Class Inherent Skills and Class Parallels

[Leif]

[spoiler=Status Screen]

I don't know if anyone ever brought this up, but something struck me when I looked at this picture again.

See the skill slots on the right side of the picture?

One of them is bigger than the rest. Awakening had five skill slots and now IF has six. Could it be that the skill in the bigger circle is a class inherent skill? It would be analogous to the dark mages and sorcerers in awakening having that hidden shadowgift skill. Instead of that skill being hidden, this sixth skill slot could display class-only skills.

If a unit reclasses, then that displayed skill will disappear and change into that respective class's inherent skill?

It could signify personal skills too? I'm simply speculating here.

Finally I want to bring up another idea that I thought about. Could the classes in both the White and Black Kingdoms parallel each other exactly?

For instance, here are some of the parallels I've documented thus far:

Hoshido:

Pegasus Knights (Fliers)

Archers (Bow Unit)

Mace-Wielding Warrior (Axe-wielding unit)

Shinto Priestess (Cleric)

Myrmidons (Sword Units)

Eastern-style Mages (Magic Unit)

Nohr:

Wyvern Riders (Fliers)

Thief (Bow Unit, since thieves now seem to wield bows)

Fighter (Axe-wielding unit)

Troubadour (Cleric)

Mercenary (Sword Unit)

Dark Mages (Magic Unit)

See how the classes function similarly?

If this theory is correct, then we'd have to see a Hoshido counterpart to Cavaliers and Knights, which I don't think we've seen yet...

Discuss.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Leif

[PikaSamus]

Could it be a personal skill?

[Wayward Alchemist]

It'd be cool if each class had an "innate skill" that couldn't be transferred between classes, such as +15% Crit for Swordmasters. It could be a weaker version of the skill in a base class, like Crit +5 for Myrms, but Crit +15 for Swordmasters and (?) GBA style Lethality for Assassins. Maybe an inferior Armsthrift for Mercs, but the full-blown one for Heroes. Although, if given the choice, I'd like Personal Skills instead.

[VincentASM]

I noticed the class parallels too.

For Cavaliers, Hoshido probably has Ninajs or something that looks suspiciously like a ninja. You see two ninja-like characters on the Hoshidan side (in the indoor battle where we first saw Kazahana).

It's an odd parallel, but in the beginning of the first trailer, Hoshido has foot-soldiers battling horseback soldiers.

Edited April 26, 2015 by VincentASM

[Raguna]

I just want to have soldier class back if we can but then how can you parallel a soldier? Maybe they'll be unplayable again to keep it fair on both sides.

[Leif]

I noticed the class parallels too.

For Cavaliers, Hoshido probably has Ninajs or something that looks suspiciously like a ninja. You see two ninja-like characters on the Hoshidan side (in the indoor battle where we first saw Kazahana).

It's an odd parallel, but in the beginning of the first trailer, Hoshido has foot-soldiers battling horseback soldiers.

Ninjas for cavaliers? It is an odd parallel, but perhaps they have high movement since Ninjas are very mobile? Yes, the two ninjas are red and green respectively, so that guess is not far off.

I hope we get a ton of new classes that parallel the two versions. Class parallels make sense since you wouldn't want to have players get gimped by having a lack of a specific unit type.

[Wayward Alchemist]

Ninjas for cavaliers? It is an odd parallel, but perhaps they have high movement since Ninjas are very mobile? Yes, the two ninjas are red and green respectively, so that guess is not far off.

I hope we get a ton of new classes that parallel the two versions. Class parallels make sense since you wouldn't want to have players get gimped by having a lack of a specific unit type.

And Marx and Ryouma (Possible Paladin and Swordmaster, respectively), who are possible Jeigans/Oifeys, mirror the trend of the Jeigan/Oifey being promoted forms of the Cain and Abel archetypes, assuming that's what Saizou and Greenie are. I could see Ninjas branching into Assassins or Samurai/Swordmasters/Lobsters/whatever Ryouma is.

[Leif]

Ryouma is a swordmaster. His animations and overworld sprites are almost an exact copy of awakening's swordmasters. He could have a different class title, so he could be like a faux third-tier promotion?

