What would FE be without RNG?

[Maritisa]

I've seen this debate come up numerous times before, where people complain about the RNG or randomness in Fire Emblem's systems.

The system has kind of improved over time, many of us know how stupidly unfair the 1RN system felt, so the hit rates are actually biased typically in the player's favor now... Of course, that's not to say there aren't plenty of bad examples of the use of this system, (Especially in romhacks) but I take them as examples of what NOT to do.

https://youtu.be/e31OSVZF77w

This is an Extra Credits video I've found fairly relevant to this whole debate. The Random Number Generator creates a similar state to the type of "Perfect Imbalance" described, with unexpected outcomes forcing players to adapt their strategies, both in a positive and negative way. I personally believe that it's one of the most defining features of the series, mechanically; being a source of "Perfect Imbalance" so there is typically no explicit and fixed strategy to victory. Getting a crit or hit you didn't expect on player phase can be very different from on enemy phase... I think a lot of the complaints actually come from things happening during Enemy Phase, where the player gets no opportunity to react if their bad luck puts them in danger. Or Ally Team AI being stupid...

But my opinions aside, I've been wondering how people would design a FE game without RNG. I don't mean "absolute" battles, where everyone hits all the time, or somesuch. I mean mechanically, how would you change the game if you wanted to remove the aspect of luck entirely, yet still create an engaging game that lived up to the FE name?

Or, how would you revise the mechanics of the game to make the RNG less ruthless and unfair during situations like enemy phase, where the player has no ability to counter-strategize?

I'm not asking this to start a debate, rather, I want to know what people think on the whole concept of "Luck" in FE. I'm very curious as to what people would do with this central mechanic if they had any say about its function.

[47948201]

It's not hard to find proof of my dislike of RNG, but I've grown more accepting of it over time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR-EuyU2hb8
Here's a Super Bunnyhop video, where the relevant point is about 1:45 in. It's the nature of RPGs to not be able to control the outcomes of situations, but rather make decisions that increase the probability of a favorable (in one way or another) outcome. That's what makes FE a tactical RPG, rather than a pure tactics game.

Having said that, luck shouldn't be as big of a factor as it often is, particularly in fangames. The key thing to remember is that the player should be able to make decisions that give themselves a better chance at what they want. If an enemy has a Killing Edge, the player can approach head-on, maximizing the chance of a failure, or use any number of other tactics (units with high luck, defense, range, etc.). It's the player's job to strategize during their phase to account for the enemy phase, if the map is well-put together. IS is generally smart enough to not give enemies Killer Fire and Vantage, but fans don't always realize it's their job to make up for the low points of the system they're working with.

Just because I called it a "low point" just now doesn't mean RNG is bad; it's just something that needs to be well-accounted for, as it isn't in, say, L+.

You could make alternatives, like Narikiri Dungeon 3's use of the normal real-time Tales battle system (which is itself already more RPG-like than a twitchy action game) in an SRPG framework.

...Uhhh yeah I'm losing my train of thought guess I'll go eat more then maybe be back later *shot*

[Radiant head]

I guess one thing I like about RNG is that it makes the games more playable. A unit can turn out completely differently under different circumstances, and I'm always curious to find out how.

[Topazd]

On top of the aforementioned benefits, the RNG being such an integral component in the FE formula allows for strats to be evaluated and 'ranked' by their reliability. The absence of such variables would only result in rather static playthroughs, in my eyes.

[Irysa]

There are always ways to minimise risk and maximise reliability in any game, even on the highest difficulties. There are a few outliers of things you just can't work around (such as Chapter 1 of H5 SD), but even a mode like Lunatic+ has a semblance of reliablity in terms of strategies that can be employed successfully.

RNG can go against you but planning to minimise that risk and making the educated decisions about whether to take a risk or not is something that is very important to the series.

[chococoke]

I can think of no way that you can just remove the RNG and expect to have a working game of ANY sort, much less a strategy game like FE. Most games other games involve RNGs of some sort, but are just a lot more discreet about their usage

[Magical Glace]

I can think of no way that you can just remove the RNG and expect to have a working game of ANY sort, much less a strategy game like FE. Most games other games involve RNGs of some sort, but are just a lot more discreet about their usage

This basically, RPGs, including Strategy RPGs, run on RNGs. FE wouldn't be FE without luck.

I can say the exact same thing about Pokémon, Dragon Quest, etc., playing them without RNs just wouldn't be the same.

[RJWalker]

Boring.

[arvilino]

It would become very puzzle-like. I think a working Fire Emblem game without any RNG would focus more around classes with fixed statistics being strict counters to each other.

