Unit Optimization Thread

[zoned out]

Theres nothing wrong with playing it safe. Glad to help!

[Dämonplay]

You know I see one ptoblem with this thread. Becaude if the third path postgane isn't different from the others we will have to be careful bevause we won't be abke to max everyone. Because money and especially seals are rare and expensive. So my idea was to optimize certain teams and not certain characters.

[capmalachi]

You know I see one ptoblem with this thread. Becaude if the third path postgane isn't different from the others we will have to be careful bevause we won't be abke to max everyone. Because money and especially seals are rare and expensive. So my idea was to optimize certain teams and not certain characters.

In Hoshido, you get more money back from a random skirmish than it costs to start it, so while it would take a very long time you should be able to max everyone there. Hopefully the third path will work the same.

Besides I'm sure there will be some kind of grind DLC added at some point.

Edited July 3, 2015 by capmalachi

[Ebony]

I'm wondering who to pair Sakura with. Tsukuyomi?

[capmalachi]

I'm wondering who to pair Sakura with. Tsukuyomi?

Really, him, Subaki and a mag based Kamui are the only viable options for Sakura from an optimization standpoint. Everyone else gives more str than mag and so you'd end up with a really average kid who isn't really very good at anything. Unless you're talking third path, in which case Leo is also a pretty good choice.

[Dämonplay]

Really, him, Subaki and a mag based Kamui are the only viable options for Sakura from an optimization standpoint. Everyone else gives more str than mag and so you'd end up with a really average kid who isn't really very good at anything. Unless you're talking third path, in which case Leo is also a pretty good choice.

Nope Leo gets Hinoka. One royal has to marry one from the otzer kingdom at lesst for me. And as long as they are not part of the main team and their child isn't either we can forget optimization for a second xD

[Dämonplay]

In Hoshido, you get more money back from a random skirmish than it costs to start it, so while it would take a very long time you should be able to max everyone there. Hopefully the third path will work the same.

Besides I'm sure there will be some kind of grind DLC added at some point.

What I actually meant was, that some pairings are crossing parents. And to avoid taht I actually thought optimizing the main squad first and then the others if anyone has planned his team yet of course. But either way I like this thread and we are far from finished :)

[Bovinian]

With regards to optimizing Ophelia as a crit-stacking magic-user for PvP, I've been going over the mods from her prospective parents, and these were the two I found to be most favorable:

Any Route:

Sr/Mg/Sk/Sp/Lu/Df/Rs

Odin +0/+1/ -1/ -1/+1/+0/ -1

Felicia -2/+2/+0/+1/+0/ -1/+1

+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1

Felicia!Ophelia -1/+4/+0/+1/+2/+0/+1

Rather balanced. Provides a nice bit of magic, fixes Odin's lackluster skill mod and nets some speed in the bargain.

3rd Path

Sr/Mg/Sk/Sp/Lu/Df/Rs

Odin +0/+1/ -1/ -1/+1/+0/ -1

Orochi +0/+3/+2/ -2/ -1/ -2/+1

+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1

Orochi!Ophelia +1/+5/+2/-2/+1/ -1/+1

Here, she gets an excellent magic stat and a positive skill modifier which is great when considering many tome/spell-using classes have somewhat low skill.

The poor speed is a bit troubling though.

Also, as far as her skill set is concerned, I'm thinking of something like:

Blossoming Mind, Awakening, Vantage, Flamboyant, Ogre Strike, and either Vengeance or Breaking Sky

Basically, if she initiates the battle, she has +30 crit (Blossoming Mind + Ogre Strike).

If she's at less than half HP, she'll almost always attack first with +40 crit. (Blossoming Mind, Awakening, Vantage)

And if she initiates the battle at less than half HP, her crit goes up to +60.

I'm estimating that between her weapon being forged for crit and the base skill/2 value being added to her critical hit rate, that the sum of these two values will effectively neutralize the enemy's luck which would otherwise detract from her critical hit rate.

Any suggestions with regards to parentage or skills would be appreciated!

(Odin's Skill mod is actually +1 and not -1.)