Edited April 27, 2015 by Leif

[NekoKnight]

Class-locked skills could be pretty cool but I'm not fond of reclassing in the game so if I had it my way, all class skills would be locked. Personal skills are also pretty cool, provided everyone gets something.

[Leif]

Class-locked skills could be pretty cool but I'm not fond of reclassing in the game so if I had it my way, all class skills would be locked. Personal skills are also pretty cool, provided everyone gets something.

Yeah, if that large skill slot was for a personal skill, then I'd assume every playable character would get a unique skill so as to differentiate themselves from the other recruitable units. If I had my way, I would have that large skill slot for a locked personal skill. The rest of the skill slots would be for skills learned via leveling up, reading skill manuals, or reclassing. Those skills can be removed/swapped out.

I like the idea of personal skills because it can differentiate one unit from another. For example, on the Nohr side, we have those two cavaliers. Perhaps one has crappy base stats, but has the good growths personal skill where the other has another personal skill that allows him to have more movement. It gives two seemingly identical units a way to serve different roles.

However, I don't want to rule out the possibility of having that slot for a class-locked skill.

[euklyd]

I just want to have soldier class back if we can but then how can you parallel a soldier? Maybe they'll be unplayable again to keep it fair on both sides.

I mean it's not like foot soldiers with lances were unheard of in non-european contexts, as far as I know

[NekoKnight]

Yeah, if that large skill slot was for a personal skill, then I'd assume every playable character would get a unique skill so as to differentiate themselves from the other recruitable units. If I had my way, I would have that large skill slot for a locked personal skill. The rest of the skill slots would be for skills learned via leveling up, reading skill manuals, or reclassing. Those skills can be removed/swapped out.

I like the idea of personal skills because it can differentiate one unit from another. For example, on the Nohr side, we have those two cavaliers. Perhaps one has crappy base stats, but has the good growths personal skill where the other has another personal skill that allows him to have more movement. It gives two seemingly identical units a way to serve different roles.

However, I don't want to rule out the possibility of having that slot for a class-locked skill.

The fact that Kamui has 3 skills as a level 11 unpromoted unit makes me think that he got a bonus personal skill. 2 class skills plus the personal one? I guess as the Lord, all of his skills are personal skills.

[Cysx]

Ninjas to cavaliers look like a massive stretch to me. Outside of the possible Cain/Abel archetype, there really isn't much to defend here, since they are very unlikely to use the same weapons and have the same stats repartition. Besides, we see that cavalier guy being playable in what's likely a Hoshido chapter.

Also, I agree that having some parrallels is a neat thing, but too many would just make the two sides too samey.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Cysx

[euklyd]

And Marx and Ryouma (Possible Paladin and Swordmaster, respectively), who are possible Jeigans/Oifeys, mirror the trend of the Jeigan/Oifey being promoted forms of the Cain and Abel archetypes, assuming that's what Saizou and Greenie are. I could see Ninjas branching into Assassins or Samurai/Swordmasters/Lobsters/whatever Ryouma is.

I personally can't imagine Ryouma or Marx being a Jeigan anyways, especially when you have far more promising candidates for the positions.[spoiler=such as]

Marx / Ryouma seem far more likely to be late-/mid- game royal-ish characters, in my eyes (Innes, Minerva, Percival, etc.).

(It also seems unlikely that Hoshido wouldn't have regular old cavalry, but w/e.)

The fact that Kamui has 3 skills as a level 11 unpromoted unit makes me think that he got a bonus personal skill. 2 class skills plus the personal one? I guess as the Lord, all of his skills are personal skills.

there's no reason you can't have innate class skills, tho

I agree it's more likely to be a personal skill than a class skill, but I don't think level has much of a bearing on it

edit: added the first quote for context

Edited April 27, 2015 by Euklyd

[The Geek]

Ryouma is a swordmaster. His animations and overworld sprites are almost an exact copy of awakening's swordmasters. He could have a different class title, so he could be like a faux third-tier promotion?

I think it'll probably be like Walhart's Conqueror class. It's basically the exact same as Great Knight, just with different skills and a unique appearance.

And the Japanese had horses (at least at some point), I've seen plenty of pictures and even went to an exhibit about samurai armor that had horse armor. Maybe they'll be more analogous to the Nomad class tree from the Elibe games?

