The issue of incest in FE...

[Swirl-Theory]

the fact that you believe this is so common to be absolutely pervasive reflects rather strongly on your own biases

EDIT: wait shit I was wrong my bad

fe6, 7, 10, and 13 all have unavoidable, canonical twincest

sorry about that; you win

I'd really rather not argue since that wasn't my intention, but if it was as you said, then I wouldn't be so worried about this issue affecting a game that I want to enjoy. If you'd look around you'll see that many anime have this element in it, even ones that I wouldn't expect (an example would be Kyoukai no Kanata from Kyoto Animation. It seemed like a nice enough series until the siscon showed up out of nowhere.) I don't know where you're getting all this "projecting" from.

And...what?

[The Geek]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who never saw Ephraim and Eirika's relationship as romantic/sexual.

[nordopolica]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who never saw Ephraim and Eirika's relationship as romantic/sexual.

I never did until I saw other people on the internet read way too much into it and started to ship it romantically. Kinda scared me off it.

As a 13 year old playing it I absolutely adored their relationship and how much they loved and respected each other but as I got older and interacted with the fandom...well. It's sad that it had to be turned into such a thing that turned me off it a little.

But on the topic of outright incest? I think people are being too critical of OP for being fearful or uncomfortable, but yeah this thread has kind of put my mind at ease, too. I suppose I was just remembering back to FE4 a little too much.

[Swirl-Theory]

I never did until I saw other people on the internet read way too much into it and started to ship it romantically. Kinda scared me off it.

As a 13 year old playing it I absolutely adored their relationship and how much they loved and respected each other but as I got older and interacted with the fandom...well. It's sad that it had to be turned into such a thing that turned me off it a little.

But on the topic of outright incest? I think people are being too critical of OP for being fearful or uncomfortable, but yeah this thread has kind of put my mind at ease, too. I suppose I was just remembering back to FE4 a little too much.

Agreed! When I saw all of the fanart and people's opinions on their relationship, it was pretty disturbing to me as well. I guess my fears stem from the fact that (aside from its addition in recent anime) people will take anything and twist it around to suit their fetishes.

[euklyd]

2. As far as I am reading other people's opinions and speculations, I still have my doubts the MU is full blood related to any characters of the game. He/She could be an illegitimate child or even fully adopted by both families and the "speculated" story can still run without any problem.

how much does this really help on the Nohr side of things tho

like "wow I'm not actually blood related to the people I've grown up with as siblings my entire life; awesome, now we can bang"

that seems kind of dubious

EDIT: I'm not actually sure if that's anything like the line of thought that you were proposing; if not then my b

I'd really rather not argue since that wasn't my intention, but if it was as you said, then I wouldn't be so worried about this issue affecting a game that I want to enjoy. If you'd look around you'll see that many anime have this element in it, even ones that I wouldn't expect (an example would be Kyoukai no Kanata from Kyoto Animation. It seemed like a nice enough series until the siscon showed up out of nowhere.) I don't know where you're getting all this "projecting" from.

And...what?

the use of the word "projecting" was somewhere between a joke and hyperbole

sorry that I didn't exactly make that clear

that being said, I do not believe that incestuous themes in mainstream anime are as pervasive as you seem to believe they are

beyond all that, tho, nintendo likes to think of itself as a family friendly company - they generally hold themselves to pretty high ~moral standards~

the fact of the matter is that fire emblem just has not had actual incest anything in canon since FE4; there's essentially no reason to think that's gonna change

re: "...what?" - did you play FE6 / 7 / 10 / 13? the homoerotic subtext between the bandit twins was not exactly subtle

I'm pretty sure it's the case for all four but I can't say that with certainty

EDIT: (making things clear: I was making a joke)

Edited April 6, 2015 by Euklyd

[Swirl-Theory]

how much does this really help on the Nohr side of things tho

like "wow I'm not actually blood related to the people I've grown up with as siblings my entire life; awesome, now we can bang"

that seems kind of dubious

EDIT: I'm not actually sure if that's anything like the line of thought that you were proposing; if not then my b

the use of the word "projecting" was somewhere between a joke and hyperbole

sorry that I didn't exactly make that clear

that being said, I do not believe that incestuous themes in mainstream anime are as pervasive as you seem to believe they are

beyond all that, tho, nintendo likes to think of itself as a family friendly company - they generally hold themselves to pretty high ~moral standards~

the fact of the matter is that fire emblem just has not had actual incest anything in canon since FE4; there's essentially no reason to think that's gonna change

re: "...what?" - did you play FE6 / 7 / 10 / 13? the homoerotic subtext between the bandit twins was not exactly subtle

I'm pretty sure it's the case for all four but I can't say that with certainty

It's alright, I'm pretty bad at being able to tell whether something was said as a joke or not.