Edited March 25, 2015 by arvilino

[Skynstein]

It would be a step farther from "RPG" I guess.

It would become very puzzle-like. I think a working Fire Emblem game without any RNG would focus more around classes with fixed statistics being strict counters to each other.

In short, more like a strategy game than an RPG.

[Paper Dragon]

A Fire Emblem without RNG could be interesting with more focus on classes and countering your enemy's strategy rather than praying that you'll dodge the big scary brigand with the steel axe. You'd have to plan ahead instead of taking a chance. You'd know that the bandit is going to kill your cavalier, and you can create a counter strategy.

That's my idea anyway.

However, RNG chaos is what makes Fire Emblem and other video games fun. Even if it works against you.

[omglmaowtf]

In short, more like a strategy game than an RPG.

You mean like Advance Wars? i.e. Someone can do an LTC, post a turn-by-turn strategy & anyone that follows it gets the exact same result.

RNG plays such a big part in FE mechanics it can sometimes feel more like a diceroll/cointoss casino game than a tactics game.

Certain things like stats gain on level up: the player has zero control over it other than bench Miss everything-four-stats-below-average & use another character

[Snowy_One]

Well, it would mean I could stop sacrificing my neighbors firstborn children to Anna in the hopes of getting perfect level-ups and avoiding 1/1 criticals... But that's half the fun of Fire Emblem in the first place.

[47948201]

Certain things like stats gain on level up: the player has zero control over it other than bench Miss everything-four-stats-below-average & use another character

(that's the point though? You can continue using a suboptimal character which makes the game more challenging (well, that's situational) or swap them out for one you may never have gotten to use in a RNG-less game. It's unlikely enough that all your mages will get RNG-screwed, but if they do, you have the tools (Light Brand, Hammer, etc.) to get through a nice challenge and have an interesting experience to talk about and remember after.)

[Gradivus.]

yeah you can very certainly get by if units get screwed, provided 1-3 solid units to carry you. you'll have more difficulty ORKOing enemies and will need to gang up instead, but it's not a playthrough killer in most cases.

[DomesticHausCat]

I honestly think that the RNG has gotten worse over time. The numbers shouldn't choose an average between two numbers giving your characters an advantage. No man, an 80% chance of hitting your foe should be exactly 80%. Not what 80% feels like. That's the thing about chance, it is unpredictable. That's why I think the RNGs of older games actually feel more legit.

I play a lot of dungeons and dragons to, where you roll d20s to hit guys all day. And yeah, sometimes you just don't roll high enough somedays and can't hit shit. It happens. In Fire Emblem though maybe it's just one guy that can't hit after a couple of rounds or something.

In these kinds of games you've got to employ a viable strategy with minimal risk. And then commit to it. Sometimes things don't go your way though, that's war for you. Been that way since war games at the beginning of the century really.

Edited April 12, 2015 by DomesticHausCat

[Sniper Knight]

All in all, I'd say that RNG is a pretty important facet of Fire Emblem. Without it, there wouldn't be nearly enough variation. Honestly, half the charm of FE is it's luck based RNs. True, there is some BS that tends to happen, and I'm not the only one who ends up screaming and raging when 90% chance misses (which is even more frustrating if you're playing an FE game with 2 RNs and you end up missing on a ~99% chance). But it also forces you consider your decisions more carefully, and requires you to actually use tactics, which is fairly rare in this genre. Plus, the games would be incredibly boring without RNG. It also raises the replay value of FE, which is already pretty high. As previously mentioned, most units can turn out very differently, and you're inspired to play the game again using different units.

[Rapier]

It would be a step farther from "RPG" I guess.

In short, more like a strategy game than an RPG.

Actually, strategy games rely on luck. The first strategy games ever made (the ones used by the military to teach tactics) relied a lot on luck. It is a predominant factor in the genre of strategy games, a luck-less strategy game is like a stat-less RPG.

I like the RNG as it is. FE isn't as insane as Wesnoth, nor as precise as Red Alert. The perfect balance, imo.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Rapier

[omglmaowtf]

What about those who want to do a data transfer from PoR to RD, where the whole point is certain level20 promoted units having capped certain stats by endgame? If the only stat gains for those units were from their promotion, the data transfer attempt is utterly fucked because there's no infinite farming of stat boosters in FE9

I feel as a whole the FE series overdid the reliance on RNG. Might as well replace every chapter with a large coin that say "win chapter" on one side & "game over" on the other; and a 'flip coin' button.

[Roivann]

I feel as a whole the FE series overdid the reliance on RNG. Might as well replace every chapter with a large coin that say "win chapter" on one side & "game over" on the other; and a 'flip coin' button.