Edited April 27, 2015 by The Geek

[Ayra]

Samurais were originally horse archers. The Awakening horse archer actually had animations that matches traditional Japanese horseback archery (Yabusame), so I'm pretty confident we'll see it on Hoshido side.

For thieves, I think the Ninja might be the more appropriate parallel for Hoshido: If they don't have thieves, the ninjas are the most likely class to get those Unlock skills for example. It looks possible that we'll get the gray-haired cavalier on both routes too.

What I'm more wondering about is that all the more speedy classes seems to be all stacked on one side. For example, Pegasus is faster than Wyvern and same for Myrmidon-Mercenary. Ninja is very likely at least as fast as thief. The new mace fighter is probably faster than a regular fighter; at least Linca's damage was pretty low in both trailers even if we include the damage reduction from assist attacks, so it doesn't seem to be a pure "strength" class. We've seen a dark mage on the Nohr side (which are generally slow) and the new fan/card/ice rat throwing mage on the Hoshido side (unknown speed). Hoshido has archers which are generally at least mildly fast.

If we look at the other classes we've seen on the Nohr side, we have:

Knight

Great Knight

Dark Knight

Which are basically the slowest classes in the game.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Ayra

[NekoKnight]

What I'm more wondering about is that all the more speedy classes seems to be all stacked on one side. For example, Pegasus is faster than Wyvern and same for Myrmidon-Mercenary. Ninja is very likely at least as fast as thief. The new mace fighter is probably faster than a regular fighter; at least Linca's damage was pretty low in both trailers even if we include the damage reduction from assist attacks, so it doesn't seem to be a pure "strength" class. We've seen a dark mage on the Nohr side (which are generally slow) and the new fan/card/ice rat throwing mage on the Hoshido side (unknown speed). Hoshido has archers which are generally at least mildly fast.

If we look at the other classes we've seen on the Nohr side, we have:

Knight

Great Knight

Dark Knight

Which are basically the slowest classes in the game.

I think that's a pretty hasty conclusion to make. We have no idea about how Dual Strike damage is now calculated, the strength of her weapon nor the defense of the enemy. If the theories about your pair up partner having different stances (evidenced by there being a "Attack" window) is true, she could very well be in a defensive stance. But I digress.

As far as fast classes go, from what we've seen so far, Thieves are on the Nohr side and Archers on the Hoshido side so that's one subversion.

[Ayra]

I think that's a pretty hasty conclusion to make. We have no idea about how Dual Strike damage is now calculated, the strength of her weapon nor the defense of the enemy. If the theories about your pair up partner having different stances (evidenced by there being a "Attack" window) is true, she could very well be in a defensive stance. But I digress.

As far as fast classes go, from what we've seen so far, Thieves are on the Nohr side and Archers on the Hoshido side so that's one subversion.

Nah, it's definitively not a conclusion. It's just a theory, just like the rest of what's coming :). As you mentioned, it seems that there's multiple attack stances as seen in the trailer or this screenshot.

http://serenesforest.net/wp-content/gallery/april-2015-nintendo-direct/nohr4.jpg

Enemies of the same type often have similar stats (in previous FEs anyway). They are in attack mode, and the 2nd myrmidon has 50% damage (rounded down) of the attacking one. Looking at Kamui's side, the 50% seems to make sense too, if you consider that "Female-cavalier-with-fabulous-hair-and-pants-amazingly-enough" has a spear against sword units. If attack mode is 50% damage, I assume that units "Defense" mode will not attack at all (If the damage is less than 50%, is it even worth attacking?). If I remember my numbers well, we've seen Orochi hit a mage for 9 damage and Linca for 4. Unless Linca's damage was considered magical (which is possible since there was a fire "puff" on her attack), that's extremely low, especially for what we expect to be a "fighter-like" class.

That's why I think that Linca's class is more speed-based than a regular fighter. Can my theory be wrong? Definitively. I wouldn't gamble my life savings on it being right. But I feel that the thinking behind the theory is sound, at least.

