Would you have been happier if all three routes were one game? (spoilers)

[kaldson0]

Im fine with how it is now it would feel weird and kinda destroy the point of three paths.

[arvilino]

I think nobody would say they wouldn't be happier if they had to pay much less for the exact same thing. However I don't believe I'd be happier with the sort of game they'd produce if it all was just one game because there's certainly atleast two new game's worth stuff across the games and you benefit form having access to the new classes even if you only buy one.

In terms of handheld Fire Emblems you only just have to look at Blazing Sword, Sacred Stones and New Mystery to see how much recycling a handheld sequel typically involves. I honestly wouldn't believe a £35 or $40 three route all included Fire Emblem: Fates would have IS and Nintendo Justify a lot of the things they did add.

with 28 chapters and some paralogues exclusive for each campaign, which means more than 50 maps(exclusive chapters and paralogues) developed that some players will never play in a base game and no one has to pay extra for them doesn't seem realistic.

[ReaperGuardian]

I personally have a strong opinion on this matter and I feel inclined to give my 2 cents.

To answer the question: Yes, not only my wallet but I would've been happier if at least Nohr and Hoshido were in one game. Only if the third path is the 'Golden path' / 'Canon path', then I would've been happier if it was included in the vanilla game as well. From what I've heard so far, the third path may fill in plot holes in the other two games. If that is true, then from a narrative point of view, the third path had to be in the vanilla game in my opinion.

What I mean with a narrative point of view, is that you experience a full and comprehensive story, preferably without too many plot-holes, when you play the game. The thing with Fire Emblem Fates is, that you can't fully experience the story because you have to choose a side. When you do, you miss the other point(s) from the other side. However, with Fire Emblem Fates you can't fully experience the story, because you have to pay if you wish to experience the other side. From a narrative point of view, you'll always be left with (many) questions because you only experienced one side and only one point of view.

Let's say you only have budget for one game and don't want to look up the story of the other side on the internet. You'll always miss the other point of view, and thus experience only half a story. Even stronger, as Nexas said before me, the game was advertised to make a choice between choosing sides. Instead, you have to make the choice which game you buy to experience said story.

And after you did, you don't have the choice anymore to experience the other point of view, because you have to pay for that. Why present it that you have the power to choose both sides whilst in reality you have to choose a certain (and perhaps only one) side?

As far as I can tell, FEFates is capitalizing on the Pokemon structure, not the DLC moneygrubbing phenomenon.

I respectfully disagree with you regarding the bolded. The thing with Pokemon is, wether you buy Pokemon A or pokemon B, the story is the same, albeit with slight/ minor differences. Not only that, the point of Pokemon Red and Blue was, iirc, that you could trade the Pokemon you couldn't catch in one game with other people who had the other version. Regardless of which version you bought, the story would be the same. You would still experience all points of view and the narrative would remain the same. That isn't the thing with Fire Emblem Fates, as the Nohr campaign is vastly different than the Hoshido campaign.

I won't fully understand Xander's motives when I play the Hoshido version or Ryoma's respectively when I play the Norh campaign. The narrative is incomplete and will remain so unless you pay for it.

That is why, in my opinion at least, Fire Emblem Fates can't be compared to the Pokemon structure.

Then we have the third route. The best thing in my opinion IS could do as fanservice in the game, is to give us the option to choose this path after we completed the Nohr and Hishido campaigns. Why? Because IF I should believe the stories, the third path fills in the other (but important!) plot holes the other two games couldn't fill in for whatever reasons. This means the third path actually completes the story as a whole. But you also have to pay for it! That just feels wrong to me, what is the point of selling us two, no, three different paths if each path is necessary to complete the narrative and the story. To me, with respect of other opinions, it feels like they just want to make extra money, even if you get a discount for all the other paths.

So that would conclude my opinion that I would feel happier if all three paths were concluded in one game. Even if it they would have to sacrifice other (fanservicy?) components of the game, as long as it wouldn't damage the story, then I would be (more) content. Because then, I experienced a full story. It would give me a complete feeling. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel entitled to it. I would merely feel happier :). Instead of throwing money at all three different paths that complete the story.

[xaszatm]

Honestly, the comparisons to Pokemon are misguided. The better comparison is the Zelda Oracle games. Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons shared many assets between the two and was supposed to have a third game as well (but didn't pan out). Despite that, both games were separate stories that were connected. As such, no, I have absolutely no problem paying twice (though I'm getting a limited edition when it comes to the states) or even three times for all three campaigns. Because all three campaigns are different. I'm not paying for 3 thirds of a game which each third full price. I'm paying for 3 full games that are interconnected.

