To balance between footies against mounted & fliers

[omglmaowtf]

A common thing in the FE games is that horse & flier units will most times pull ahead in the exp/level race vs. footies due to reaching enemies or chapter objectives first. This is especially exacerbated in FE9 & the larger maps of FE4.

So should IS balance FEif out by equipping more enemies with anti-horse/anti-flier weapons, at least in higher difficulties?

(And I don't mean just bows & their only-2-range disadvantage during EP)

Edited March 27, 2015 by omglmaowtf

[X-Naut]

More anti-cavalry weapons would help, but there are other things they could do. For example, dismounting takes away the main thing mounted units have going for them, and penalties would put them below foot units. If you want to go further a +1 Move bonus could be given to all foot units (bar dismounted classes) on indoor and urban maps.

[Ownagepuffs]

You don't need to throw over 9000 anti horse weapons around. All that does is make the enemy a pain in the ass. Just do what FE5/10 did. Have a mov penalty indoors and have more maps where mounts can't just pull ahead.

FE4 C3, RD 3-9 and 4-4 are by far some of the most well designed maps in the series. In the case of FE4 C3, there was enough going on that foots could contribute compared to the horses. Same for FE4 C2 but fuck C2. 3-9 and 4-4 are designed in a way that allows foots to take a different route which lets them keep up.

[Moishe Oofnik]

Just make everyone get ponies

Problem solved

Edited March 27, 2015 by TTPK_Tal

[MoonlitSonata]

I like the idea of a mounted movement penalty indoors. Like obviously a horse is going to have issues charging through narrow corridors and turning tight enough if an enemy were to jump behind a wall or something. Giving foot units a movement bonus indoors might make it a bit difficult to win if an indoor chapter had a turn limit though, especially if you've neglected to train up footed units that aren't your Lord (assuming s/he's a footed unit.)

Meanwhile for flyers I'd say instead of making them have a movement penalty have them dismount indoors. After all, unless if you are in a great hall-esque environment, those wingspans of wyverns and pegasi seem far wider than what the average hallway has. Besides, indoors there's not enough room to fly about!

[lpmeteora27]

I like the idea of a mounted movement penalty indoors. Like obviously a horse is going to have issues charging through narrow corridors and turning tight enough if an enemy were to jump behind a wall or something. Giving foot units a movement bonus indoors might make it a bit difficult to win if an indoor chapter had a turn limit though, especially if you've neglected to train up footed units that aren't your Lord (assuming s/he's a footed unit.)

Meanwhile for flyers I'd say instead of making them have a movement penalty have them dismount indoors. After all, unless if you are in a great hall-esque environment, those wingspans of wyverns and pegasi seem far wider than what the average hallway has. Besides, indoors there's not enough room to fly about!

Agreed with all of it except for the last bit.

Dismounting them indoors? How would that work exactly? Would they be able to use the same weapons? Would they be counted as an aerial unit and take standard bonus damage? I just think it contradicts the movement bonus subtraction if they're going to be footies for that battle anyhow.

[Saladus]

1. Dismounting.

2. No doubling.

3. Maps that don't encourage having higher movement.

4. Tweak their stats.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Saladus

[Radiant head]

Bring back ledges!

Though that doesn't hurt fliers.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Radiant head

[Ownagepuffs]

No doubling is fucking retarded why do people suggest that. Stat tweaking is unnecessary. Dismounting is also meh just reduce their indoor movement.

The only one that makes sense is #3. Creating incentive is important. See 4-4. Nothing had to be done to mounts to make you want to use infantry. Even if mounts did have their full movement, your infantry would still be progressing at a very comparable pace.

[Saladus]

No doubling is fucking retarded why do people suggest that.

To nerf mounts.

Stat tweaking is unnecessary.

Mounts are ''broken'' in combat thanks to their stats with movement. Addressing them is an option.

Dismounting is also meh just reduce their indoor movement.

There were plenty of mounted soldiers who dismounted for foot combat, or when invading a fortification. Look up Agincourt.

The only one that makes sense is #3. Creating incentive is important. See 4-4. Nothing had to be done to mounts to make you want to use infantry. Even if mounts did have their full movement, your infantry would still be progressing at a very comparable pace.

Or, you can have that, with the other suggestions.

[omega zero]

Doubling is extremely powerful. For little to no cost, you can double your damage, your odds of crits/skill activation/dual strikes. I guess this mechanic was changed from a skill to a general ability to give the player an advantage, kinda like true hit? After all, most of the time the player's units will be faster than AI units. I think removing doubling would change a lot more than the effectiveness of mounts. It's too big of a change if the goal is just to nerf mounts. That said, I wouldn't mind if it were changed back into a skill, or had a bigger threshold/cost.