But on the 'incest popularity' thing, I guess I'm just referring to when it's added in as a joke, not full blown incest. But I do agree that the mainstream shows like kids shows or things like Bleach (and even that had some slight subtext), Naruto/One Piece etc. usually avoid this.

Agreed as well, Nintendo's reputation is something that's really great since it assures there will be minimal "controversy" surrounding its games. Hearing that also makes me feel better about the subject, so thanks too.

About the bandit twins though...I guess I didn't even pay attention to that honestly.

[euklyd]

I mean if FE14 has actual incestuous undertones to any of the characters I'll be as annoyed as anyone, to be sure
but I just don't see it happening; "haha incest" is basically entirely an FE fandom running joke, not something that actually happens in the games

[spoiler=I feel like this is getting kind of off-topic]the bandit twins are basically just a running gag every time they appear
some mix of being an ugly joke and a "hah, gaaaaaay" joke ;/
...and then incest thrown in for good measure

so.

anyways imma sleep, so I won't respond to anything for a while

[Ganhur]

how much does this really help on the Nohr side of things tho

like "wow I'm not actually blood related to the people I've grown up with as siblings my entire life; awesome, now we can bang"

that seems kind of dubious

EDIT: I'm not actually sure if that's anything like the line of thought that you were proposing; if not then my b

Have you ever debate that you are a child of you own family? It can get weird like quite quick.

A: I am the child of my mother who inherited hers and her husband' blood because she gave birth to me.

B: Objection! You have no memory or DVD of such event. Such fact can be easily be fabricated.

A: She has raised me for 20 years. Therefore I am the child she gave birth to.

B: My adopted child is 20 years old and he is not the child I gave birth to.

A: Mom told me so.

B: That's not an argument!

and blah blah blah... until the DNA test, which depends on culture and scientific knowledge, you may never reach the truth whether you are the legitimate child of the family or not.

What I meant was, the MU could be given a false belief so that he/she is tied to a bloodline. So as of now, there is no certainty that the current MU's background is correct, where it states MU is blood related to Black.

Plus, didn't someone say the writer's forte is Mystery. I would not be surprised if this twist is put in.

"wow I'm not actually blood related to the people I've grown up with as siblings my entire life; awesome, now we can bang"

Well, I doubt it's appropriate on White side either.

"wow. now that I'm adopted. Let's bang and call me Onii-chan"

Not incest but quite disturbing...

Edited April 6, 2015 by Ganhur

[Magical CC]

I am cool with incest in fiction works. And it's not like it's not like that in real life. People were having fun with their relatives like rabbit in the old time. Not that they cared anyway. FE's fantasy medieval can goes full force with incest and it's not even out of ordinary. Zoroastrianism kings can marry his daughter and they even consider it as a holy action, so does many other religions and cultures.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Magical Amber

[Book Bro]

I think the outcome that makes the most sense is paired endings, though.

I mean you could probably have paired endings for siblings that don't work out to "and then they banged the end"

like in FE8 Eirika and Ephraim's paired ending was working closely together to rebuild Renais

there have been plenty of platonic paired endings in previous FE games, after all

I mean if FE14 has actual incestuous undertones to any of the characters I'll be as annoyed as anyone, to be sure

but I just don't see it happening; "haha incest" is basically entirely an FE fandom running joke, not something that actually happens in the games

Hey, get out of my head. But yeah this is exactly how I feel about this. Aside from the one explicit case of incest in FE4 (and some pairings in 4/13 being between less direct relatives) it's mostly a case of fans taking it more seriously than it's intended. Characters like Lachesis and Priscilla strike me as just really admiring their brothers, almost childishly so, but I never thought they actually wanted to do the nasty with them.

That being said it wouldn't bother me if it was part of the plot again as it would probably be treated seriously/maturely. But I doubt it will appear.

[goodperson707]

I seem to remember Lachesis being intended as the mother of Ares, and she has the manga going for her. But still that was fire emblem 4. Prciclia and others seem to just childish admiration. A childhood marriage promise doesn't mean anything, i talked about marrying my cousin/ best friend. at the age of 3ish4 until my parents said you cant marry cousins... So when i was 4ish5 i had a wedding with my neighbour. So what?

[Anacybele]

You clearly forgotten how in Awakening we can hook up a niece/uncle relationship through a Lucina!Morgan to her uncle Inigo fathered by Chrom. Incest at it finest baby!

I consider those things to just be oversights by the developers and localization team, honestly. The only FE I can think of that has intended incest is FE4 from what I know.

I don't like incest myself though, I stay away from it if I can. So I hope I can do the same with this new game (give us a title already, NoA. xP).

