Player worshipping

[NeonZ]

We could use fewer protagonists from non-royal or well-renowned groups. Like a sewer rat that works from the bottom to the top, like Drake.

I don't think that really changes anything though. Look at Radiant Dawn. You get Micaiah with tons of special points around her character, while Ike is pretty much just a "good fighter", and yet he still takes over the narrative halfway through. Micaiah has to use "dirty tactics" to keep up when they face each other in the 3rd part, and she pretty much becomes a non-entity in the last fourth of the game, almost disappearing from the scenes between chapters and base conversations, only getting some dialogue in the battles themselves. Even the goddess who was apparently talking with Micaiah her entire life is portrayed as closer to Ike for her final farewell.

The real problem here is that there's a general tendency to write the entire world spinning around the "one" protagonist. I actually liked "main hero + avatar" set up since it meant the focus was more spread around, even if they couldn't really get the right balance in either New Mystery or Awakening. However, by going with the avatar as the sole protagonist, we then get this situation where he seems to be the center of the world to all main playable characters. They also likely wanted him as a leader or commander from the start to justify the My Castle situation, which means that it's very likely it could become a recurring feature if they keep My Castle from now on.

How is Aqua treated in the Nohr route? I feel like she was given an appropriate amount of attention in Hoshido (ie not too much).

She generally has less focus in Norh, especially comparing the end games of each route.

[Thor Odinson]

ngl I'd prefer to just straight up play as Marx or Ryouma depending on route as Sigurd-like (minus the whole bit about being set on fire) lords as opposed to Kamui

Edited July 8, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Lawlzor96]

I don't think that really changes anything though. Look at Radiant Dawn. You get Micaiah with tons of special points around her character, while Ike is pretty much just a "good fighter", and yet he still takes over the narrative halfway through. Micaiah has to use "dirty tactics" to keep up when they face each other in the 3rd part, and she pretty much becomes a non-entity in the last fourth of the game, almost disappearing from the scenes between chapters and base conversations, only getting some dialogue in the battles themselves. Even the goddess who was apparently talking with Micaiah her entire life is portrayed as closer to Ike for her final farewell.

The real problem here is that there's a general tendency to write the entire world spinning around the "one" protagonist. I actually liked "main hero + avatar" set up since it meant the focus was more spread around, even if they couldn't really get the right balance in either New Mystery or Awakening. However, by going with the avatar as the sole protagonist, we then get this situation where he seems to be the center of the world to all main playable characters. They also likely wanted him as a leader or commander from the start to justify the My Castle situation, which means that it's very likely it could become a recurring feature if they keep My Castle from now on.

True enough. I personally thought Micaiah was one of the worst characters I've played as in all the FE games I've played thus far.

[Tamanoir]

The lord is nearly always the least interresting character in their own game (Not counting Hector (or Lyn), since he's not the main focus. He was a pretty great Lord (no pun intended). FE8 did it pretty well as well thanks to Lyon.)

This was just made more extreme.

[RedMage]

Tag the spoilers.

I agree though. He has even less of a reason to forgive Kamui after all that had transpired since you destroy his army and unambiguously kill his retainers. He didn't like you before, so why would he forgive you after that? It feels like a cheap way of not making the player feel too bad over what they have just done.

I've said it numerous times before, but Kamui pretends he's going to execute her after their battle for no reason, and she forgives him without ever bringing that up again. It's a very minor thing, but one that bothers me nonetheless.

Yeah, one of my major gripes about the Nohr route.

It's pretty bad at times. I know they are trying to establish some connections in a short amount of time but even the opening scene has you waking up to see HALF the castle staff at your bedside. Waking up is a big deal when it's Kamui-sama! After that Kamui gets to meet all his siblings who dote on him (particularly his sisters) as though he's the most precious child in the world. There is some justification for this because it's Kamui's big day to leave the castle. You could handwave it if the player worship stopped there but it doesn't.

Later when the conflict escalates, Kamui becomes the center of attention again. I can see his family being heartbroken by his choice but treating it with more weight than the entirety of the war is a little absurd. It's a big thing for Kamui but I don't see why it should be such a strong motivation for the other main characters to fight. Special snowflake dragon chosen by a holy sword or not, I don't think Kamui should be the effective leader of the army when one, he's practically a foreigner (Hoshido route) and two, he has two older siblings (and a younger sibling with more combat experience). To the game's credit, they do seem to try to subvert the universal love for Kamui with your little brothers but even that fades away.