This is what I have for a crit-stacking Ophelia build so far:

Nyx!Ophelia

Mods: +1 Str / +5 Mag / +0 Skl / +2 Spd / +1 Lck / -1 Def / +1 Res

Relevant caps as a Sorcerer: 40 Mag, 26 Skill, 31 Speed

Base crit rate from skill: 11

Sorcerer class crit bonus: +10

Weapon: Excalibur (12 Mt, 90 Hit, 25 Crit, +5 to both user and enemy's ability to double attack)

Skills:

[blossoming Mind]: Crit +10

Vantage (inherent access to Samurai)

Awakening: Crit (and other stuff) +30 when under half HP (Great Lord DLC)

Line of Death: +10 damage done, +10 damage received (inherent access to Weapon Master)

Roundhouse: Crit +10 (Nyx can A+ support with Charlotte to get Fighter and pass this skill down)

Swallow Strike: +5 to user's ability to double attack when initiating battle (mostly filler, can be gotten by Marriage Sealing with Shigure. Either this or Raven Strike)

Total crit from all of these combined = 11 + 10 + 25 + 10 + 30 + 10 = 96 Crit

As for damage, 40 Mag + 12 Mt + 10 (Line of Death) = 62 Atk, plus whatever the weapon rank bonus is when not under WTD, so there shouldn't be any issues OHKOing if a crit happens. The bigger issue is hit rate...

If Arthur's Unlucky Soul works from the back, he can be Ophelia's Guard Stance support to give her an extra +15 Crit as well as patch up her Skill and Speed (as a Brave Hero).

The hardest part is to actually get under half HP, because Sorcerer Ophelia is probably prone to getting ORKOed. Sorcerer's speed cap is terrible so Ophelia is also prone to getting doubled. My idea is to engage a fight against an enemy who can do more than 50% HP damage to Ophelia in one attack (shouldn't be hard with Line of Death), but make sure Ophelia can double the enemy so they end up dead after hitting her once. Swallow Strike combined with Excalibur should make this possible even with Sorcerer Ophelia's mediocre speed. This fails if Ophelia ends up OHKO critting the enemy to death before they can hit her, but oh well.

Has a lot of flaws and is not the best Vantage crit build by any means, but it's the best I've got so far.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Bovinian

[capmalachi]

What I actually meant was, that some pairings are crossing parents. And to avoid taht I actually thought optimizing the main squad first and then the others if anyone has planned his team yet of course. But either way I like this thread and we are far from finished :)

Oh right, in that case yeah I agree. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made. I'm actually going to be pairing up Sakura with Silas and jakob with Rinkah. Not optimal at all, but they were basically left over after I worked out the others. I might rearrange Silas with someone else because Sophie can actually be pretty good, we'll see.

[Tactless Tactician]

(Odin's Skill mod is actually +1 and not -1.)

My mistake. So all of the resultant pairings have +2 skill...

Sorcerer class crit bonus: +10

How/when was it revealed that the Sorcerer class has inherent crit? Do other classes possess a similar property?

[Ebony]

Really, him, Subaki and a mag based Kamui are the only viable options for Sakura from an optimization standpoint. Everyone else gives more str than mag and so you'd end up with a really average kid who isn't really very good at anything. Unless you're talking third path, in which case Leo is also a pretty good choice.

Subaki's sounds interesting. PLUS Matoi would look lovely with her hair imo. Let's see what they'd get then...

Priestess, Pegasus Warrior, and then Samurai?

[Bovinian]

How/when was it revealed that the Sorcerer class has inherent crit? Do other classes possess a similar property?

People over in the Classes thread have been saying this based on (encoded) in-game data, and from just looking at crit rates of Sorcerers. It seems like all the weapon specializing classes have +10 inherent crit, except Berserker who apparently has +20 inherent crit o_o

On that note, it's actually pretty easy for a berserker Charlotte to reach 100% crit, especially against female units. Problem is she can't do a Vantage build with it because she's locked to 1 range.

[capmalachi]

Subaki's sounds interesting. PLUS Matoi would look lovely with her hair imo. Let's see what they'd get then...

Priestess, Pegasus Warrior, and then Samurai?

Yep, and then you can A+ her to Syalla to get spellcaster to really bring out her magical potential.

[Morgan]

Hey should I add the google doc with the A+ supports list to the front?

[Dämonplay]

Hey should I add the google doc with the A+ supports list to the front?

yeah good idea

[Ebony]

Alright for Matoi then, let's see...

Sakura x Subaki

Breaking Sky

Vantage

Renewal

Magic Counter?

Soar/Sun God

???

[astrophys]

So, Matoi has an A+ option with Shara/Syalla?

Is this confirmed…

Interesting…

I comment on that given that some Matoi's actually end up with better magic mods than strength mods (not that hard when her father is -1 Str, +0 Mag), with the catch that her magic growth rate is low (15) and her father's is 20.

But assuming infinite grinding and stat boosters/hypothetical grind DLC (if it comes out)/the level cap raising seals, etc., she might technically have stats better suited to magic using than physical.

Another example: 3rd route Luna!Matoi gets -1 str, +1 magic, because both parents have -1 Str and +0 Mag and then the child bonus kicks in. (Luna's magic growth rate is terrible, that said, so magical Matoi would not be something expected in regular 20/20 play).

If she can get Spellcaster off of Shara, then that would mean that she can pick up Tomefaire, as well as use a caster class.