Edit: Oh, I thought the removal of doubling meant removal from all classes, not just from mounted units.

Or, you can have that, with the other suggestions.

If smart map/campaign design can be used to encourage more thoughtful/varied team building, then why would the devs need additional changes/complexities?

Edited March 28, 2015 by omega zero

[NekoKnight]

A common thing in the FE games is that horse & flier units will most times pull ahead in the exp/level race vs. footies due to reaching enemies or chapter objectives first. This is especially exacerbated in FE9 & the larger maps of FE4.

So should IS balance FEif out by equipping more enemies with anti-horse/anti-flier weapons, at least in higher difficulties?

(And I don't mean just bows & their only-2-range disadvantage during EP)

You don't need to throw over 9000 anti horse weapons around. All that does is make the enemy a pain in the ass. Just do what FE5/10 did. Have a mov penalty indoors and have more maps where mounts can't just pull ahead.

FE4 C3, RD 3-9 and 4-4 are by far some of the most well designed maps in the series. In the case of FE4 C3, there was enough going on that foots could contribute compared to the horses. Same for FE4 C2 but fuck C2. 3-9 and 4-4 are designed in a way that allows foots to take a different route which lets them keep up.

A combination of these options. There are far too few anti-cavalry weapons in the game. Archers can be used to balance fliers.

For indoor maps, you can limit movement of mounted units and for outdoor maps, limit them using terrain.

[Ownagepuffs]

If you have proper tuning, you don't need an arbitrary limitation like removing their ability to double. That is really one of the worst ideas I've heard.

The problem is not that mounts are broken, it's that there is a lack of incentive to use infantry. Creating incentive throup map design will do much more for infantry than giving mounts 9001 needless nerfs.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Radiant head]

Removing doubling would just make me not want to use mounted units at all.

[Irysa]

If you have proper tuning, you don't need an arbitrary limitation like removing their ability to double. That is really one of the worst ideas I've heard.

It heavily depends on the game's design. FE has made doubling a pretty big deal for a long time but there's no reason the game can't be more accomodated around the concept of rather a lot of units being incapable of doubling. Cut HP values down significantly, make doubling require a much higher threshold of AS advantage, make the damage on the second attack be halved, etc. Although that would be quite an overhaul.

This would also have the side effect of inadvertedly buffing myrms and knights I guess? I mean really, speed is just way too important a stat in the series I think overall.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Irysa

[-Cynthia-]

Well, just in general foot units could have better combat than mounted units and the game would have to be hard enough to make this difference relevant.

Edited March 28, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[Ownagepuffs]

It heavily depends on the game's design. FE has made doubling a pretty big deal for a long time but there's no reason the game can't be more accomodated around the concept of rather a lot of units being incapable of doubling. Cut HP values down significantly, make doubling require a much higher threshold of AS advantage, make the damage on the second attack be halved, etc. Although that would be quite an overhaul.

This would also have the side effect of inadvertedly buffing myrms and knights I guess? I mean really, speed is just way too important a stat in the series I think overall.

This falls under proper tuning, and is a game overhaul. This is a good idea, since it affects more than just mounts. Straight up removing the mounts' ability to double is just silly.

If you want to experience FE in a way where doubling is not ubiquitous, FE4 Gen 1 has got you covered

[arvilino]

If you have proper tuning, you don't need an arbitrary limitation like removing their ability to double. That is really one of the worst ideas I've heard.

The problem is not that mounts are broken, it's that there is a lack of incentive to use infantry. Creating incentive throup map design will do much more for infantry than giving mounts 9001 needless nerfs.

They aren't broken but across the series personally I don't think they've often been given stats appropriate to the fact they have that movement advantage. For example Cavaliers/Paladins HP/STR/DEF/SPD combination frequently lets them accomplish a large range of roles that more specialised units can only do one of, frequently their other stats can have them end up performing better than the specialised class(e.g. higher speed preventing them being doubled, or allowing them to double which can make them better damage dealers than Fighters and better Tanks than Knights) ontop of higher movement.

The higher movement gives them more flexibility and greater ability to perform multiple roles or reach the most important positions to fufil those roles than the specialised foot units. Ideally the difference between class/characters stats should inherently incentivise foot units because there should be classes(and not just weapons) that Cavaliers/Paladins can't handle well.

If maps have to be designed specifically to be an incentive for foot units I think it suggests that mounted units themselves might be able to do too much.

