47948201 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I was pretty sure I originally meant for my bow to only have enough uses for a few level-ups, then you'd have to switch to iron bow except when necessary, but Wolfram later just made my Silver Bow clone infinite use, so I went to confirm in Skype logs...Turns out he also considered giving me a Brave Bow. But yeah going to watch unedited stream before I give my final thoughts on this submission and how even though it became kinda baitnswitchy at the end it's still such an enormous improvement over the legendary "stone box with enemies sitting in it" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyJoe1990 Posted March 30, 2016 Author Share Posted March 30, 2016 "How to make archers good? Just let 'em fuckin' cheat." - Kyougiry, during the Ragefest Submission #14 stream, 59:01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverHairedFreak25 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 THIS IS A MESSAGE FROM LORD PURT. I WILL AWAIT YOU AT BREAD ISLE.Thanks for giving me an asthma attack.I was laughing so hard at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47948201 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) Yeah other than me apparently being even more broken than intended, everything seemed about what I expected. I think Wolfram's biggest problem is his Spear fetish, giving the player just a couple sword units. I'm pretty sure Halberd is the only obtainable axe in the game. That said, I think if the top half or so of the map were cut out, or he had more time/energy to fill it in with things that didn't just stand there, the result would've been a lot nicer overall. Fun fact, he did at one point have a second map, but I'm pretty sure it was impossible: it was a maze of 1-tile hallways with fog of war and lots of enemy wyvern lords and generals (I don't remember what weapons they had, probably spears) I still think the game is probably better off not having it, so at least it could have a pretty nice ending for that appropriate-if-not-nearly-rng-proofed-enough-intro. Also, I didn't even realize you could use Orange to keep Jeff alive, but that was pretty cool, if ultimately a bit underwhelming. Edited March 30, 2016 by 47948201 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuvarkz Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) I wonder whether it's possible to make the weapon description's values give false information. (Because if the last three bosses had actually 1-3 range while displaying 1-2 it would've been absolutely hilarious) Edited March 30, 2016 by tuvarkz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrNight48 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 ok just finished the video so a few serious things after 2 things. 1) Kirby, is your father 3-13 archer? 2) Lunamaster's banhammer skills top tier, have a honorary internet cookie. Jokes aside, now for the more serious points of the stream. 1st off, I can't really say it was a good idea to stream this. Not because it got boring at parts but more of the chat helping you play and what not. Missing that special forest tile should have been your punishment for ignoring it and it felt like the chat was throwing out hints just to move things along. You probably could have came up with much better post commentary/video without the chats hints but at the same time, the chat did make things interesting so it's something to think about. Also again, this was another example of why I sometimes I hate the way you play. Pisses me off from a designer's standpoint than from a gamer's. Just ignoring all that dank effort, Smell the roses and what not. 2nd and this one is more darker. At some point marc, you are going to have to spell out exactly what you want in ragefest. Lately, the more I look at these videos, the more I am seeing a whole lot of effort and time put in these submissions just for it to be a miss with you and the fans. I'm sure most of us going into this do expect this outcome and not self-destruct over it but I can definitely see this becoming (if not already behind the scenes) a huge problem down the road. There times when I watch these that I question if you really want a hard chapter or a fun one. I know a submission can be both but sometimes the goals can conflict with each other. Will talk about it more when I have given it some more thought but for now keep it at the back of your mind. Other than that, if nothing else this submission gets dank meme generator award from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47948201 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (sorry if this ends up doubling, net died as I was posting) Yeah, actually this submission did raise that issue back up, and pretty prominently. I've been feeling for the past several submissions that the ideal would be "difficult, but fair" in that a skilled player, with great effort, could overcome it on their first try. There can be traps, but they should be creative from the designer and be manageable with a creative solution; there can be puzzles, but only as auxillaries to the core game, and they should be as intuitive as possible. Stuff like that. But then, when the highlight of the submission was the empowerment at the end, where it became fun and not even the slightest bit hard, yet that was Marc's favorite part... I dunno. It does give the impression that even a Ragefest is better off with less rage and more fun. Maybe this was the lesson all along O: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomSwordmaster Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) Perhaps this is a sign that MAFC will inherit ragefest's title as successor? Also, none shall defile the sacred ground that is marky's chat box while I exist! Anyway, streams, if not the most entertaining of media, are still useful for generating dank memes, as evidenced by this hack. Edited March 30, 2016 by RandomSwordmaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintales Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 There was really something with the forest tile? I just threw this as a joke to be honest. I laughed my everything when I saw Kirby use Cantoforce. And the Halberdier meme will probably follow in the next submission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avraxas Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 ok just finished the video so a few serious things after 2 things. 