Oh, and I've noticed… faires just increase damage in this game… they don't increase magic/strength in this game (directly), do they? This means that they synergize great with Prodigy, as they let Matoi amp her damage output in whatever weapon she's taken the faire in without necessarily losing the Prodigy bonus she would have had before against the same enemy.

Edited July 3, 2015 by astrophys

[capmalachi]

Alright for Matoi then, let's see...

Sakura x Subaki

Breaking Sky

Vantage

Renewal

Magic Counter?

Soar/Sun God

???

Depends on the class you plan to use, but if you want to go full magic then maybe grab tomefaire. Also sun god is way better than soar.

So, Matoi has an A+ option with Shara/Syalla?

it'd certainly make sense given who they are. And yeah, despite her low growth, I'm pretty much taking it for granted that Matoi should end up as a magic unit, there may not be a huge difference between her str and mag caps, but it's there and there's no reason to fight against it by trying to force her in to a physical class.

[Morgan]

According to a pic that Vincent saw on third path leaks, it looks like grinding will work similarly to Hoshido. Pay for skirmish and profit. This makes me happy because I actually LOVE maxing out units :)

[Tactless Tactician]

People over in the Classes thread have been saying this based on (encoded) in-game data, and from just looking at crit rates of Sorcerers. It seems like all the weapon specializing classes have +10 inherent crit, except Berserker who apparently has +20 inherent crit o_o

On that note, it's actually pretty easy for a berserker Charlotte to reach 100% crit, especially against female units. Problem is she can't do a Vantage build with it because she's locked to 1 range.

That's crazy! Hmm... So besides Sorcerers and Berserkers the other classes that would be affected are: Trueblades, Holy Lancers, Holy Bowmen, and possibly Nine-tailed Fox/Managarm if stone-users are included as well.

Would this also extend to Elite Ninja as they can S-rank Hidden weapons, or not, since they have access to two weapon types?

Also, I was attempting to craft a dodge/tank PvP build for Deere as his personal skill gives +20 Hit/Avoid and +2 Damage, -2 Damage reduction in 'My Castle'. Since Trueblade has among the highest speed and luck caps among the classes, I calculated the results of a Jakob x Hana pairing to be as follows:

Sr/Mg/Sk/Sp/Lu/Df/Rs

Jakob +2/ -2/+2/+0/ -1/+0/ -1

Hana +1/+0/+1/+2/ -1/ -3/+1

+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1

Hana!Deere +4/ -1/+4/+3/ -1/ -2/+1

Trueblade Caps + 30/28/32/35/33/27/31

34/27/36/38/32/25/32

From what I could see, the only way to get the Samurai base class onto Deere (aside from Kamui) would be to pair Jakob with Hana.

Despite the negative luck mod, Deere does well enough in the speed department.

Using Awakening's Hit/Avoid calculations as a baseline, base Avoid is usually (Speed x 3) + (Luck/2) with the addition of any relevant support bonuses.

So that would come out to 130 base Avoid.

Then I was thinking his prospective skillset would be something like:

-Butler's Feat (+20 Hit/Avoid)

-Underdog (+15 Hit/Avoid provided his level is less than his opponent's)

-Lucky Seven (+20 Hit/Avoid for 7 turns)

-Kunaibreaker (to compensate for WTD)

-Lancebreaker (to compensate for WTD)

-???

I'm uncertain whether to give him a proc (Breaking Sky would hit 57% activation), or Axebreaker as a little extra insurance against Berserkers.

Or would I be better off scrapping this idea altogether?

Oh, and I've noticed… faires just increase damage in this game… they don't increase magic/strength in this game (directly), do they? This means that they synergize great with Prodigy, as they let Matoi amp her damage output in whatever weapon she's taken the faire in without necessarily losing the Prodigy bonus she would have had before against the same enemy.

That's an intriguing observation. Perhaps I'll start tinkering around with skills that increase her damage in the midst of combat (like Line of Death etc) that don't actually influence her attacking stat.

For instance, the Dread Fighter skill Aggressor (assuming class access is no longer gender-locked) could be beneficial as it boosts Damage by 7 when the user triggers the battle, as opposed to Awakening where it "increases the user's attack rating by 10 when the user initiates the battle".

Although 'Damage' and 'attack rating' could mean the same thing, unless someone who translated it would be certain otherwise...

[capmalachi]

According to a pic that Vincent saw on third path leaks, it looks like grinding will work similarly to Hoshido. Pay for skirmish and profit. This makes me happy because I actually LOVE maxing out units :)

Same here, I've wasted so much time in awakening getting my units to be as good as possible. Hardly even use them when I get them there lol.