Let's not even get into the My Castle stuff for what that says about how unconditionally everyone in his army loves him...

Does the player worship make me dislike the story or character? I wouldn't say it makes it super unlikable but I feel there was wasted potential. Kamui is put into a horrible position because of his family situation but his character could have been even more tragic if he wasn't so loved by nearly everyone in the story. Imagine if the attention for Kamui in the story was about securing him as a tool and it was just a few individuals who genuinely loved him for who he is?

How is Aqua treated in the Nohr route? I feel like she was given an appropriate amount of attention in Hoshido (ie not too much).

Wasted potential indeed. Feels like there's more emphasis on fanservice than good, realistic story-telling and character development.

I'm curious about how Aqua's treated in the Nohr route too. One issue I have with picking sides between Nohr and Hoshido was that no one gave a crap about Aqua, just Kamui. She was in the same situation as Kamui. And you don't see the Nohr/Hoshido siblings fighting for her. Just, wth? It's like the whole Fates world tends to revolve around Kamui or something.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Yuina

[Taka-kun]

I have seen that this is the most consistent complaint about Kamui which I am very dissapointed with, even though I have yet to play the game and has tried to avoid story spoilers. The whole point of the game was to make choices, where you choose one side and sacrifice the other, with all the reprecussions that follow. How can a guy handle a conflict when there is no conflict when the character is present. It takes away the storytelling and character development.

One example of a developed character is Jon Snow from GoT. In a crapsack world, he is the one who actually tries to do the right thing, instead of pursuing his own interests and ignores the squabbles of power-hungry and/or vengeful factions to focus on the enemy that threatens all. Yet doing so means he is willing to save those that he and his comrades considers to be the enemy. During the series, he has done nothing (mostly) but good things and suffered hell for it, because hatred and ambitions will not simply vanish because "the hero" says so.

I like player inserts, I do, but only if they can be defined as distinct characters instead of being a generic goody two-shoes. Robin was pretty bland, yes, but even he had moments where he does the necessary thing, such as lighting up 1000 Valmese ships, packed with soldiers from stem to stern or hunting down fleeing enemies when he can (as he mentioned in his support with Severa).

[Nanima]

I like player inserts, I do, but only if they can be defined as distinct characters instead of being a generic goody two-shoes. Robin was pretty bland, yes, but even he had moments where he does the necessary thing, such as lighting up 1000 Valmese ships, packed with soldiers from stem to stern or hunting down fleeing enemies when he can (as he mentioned in his support with Severa).

Yeah, but he is never really called out on it. Burning those ships is portrayed as a heroic act of tactical brilliance. No mention is made of the horrors the enemy soldiers went through.

I think the whole player worshipping thing would be more bearable if it was actually a result of our own decisions. In Dragon Age for example we get praised when we do good things, and called out if we do stupid/evil things. And even well-intentioned decisions can turn out really badly, but they are our decisions.

Fates may have hyped the whole choice thing, but looking at it objectively it's pretty laughable. One choice determined mostly by what version you buy beforehand and-

A few avoidable deaths thrown in here and there

-but nothing of substance. Nothing that gives us true agency or the chance to built Kamui as anything other than generic RPG Hero #298454.

This is what makes the worshipping feel the most displaced. If there were more decisions for our actions and more chances to anger people and drive them away from the team, it wouldn't feel all too bad to receive adoration for doing really well.

But I doubt FE will ever reach those levels of player freedom. (Most) Jrpgs never really do, because it's not seen as very appealing in japanese culture.

[Tamanoir]

Yeah, but he is never really called out on it. Burning those ships is portrayed as a heroic act of tactical brilliance. No mention is made of the horrors the enemy soldiers went through.

I think the whole player worshipping thing would be more bearable if it was actually a result of our own decisions. In Dragon Age for example we get praised when we do good things, and called out if we do stupid/evil things. And even well-intentioned decisions can turn out really badly, but they are our decisions.