[B.Leu]

Yeah, but only just a little. I'll still be pissed at the game for giving me a probably canon golden love&rainbow ending.

Edited July 7, 2015 by B.Leu

[Pepper]

Yeah, but only just a little. I'll still be pissed at the game for giving me a probably canon golden love&rainbow ending.

Well are you surprised? alot of JRPGs expect for (DRAKENGARD you earn its bad endings) have the golden path but where you earn it in most other games you need to buy it in Fates case. Which really bugs me I have the code for the 3rd but I'm still kinda bugged IS pulled this stunt I mean I've seen worse but this is still pretty bad.

[Pretty_Handsome]

Here's my 3 major problems with the concept of paths and how Intellegent Systems messed things up in my opinion:

1) The game is advertised as a game about choice, so why is an entire half of a game locked behind a paywall?

2) To make matters worse, there's also the 3rd route "DLC" that should be in the game in the first place.

The reason these 2 are problems brings me to number 3:

3) Not only was a double pack planned BEFORE the release of the game, making the concept of it being 2 games locked behind a paywall worthless because we know for a fact that there's to be another version of the game with both Hoshido and Nohr already unlocked, but the third path was announced before the release of the game, meaning Intellegent Systems knew it was going to be there from the getgo. I seriously hate DLC practices like this, and to me, only shows that the company is trying to make a cheap buck off of something that should already be in the game in the first place.

An example of great DLC practices are with Mario Kart 8 and Super Smash Bros. 4, where all this DLC was planned after the game's release, because the DLC was an afterthought, and not important to the game's development.

You simply do not lock the full experience via a paywall. You don't require the Roy, Ryu, and Lucas DLC for the whole experience, you don't require that x 1.50 of new content that the Mario Kart 8 DLC gives you to have the full experience. DLC should enhance the experience, not be an integrel part of it.

To me, the alternate route you buy and the third route are not DLC, but rather locked content that you have to buy just for the sake of making the game a bit more expensive.

I agree, I'm still angry about it that I may just get only Birthright only.

What's more scumbaggery is hiding Gale Force behind DLC in a game where they're focusing ever more on multiplayer.

P2W.

[B.Leu]

Well are you surprised? alot of JRPGs expect for (DRAKENGARD you earn its bad endings) have the golden path but where you earn it in most other games you need to buy it in Fates case. Which really bugs me I have the code for the 3rd but I'm still kinda bugged IS pulled this stunt I mean I've seen worse but this is still pretty bad.

I really should play Drakengard, I heard nothing but praise about it. but Nier scares me because you-know-what. Yeah, I spoiled myself.

True art is angsty as tvtropes would say, and I agree, thing is, my heart can't take it when it's too much. :/

For If, seriously, they made a big deal about the choices you'll take, which is stupid and a total BS from the get go, as you might as well choose between the pest and the cholera, but they take it even further by basically making the Nohr/Hoshido path the bad endings a la FE6 by giving us the Third golden path, that you'll have to buy. And apparently writing them like crap.

I said it before, and I said it again, I didn't expected that kind of douchebaggery from IS.

Edited July 7, 2015 by B.Leu

[Thane]

I agree with what has already been said in the longer posts: I feel as if they're trying everything to sell you more. While it's certainly true that you don't HAVE to buy more than one route, the majority of fans most likely will do that in order to get access to all the characters, maps, difficulty levels and story.

However, the main problem is that without the third path, the story has about as many holes as a Swiss cheese, and for those of us who play games primarily for the story, or at least think it's a very important aspect of a game, it feels as if though we've been tricked. Keep in mind that the third route can't be bought separately, so it's not a coincidence that it's the one with all the answers; you have to pay extra to play the most important part. On a story level, the original routes simply aren't complete games, and I have a feeling that if one could buy the third path on its own, there would be very little need for the other two.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Thane

[BBM]

Each separate game isn't THE full game, but it is A full game, at least in terms of game play. I think that financially, it's more than fair for them to split the games into two and require us to pay extra for the DLC 3rd route, especially as you get either Hoshido or Nohr discounted too.