1) Kirby, is your father 3-13 archer? 2) Lunamaster's banhammer skills top tier, have a honorary internet cookie. Jokes aside, now for the more serious points of the stream. 1st off, I can't really say it was a good idea to stream this. Not because it got boring at parts but more of the chat helping you play and what not. Missing that special forest tile should have been your punishment for ignoring it and it felt like the chat was throwing out hints just to move things along. You probably could have came up with much better post commentary/video without the chats hints but at the same time, the chat did make things interesting so it's something to think about. Also again, this was another example of why I sometimes I hate the way you play. Pisses me off from a designer's standpoint than from a gamer's. Just ignoring all that dank effort, Smell the roses and what not. 2nd and this one is more darker. At some point marc, you are going to have to spell out exactly what you want in ragefest. Lately, the more I look at these videos, the more I am seeing a whole lot of effort and time put in these submissions just for it to be a miss with you and the fans. I'm sure most of us going into this do expect this outcome and not self-destruct over it but I can definitely see this becoming (if not already behind the scenes) a huge problem down the road. There times when I watch these that I question if you really want a hard chapter or a fun one. I know a submission can be both but sometimes the goals can conflict with each other. Will talk about it more when I have given it some more thought but for now keep it at the back of your mind. Other than that, if nothing else this submission gets dank meme generator award from me. (sorry if this ends up doubling, net died as I was posting) Yeah, actually this submission did raise that issue back up, and pretty prominently. I've been feeling for the past several submissions that the ideal would be "difficult, but fair" in that a skilled player, with great effort, could overcome it on their first try. There can be traps, but they should be creative from the designer and be manageable with a creative solution; there can be puzzles, but only as auxillaries to the core game, and they should be as intuitive as possible. Stuff like that. But then, when the highlight of the submission was the empowerment at the end, where it became fun and not even the slightest bit hard, yet that was Marc's favorite part... I dunno. It does give the impression that even a Ragefest is better off with less rage and more fun. Maybe this was the lesson all along O: I think we can already find that ourselves given the commentary Marc's given over the course of RF4. Difficulty The ideal submission would have to be one that is difficult, but the difficulty has to be lent to the submission in a creative way (no spamming respawns, ambush instant gameovers, etc). The solution(s) should be a lenient one in that you don't have to take specific steps to solve the submission, and if it isn't intuitive it should at least be hinted at and be some creative alternative. RNG proofing is an absolute MUST, and Activation Skills, if used, should be kept to defensive ones, as offensive skills could potentially ruin a defensive strategy. The reason Kirby's Cantoforce became the highlight for Marc in Angel of Darkness, if I recall, was because after the RNG-troubled and highly difficult first part, Cantoforce essentially breaking the game was a power reversal and a way for Marc to essentially "get his revenge" on the game, so to speak. Giving absurd-levels of power to Marc's characters at the end of a submission has generally been received well over the past, but I think it's a bit risky to bank on that to make a submission work. Gameplay The ideal submission is obviously one that is fun to play, but this has to work in tandem to the difficulty. It has to be interesting in a way that will be fun to play DESPITE the difficulty, rather than by lowering the difficulty. Come up with ideas that will really make the player think. I don't mean to toot my own horn (I kind of do), but I'd say the first part of Tale of Purt was an example of this; the solo-defense mission against the dragons. It's a defense mission where staying put is actually detrimental, there are no choke points, and making a wrong move doesn't punish you so badly that you might as well restart. Instead it wears you down with every wrong move, and it has variance/options in the form of a relatively big map and Elixirs to use should you get low in HP. I think other (more) notable examples are Emblem Warriors with the area control mechanics, or F.EXE with it's RNG rework. If there is an element that you yourself don't enjoy when testing your submission, rework it or cut it. Don't think just regular Fire Emblem, branch out and see what you can really do. Story/Jokes So far, serious things haven't seemed to work (though this is clearly subject to change), and being "funny" by being self-aware/breaking the fourth wall isn't going to cut it. Jokes so far have been really important to lightening the mood after difficult parts. In-jokes are really helpful for getting Marc's attention while playing, but you also risk missing the point with the rest of your audience, so use this carefully. However, make sure to have moments of awesome in your story, if