Fates may have hyped the whole choice thing, but looking at it objectively it's pretty laughable. One choice determined mostly by what version you buy beforehand and-

A few avoidable deaths thrown in here and there

-but nothing of substance. Nothing that gives us true agency or the chance to built Kamui as anything other than generic RPG Hero #298454.

This is what makes the worshipping feel the most displaced. If there were more decisions for our actions and more chances to anger people and drive them away from the team, it wouldn't feel all too bad to receive adoration for doing really well.

But I doubt FE will ever reach those levels of player freedom. (Most) Jrpgs never really do, because it's not seen as very appealing in japanese culture.

That's also one of the things that made Tactics Ogre LUCT so brillant. (well, that and making great villains, and... Well, like nearly everything.)

When you do the dramatic choice, you really chose to do it. If you wants to slaughter everyone inyour path there will be repercussion, and everyone will ends up hating you. Everything that happens is a consequence of your actions.

Even Katiua calls him out and ends up turning her back against him.

[Sunwoo]

Self-inserts and avatar characters in general can be hard to work with in video games. On the one hand, you get the people who would riot if you can't do things like marry who you wanted (including your siblings) and if the other characters didn't basically worship you. You'll also get people who want realistic characterization above player worship. But you'll also get people who get upset that Kamui is too "bland" because they're written as a self-insert character, but if you give them TOO much personality you get people who are upset because they can't imagine "their" Kamui saying the things they do! There really is no win situation here.

In a way, could it be that putting avatar-type characters in the last three installments of FE have made the games more heavy on the player worship? In FE7, we had a tactician who was not playable and even optional if you started on Eliwood and Hector's mode. Sure, the characters praised you and stuff, but the second half of the story was written so it could've been done without a tactician. I haven't played FE12, but I heard some people say that Kris (and Katarina) kind of stole the spotlight from established characters. I won't actually get into it more than that, and people can correct me if I'm wrong.

In FE13, the only person who really ever suspects Robin is Frederick, but he seems to come around really fast … like in chapter 4 or so if I'm not mistaken. For a guy who's known as "Frederick the wary", it's not portrayed well. Nor does he show any of this supposed wariness to the other two Plegians on the team, Henry and Tharja. In this case, Robin seems to be the oddball in getting suspected by Frederick. But ultimately, at the end of the story, everyone thinks that you are worth Grima possibly coming back in some distant future if you didn't sacrifice yourself. That's … ridiculous. But even the future children, including Lucina, are totally cool with it. I thought that was pretty bad.

To be fair to FE14, I didn't understand a lot of the story on my own. And Takumi (even if he's the only one) is more competent than Frederick and seems to suspect you for longer, even a bit in Kamui's supports with him. But the whole "two families fighting over you" thing is made more ridiculous when you realize that Aqua exists. Did the Nohr siblings even remember, or care, that she was ever in their lives? Do the Hoshido siblings care when she follows Kamui to Nohr? Not to mention that it is not necessary for all the important characters to forgive Kamui.

[spoiler=Hoshido and Nohr endgame spoilers]I can understand Elise, at least, not being angry with Kamui. I'm not completely sure what I think about Leon suddenly being all "I don't hate you, you're still my sibling and I love you" after you kick his ass, but like I said earlier I can still sort of see it happening. And Camilla just sort of seems in a way broken after you pick Hoshido. However, I don't think it was necessary for Marx to forgive you so readily. At the most, maybe a grudging sort of forgiveness or a vow to just let this go and be at peace, as Elise wanted, could have worked. He was pretty damn angry at you, after all.

As for Nohr side, from what I've heard from other people, Ryouma and Takumi die as a result of Kamui deciding to invade Hoshido in the last eight or so chapters? (Correct me if I'm wrong here, please.) Sure, they spared the sisters and their subordinates, but their actions still led to the deaths of both brothers? Not to mention that something just feels wrong about Ryouma committing seppuku to "save" Kamui. And why the hell did both Ryouma and Takumi have to forgive them, if either one? It just seems to make less sense here than in Nohr. "Oh, Kamui, I know you invaded us for who knows why and you led to my brother and me dying as well as our subordinates and our army, but we totally forgive you." Huh?