Edited April 6, 2015 by Anacybele

[Tsuky]

OP, I'm with you here, not a fan of incest (even subtle ones). But from what I've seen, many "incestuous relationships" stem from fandoms reading too much into things (which does annoy me) or crazy shippers in the fandom being their usual selves and shipping just about everyone together (in general, not FE specifically). So I wouldn't worry too much about it :)

[eclipse]

And we're assuming that it isn't possible to have more than one page of info screens? It's entirely possible... They've been in every FE Game to date.

. . .every game up to Tellius, sadly. I'd love to see the returned of a multi-page stat screen, because IMO weapon levels aren't info you need RIGHT NOW ALL THE TIME.

Ahem. . .anyway, I'm not too worried about it. I'd be super-relieved if supports stopped at A, so I could have Kamui be as, uh, free as Robin was in Awakening. As for the incest in past FEs. . .4 nonwithstanding (plot point), it's been ambiguous enough to call "really close siblings".

[Jaedrik]

Context: I posted this on Smashboards in a Smash shipping thread once the subject of Marth x Lucina was broached.

"Here's some Canon Law for everyone.

Can. 1091 §1. In the direct line of consanguinity marriage is invalid between all ancestors and descendants, both legitimate and natural.

§2. In the collateral line marriage is invalid up to and including the fourth degree.

§3. The impediment of consanguinity is not multiplied.

What this means is first cousins have not been permitted to marry in the Church for nearly a thousand years.

This also means that no direct descendants can ever be married. Great-great-great-great relationships included or whatever.

But here's the interesting part.

This Canon Law is based in the Natural Law. That is, it tries to reflect how nature deals with things. What happens with interbreeding is all sorts of strain on relationships and, more importantly, the real damage done to the products of their inbreeding by the process of nature.

Well, okay? So what?

The Church allows dispensations from (certain parts of) Canon Law.

It's obvious that Canon Law isn't built around time travel.

It's easy to see that someone might be so far down a generational line with no severe inbreeding as to incur no penalty from the natural law. Therefore, civil and ecclesiastical authority could shrug and be like "yeah that's cool".

Source: My cousin is adopted (in fact, all 9 of them on me mum's side are) and she's hot so I was wondering if I could marry her lel

Disclaimer: I do not support Marth x Lucina but here's for u guys ok your welcome

I found out some more neat stuff about the whole nobility marriage thing.

History buffs are undoubtedly well aware of countless examples of such dispensations granted to members of European royal families in centuries past. Often it was argued — convincingly — that it was politically expedient for the two cousins to marry, because their wedding would contribute to peaceful relations between their two countries. Sadly, the bloodlines of most royal houses became so intertwined that significant genetic problems eventually arose among some family members. The daughter of Spain’s Ferdinand and Isabella, for example, was apparently insane and became known as “Juana la Loca,” or “Joan the Mad.” And just a couple of generations later, Carlos, the eldest son of Spain’s King Phillip II, was born physically handicapped and mentally unstable. It is commonly understood that too much intermarriage between too many cousins wreaked genetic havoc within Europe’s royal families, leading to the various medical problems suffered by these and numerous other royals. source"

Edited April 7, 2015 by Jaedrik

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i wouldn't mind honestly, its just another thing.

you could argue its also a fetish but everything is a fetish for the right people.

[Ghostlander]

This topic is.....what. You realize FEA had just as much incest right?

And none of it really bothers me. If you're so bothered by it why are you even playing the games?

[Yunanuy]

And we're assuming that it isn't possible to have more than one page of info screens? It's entirely possible... They've been in every FE Game to date.

I'm assuming that because Awakening had "two" info screens, where their marriage partner was viewable on both, if using Awakening's system will be the same.

Either way, only time will tell. I don't mind the marriages, just please don't bring any more children into the picture.

Edit: I laugh a bit at people making a big deal out of the uncle-niece relationship in Awakening like it's the only incestuous relationship in the game. LucinaxOwain. I'm just saying.

And don't tell me it's not the same because they're "Companions". That was censorship.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Val'air

[NekoKnight]

I'm assuming that because Awakening had "two" info screens, where their marriage partner was viewable on both, if using Awakening's system will be the same.

Either way, only time will tell. I don't mind the marriages, just please don't bring any more children into the picture.

Edit: I laugh a bit at people making a big deal out of the uncle-niece relationship in Awakening like it's the only incestuous relationship in the game. LucinaxOwain. I'm just saying.

And don't tell me it's not the same because they're "Companions". That was censorship.

It's not the only incest relationship, just the most icky one.

[Ganhur]

I did not realize LucinaxOwain is considered incest. Anyway, incest actually has more than one definition depends on the culture or ethic that raises you. The common one is blood-related sexual relationship. Some consider sexual relationship between steps or adopted siblings also incest, and some do not. Some consider between cousins incest, some culture do not.