it's fitting. When it comes to story, RULE OF COOL is a large factor, it seems. Ragefest Revengeance nailed this one particularly, even with the dying Evil Lyn bit. Let the Moneyman die (but we all know that's not happening). Lastly, make sure you characterize Marc correctly (if he makes an appearance), or at least believably justify why he is out-of-character. Sophia is a no go, unless Manphia. Reisen is tricky business, but there's certainly payoff if you characterize her correctly and give her long enough hair. Music Castlevania. Well, this is my tediously long take on it. Sorry (not really) for the super long post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrNight48 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I think we can already find that ourselves given the commentary Marc's given over the course of RF4. Difficulty The ideal submission would have to be one that is difficult, but the difficulty has to be lent to the submission in a creative way (no spamming respawns, ambush instant gameovers, etc). The solution(s) should be a lenient one in that you don't have to take specific steps to solve the submission, and if it isn't intuitive it should at least be hinted at and be some creative alternative. RNG proofing is an absolute MUST, and Activation Skills, if used, should be kept to defensive ones, as offensive skills could potentially ruin a defensive strategy. The reason Kirby's Cantoforce became the highlight for Marc in Angel of Darkness, if I recall, was because after the RNG-troubled and highly difficult first part, Cantoforce essentially breaking the game was a power reversal and a way for Marc to essentially "get his revenge" on the game, so to speak. Giving absurd-levels of power to Marc's characters at the end of a submission has generally been received well over the past, but I think it's a bit risky to bank on that to make a submission work. Gameplay The ideal submission is obviously one that is fun to play, but this has to work in tandem to the difficulty. It has to be interesting in a way that will be fun to play DESPITE the difficulty, rather than by lowering the difficulty. Come up with ideas that will really make the player think. I don't mean to toot my own horn (I kind of do), but I'd say the first part of Tale of Purt was an example of this; the solo-defense mission against the dragons. It's a defense mission where staying put is actually detrimental, there are no choke points, and making a wrong move doesn't punish you so badly that you might as well restart. Instead it wears you down with every wrong move, and it has variance/options in the form of a relatively big map and Elixirs to use should you get low in HP. I think other (more) notable examples are Emblem Warriors with the area control mechanics, or F.EXE with it's RNG rework. If there is an element that you yourself don't enjoy when testing your submission, rework it or cut it. Don't think just regular Fire Emblem, branch out and see what you can really do. Story/Jokes So far, serious things haven't seemed to work (though this is clearly subject to change), and being "funny" by being self-aware/breaking the fourth wall isn't going to cut it. Jokes so far have been really important to lightening the mood after difficult parts. In-jokes are really helpful for getting Marc's attention while playing, but you also risk missing the point with the rest of your audience, so use this carefully. However, make sure to have moments of awesome in your story, if it's fitting. When it comes to story, RULE OF COOL is a large factor, it seems. Ragefest Revengeance nailed this one particularly, even with the dying Evil Lyn bit. Let the Moneyman die (but we all know that's not happening). Lastly, make sure you characterize Marc correctly (if he makes an appearance), or at least believably justify why he is out-of-character. Sophia is a no go, unless Manphia. Reisen is tricky business, but there's certainly payoff if you characterize her correctly and give her long enough hair. Music Castlevania. Well, this is my tediously long take on it. Sorry (not really) for the super long post. I say that is a pretty solid list but ... I don't know, still organizing my thoughts. get back to me in a week lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47948201 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 At its greatest potential, the different forest tile will become a minor meme. The more important forest tile was the one the chat finally convinced Marc to make Niko use, making the first part much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomSwordmaster Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) At its greatest potential, the different forest tile will become a minor meme. /makesnote (is secretly making a compendium of memes from all streams of marky's that he has watched over time so as to get ideas for hacks) Edited March 30, 2016 by RandomSwordmaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avraxas Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 /makesnote (is secretly making a compendium of memes from all streams of marky's that he has watched over time so as to get ideas for hacks) I can see it now: MJ1990's Ragefest Contest V Submission 36: Dank Meme Hell By RandomSwordmaster [PART 20] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomSwordmaster Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) pfft, not going to put in ALL of the dank memes, I have an idea for a submission gameplay wise, the memes are just there for basis for the terrible story and humor in the game. *goes off to look up halberdier assets* ideas so far: Markyjoel990 has raised an army of halberdiers to use to take revenge on MarkyJoe1990 for banning him from the stream personally all those months ago! Markyjoe1990 has but one hope: The neutral Hero that fought heroically on his side that fateful day. How will the NPC hero