[X-Naut]

I like the idea of a mounted movement penalty indoors. Like obviously a horse is going to have issues charging through narrow corridors and turning tight enough if an enemy were to jump behind a wall or something. Giving foot units a movement bonus indoors might make it a bit difficult to win if an indoor chapter had a turn limit though, especially if you've neglected to train up footed units that aren't your Lord (assuming s/he's a footed unit.)

Meanwhile for flyers I'd say instead of making them have a movement penalty have them dismount indoors. After all, unless if you are in a great hall-esque environment, those wingspans of wyverns and pegasi seem far wider than what the average hallway has. Besides, indoors there's not enough room to fly about!

What maps have a turn limit stringent enough that not moving your full distance every turn results in a game over? And the same could be said about giving mounted units a meaningful movement penalty, or having an outdoor map with a time limit.

[Ownagepuffs]

They aren't broken but across the series personally I don't think they've often been given stats appropriate to the fact they have that movement advantage. For example Cavaliers/Paladins HP/STR/DEF/SPD combination frequently lets them accomplish a large range of roles that more specialised units can only do one of, frequently their other stats can have them end up performing better than the specialised class(e.g. higher speed preventing them being doubled, or allowing them to double which can make them better damage dealers than Fighters and better Tanks than Knights) ontop of higher movement.

The higher movement gives them more flexibility and greater ability to perform multiple roles or reach the most important positions to fufil those roles than the specialised foot units. Ideally the difference between class/characters stats should inherently incentivise foot units because there should be classes(and not just weapons) that Cavaliers/Paladins can't handle well.

If maps have to be designed specifically to be an incentive for foot units I think it suggests that mounted units themselves might be able to do too much.

Infantry can do almost everything the mounts can. They just take longer to do it. This is not the mounts doing too much, it's infantry doing too little.

I'm gonna bring up 3-9 and 4-4 ad nauseum. Mounts can do everything they usually can. Doubling, rescuing, ORKOing, whatever. Their strengths still shine through. However, the maps are not so straightforward that mounts eclipse infantry in performance. Ledges and alternate routes let the infantry contribute at a comparable pace.

FE4 C3 has you being attacked from more than 1 side. This allows everyone to contribute to the overall completion of the map. Complaints about mounts in FE4 are overblown anyway but that's besides the point.

[Vascela]

Ledges, Shove, Terrain.

Make forests (or whatever) only affect cavalry (or double/triple the movement penalty). Make fliers have penalty in fog.

Removing the ability to double is just a gut to the throat. You don't want to make mounts blow ass, you want to make the alternatives worth your while. Will mounts still outpace your units in routes where there is no movement penalty? Sure, but the opportunity to perform better with a grounded unit should be available.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Ledges were a great thing and as for terrain, I think Mountains/Hills are severely underused tiles. Since unpromoted cavalry can't traverse it, I feel like it could be used like ledges to provide outdoor shortcuts that only foot units have access to. While this wouldn't inhibit flier movement, it would be easy enough to place enemy Archers on that path. The Mountain tiles would only wider that gap between the advantages foot units have over fliers there because said foot units would pick up a massive defensive bonus from the tiles. If that still isn't enough, have the Mountain path a really short gauntlet (since Mountains kinda hose foot unit movement range too) covered by a couple ballistae.

[Jedi]

And people continue to think having millions of archers will nerf fliers. Get real they will dominate regardless if there are tons of archers or not, due to their ridiculous movement, stats and such.

The one fe game that managed to do fliers to a not insane degree was fe4. Fury and Fee were average units and couldn't do everything.

[RedEyedDrake]

I think making it so that infantry classes have noticeably higher overall growths than cavalry and fliers outside a one or maybe two stats should do the trick. For example, if one were to take three characters with indentical character specific growths and make them a mercenary, a cavalier and a pegasus knight have it so the pegasus knight has the highest speed and resistance growths of the three (maybe in magic as well but since all three are physical attackers let's ignore that stat for the sake of discussion) while the mercenary has the highest growths in everything else. This way the cavalier and the flier will usually have lower overall stats but will enjoy a movement stat of, say, 9 in open terrain and 8 squares respectively with that number increasing to 10 for both upon promotion (with the paladin still depending on open terrain, of course) while the mercenary will have higher overall stats and will be less dependent on open terrain than the cavalier/paladin but will also only have a movement stat of 7 that increases to 8 upon promotion.

How does that sound?

[Jedi]

The problem is in the end. Speed is the money maker stat, whatever units have a good speed base and growth will out perform most other units.