2017 NFL Playoffs - Super Bowl LI Confirmed! Atlanta Falcons vs New England Patriots!

[Lord Raven]

Life, half of your posts make no fucking sense, to be honest, so I don't think you've any right to lecture her on things.

"Cam Newton has reached his peak" is a statement not backed up by any proper logic either given that you're comparing his situation to those four.

Ben Roethlisberger - had great receivers and one of the best defenses of the decade for much of his career.

Aaron Rodgers - sat on the bench for 3 years before starting, started 6-10, had a ton of great receivers to throw to as well as a defense that wasn't awful.

Tom Brady - that defense was pretty spectacular and Tom Brady back then is nothing close to Tom Brady now anyway. 2002, 2006, or 2007 were the only years where he could be considered a Top 5 QB before 2009, and they didn't even make the playoffs in 2002.

Peyton Manning - he had a rough patch starting out (cause that team sucked shit), went 13-3 and 10-6 in years 2 and 3, but he also had dudes like Marvin Harrison and Edgerrin James to help him out. He had Marshall Faulk his rookie season and could only muster up 3 wins.

Cam Newton - only receiver of note was Steve Smith, and the Panthers had an awful defense for a while as well as way too much money tied up in running backs and other positions. Cap troubles are a bitch, and they continued through his years. New Head Coach too, because John Fox got fired after a 1-15 season.

I'm willing to bet Cam's team was actually significantly worse than a lot of the teams that these 3 guys inherited. That is to say, right now I don't think he's better than Flacco or even close, especially not as a passer, but to say he's hit his ceiling is ludicrous because Carolina's receivers are actually much worse than Brady's early receivers. Those dudes were at least versatile. That's a statement based on, what, the fact that the Panthers were a pretty bad team for most of his career? Are you gonna say Luck has reached his ceiling too because the Colts can't go anything but 11-5?

Edited October 3, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Life]

Life, half of your posts make no fucking sense, to be honest, so I don't think you've any right to lecture her on things.

"Cam Newton has reached his peak" is a statement not backed up by any proper logic either given that you're comparing his situation to those four.

I'm willing to bet Cam's team was actually significantly worse than a lot of the teams that these 3 guys inherited. That is to say, right now I don't think he's better than Flacco or even close, especially not as a passer, but to say he's hit his ceiling is ludicrous because Carolina's receivers are actually much worse than Brady's early receivers. Those dudes were at least versatile. That's a statement based on, what, the fact that the Panthers were a pretty bad team for most of his career? Are you gonna say Luck has reached his ceiling too because the Colts can't go anything but 11-5?

First point, I was pointing out Ana's flaws because she compared them to Brady/Roethlisburger/Manning/Rodgers but since you called me out, gladly.

I've been watching Cam since college and I've always felt that he was overrated. He's great with his feet and extending plays but he's not a QB I feel comfortable watching. His biggest noticeable flaw is simply his accuracy, even in the pocket. He's got a completion record of less than 60% for his career. Even in the pocket, it feels like he's scared to sit there and just wait for the route to develop.

My biggest issue, however, are his highs and lows. Cam very rarely has just a solid game (and long stretch too if you think about it). He's either a dud or a stud. He's been working on it this season but I really believe that Cam will never take that additional step to become great. I might watch some Carolina games from this season (probably vs. the Jags) to see if that really holds up.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Life

[Lord Raven]

I think most QBs with the OL the Panthers have had would feel the same way as Newton, but at the same time his inability to step into things and put touch into his passes is what annoys me about him. I still think he can get better, because he's actually pretty good (I firmly do believe we're in a golden age for QBs right now anyway).

[Zasplach]

(I firmly do believe we're in a golden age for QBs right now anyway).

Do you? I just don't see it. Cam Newton is a good quarterback, but he is pretty emblematic of how the quarterback position, at least in my mind is pretty weak. In terms of quantifying his abilities I'd say he has an 'A' arm, 'A+" feet, 'B' touch and a 'C' in terms of field breakdown. He's got great skills, but he just does enough stuff to hurt his team. I don't watch him every weak, but last year, against a pretty depleted Cardinal defense he was 18/32 with two touchdowns, and an interception, hardly a good game against a team minus Mattheiu and Buchannon and a depleted Patrick Peterson(he apparently suffered a bout of type 2 diabetes).

But the overall point is despite his questionable quarterback decision making, he is arguably a top ten quarterback and I feel like there are 10 teams in the league who don't even have permanent quarterbacks, or at least questionable starters. We are definitely in the golden age of great quarterbacks, Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Rothlesberger, but a lot of those great quarterbacks are nearing the end of their carrier and colleges aren't producing NFL ready quarterbacks. Hell the Goff kid from Cal is Mel Kipper's highest ranked prospect in the draft.

I honestly think quarterback play is pretty sub par in modern football, numbers can be inflated by great schemes, coaches are definitely smart guys, but I feel like there are only about 20 guys in the whole world who can play quarterback in the NFL. Hell, with Rothelesberger down Micheal Vick is a starting quarterback, that's scary. Great offensive weapons make the game more offensively exciting, I just don't see great quarterbacks, mostly just great schemes.