Edited July 3, 2015 by capmalachi

[astrophys]

Well, certain characters can still tip Matoi to the physical side… even a +1 str and -1 magic, or a +2 strength and -0 Magic combination would be enough to make her end up with more strength than magic.

Example: Hinoka (+1 str, -1 Magic) turns Matoi into a +1 strength, +0 magic unit. Whereas Luna turns her into a -1 str, +1 magic unit.

But of course, Matoi's mods are inherently biased to magic from her father, as he penalizes her strength by 1 but does nothing to her magic. But its only a slight bias that can easily be shifted.

As for my observation about Prodigy: be warned that I don't actually have the game, so I'm basing this entry on the descriptions in the information that the admins have been posting on the Fates page for obtainable skill descriptions. If their descriptions are incorrect for some reason, I'd be incorrect as well. But it does seem reasonable.

Edited July 3, 2015 by astrophys

[Dämonplay]

(Odin's Skill mod is actually +1 and not -1.)

This is what I have for a crit-stacking Ophelia build so far:

Nyx!Ophelia

Mods: +1 Str / +5 Mag / +0 Skl / +2 Spd / +1 Lck / -1 Def / +1 Res

Relevant caps as a Sorcerer: 40 Mag, 26 Skill, 31 Speed

Base crit rate from skill: 11

Sorcerer class crit bonus: +10

Weapon: Excalibur (12 Mt, 90 Hit, 25 Crit, +5 to both user and enemy's ability to double attack)

Skills:

[blossoming Mind]: Crit +10

Vantage (inherent access to Samurai)

Awakening: Crit (and other stuff) +30 when under half HP (Great Lord DLC)

Line of Death: +10 damage done, +10 damage received (inherent access to Weapon Master)

Roundhouse: Crit +10 (Nyx can A+ support with Charlotte to get Fighter and pass this skill down)

Swallow Strike: +5 to user's ability to double attack when initiating battle (mostly filler, can be gotten by Marriage Sealing with Shigure. Either this or Raven Strike)

Total crit from all of these combined = 11 + 10 + 25 + 10 + 30 + 10 = 96 Crit

As for damage, 40 Mag + 12 Mt + 10 (Line of Death) = 62 Atk, plus whatever the weapon rank bonus is when not under WTD, so there shouldn't be any issues OHKOing if a crit happens. The bigger issue is hit rate...

If Arthur's Unlucky Soul works from the back, he can be Ophelia's Guard Stance support to give her an extra +15 Crit as well as patch up her Skill and Speed (as a Brave Hero).

The hardest part is to actually get under half HP, because Sorcerer Ophelia is probably prone to getting ORKOed. Sorcerer's speed cap is terrible so Ophelia is also prone to getting doubled. My idea is to engage a fight against an enemy who can do more than 50% HP damage to Ophelia in one attack (shouldn't be hard with Line of Death), but make sure Ophelia can double the enemy so they end up dead after hitting her once. Swallow Strike combined with Excalibur should make this possible even with Sorcerer Ophelia's mediocre speed. This fails if Ophelia ends up OHKO critting the enemy to death before they can hit her, but oh well.

Has a lot of flaws and is not the best Vantage crit build by any means, but it's the best I've got so far.

I don't wanna ruin everytjing butvawakening is limited to amiibo

[capmalachi]

Well, certain characters can still tip Matoi to the physical side… even a +1 str and -1 magic, or a +2 strength and -0 Magic combination would be enough to make her end up with more strength than magic.

Example: Hinoka (+1 str, -1 Magic) turns Matoi into a +1 strength, +0 magic unit. Whereas Luna turns her into a -1 str, +1 magic unit.

But of course, Matoi's mods are inherently biased to magic from her father, as he penalizes her strength by 1 but does nothing to her magic. But its only a slight bias that can easily be shifted.

Yes, but even if it is a small difference, you're still working against a natural str loss, rather than using that mother to boost a natural str bonus on another unit. While you certainly could make a decent physical Matoi, and I probably will myself once or twice, it's not what I'd consider to be the best use of the natural talents.

Edited July 3, 2015 by capmalachi

[Bovinian]

I don't think healing skills like Renewal and Sun God will be very useful for offense-oriented units in pvp to be honest. When you're facing enemies that have similar stats to your own units, everyone does too much damage to each other for 20% or 30% healing to make a significant survivability difference. Especially since they happen at the beginning of player phase, which is not very good timing for self-healing. It's a very different situation from when you're fighting a large number of enemies weaker than you are in-game.

I don't wanna ruin everytjing butvawakening is limited to amiibo

Female units will have access to the Great Lord class when the Awakening DLC is released. To be fair, the Great Lord seal or whatever it's called will only be available in limited numbers so we'd have to choose who gets it carefully.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Bovinian