work? Let's just say I've got some ideas. off to the side of the map, Jeff and Ephidel will fight an endless battle, Jeff dodging every attack, but dealing no damage. the NPC hero must find the Halberd, for it is the one weapon that can defeat Markyjoel990 and his army of halberdiers, for the Halberd was forged from the essence of 10000 of the greatest halberdiers that lived. Edited March 30, 2016 by RandomSwordmaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47948201 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) what's the player phase theme? EDIT: Actually I wonder if I should just like make some stupid breather game with all the worst things but that isn't really frustrating for Marc to play inbetween recording ℱ⋆ℰℵℰ...? Edited March 30, 2016 by 47948201 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomSwordmaster Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 inescapable fate something not overused Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrNight48 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) soon one will be able to create bad custom animations with ease too. unless they are dragon based. y'all are shit out of luck with those because they are a usenti nightmare edit: maybe some dragons. Edited March 31, 2016 by MrNight48 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyJoe1990 Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) It's hard for me to say what I want in a Ragefest submission because my opinions tend to change over time, but I can at least say what I'm looking for in Ragefest V. 1a) I used to think the "only one strategy" type of design was ideal since it maximized difficulty and frustration. Nowadays, I passionately hate this kind of design because of how boring it makes repeated runs, and how it hurts the replay value of a submission. It also has an enormous fundamental problem in that sometimes the dice will roll against you and make the submission impossible, or utterly trivialize it because of an extra turn of unintended leeway. That, or I just do something the author didn't intend and completely break it apart. So this kind of approach either needs to stop happening, or be revamped in such a way that covers up its flaws. 1b) Knowing this, I think a very consistent theme with me is that I tend to enjoy submissions with more freedom to them. Rondo Of Madness and Ragefest Revengeance come to mind because in both, you can in theory miss lots of content or make a lot of mistakes and still manage to beat the submission. I beat the latter without getting Kyo another thunder tome, nor promoting anyone but Lyn, and this sort of makes me wonder how well I can optimize my playing for the chapter and want to go back to it. Not to mention, a lot of people in the comments actually went and said they wanted to play the submission themselves, which is kinda rare with Ragefest. That being said, Revengeance I think could have benefited from a bit more pressure, so I guess balance is key here. 1c) Even though Ragefest is fundamentally about frustrating me and making things hard, I think Angel Of Darkness shows that you can get a positive response from viewers if you try to empower me as well. I've noticed that people like to see me getting drunk with power. I mean, just look at that whole bit where I use Kirby to wipe out a legion of warriors. The chat is losing their shit. Poor Lumamaster is dying of laughter. 1d) I more readily appreciate difficulty that puts me in strange, innovative scenarios, but I have a lot of respect for people who are extremely good at enemy placement and functional map design. Something I think people don't realize is that enemy placement is probably THE MOST important aspect of FE level design. You can have a totally flat map with no trees, mountains, or walls and STILL make it interesting by the way you place your enemies. I think the first turn of BladeHero's submission actually does this quite well. Look at the way the enemies are placed, their ranges, and how I consider what the optimal movements are. Even with weak, relatively sparse enemy counts such as those, you can make something difficult if you are skilled with enemy placement. Though, I can't tell if BladeHero intentionally made that interesting or not, based on how the rest of the submission plays out. 2a) In terms of story writing, I feel like this can go a lot of directions, but I think most importantly, the writing should reflect the personality of the creator. Knowing Orange as much as I do (Which is admittedly not much), I could tell he did most of the writing in Angel Of Darkness. Like, just watch some of Orange's youtube videos and you'll know what I'm talking about. It's pretty spot on, and I like that. And of course, I have to mention Tales Of Purt here. Goofy under dog characters, doofy intro themes, ending epilogue text, etc.. However, I totally think that Ragefest can have other styles of writing applied to it. Even though The Corruption Of Roy was a dark tale, a good number of people voted it for Writer's Award, which to me indicates that I'm not the only one who wouldn't mind more dark and edgey in my Ragefest. Albeit, better written. 2b) However, I also wanna see less money man. WAY less money man. Hell, less memes in general. Some markyjoe memes are so obscure that no one (including me) but my fans will get them, and I want to emphasize how important it is to make humor that appeals to more than just me and my viewers. A phrase I like to toss around is something like "Make your writing so good that it generates its own memes". Do that. Maybe you'll create the next Manphia. I've also noticed some of my viewers are getting sick of this as well, so by Ragefest V, this might be something counted against you even by the viewers. That said, I think memes are acceptable so long as they aren't central to the submission's writing. Moderation, I suppose. 