I do think that it cheapens the entire "choice" aspect that they hyped a lot, and also maybe doesn't provide a full story. I think if it was possible for them to sell all three games at once in one cartridge at the price they would be if you bought them all (~$100 bucks or whatever), that would be the best. But I'm unsure that there's enough space on one cartridge for that. Consider that in Awakening they didn't even think they had space for feet in the character models.

Edited July 7, 2015 by BBM

[NeonZ]

They could include the routes in a single cartdrige, but it likely would need to be a bigger one than usual (IIRC, the special edition itself has a bigger one too), which would also increase production costs, not only the development cost itself.

In general though, I think their big mistake here is making the 3rd route the definitive one as far as character selection goes. They should have taken some inspiration from the Pokemon selection in the Pokemon third versions. It's generally better than in the original ones, but doesn't actually include almost everything from both.

However, the main problem is that without the third path, the story has about as many holes as a Swiss cheese, and for those of us who play games primarily for the story, or at least think it's a very important aspect of a game, it feels as if though we've been tricked.

You do know about those coded texts with the Hydra's backstory, the three prophecies and the royal family lineages, right? There's more backstory and information in one of the routes, without the opposite side or DLC than in Awakening where Grima never even had a proper origin.

(3rd path spoilers)

The only spoiler that's really left unanswered in the base game and is kept for the 3rd side is regarding Aqua's father, but it turns out that his identity would be mostly unimportant in the other routes anyway.

Edited July 7, 2015 by NeonZ

[Lord of Riva]

Thats not how game devepment works guys. all three routes together are equal to 3 games (some people say they share the same assets but thats a moot point, that was the case with the three GBA games as well)

there is no "milking" going on. If you produce something you want to get profit from it, thats how capitalism works (im no friend of that, but thats something else to discuss) as long as we adhere to these rules:

more content = higher sell value = higher profit.

its the same as if you buy a Bigmac instead of a cheesburger. or do you think the cheeseburger is missing content?

all in all i feel the DLC is handled well on that game 3 "full" routes and only one is full price, the others are cheaper. Not likely to see that anywhere else backed by a major publisher.

Im jnust importinmg a 3ds with Nohr if and will buy the Special edition when it arrives here (if not then it will be per dlc *shrug*).

this argument of Day one content locked out is just false. i Mean okay there are shady things going on with some of the major Publishers (EA etc.) who do that. Google it, it has been proven false, also i work in the industry myself... thats really not how it works (dont believe me, its fine, not going out of my way prooving it, you could prolly look it up though)

but here it was marketed from the start that this here was the case. Not only do we get 2 (3) stories instead of one but a lot of other content (a huge amount of new classes, revised mechanics etc.).

nobody forces anyone to buy it, if you are a fan and you think you get "forced" thats your own imagined problem.

that said, we could debate about pricing, i still think that the prices for the major routes DLC is fine. im not too fond on the cost of the minor DLC (as we had in awakening)

[NeonZ]

Do we know the cost of the standalone maps already, or are you just assuming that it'll be similar to Awakening's?

Edited July 7, 2015 by NeonZ

[Lord of Riva]

Do we know the cost of the standalone maps already, or are you just assuming that it'll be similar to Awakening's?

oh yes sorry, just assuming :)

will get my fates in a week and half :P

i just didnt like the prices there

[Glitchy]

Yes. Actually I thought at first that was what it was going to be like.

[Pepper]

Thats not how game devepment works guys. all three routes together are equal to 3 games (some people say they share the same assets but thats a moot point, that was the case with the three GBA games as well)

there is no "milking" going on. If you produce something you want to get profit from it, thats how capitalism works (im no friend of that, but thats something else to discuss) as long as we adhere to these rules:

more content = higher sell value = higher profit.

its the same as if you buy a Bigmac instead of a cheesburger. or do you think the cheeseburger is missing content?

all in all i feel the DLC is handled well on that game 3 "full" routes and only one is full price, the others are cheaper. Not likely to see that anywhere else backed by a major publisher.

Im jnust importinmg a 3ds with Nohr if and will buy the Special edition when it arrives here (if not then it will be per dlc *shrug*).

this argument of Day one content locked out is just false. i Mean okay there are shady things going on with some of the major Publishers (EA etc.) who do that. Google it, it has been proven false, also i work in the industry myself... thats really not how it works (dont believe me, its fine, not going out of my way prooving it, you could prolly look it up though)

but here it was marketed from the start that this here was the case. Not only do we get 2 (3) stories instead of one but a lot of other content (a huge amount of new classes, revised mechanics etc.).

nobody forces anyone to buy it, if you are a fan and you think you get "forced" thats your own imagined problem.

that said, we could debate about pricing, i still think that the prices for the major routes DLC is fine. im not too fond on the cost of the minor DLC (as we had in awakening)

I work in gaming as well and I really hate how DLC is Day 1 DLC is awful and only hurts the gamers, Fates should of been one game while I enjoy Fates it still stands that they could of easily put the 3 as one game and I still stand by that as it is now that the game feels cut.