[Anacybele]

Speaking of Steve Smith, he broke four ribs. Damn. :/ Although, how that is possible when he was hit in the BACK, I don't know... This is just what the news says. Sorry, Lord Raven...

But damn, there's a QB curse and WR curse going around. Notable QBs that have been hurt already include: Tony Romo, Drew Brees, Matthew Stafford, Josh McCown, Jay Cutler, Big Ben.

WRs: Kelvin Benjamin, Jordy Nelson, Dez Bryant, Jerricho Cotchery, Steve Smith. Maybe someone else I'm not thinking of.

And a few other big name players have gotten hurt already too: Terrell Suggs and Luke Kuechly, for example. So, QB, WR, and big name in general curse...

And OMG the Steelers released Scobee and signed Chris Boswell. This guy's supposed to have a strong leg, but if his accuracy isn't way better than Scobee's, I swear I'll punch a hole in a wall.

[Zasplach]

Injuries are to be expected, Mark Shlereth has been talking about how the collective bargaining agreement has basically negotiated more injuries in the game. Now that teams basically can't work out and do football stuff in the offseason, more guys are going to get hurt. If you aren't playing football, your body isn't going to withstand the torture that is NFL football.

[Anacybele]

Er, I don't remember anybody in the NFL ever playing football in the offseason. I believe they do practice though. I don't get what you're trying to say.

Also, why the hell is Steve Smith threatening "revenge" on Mike Mitchell when Mitchell wasn't even the one that hit him? That was Timmons and Blake. Yet, he grabbed and clearly threatened both Mitchell and Blake. I saw it. He's such an ass all of a sudden. Grow up and get over it. You're going to be hit hard in the NFL sometimes. It was a clean hit anyway. And I don't think Timmons intentionally tries to hurt anyone. Same with Blake.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Anacybele

[Zasplach]

I don't mean playing games, i mean practicing in pads, hitting each other in workouts, pushing your limits outside of games, they can't do that in the NFL anymore, everyone basically practices in shorts (no hitting at all) 4 days a week during the season and int the offseason they are severely limited in what they are allowed to do. The offseason is basically a zero-contact time.

[Anacybele]

Ohhh. Yeah, I do get your point, but if they do that all year, wouldn't they wear out their bodies faster or something? I guess one just has to find a fine balance here.

[Lord Raven]

I don't think we're in a golden age

Counting all starters, we have;

Aaron Rodgers (basically the closest you can get to a surefire Hall of Famer without being a Hall of Famer)

Peyton Manning (GOAT)

Tom Brady (GOAT)

Drew Brees

Andrew Luck

Matt Ryan

Joe Flacco (even the Ravens have a franchise QB, come on man)

Russell Wilson

Cam Newton

Carson Palmer

Andy Dalton

Sam Bradford

Ben Roethlisberger

Matthew Stafford

Average-ish guys:

Ryan Tannehill

Alex Smith

Up and coming guys:

Teddy Bridgewater

Derek Carr

Black Bortles

Marcus Mariota

Jameis Winston

That's quite a lot given the number of teams that had trouble finding a QB in the 80s and 90s. 90s had a higher peak but it's currently spread out through most teams.

Out of those dudes I listed I'm fairly sure Cam Newton may even have the lowest football IQ, and his is definitely pretty good. You can talk about schemes and rule changes but pro offenses are also much more complex than they used to be.

EDIT: Although I might acknowledge we may be a few years past it. Drew Brees now isn't Drew Brees of a few years ago.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Anacybele]

Andy Dalton is average, come on. xP He's not terrible, but he can't win playoff games and he tends to choke in prime time.

[Lord Raven]

Dalton's better than those dudes I listed, definitely. He's basically the lower end of someone you'd want to keep long term but at least he can make the playoffs.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Anacybele]

Yeah, I do suppose that's true. But Dalton's gotten to a Super Bowl?

[Lord Raven]

i dont know if you posted before or after my edit but i meant playoffs not super bowl lmao

[Anacybele]

Oh! No, I posted before your edit. xP But yeah, he can make the playoffs, but he's lost the first game four years in a row now...

[Zasplach]

I mean, not to make my point, but you just listed 20 guys, there are 32 NFL teams. I will grant that we have the greatest group of great quarterbacks, Manning, Brady, Rodgers, oh my. But a lot of guys on the list are on the way out, Palmer, Manning, Brees, hell even Brady is old, guys just play forever because so many rules say you can't even touch quarterbacks anymore, the NFL knows where the money is. I just don't find the list that impressive, Stafford isn't a franchise guy, he can't lead an okay team to be good, Russell Wilson is so dependent on schemes and running the football, when was the last time Matt Ryan made the playoffs and Sam Bradford has spent his whole career injured. I think this 'greatness' is mostly a product of new rules and very good offensive coaching.

[Lord Raven]

The last 5 aren't really rankable but they show a lot of promise.

The top 14 guys are rankable and at least quality. I used average to mean "not notaby good or bad" moreso than "middle of the pack."