I think this was one of the main reservations I had about getting a player avatar again in FE14, that the plot was going to revolve around them and character interactions be written to "comfort" the player no matter what happens. It's honestly frustrating to me, as a writer, and I hope IS will get this self-insert thing down SOMEDAY.

[Taka-kun]

Yeah, but he is never really called out on it. Burning those ships is portrayed as a heroic act of tactical brilliance. No mention is made of the horrors the enemy soldiers went through.

I think the whole player worshipping thing would be more bearable if it was actually a result of our own decisions. In Dragon Age for example we get praised when we do good things, and called out if we do stupid/evil things. And even well-intentioned decisions can turn out really badly, but they are our decisions.

Fates may have hyped the whole choice thing, but looking at it objectively it's pretty laughable. One choice determined mostly by what version you buy beforehand and-

A few avoidable deaths thrown in here and there

-but nothing of substance. Nothing that gives us true agency or the chance to built Kamui as anything other than generic RPG Hero #298454.

This is what makes the worshipping feel the most displaced. If there were more decisions for our actions and more chances to anger people and drive them away from the team, it wouldn't feel all too bad to receive adoration for doing really well.

But I doubt FE will ever reach those levels of player freedom. (Most) Jrpgs never really do, because it's not seen as very appealing in japanese culture.

Yeah, that's true. It would have been better if somewhat was at least disturbed by Robin's actions and question their doings, like what Gaius and Libra did in their support and DLC conversations.

The Mass Effect I believe is also a good example. As Shepherd, you could go full renegade and kill people left and right, yet you did it as part of your duty. His/her ruthlessness disturbs people yet it actually contributes to combating the threat. The closest character FE has to that kind of character is Alvis from FE4.

[Ghostlander]

Oh my god. Morrowind. Might be THE best game of all time. I love it. I'm gonna go play it right now with the 2015 visual mods.

[Soapbar]

I'd be fine with it if we actually had done something to earn worship. I can't speak on Fates story but even in Skyrim, even when your identified as Dragonborn, people are still skeptical and you still have to earn respect with either the Imperial Army or the Stormwind Rebellion. Same thing goes to games like Deus Ex and Armored Core, you still have to earn the worship by actually doing shit and rising up the ranks.

I'd prefer that Player Worship just be dropped entirely. In System Shock 2, Polito never said "omg your so amazing, your like a god", and she was actually rather bitchy (as shown when you reach the Sub-Conduit that goes into Engineering where she tells you to not waste time patting yourself on the back and to move your ass) and people were fine with that. Of course

Polito turns out to be SHODAN, who is the secondary antagonist of the game, so it might be a bad example.

And In Dragon Age every character has personal ideals and if you did something that went against them they'd call you out on it and people were still just fine with that. I don't see why Player Worship needs to be a thing because it seems that the only people it would appeal to are twats and hardcore shippers.

[Abysswalker25]

Given Kamui is a prince, might be why they are generally respected by whatever faction they side with. I mean, would you walk up to royalty and say "Hey, you fucking suck."? However, from what I've seen barring some exceptions, the side you don't join with takes it pretty badly.

Take the Nohr family for instance. You've lived with them most of your life, so naturally they care about you more. But I think they can understand why you might've joined with the family you've been taken away from. Plus Garon trying to kill you doesn't help things. All of the siblings take it pretty hard because you were actually more like family to them than with your hoshido family since you grew up with them. Leon wants to hate you but he can't which fits his personality of 'cold but caring'. Camilla and Elise are pretty broken up over it but they even wish you luck. Marx is the most duty bound of the Nohr family and as such he is the most resolved to try and kill you.

On the other hand, you have your Hoshido family. They are pretty hostile with you if you don't side with them and Ryouma takes this further than most in the third route, and to some degree the Nohr one. Takumi has a realistic approach to it, which I can appreciate but if you even side with Hoshido and prove yourself he still acts like an ass for a while. Again, understandable. Sakura is just super idealistic and kind hearted. Hinoka is interesting. It is said she began training when Kamui was taken away and on chapter 6 if you side with Nohr and defeat her she laments about "up until now.. what have I been fighting for?" and generally has trouble accepting that the one she has wanted to believe she was fighting for ends up betraying her. I don't think she can cope with that fact very well. I don't know about the stuff that happens later on but Hoshido takes it more personally than Nohr if you don't join with them.