Keep in mind you are reading a story or playing a game whose author is raised by ideologies that may not similar to yours. So expect some discomfort and empathize, or at least make some sense out of it on why such factor is put in there. After all, stories are adventures. Get used to it. Don't play/read it if you can't. It's not like you must play FE to get an A in this forum or english class.

And seriously, please question yourself why incest is immoral and unacceptable. I thought I saw a thread begging for homosexuality. Isn't homosexuality as much as abnormal as incest?

If you consider it is immoral and unethical because it is unhealthy. Do remind yourself about other unhealthy action of people around you that is not considered immoral yet still unhealthy and deadly: alcohol consuming, teenage sex, eating cheeseburgers, smoking. And read the news, human today die from cheeseburgers and pizzas great much more than being murdered or having abnormal sex. Why aren't you feeling icky about those?

I am not defending incest, but if there's anything to feel "icky" about, it's people's hypocrisy and prejudice.

FYI: Romantic and sexual relationship between cousins is not incest. I assume this is religious' point of view, but not even the Bible say that, so I have no idea where this idea came from. And depend on how far you look back to the family tree, all human are related so we all are cousins and siblings in one way or another. Every relationship out there is pretty much incest.

[nordopolica]

I did not realize LucinaxOwain is considered incest. Anyway, incest actually has more than one definition depends on the culture or ethic that raises you. The common one is blood-related sexual relationship. Some consider sexual relationship between steps or adopted siblings also incest, and some do not. Some consider between cousins incest, some culture do not.

Keep in mind you are reading a story or playing a game whose author is raised by ideologies that may not similar to yours. So expect some discomfort and empathize, or at least make some sense out of it on why such factor is put in there. After all, stories are adventures. Get used to it. Don't play/read it if you can't. It's not like you must play FE to get an A in this forum or english class.

And seriously, please question yourself why incest is immoral and unacceptable. I thought I saw a thread begging for homosexuality. Isn't homosexuality as much as abnormal as incest?

If you consider it is immoral and unethical because it is unhealthy. Do remind yourself about other unhealthy action of people around you that is not considered immoral yet still unhealthy and deadly: alcohol consuming, teenage sex, eating cheeseburgers, smoking. And read the news, human today die from cheeseburgers and pizzas great much more than being murdered or having abnormal sex. Why aren't you feeling icky about those?

I am not defending incest, but if there's anything to feel "icky" about, it's people's hypocrisy and prejudice.

FYI: Romantic and sexual relationship between cousins is not incest. I assume this is religious' point of view, but not even the Bible say that, so I have no idea where this idea came from. And depend on how far you look back to the family tree, all human are related so we all are cousins and siblings in one way or another. Every relationship out there is pretty much incest.

Please don't compare homosexuality to incest. Please please don't start this conversation here.

Incest is not only a religious taboo. It is an issue which dates back to ancient China and Egypt and it has serious health and mental effects so please don't.

Edited April 8, 2015 by nordopolica

[Ganhur]

I can think of a few sources for how " [it] is not only a religious taboo, and has serious health and mental effects." But I will comply.

I probably exposing my ignorance on this but I highly doubt Egypt and China have any credibility in matter of incest-is-no-no considering how they do "business" in ancient time.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Ganhur

[nordopolica]

I can think of a few sources for how " [it] is not only a religious taboo, and has serious health and mental effects." But I will comply.

I probably exposing my ignorance on this but I highly doubt Egypt and China have any credibility in matter of incest-is-no-no considering how they do "business" in ancient time.

If anything Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs like Tutankhamun are prime examples as to why incest has become an intense taboo.

[Yunanuy]

And seriously, please question yourself why incest is immoral and unacceptable. I thought I saw a thread begging for homosexuality. Isn't homosexuality as much as abnormal as incest?

I can't believe you pulled that card...There is a massive difference between the two, and it's called consent. Consent between two equal human beings. Consent. I'll say it again if I have to.

Anyways, I consider cousins to be as incestuous as someone doing it with their uncle or aunt. Second cousins, third cousins and so on are a bit more acceptable to me, but I think it's still pretty weird either way. But yeah, it has a lot to do with culture. A lot of countries allow cousins to marry, but that doesn't change the fact that your uncle/aunt becomes your mother/father-in-law. Double family-titles are just not for me.

But yeah, I guess Inigo/BradyxMorgan-relationship is a bit more icky than the rest, but that's a loophole. They don't mention their family-connections in any of their supports, LucinaxOwain however do, and were coded into the game to be able to marry. Morals are a whole different topic though, so I'm not gonna delve any further into that.

[Magical CC]

There was a pretty tragic case (if what I read was to believable), Cesare Borgia and his sister. Each of them is a tragic historical figure themselves.