I also definitely did acknowledge that maybe we've moved past it a bit and that certain players (see: Brees) aren't what they used to be. It still doesn't take away from my point that the fact that around 15-20 teams have at least an okay quarterback shows that we're in a good age for QBs as opposed to when a lot of teams had the QB position in flux.

Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, and John Matthew Stafford are better than you're giving them credit for. There haven't been any actual new rules aside from a few helmet to helmet things - Illegal Contact was a rule in 1978, and 2004 was a re-emphasis of said rule but it hasn't been egregiously applied. More players are actually going through a pro-style offense in high school and college than before where the option was a very popular thing in college (hence why many QBs used to flame out).

I don't see how the fact that there's offensive coaching really contradicts my point either, because now people have a better idea of how to coach QBs and make them better. QBs also play longer due to not only roughing the passer and the Carson Palmer rule (see: 2005) but because sports medicine has also advanced in a non trivial way.

I'd also like to note that a lot of those QBs have been starting for 3-4+ years now and despite being in an era where people are trigger happy to replace what isn't working they still retained a job. I guarantee you there was significantly more QB turnover in the 90s (at the cost of less coaching turnover). There's a lot more coaching turnover now than QB turnover.

[-Cynthia-]

You didn't even list Rivers, Romo, or Eli who I think would be top 14- all better than Bradford or Stafford methinks.

[Zasplach]

We'll just have to disagree about the rules, the changing of emphasis in the last 10 years has dramatically changed the way cornerbacks defend on the outside because any little contact after 5 yards is a flag, that just wasn't true even 10 years ago. And not being able to hit the quarterbacks below the knees or above the should pads makes sacking them considerably harder.

And I feel like a low turnover for quarterbacks is more a product of poor play than great play, teams are willing to recycle guys like Matt Cassel and Fitzpatrick because very little talent exists outside the very best. Quarterback play may be better than when teams have huge turnover, but I still feel the rules on the outside turn okay quarterbacks into decent ones because every receiver and his brother can get some sort of separation on the outside. I agree that the very best are probably more dynamic and fun to watch than they were before, I just feel like the NFL really needs to develop some sort of 'minor league' to develop pro style quarterbacks or play will deteriorate as the league tries to adjust (see how poorly those Manziel, Griffin, and Kapernick experiments are going.)

Edited October 3, 2015 by Zasplach

[Lord Raven]

I mean it really hasn't changed that much in the past 5 years, I just think the DB position hasn't been very strong as of late. There's a lot at the top, not many good Safeties overall, and a lot of DBs are otherwise pretty bad or have poor technique. If you look at the point total per season per game it hasn't changed much at all in the past 20-30 years.

Another thing is that the Joker Tight End has been very popular as of late. There were also a bunch of times in the 90s where there were singular Wide Receivers getting a bunch of targets, receptions, and yards. Teams spread the ball around a lot more these days. Let's also not forget about backs like Faulk, Tomlinson, etc which are encouraging a more RB by committee type thing. Also how much of the league does a bunch of short passes anyway with only a few long balls here and there given the popularity of the WCO.

In general passers are getting much better than before and coaches are running things out of the shotgun. This is also due to RBs not being as great as the 90s or 00s as well, at least as a whole.

You're also acting like Cassel and Fitzpatrick recycled guys weren't around in the 90s and 00s. You mean dudes like Tony Banks and Trent Dilfer didn't exist either? Don't forget about dudes like Vinny Testaverde or Kerry Collins. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a shitpost article somewhere rumoring those two about to get signed by Cleveland.

Yeah Cynthia, I definitely had a brain fart forgetting those three lmao...

Edited October 4, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Zasplach]

Yeah, we're basically saying the same thing now. I just can't call it a golden age and with quarterbacks being so important really, bad ones in the league remove what the NFL loves, parity. You need a good quarterback to win, one of those bad recycles from the nineties Trent Dilfer won a Superbowl, if Cassel or Fitzpatrick win a Superbowl, I think I would laugh so hard that I would spit blood. It just makes the game a ton harder to watch for teams with bad quarterbacks, I'm not complaining now because my team has one right now, but 5 years ago when the Cards were fielding Peter Paul and Mary, ugh. They had a decent team, but wretched quarterback play, so all they could do was win 6 games. I just feel it's a position that has become too emphasized

Edited October 4, 2015 by Zasplach

[Anacybele]

I think hitting the QB low is more likely to injure them though, and really put a dent in their careers since ACL tearing is a leg injury. Look what happened to Ben.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Anacybele

[Zasplach]

I think hitting the QB low is more likely to injure them though, and really put a dent in their careers since ACL tearing is a leg injury. Look what happened to Ben.

Objectively a fair point, but have you ever tried to push through big bodies and then find the quarterback and then only hit him in a small window? It isn't easy.

[Anacybele]

Teams can still get plenty of sacks today though. The Steelers just did it five times in one game!

[Zasplach]

They get so many sacks per game because teams pass more than ever. Per attempt, the sack rate has been the lowest in the last 5 years in NFL history. If the other team passes 50 times in a game and you get 5 sacks, that really isn't very many sacks.