[Moradon]

The pricing is fair from a gameplay perspective, but not from a story perspective. Everything we've seen has shown that Fates has a ton of content, at least 2.5 times more than Awakening. It makes sense to charge more when you're getting that much from it.

The issue is simply the fact that the story suffers as a result since the third route is clearly the golden path that ties everything up. And you don't really get a full sense of the characters unless you play all three routes. The story is sacrificed for gameplay, which can be a good or bad thing depending on your preference.

[Kyneme]

I get the point in regards to the storyline here but it feels like a few are overlooking the basis on which they developed the two (initial?) versions. While the mechanics are similar, the goals are quite different. They structured both versions around their fans (Awakening and pre-Awakening). There's enough content in each of them to warrant as their own game but you're going to argue that you need all three to experience the full story, then for every game out there that you're a protagonist, you should be able to play as the antagonist as well to see their perspective.

[Lord of Riva]

I work in gaming as well and I really hate how DLC is Day 1 DLC is awful and only hurts the gamers, Fates should of been one game while I enjoy Fates it still stands that they could of easily put the 3 as one game and I still stand by that as it is now that the game feels cut.

We should just not forget that this is a decision for profit, but you cannot say its unwarranted to get more money out of a bigger product? *Shrug*

if you make a snake clone youll probably sell it for less as if you made GTA5 right? whats the difference here? (apart from the exxaggeration)

[Dark Holy Elf]

It sounds like we got at least two games' worth of content, which I'm pretty ecstatic about. Anyone thinking that they should have gotten all this content for the price of one game is dreaming. One game that cost $80-100, perhaps, but I doubt people would be happier about that. (I know I wouldn't be.)

Maybe people would have been happier with another Path of Radiance or Shadow Dragon/New Mystery again, i.e. one normal-to-short-length FE game at full price, but what they actually went with sounds more interesting to me.

Also I don't get the problem with Day 1 DLC? It's optional content. You can buy it if you feel it is worth it, or not if you don't. Mario Kart 8's tracks were released after the game itself (which has a lot more to do with marketing strategies to keep the game relevant months after its release rather than any sort of "favour" to gamers) but would you really complain if they had been available day 1? They would still be tracks beyond the number that had been in any previous Mario Kart, so you can't call them content that were cut from the main game for DLC purposes, but rather content that was only created for DLC purposes.

[Pepper]

We should just not forget that this is a decision for profit, but you cannot say its unwarranted to get more money out of a bigger product? *Shrug*

if you make a snake clone youll probably sell it for less as if you made GTA5 right? whats the difference here? (apart from the exxaggeration)

I know how it is but I feel that were pushing it to much now when it comes to DLC people are getting fed up now.

[ReaperGuardian]

I agree with you guys to the point that a company can sell two games if the content in each of them can be warranted as their own game. However should they do so, a customer can also expect a fully, completed game, that stands out on itself. A game not only filled in content by gameplay, but also story, characters and characterisation, etc etc. That is the least you can expect from a legal perspective, as the company offers you a fully completed game and you accept it by buying it.

Now what exactly is a fully, completed game? I think that is a game filled with lots of finished gameplay aspects, a fully written story that stands out on itself, finished characters and their personalities (preferable original and not rehashed ones), and so on.

Now let's take the two versions of Fire Emblem Fates as an example. The thing with Fire Emblem Fates is, that neither the Hoshido or the Nohr campaign can stand out on its own, because you need one another to fill up the story, the characters, and so on. You'll see an angry Xander in one version, and a happy Xander in the other. Why? The game explains it, but you have to buy it.

Sure, the game may offer so much content as you can expect from a different game, for example Fire Emblem Awakening.

However, from what I see is that the Nohr and the Hoshido campaign lack (at least) one thing to be a fully, completed game, which is a complete story that fills up all the plot holes. But they don't, as the other campaign is necessary to fill in certain plot holes and to complete the story. Granted, there must be some games that also have plot holes which aren't filled, I can't come up with one right now, but I'm sure there is at least one. Practically, such a plot hole won't be something as "You chose to side with faction X, how would it have been if you chose faction Y?". Because in Fates, you don't have that choice as you bought one version of the game.