Overstatement of the century, if I'm interpreting your post correctly. While RNG does play a part in every strategy, there are clearly some setups which work much more reliably than others -I mean, just look at all the LTCs on this site. That's where player agency comes in. Making the optimal moves to reduce the risk of failure. If every chapter is a 50/50 win/lose shot, then maybe that's on your own strategies, not the game.

[Elibean Spaceman]

The games would probably be easy without RNG.

[Ayra]

Langrisser is my favorite strategy-rpg game serie and it has minimal RNG. There's a very slight variance in battle damage and some random in the status effects land rate but that's it. When selecting your class change, you know ahead of time that you'll get like +8 attack damage, +4 unit damage, ect during your next 10 levels so your level ups are fixed.

The replay value comes from:

1) Each character has their own class tree where you pick between two classes, and there's 3 promotion levels which gives you (So you have 4 different ending classes for each character). The path you used to reach the class affects your stats, skills and unit selection too (So say a unit is at second promotion Sea Captain, your unit will have different stats if you went Fighter->Sea Captain than Gladiator-> Sea Captain for example). On top of that, a class can be slightly different for one character than the other.

So sending your characters on different class paths can lead to an extremely different playthroughs strategy-wise.

2) Some Langrisser games offers extremely different story paths. For example, in Der Langrisser, you can branch out to go on the Light path, the Empire path, the Chaos path (you side with monsters) or the Independent path... And there's even some path selection inside each path.

This means that even though there's nearly no RNG in the game, it's extremely replayable.

Fire Emblem is all about pushing the odds in your favor. It's kind of like poker or those playable card games: You are never free from the influence of luck, but you can stack the odds in your favor by playing or preparing well. It's pretty fun and entertaining (I adore Fire Emblem), but if I was forced to pick the Fire Emblem rng-based setup or the Langrisser no-rng setup, I'd take the Langrisser one...

But fortunately I don't have to pick just one so I can just enjoy both styles :)

[sirmola]

I've played some shining force (the gamegear one on the 3ds app store), and it's low rng. I belive that levil ups are determenistic, and hit rates tend to be higher. That being said, you can only move characters when they come up in the turn order, which is by character and is not displayed. Add to this the fact that the game does not give you enough info to tell attack damage at a glance like FE does, and i found that FE actualy makes me feel more in control of battle outcomes, despite shining force theoretically being less rng dependent. I actualy might do an lp over the summer. You'd be surprised how this game does things like make archers awesome.

[Ayra]

I've played some shining force (the gamegear one on the 3ds app store), and it's low rng. I belive that levil ups are determenistic, and hit rates tend to be higher. That being said, you can only move characters when they come up in the turn order, which is by character and is not displayed. Add to this the fact that the game does not give you enough info to tell attack damage at a glance like FE does, and i found that FE actualy makes me feel more in control of battle outcomes, despite shining force theoretically being less rng dependent. I actualy might do an lp over the summer. You'd be surprised how this game does things like make archers awesome.

There is a Shining Force on the 3DS?? Nice! I didn't know that until I read your post! I actually haven't played that one yet, but I'll definitively be giving it a spin. Shining Force 1 was good, and Shining Force 2 was simply amazing. It's a bit on the simplistic side (even more than FE) but it was a ton of fun. This Gamegear one doesn't exactly look as good, but..... At least good enough to give it a try and hopefully be pleasantly surprised!

Regarding RNG, I think Shining Force 2 actually had a fair amount of RNG. If I remember well, the levels still had some random (For example, this character gets from 5 up to 7 attack power in a level), but I might be wrong. Double attacks and counterattacks were all random based on the character class (Monk Sarah might have 12.5% to double attack and 10% to counter-attack as a non-factual example) and I think dodge was the same. As were all status effects, of course.

[Dunal]

The games would probably be easy without RNG.

No, the complete opposite is true.

RNG is always favourable to the player by default and enemies hitting 100% of the time is far far more game changing then your units hitting 100%, because the latter tends to be close to the case already.

Fixed growths would mean there is no chance to have an uber blessed unit who can solo, so based on the EXP formula you can guarantee difficulty (assuming other factors of course). FE games are typically easy when you pick 10-15 units, and then cherry pick them half way through the game based on who's grown better. It's a typical thing.

No crits would weaken the player much more than the enemy, for obvious reasons.

So within context of the numbers/stats the series has had in the past -- it would be far more difficult.

People in this community cry and moan about missing attacks at high % and enemy 1% crits etc... But let's face it, enemies hate the RNG far more than we do. In an alternative universe everyone hates this series because their Batta's can't hit Lyn worth a damn.

Edited April 26, 2015 by DLuna