Ultimately there are a lot of ways to look at the story. I try to be more optimistic about it since theres already a lot of people harping on every little detail.

[Icy Toast]

Takumi is definitely my favorite sibling (aside from a lot of bad supports) for acting like a normal human being would. What I don't like is how he's portrayed as an asshole for not instantly trusting Kamui not only by a lot of players, but by characters in the game as well.

Wait wow, the bolded part is a joke right? If characters in-game are mad at Takumi for not instantly trusting Kamui, then that would be the pinnacle of sillyness. Poor Takumi... the only one who has common sense regarding the trusting part, actually gets punished for it. Let's just all hold hands and sing merry songs in Fates because no-one wishes to kill each other, right? /sarcastic rant over

It wouldn't be so bad if it was just other characters telling us that Takumi is wrong for disliking the avatar. But the reality is a lot worse than that. It isn't just individual characters, it's the very narrative of the Nohr route that seems to tell us that Takumi's attitude towards Kamui is wrong. His dislike of Kamui is treated as a source of dramatic dissonance that MUST be resolved for the story to reach its conclusion, and in a rather heavy-handed way at that.

(Nohr spoilers from this point onwards)

His resentment towards the player character, despite being entirely justified when you consider that the player betrayed Hoshido and then came back with an invasion army, is quite literally taken away from him by the writers and recast into the role of a villain - the final boss even - so the player can strike it down and feel good about it. Just to be on the safe side the writers even have a dead Takumi tell us that he actually really wants us to defeat his lingering hatred, just so there can be absolutely no mistaking the fact that his feelings towards Kamui are and were in fact wrong or even evil all along, and cleansing Takumi of these feelings should indebt him to us. It's a pretty disgusting move on the part of the writers, if you ask me.

Really, I don't think there could be any better proof than this of the fact that disliking the player character without already being an obvious villain is a capital sin in the narrative of Fates and in the minds of its writers. We can't have anyone not liking us, regardless of how reasonable their motives might be. Non-worshippers must be either converted or killed, or both if they're especially bad offenders. And yeah, that bothers me.

[Frelia]

It's pretty bad at times. I know they are trying to establish some connections in a short amount of time but even the opening scene has you waking up to see HALF the castle staff at your bedside. Waking up is a big deal when it's Kamui-sama! After that Kamui gets to meet all his siblings who dote on him (particularly his sisters) as though he's the most precious child in the world. There is some justification for this because it's Kamui's big day to leave the castle. You could handwave it if the player worship stopped there but it doesn't.

Later when the conflict escalates, Kamui becomes the center of attention again. I can see his family being heartbroken by his choice but treating it with more weight than the entirety of the war is a little absurd. It's a big thing for Kamui but I don't see why it should be such a strong motivation for the other main characters to fight. Special snowflake dragon chosen by a holy sword or not, I don't think Kamui should be the effective leader of the army when one, he's practically a foreigner (Hoshido route) and two, he has two older siblings (and a younger sibling with more combat experience). To the game's credit, they do seem to try to subvert the universal love for Kamui with your little brothers but even that fades away.

Let's not even get into the My Castle stuff for what that says about how unconditionally everyone in his army loves him...

Does the player worship make me dislike the story or character? I wouldn't say it makes it super unlikable but I feel there was wasted potential. Kamui is put into a horrible position because of his family situation but his character could have been even more tragic if he wasn't so loved by nearly everyone in the story. Imagine if the attention for Kamui in the story was about securing him as a tool and it was just a few individuals who genuinely loved him for who he is?

How is Aqua treated in the Nohr route? I feel like she was given an appropriate amount of attention in Hoshido (ie not too much).

That was what I was afraid of when I heard that a new avatar character was going to be in the game. Yes some of the affections towards Kamui are completely understandable, but after a certain point the player worship has to slow down. Thank goodness for Takumi existing in this game. I wish the narrative wasn't so hard on him for not liking Kamui instantly though.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Frelia

[Thane]

That was what I was afraid of when I heard that a new avatar character was going to be in the game. Yes some of the affections towards Kamui are completely understandable, but after a certain point the player worship has to slow down. Thank goodness for Takumi existing in this game.