2c) DO NOT try to manipulate me by putting Reisen in danger, especially if you don't know her character. Years of having my former waifu Misuzu Kamio slammed and fatalitied several times back in my days of MUGEN have steeled my ability to rationally disconnect myself from the character, and several sessions of analysis and role playing has given me a very specific image of Reisen, one that is NOT parallel to her shitty fanon depiction. Which is extremely inaccurate. I liken her fanon depiction to how Fire Emblem fanon depicts Serra without any of her sympathetic qualities. To write a convincing Reisen (to me), you have to seriously dig into the games and written works of Touhou. You might also want to look at my character re-analysis on my forums, which might be a little out of date, but is nonetheless what I consider accurate. If you somehow manage to write a Reisen I can become emotionally invested in, this can actually become a powerful tool that tugs at my heart strings. But also think this would show a much more... quiet and serious side of me, and I'd probably not be entertaining to watch... That reminds me. Don't kill off Reisen either, cause I role play a lot, and... well, it's hard to take that stuff seriously when meanwhile she's totally fine in my own role plays. Basically to use Reisen against me effectively, you need to do a million things right. =\ 2d) I do like being the main character of these submissions, but 1) This might not do much for people unfamiliar with my videos, 2) Some people just depict me as endlessly negative, and 3) I think it'd be cool to see me in positions other than the main character. Actually, I'd like to be the final boss some more~ :P Anyway, uh... Yeah, I feel like the best depiction of me would be something like... make me snarky and complainy, but also insightful and, y'know, actually able to have fun. Like, I could totally picture a cutscene where castlevania music goes on, and the in-game me goes "FUCK YEAH!" or something like that. For a character to be likable, I feel you have to show their bad traits AND good traits. I dunno. It's hard to explain. 2e) More on the previous point, I kinda also like being direct adversaries of the creator. Actually... I think it'd be cool if someone made a Ragefest submission that's more or less a satire of when I played BladeHero's submission, where I'm breaking the submission apart and the author's in-game commentary is just like "Oh... I uh... I wasn't expecting that". There's a lot of comedy gold potential there, I think. 3a) Avraxas is spot on with music. Music has a HUGE effect on me, especially Castlevania music. And to be honest, I don't like FE7's soundtrack much. FE8 and FE6 are where it's at, dog. Also fuck Inescapable Fate. That song is so god damn over the top and OOOH SO SERIOUS DARK EVIL OMINOUS horseshit fuck. It comes off as ESPECIALLY pretentious on a map that thematically wants something quiet or stealthy. But yeah, people need to learn music hacking cause this is a huge boon. And uh... avoid copyrighted music so I don't get claims. DX 3b) We need more hot chicks with extremely long hair :P 3c) This is probably THE MOST IMPORTANT thing, but contestants NEED to communicate with each other more often so they don't end up repeating ideas. Just look at how often the Money Man shows up in this bloody contest. >_< Hopefully I got everything. Let me be clear that I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WANT ALL THE TIME. The things above are probably not everything, and you might even be able to take an idea I hate and convince me to realize its potential. DO NOT take my word as law or the best possible advice. DISCUSSION is important here, and you should also consider what you like and consider good. Edited March 31, 2016 by MarkyJoe1990 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augestein Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Oh, so serious submissions are actually a thing that can be done? Maybe I'll try one. Every time I try to write something happy, go lucky, it crashes and burns and is so stupid that you'd wonder if I wasn't right in the head. Also, I don't think the money man means that people should communicate. I think the usage of Money Man like this is showing that people need to not take the cheapest route for humor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintales Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 HEY! YOU! GUESS WHAT? MONEY IS IMPORTANT! IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT, YOUR WEAPONS WILL banned to meme hell RIP sweet money man. 2k2-2k16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 i thought emblem warriors did the moneyman thing the best, not to mention it did basically point out how outdated he is even for mainline fire emblem standards as money is well...not important anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliwan Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 3b) We need more hot chicks with extremely long hair :PIf said chick includes her own battle animation, would you leave animations on for her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyJoe1990 Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 If said chick includes her own battle animation, would you leave animations on for her?...How long are we talking here? I need to make sure it crosses the MarkyJoe Threshold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augestein Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 i thought emblem warriors did the moneyman thing the best, not to mention it did basically point out how outdated he is even for mainline fire emblem standards as money is well...not important anymore I can agree with that... Except... Ironically enough, money is MORE important in Fates because it doesn't give you ANY MONEY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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