Regarding Thief vs Archer, I think the comparison is more Thief vs Ninja. Ninja probably are the ones with the Thief utility (chest/door unlocks, possible movement boosts), so I feel that the comparison between thief and ninja is more accurate even if thieves uses bows. That's arguable, obviously :)

[AstraSage]

Regarding Thief vs Archer, I think the comparison is more Thief vs Ninja. Ninja probably are the ones with the Thief utility (chest/door unlocks, possible movement boosts), so I feel that the comparison between thief and ninja is more accurate even if thieves uses bows. That's arguable, obviously :)

And it's always good to keep in mind that the Bow-wielding "Thieves" doesn't use the same Japanese Class name given to the Thieves we know in the more recent entries, so the presence of the regular Sword-bearing version can't be ruled out as well as we can't rule out yet the possibility of the Bow-wielding Bandits/Hunters being an addition to keep the Archers as Hoshido Exclusive while Ninjas draw parallels to the Classic Thieves...

[VincentASM]

And it's always good to keep in mind that the Bow-wielding "Thieves" doesn't use the same Japanese Class name given to the Thieves we know in the more recent entries, so the presence of the regular Sword-bearing version can't be ruled out as well as we can't rule out yet the possibility of the Bow-wielding Bandits/Hunters being an addition to keep the Archers as Hoshido Exclusive while Ninjas draw parallels to the Classic Thieves...

Oh no, please... not that. That's like the old arguments saying the "Emblem of Fire" isn't the "Fire Emblem".

The bow thieves in FE if are clearly "Thief" in katakana [シーフ], while previous Thieves were also written in katakana [シーフ] (FE4/5) and/or kanji [盗賊] (FE6 onwards), both of which translate to "Thief". Even when the class name was 盗賊, the class roll always had their names as "Thief" in English*.

* Except FE10, where they were Rogues, but that's just a weird exception

Edited April 27, 2015 by VincentASM

[NekoKnight]

Nah, it's definitively not a conclusion. It's just a theory, just like the rest of what's coming :). As you mentioned, it seems that there's multiple attack stances as seen in the trailer or this screenshot.

http://serenesforest.net/wp-content/gallery/april-2015-nintendo-direct/nohr4.jpg

Enemies of the same type often have similar stats (in previous FEs anyway). They are in attack mode, and the 2nd myrmidon has 50% damage (rounded down) of the attacking one. Looking at Kamui's side, the 50% seems to make sense too, if you consider that "Female-cavalier-with-fabulous-hair-and-pants-amazingly-enough" has a spear against sword units. If attack mode is 50% damage, I assume that units "Defense" mode will not attack at all (If the damage is less than 50%, is it even worth attacking?). If I remember my numbers well, we've seen Orochi hit a mage for 9 damage and Linca for 4. Unless Linca's damage was considered magical (which is possible since there was a fire "puff" on her attack), that's extremely low, especially for what we expect to be a "fighter-like" class.

This is probably the best explanation for the low damage. Magical weapons aren't going to be effective against mages.

Looking at that screenshot, does it seem like your characters are a lot stronger than the enemy? 16 damage from Kamui and (if your calculation is correct) 18 damage/2 from the cavalier. Those numbers seem pretty high for low level weapons.

Edited April 27, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Tide of Waves]

Will Reclassing/Second Seals Return in FE: if since it was new to Awakening.?

Edited April 30, 2015 by Tide of Waves

[Bovinian]

I'm more inclined to believe that the big circle represents a personal skill, since generic enemies don't seem to have anything there (looking at the bow thief screenshot). If it represented a class-locked skill that bestowed an essential property on the unit, like OP's example of dark mages/sorcerers' innate Shadowgift, it wouldn't make sense for enemies of that class to not have it.

[nordopolica]

I'm more inclined to believe that the big circle represents a personal skill, since generic enemies don't seem to have anything there (looking at the bow thief screenshot). If it represented a class-locked skill that bestowed an essential property on the unit, like OP's example of dark mages/sorcerers' innate Shadowgift, it wouldn't make sense for enemies of that class to not have it.

The thief in that screenshot most definitely has a larger skill circle.

[Ryo]

The thief in that screenshot most definitely has a larger skill circle.

But the skill slot is empty. If it's a class-locked skill, then enemies should also have it.