Don't play the Nohr route.

If you want to know why, read Icy Toast's post, which explains it far better than I ever could.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Kamui is an escapist character. People love escapist characters because they can slip into their shoes and feel good going through their story. Its like Boron said, its a fantasy. Its not so much power trip as much as wish fulfillment. These characters feel good to see because they cant do any real wrong. Despite everything, the other characters in the story are going to eventually love them. This is why Mary Sue exists. Its like candy for a reader/player to mindlessly crunch on while being entertained. Many of us (even myself included) do find ourselves loving characters that are just plain wish fulfillment. Like Link from Legend of Zelda, Lestat from the Vampire Chronicles, Harry Potter, the Shepherds of Mass Effect, Cloud Strife, etc. Many of these characters undergo development and change in some way. Like Harry Potter, not everyone does love him over the course of his story. But he is regarded as the best guy ever at the end of his story.

I think what matters here is how these stories are told. Harry Potter goes through a lot of shit to earn his happy ending. Cloud Strife may or may not be still haunted by his experiences. Robin from FE13 never changes. Kamui looks to have a similar problem. I do think this could have been remedied by dialogue trees and characters scripted to have different responses based on the option you pick. Static dialogue with a character like this makes for some big contrivances when dealing with character interaction. Only one character has an initially cold reaction to Kamui out of a cast of dozens? How come Kamui couldnt push certain characters away? Why cant i pick an option of dialogue that makes someone like Camilla balk and go "What? How can you be so heartless?" They only seem to react in such a way if Kamui only makes the one big choice. While that's fine, many people, like me wanted more than that. I wanted a true Avatar character. I wanted to choose my own adventure. My disappointment that Kamui is basically Robin is very large and real.

I dont want Mary Sue. Im a bit too old for Mary Sue. My wish fulfillment is playing as a character who will get called out on shit. Facing real consequences for being an obstinate bastage. Come close to getting murdered a million times for opening his big mouth. Characters hating him for choosing to sacrifice another character. I wanted him to get the side-eye from other characters for choosing to marry his adoptive sister. Someone getting up and walking away when he sat down to eat with the army. I wanted my avatar. So i can understand the disappointment regarding Kamui.

[Abysswalker25]

Maybe if they ever decide to make a Wii U game?

[Frelia]

It wouldn't be so bad if it was just other characters telling us that Takumi is wrong for disliking the avatar. But the reality is a lot worse than that. It isn't just individual characters, it's the very narrative of the Nohr route that seems to tell us that Takumi's attitude towards Kamui is wrong. His dislike of Kamui is treated as a source of dramatic dissonance that MUST be resolved for the story to reach its conclusion, and in a rather heavy-handed way at that.

(Nohr spoilers from this point onwards)

His resentment towards the player character, despite being entirely justified when you consider that the player betrayed Hoshido and then came back with an invasion army, is quite literally taken away from him by the writers and recast into the role of a villain - the final boss even - so the player can strike it down and feel good about it. Just to be on the safe side the writers even have a dead Takumi tell us that he actually really wants us to defeat his lingering hatred, just so there can be absolutely no mistaking the fact that his feelings towards Kamui are and were in fact wrong or even evil all along, and cleansing Takumi of these feelings should indebt him to us. It's a pretty disgusting move on the part of the writers, if you ask me.

Really, I don't think there could be any better proof than this of the fact that disliking the player character without already being an obvious villain is a capital sin in the narrative of Fates and in the minds of its writers. We can't have anyone not liking us, regardless of how reasonable their motives might be. Non-worshippers must be either converted or killed, or both if they're especially bad offenders. And yeah, that bothers me.

Thank you for explaining how Takumi's dislike towards Kamui is treated in the Nohr route. I already watched the Nohr route, but I didn't understand it fully especially with Takumi. Having other characters tell another character that their valid dislike towards a self-insert or avatar character is wrong is one thing, but to actually go this far is much worse. Considering what happens in the Nohr route like you mentioned that move is especially bad. It also doesn't help that it seems to ignore why Takumi had those feelings towards Kamui in the first place. Such wasted potential. :(

Edited July 9, 2015 by Frelia

[Loki Laufeyson]

Maybe if they ever decide to make a Wii U game?

