Also, this TAS uses the rescue glitch.

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

If Sigurd can reach the gateshouldn't another 9 move unit be able to get within 2 squares of the boss from above? There's no rescue staff, right?

[General Horace]

Sigurd boosts himself way over the mountains because of the leg ring, and Sylvia can't actually get anybody closer because she sucks at moving over mountains.

Noish was danced on the last turn, and this is as far as he can reach. Sigurd can seize from where he is there, two turns after Silesia initially falls.

Ignore the fact i've already seized it obviously.

EDIT: yeah no rescue until it's irrelevant in gen 1.

Edited March 19, 2015 by General Horace

[Chiki]

I don't suggest doing an FE4 LTC. Years ago I saw a video of the Chapter 1 being done by some Japanese guy on Nicovideo, and he had some way of manipulating the RNG so that his Sigurd got to like 1 HP and he critkilled everything while every enemy missed on him. So unless you have some way of manipulating the RNG I wouldn't bother personally.

[Yojinbo]

OK so after reading through your posts here are a few thoughts:

- I will most likely go with Claude x Aideen in my first test run because if it doesn't turn out as well as I'd hope I can still kinda use Marty's run to get an idea on how Azel x Aideen could work out. I'm pretty sure Claude x Aideen is better though. We'll see.

- Holsety may not actually cost a turn if I can like proc charge/crithax with Midir's Killer bow against the boss at Silesia castle but I don't really see the point because Aless can take care of Alvis pretty nicely. I don't really see where I'd need Holsety elsewhere because I'll skip Arion completely and even then recruiting Levin!Sety probably costs another turn. The only option left would be Levin!Arthur which seems like a massive waste of time if I can just kill Alvis in one turn without Holsety.

- Getting Dew promoted by Ch.4 sounds like a rad idea in theory but I'm not sure if I can pull that one off. I'd need him to have the Light Sword, a Magic Ring and probably the Elite Ring by Ch.3 to get him into promotion range after clearing the Ch.4 arena. I do see the point of having him promoted though and the reward will most likely be worth it so I'll see what's possible.

- Will definitely aim to get Lachesis promoted after clearing the Arena in Ch.3. She'll likely need the Elite Ring for as long as possible which means that I'll probably have to give her a massive money dump right away. Either that or I have her pick up the Bargain Ring from that Village. It's definitely an important benchmark to reach though because I know that promoted Lachesis can save at least one turn in Ch.3, if not more.

- So the turn counts I'm currently looking at are 9 for the prologue, 17 for Ch.1, 22 for Ch.2, 9 or 10 for Ch.3 [9 turns could actually be possible if Sigurd obtains the leg ring from Pizarl and can ORKO the boss on Orgahill], 18 for Ch.4 and 14 for Ch.5. That'd add up to 89 turns in generation 1. Generation 2 has ~16 in Ch.6, probably the same amount in Ch.7, 7 or 8 for Ch.8, 8 for Ch.9, 10 and the Final chapter. That'd be 64 turns for gen 2 and 153 overall.

I'm loading saves and seeing how fast it's theoretically possible to clear most castles by just moving units as quickly as possible, so I should be able to get estimates for the other chapters eventually. If you want saves for every castle i have them if you want them.

I'm pretty dumb when it comes to saves but if you have video files to send me I'd be super thankful. I'll let you know which ones I need once I start actually playing.

Edit @ above; you can burn random numbers in the arena.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Yojinbo

[momogeek2141]

Holsety would be pretty good vs the Rotten Ritter. Low CoD too.

[sirmola]

I don't suggest doing an FE4 LTC. Years ago I saw a video of the Chapter 1 being done by some Japanese guy on Nicovideo, and he had some way of manipulating the RNG so that his Sigurd got to like 1 HP and he critkilled everything while every enemy missed on him. So unless you have some way of manipulating the RNG I wouldn't bother personally.

I is almost trivial to freely manipulate the rng without wasting turns in every chapter with an arena (so every chapter except for the prolog and 6), simply by having someone repeatedly enter and lose to burn rns. Additionaly, because characters can only move so many squares per turn, there is a theorectical minimum turn limit. I beleve that this can be reaced without significant rigging in prolog and 6 assuming growths.

Edited March 19, 2015 by sirmola

[Yojinbo]

I can't figure out how to clear Ch.1 in 17 turns without skipping Aira. Sigurd will have to move as far ahead as he can on every turn to reach Verdane castle on turn 17 and since Genoa castle is seized on the 4th turn, there's no way for me to bait Aira away far enough for Sigurd to not lose a turn by talking to her. That's just from looking at the map and counting the tiles, I haven't even thought about how I'll handle Jamka yet though the Killer Bow could be a big deal in Ch.2 and very useful in later chapters. I may actually need Aira for a jealousy setup and of course I really want that Hero Sword as well so I'd rather not skip her if I can help it.

I'm also trying to figure out the logistics of getting Lachesis promoted by Ch.3 while having Dew ready for promotion by Ch.4. The way I see it, Lachesis will need to clear both arenas with the Elite Ring which means that I need a money dump that gets her to 40K BEFORE she goes into the arena which is pretty much impossible because even if Dew obtains that amount of money he'd still need it for himself. Since Lachesis is physically incapable of reaching Voltz by the time I'm up at Anphony castle there's no way for her to get it directly. The only option that remains would be to get her the bargain ring, pick up some Villages in the area, return her home, buy the Elite Ring after obtaining enough money, have her clear the arena asap and then either heal on every turn possible in the home castle or Warp her up to Mackily asap to get some kills there. Then maybe if I have her clear the Arena in Ch.3 I can get her into promotion range, sell the elite ring to dew and give him as much exp as possible. Don't ask me how though.

[Mekkah]

How about having Dew pick up Ch2 villages and Return home instead?

[Yojinbo]

Dew will have visit up a couple of those villages anyway. Sylvia and Ethlin have to pass down some very expensive items, even a max money dump of their respective lover wouldn't be enough to take care of that.

But maybe if I abuse the prayer sword glitch Dew can clear the arenas of Ch.2, Ch.3 and Ch.4 which would probably be enough to have him promoted there.

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

You might want to watch the nicovideo play through, I remember they had him promoted by chapter 4. Can't remember how though, probably a lot of arena abuse.