Or sometimes a sequel fills in said plot hole, or it is left out as it is something minor. A writer's mistake, so to say.

This isn't the case with Fire Emblem Fates, yet IS wants you to pay for all the paths which in my opinion, can't stand out on their own.

And that simply dissappoints me and I think IS should've done something differently than the path the chose with Fates.

Alas, they didn't.

About the day 1 DLC policy, in my experience it often comes down to milking more money from gamers. I have seen games which had day 1 DLC, which was actually content that had to be in the main game. So I'm quite wary to such policies and I prefer it if companies wouldn't reside to such strategies. Then again, how do you stop it? Big chiefs of companies see only $$$ or €€€ or so they say.

EDIT: Typos

Edited July 7, 2015 by ReaperGuardian

[Thane]

The thing about the third path isn't that it explains a major thing or two that the other routes didn't, because that would've been totally fair - the problem is that it's the path that explains EVERYTHING and involves several desirable gameplay elements as well which I won't mention in case someone doesn't want that spoiled. Once it's released, I won't bother playing through Nohr or Hoshido again because there simply won't be a point aside from the challenge of Conquest.

As for day one DLC, just like most forms of DLC, can be either good or bad. There are cosmetic DLC which are there because the developers had time to work on it before it was released (I'm unsure about the specifics, but the game has to be ready for a while before it's released, correct?), and then there are day one DLC like "From the Ashes" in Mass Effect 3, where they cut out a very, very important part of the game which felt mandatory for the complete experience.

[NeonZ]

Now let's take the two versions of Fire Emblem Fates as an example. The thing with Fire Emblem Fates is, that neither the Hoshido or the Nohr campaign can stand out on its own, because you need one another to fill up the story, the characters, and so on. You'll see an angry Xander in one version, and a happy Xander in the other. Why? The game explains it, but you have to buy it.

That's a pretty bad example. You'll have an allied Xander in Nohr while you'll have an angry Xander in Hoshido for reasons that are completely obvious in each game itself. Yeah, you won't know why his behavior is different in the opposite version with a different stoyline... but that's kind of obvious, right? It's another story and another circumstances, it's not like the stories will be crossing over and you'll have no idea of what's going on without playing the other version.

You also mention Awakening - you know, the game that didn't even bother giving an origin for this dark dragon that appears out of nowhere and is apparently more powerful than Naga, alongside many other changes in the setting that were left extremely vague, like the Fire Emblem working differently. Yet, it wasn't setting up a sequel or DLC to explain all that. It just remained unexplained.

Granted, there must be some games that also have plot holes which aren't filled, I can't come up with one right now, but I'm sure there is at least one.

Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance? It had obvious sequel hooks, like for example, Sothe's "parent" figure that he mentions in his supports, and it was searching for that person that he met Ike's group, or the Black Knight and his Goddess blessed armor and weapon that came seemingly out of nowhere, as well as his unexplained ties to Ike's father. There were also a few npcs that were introduced there but had no real role until the sequel.

The thing about the third path isn't that it explains a major thing or two that the other routes didn't, because that would've been totally fair - the problem is that it's the path that explains EVERYTHING and involves several desirable gameplay elements as well which I won't mention in case someone doesn't want that spoiled.

Most big revelations are in the My Castle library though, even if the characters don't learn about them in the main story itself of Nohr and Hoshido. The third path's exclusive revelations that fill in holes in the other paths, and aren't already spoilered by the library are relatively minor in comparison.

[Garnef]

I get the point in regards to the storyline here but it feels like a few are overlooking the basis on which they developed the two (initial?) versions. While the mechanics are similar, the goals are quite different. They structured both versions around their fans (Awakening and pre-Awakening). There's enough content in each of them to warrant as their own game but you're going to argue that you need all three to experience the full story, then for every game out there that you're a protagonist, you should be able to play as the antagonist as well to see their perspective.

This is a game advertised around choice though, meaning this game specifically is a case of "you need to play both paths to get the full experience." Yes, not every game is like this, but this game in particular, where it was described a "game where choice actually matters," it doesn't seem like good design at all to lock those other 2 choices behind a paywall. When you buy just Nohr or Hoshido, you're essentially only buying 1/3 of it.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Nexas