They could have done it with this one, the dialogue trees. If it took up too much space, perhaps the fluff features would have had to be cut or minimized. Im ok with the fluff and fanservice, but yeah i would trade it for what i wanted for Kamui. And the dialogue trees would raise support levels depending on the answer. Maybe one day...

[Vitezen]

Little off-topic but this issue reminds me of Persona 3 and its differences compared to 4. In both games, it was possible to achieve a level of intimacy with the people around you that is almost superhuman. But Persona 3 actually portrays it in a much more realistic way. If you max all of your social links, it becomes obvious that you aren't being entirely truthful; you tell people exactly what they want to hear, and do whatever they want as long as it gets them to like you more. While in P4 you feel as if you're Jesus simply by standing there and having people worship you, in P3 you have the same result only through dedication to manipulating everyone.

There is no sense of conflict or suspense in any interaction the main character has because you already know everyone loves them or will shortly. Obviously, with conflict and change being a principle aspect of story, you can't possibly have quality writing with it missing.

[Tamanoir]

They could have done it with this one, the dialogue trees. If it took up too much space, perhaps the fluff features would have had to be cut or minimized. Im ok with the fluff and fanservice, but yeah i would trade it for what i wanted for Kamui. And the dialogue trees would raise support levels depending on the answer. Maybe one day...

Without dialogue tree, or other specific way to influence the game, Kamui being a self-insert is simply a lie.

He's the hero of the story, but have nothing to do with us.

I mean,Owain/Odin, for me at least, is a far better self-insert than Robin/Kamui (If I had Dragon Powers, you bet I'd act exactly that way at every occasion)

[Blue Sun]

Kamui is an escapist character. People love escapist characters because they can slip into their shoes and feel good going through their story. Its like Boron said, its a fantasy. Its not so much power trip as much as wish fulfillment. These characters feel good to see because they cant do any real wrong. Despite everything, the other characters in the story are going to eventually love them. This is why Mary Sue exists. Its like candy for a reader/player to mindlessly crunch on while being entertained. Many of us (even myself included) do find ourselves loving characters that are just plain wish fulfillment. Like Link from Legend of Zelda, Lestat from the Vampire Chronicles, Harry Potter, the Shepherds of Mass Effect, Cloud Strife, etc. Many of these characters undergo development and change in some way. Like Harry Potter, not everyone does love him over the course of his story. But he is regarded as the best guy ever at the end of his story.

I think what matters here is how these stories are told. Harry Potter goes through a lot of shit to earn his happy ending. Cloud Strife may or may not be still haunted by his experiences. Robin from FE13 never changes. Kamui looks to have a similar problem. I do think this could have been remedied by dialogue trees and characters scripted to have different responses based on the option you pick. Static dialogue with a character like this makes for some big contrivances when dealing with character interaction. Only one character has an initially cold reaction to Kamui out of a cast of dozens? How come Kamui couldnt push certain characters away? Why cant i pick an option of dialogue that makes someone like Camilla balk and go "What? How can you be so heartless?" They only seem to react in such a way if Kamui only makes the one big choice. While that's fine, many people, like me wanted more than that. I wanted a true Avatar character. I wanted to choose my own adventure. My disappointment that Kamui is basically Robin is very large and real.

I dont want Mary Sue. Im a bit too old for Mary Sue. My wish fulfillment is playing as a character who will get called out on shit. Facing real consequences for being an obstinate bastage. Come close to getting murdered a million times for opening his big mouth. Characters hating him for choosing to sacrifice another character. I wanted him to get the side-eye from other characters for choosing to marry his adoptive sister. Someone getting up and walking away when he sat down to eat with the army. I wanted my avatar. So i can understand the disappointment regarding Kamui.

This is pretty much why I wish people would stop caring about wish-fulfillment. You can end up very much disappointed and find your opinions clashing with others if the product is not directly advertised just for you, and I really wish wish-fulfillment advertisement would just stop. Leave Robin and Kamui be, just don't call them an extension of the player's will, especially if they're meant to be their own characters. The only effective way to make Robin, Kamui, or anyone a perfect wish-fulfillment character is to turn them into a complete blank slate who is solely a puppet of the entertainee (this is only really possible in video games and interactive stories). With that said, I openly have little care for characters who I feel are only meant to convey the entertainee's thoughts and will (bordering on disgust that some people need them around in the first place), and I hate for something to have to "cater" to me with the prospect that I make a difference to make it feel special. It isn't, anyone can pander and it's easy to fall for that trap; it just feels hollow and more like brown-nosing. The wish-fulfillment ironically just reeks of being unrealistic whereas virtually everything else is fine with me. I'll admit, a true wish-fulfillment character is a very enticing little tool that reels people in, and without that feel many people wouldn't bother with a work if they didn't feel like they were going to be entertained.

Bottom line is I don't want someone else to waste their talents on catering to me and making me feel like I'm so great. I don't need that gratification.

Edited July 8, 2015 by BlueSunStudios

[Tamanoir]

This is pretty much why I wish people would stop caring about wish-fulfillment. You can end up very much disappointed and find your opinions clashing with others if the product is not directly advertised just for you, and I really wish wish-fulfillment advertisement would just stop. Leave Robin and Kamui be, just don't call them an extension of the player's will, especially if they're meant to be their own characters. The only effective way to make Robin, Kamui, or anyone a perfect wish-fulfillment character is to turn them into a complete blank slate who is solely a puppet of the entertainee (this is only really possible in video games and interactive stories). With that said, I openly have little care for characters who I feel are only meant to convey the entertainee's thoughts and will (bordering on disgust that some people need them around in the first place), and I hate for something to have to "cater" to me with the prospect that I make a difference to make it feel special. It isn't, anyone can pander and it's easy to fall for that trap; it just feels hollow and more like brown-nosing. The wish-fulfillment ironically just reeks of being unrealistic whereas virtually everything else is fine with me. I'll admit, a true wish-fulfillment character is a very enticing little tool that reels people in, and without that feel many people wouldn't bother with a work if they didn't feel like they were going to be entertained.

Bottom line is I don't want someone else to waste their talents on catering to me and making me feel like I'm so great. I don't need that gratification.

Yeah, I prefer interresting character to those who try to offer me some wish-fulfillment (given one of my favourite character is an loud mouth armour-wielding mage girl from some unknown SNES RPG).

Besides, I have nothing against nothing escapism in itself, but why staying with such boring ideas.

I don't want to imagine myself as some perfect person.

There's so many thing they could make us experiment, so that's just such a waste.

It's the only thing I may have against this trend.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Tamanoir

[Shadow Knight]

Tbh, I don't mind player worship in Rpgs. I mean, if I'm paying 40 to 60 bucks on something than I'd prefer to be treated good, especially considering the fact that most of the time it's you pulling the strings and coming up with these great strategies. It's you doing the work, not the characters themselves so credit should go where credit is due.

But....

It can get to the point where it harms the other characters in the story, in other words the classic Mary Sue effect. For example Persona 4 is a fantastic Rpg with great characters and an engaging story. But it also contains a ton of hero worship and the characters suffer a lot from it. For example, Yosuke, or Brosuke as I call him is one of my favorite characters and is essentially your right hand man in the game. Except he's also used as a foil in order to make the main character look good and he oftentimes comes across as whiny and pathetic. The other thing to consider here is that while you are in fact the Leader of the gang it is nigh impossible to handle a hard dungeon on your own without the entire team which is what makes the game great as each character brings a necessary element to the table.

Fire Emblem is going to be a large challenge for IS moving into the future because it has this issue on roids. over 30 characters with each one having a certain class set and fulfilling a certain role not to mention hundreds of support conversations and a dedicated fanbase that scrutinizes everything.

But customization is simply the future. More and more games give players the option to create their own characters or at least customize them in a certain way. And while the start has been rocky I think this is the correct direction for FE to take. We will just have to weather the storm until IS refines it.

But from what I have seen I'm not very impressed with Kamui at this point. He seems like the classic goody-two shoes character who can do no wrong and suffers based on the decisions of others rather than those made by himself.